<Boneshatter has been nerfed of course.>

I do not agree with boneshatter being nerfed I have a capped empath with no (zero) lores and she one shot kills with bone shatter regularly

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

TGO01

And this right here is why I think Rapid Fire is fine as is. My empath decimates everything with 1115+240. 1115 is already a pretty powerful spell but now you have a sidekick casting the spell as well with increased CS? Forget about it!

Ignoring the fact one is a level 15 spell and the other is level 40, I do consider both to be similar in concept (big powerup spells). The difference is that 240 cost 40 mana per use, lasts 30 seconds (only 27 of which are usable due to the castRT from casting 240), and it only provides for a chance to multicast (base chance is 60%). Best case scenario, assuming you recast a spell every 3 seconds and don't get interrupted (disabled, move, etc), and it flares on every cast (unlikely), it's good for 9 casts. The chance for it to triple cast with 1115 is only 4% (that's if the double cast triggers; overall, it's a 2.4% chance to actually get a triple cast).

Compared to the existing 515, which you can stack outside of combat so there is no use time (castRT) or mana cost for using it while hunting, it can last the entire hunt, and allows you to spam unlimited number of attacks. You can easily get 3-5 casts of any spell within the same window you cast 1115 once. So even with 240 kicking it, you cast the spell twice while the wizard will cast any spell of their choice more than double your casts. Under new changes to 515, you'll be forced to cast it during combat, it'll last for 60 seconds (57 which are usable), and it'll allow the wizard to cast a spell every 1 second, so it's still casting 3 spells in the same time you're typically casting 2 and their spell (515) will last twice as long (vs. 240). You can optionally ignore the cooldown with an additional cost and you can mitigate it with additional training.

We could seriously consider switching 515 and 540, if wizards want to pay 40 mana per use and have it last 30 seconds.

GameMaster Estild

Anything except griffins in OTF. It was very effective in Duskruin as well.

>Compared to the existing 515, which you can stack outside of combat so there is no use time (castRT) or mana cost for using it while hunting, it can last the entire hunt, and allows you to spam unlimited number of attacks. You can easily get 3-5 casts of any spell within the same window you cast 1115 once. So even with 240 kicking it, you cast the spell twice while the wizard will cast any spell of their choice more than double your casts. Under new changes to 515, you'll be forced to cast it during combat, it'll last for 60 seconds (57 which are usable), and it'll allow the wizard to cast a spell every 1 second, so it's still casting 3 spells in the same time you're typically casting 2 and their spell (515) will last twice as long (vs. 240). You can optionally ignore the cooldown with an additional cost and you can mitigate it with additional training.

Except the difference is 240 provides a massive CS boost on the second/third spirit casts. This, combined with the fact that excessive warding margin is far more likely to result in unavoidable, instant death than excessive bolt AS vs. DS from unaimed bolts, means that it essentially guarantees a kill given the right training.

>Best case scenario, assuming you recast a spell every 3 seconds and don't get interrupted (disabled, move, etc), and it flares on every cast (unlikely), it's good for 9 casts.

Wizards have to rely on Rapid Fire to get the same "power up" effect, yet they are forced to cast more times even if you think it's excessive to result in the same killed creature. It can take a wizard 4-8 bolts to match the effectiveness of the one 240/1115 or 240/317 combo. So what you're saying is for those 9 casts, empaths and clerics are free to potentially get 9 instant kills if they train correctly and are lucky, but you want to massively cut down on the number of creatures killed by wizards per "power up" cycle (and time) than the other pures can.

The additional spirit slayer casts are also mana free, while Rapid Fire still requires the full mana cost per bolt, so essentially there is no "power up" other than the wizard being able to expend the same mana supply more quickly to kill before they are killed first. 240 also has no cooldown, much less any additional mana costs, despite being a much higher level spell.

I'm not advocating for the nerfing of any other spell, but this relentless persistence on nerfing all wizard spells to oblivion because of perceived overpoweredness does not fly at all when all of these equally, or more, effective combat methods exist.

>If the real problem with Rapid Fire is cheap 901 spam then why not just make it so any attack spell cast with Rapid Fire costs at least 3 or 4 mana. Yeah it'll screw with the 901 spam but it won't totally gut the spell.

I agree with this. Rapid Fire 901 is annoying screen scroll, so you could easily set a 4 mana requirement for each cast. In reality, 4-8 bolts are no more screen scroll than a 240/1115 or 240/317 wave.

Additionally, 240 may cost 40 mana, but it gives you 135-153 mana's worth of the most powerful CS-based spells empaths and clerics have, for no additional extra cost. That is why those empath and cleric spells work in combat, not because 519 is overpowered. I can live with no stacking of 515 so all of the mana costs are expended in combat times, but in that case we should be able to access it for no cooldown period or additional mana cost (that we're already paying to achieve the killed creatures) as the other spells have.

LADYFLEUR

Except the difference is 240 provides a massive CS boost on the second/third spirit casts. This, combined with the fact that excessive warding margin is far more likely to result in unavoidable, instant death than excessive bolt AS vs. DS from unaimed bolts, means that it essentially guarantees a kill given the right training.

And based upon the very numbers provided in this thread by Taverkin, bolts can easily kill their targets within 3-4 casts. So during that same 3 second window, the target is dead either way. This all is assuming that the spirit slayer does kick in, which only happens 60% (base) of the time. Rapid Fire works with every cast 100% of the time.

LADYFLEUR

It can take a wizard 4-8 bolts to match the effectiveness of the one 240/1115 or 240/317 combo.

Actually, it's 3-4 casts. http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/1765 And that's in the Scatter. In the other capped hunting grounds, it's even smaller.

LADYFLEUR

The additional spirit slayer casts are also mana free, while Rapid Fire still requires the full mana cost per bolt, so essentially there is no "power up" other than the wizard being able to expend the same mana supply more quickly to kill before they are killed first. 240 also has no cooldown, much less any additional mana costs, despite being a much higher level spell.

Yep, and it cost 40 mana to cast during a hunt. Each spell has their pros and cons, but you're mistaken if you think one is superior to the other. Again, completely ignoring the 25 level gap between the spells. Like I said, if you want 515 to cost 40 mana per cast, last 30 seconds (refreshable), lower castRT to 1 second and have no cooldown, it's a possibility.

GameMaster Estild

>>How about we don't nerf ANYONE and just let people have fun? You know, more fun and less tedium? All of the proposed are so unnecessary.

Pretty much this exactly.

I work for a development company that had a task force work consistently on the implementation of a new technology for the better part of a year for a Science Facility. They developed the new facility, which failed miserably because none of the end users one agreed with the way it changed the product of the work, and we ended up saying, "Okay, back to the drawing board." Clearly the task force DID NOT get enough input from the end users up front before they began development, and therein lay the problem. While it frustrated many of the people on the task force, they realized they had an inferior product. Why? Because they didn't listen to the need of the end users. It ended up costing us a very valuable client.

And here's why I think Simutronic's development team has done something eerily similar: They are being REACTIVE rather than PROACTIVE.

From my standpoint, it looks like this:

SIMU: "Hey guys, we just gave Sorcs a bunch of cool boosts during HSN! To follow up, here's a reasonably cool spell in 950, here's a nerf to Rapidfire, here's a large nerf to Immolation, and here's a complete nerf to Haste. Also, you'll have to tack on a lot of expensive lores with TPs you don't have to see any additional benefits to a lot of your spells. This means until you're way post-cap, which most of you aren't, it will be much more difficult to be a Wizard."
PLAYERS: "Wow. Well, that completely eliminates the viability of my War Mages, my young mages, and essentially makes my extremely expensive gear useless, not to mention all the new gear I'll have to spend coin on because I'll have to completely revamp my skill set."
SIMU: "<no mention about compensation for new stats, lowered lore costs, or compensation for years spent acquiring the gear high-level mage> It should be obvious why Haste is OP!"
PLAYERS:"Not really. Maybe you can be more specific, please?"
SIMU: "<vague answer> Trust us."
PLAYERS: "Maybe you can tell us WHO thinks it's OP?"
SIMU: "<no answer>"
PLAYERS: "No seriously, why nerf us so much? It seems rather clear that Wizards can be outhunted by multiple other classes."
SIMU: "Well, it's up to you guys to suggest things!"[/i]

The last interaction sounded to me like the death knell of Wizards.

My suggestion would be put to put further nerfing on hold, realize you have the inferior product like the task force at my company did, be PROACTIVE about garnering input from the obviously concerned community instead of REACTIVE because you're defending yourselves against some pretty obvious flaws in development.

Please, please go back to the drawing board and get some players on board as the end users. It is so painfully clear that the majority of Wizard seemed 910'd by the proposed changes and how they fall so far from being a desirable outcome for the profession we love to play so much.

>Please no on the 40 mana/30 sec refresh, lol

Care to expand on this? lol

Read the red guys comment he said in jest.
Just an elf about town...

<What do you hunt? Bone Shatter didn't seem to work too well for me in the Rift which is why I started to use Wither.>

Nelemar....wither for sentries and defenders
You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

Estild can be joking, but I think a lot of wizards would be happy with a far less harsh tweak to Rapid Fire (and haste for that matter) along with a subsequent move to higher spell slots.

Drop the duration, make it non-stackable, self-cast only, non-refreshable, and cost double+ the mana. Leave everything else alone.

Same with Haste. Drop the base duration, keep the other-cast penalties in place, move it into 515's old slot. Leave everything else alone.

>I say this hopefully without you interpreting it as a pejorative, but it's truly mind-boggling how you consistent ask for things that make hunting less appealing for 99% of the game's population.

IMO a fun game is a well designed game with internal consistency. People are correct in saying that it is inconsistent to say rapidfire is OP but not 240. 240 is a really neat spell, but it should not be in constant use, it is a game breaking ability. A cooldown is appropriate.

When Gandalf fought the Balrog he had to break out some pretty strong magic, not his everyday magic. Limit break combo quality stuff. That is what 240 is. It is your Ferrari, not your daily driver. Use should not be common.

We see this design paradigm with spells like 1150, 350, and soon 950, extremely cool, extremely powerful, extremely limited uses. 240 easily fits in with these other spells.

>And based upon the very numbers provided in this thread by Taverkin, bolts can easily kill their targets within 3-4 casts. So during that same 3 second window, the target is dead either way. This all is assuming that the spirit slayer does kick in, which only happens 60% (base) of the time. Rapid Fire works with every cast 100% of the time.

Sure, if the person using 240 was using it unnecessarily. Obviously if an equivalent level wizard could have killed it in 3-4 casts, so could the empath or cleric without using 240. The benefit to 240 is being able to perform amazing feats of offensive magic you could not do otherwise, which include taking on a higher volume of creatures, such as in invasions. You should see the craziness that happens when you do 240+111 with a well trained caster in a room full of invasion critters. It also allows you to hit critters out of your level range other pures couldn't hope to touch.

The spell is clearly powerful enough to be put into that group of spells that are limited by cooldowns or daily limits. Its turn will come.

2.) The vocal minority of this forum does not come close to representing the majority of players. If you read back the past couple hundred posts, it's really just from a handful of people. There also have even been a number of players who have stated they understand the need for these changes.

I beg to differ Sir. It is not a vocal minority that is concerned over the proposed changes. If you want to try and justify the decisions because a minority just willingly go along with the proposals, then that is a bit odd. Just because a few get on here and say come on all you whiney babys, give the GM's a chance so we can see what they can do, does not make it ok. Many of us have played games that have been destroyed because game representatives ruin a good thing. Gemstone IV is not the only game many of us have played. Speaking for myself, I have seen at least four major games go down the tubes because overzealous game reps deemed changes necessary for the "better" of the game. Don't make a comment that can't be backed up with facts or statistics.

I still don't understand why all of this was ok up until now. What has happened that has caused someone in the Gemstone group to say, "You know what, the game is broken because of wizards and we better change it now or the game itself will fall"?

Let me be clear to you Sir/Mam, I am not a whiner. I am not wanting to have an advantage over everyone else. I am a paying customer that enjoys what Gemstone has to offer me today and in the past. My life is not tied up in roleplaying in Gemstone like many others do. I am interested in combat to level my characters, and merchants. That is MY fun. You take away the combat enjoyment that I get from my accounts and I am no longer happy. I have noticed my playing time has already dropped off because I am dreading what is coming. I have greatly enjoyed my time coming back to Gemstone and hope to continue to do that. I pay a lot money for my accounts and Gemstone events and will continue to do so as long as I feel like I am getting a good product. If you guys don't care about losing peoples money and are wanting to support this system with some ideological revenue, then so be it. Being an ideologue doesn't pay the bills.

>Not to name names in a negative light, but people of the ilk of Krakii/Aspen/An Elf About Town who don't seem to have capped War Mages or those who run across a hunting party throwing 506 out willy-nilly and say, "Hey, they're hunting faster than me, NO FAIR!" I can say the same thing with huge crit shot kills from Empaths/Sorcs/Snipers/Ambushers/Bards. Honestly, it seems like most of those agreeing with the need for changes don't take into account the need for Haste as a defensive mechanism (dumbing down War Griffin-induced RT, minotaurs rolling in the room all in your face, etc.)

Hey hey hey now.. I have specifically not said a single thing about warmages other than that the haste change has been coming, it was announced long ago, and so arguing with GMs about to please not do it is pointless. Other ideas are needed. I also specifically said I've not played a warmage so couldn't really comment on their feasibility with or without haste. I did, specifically, repeatedly, comment on the viability of bolting as a hunting tool, which I am completely qualified to comment on as a player of a a hardcore bolting sorcerer, a bolting empath, and three bolting wizards.

I also posted several ideas for upgrades to wizard spells, including a self-cast weaponfire that'd give every warmage a flare on every weapon hit, that would stack with other properties of their weapon. A 100% flare rate on top of other flares/weighting/blessing/etc would go a long way to mitigate the loss of 100% haste IMO.

So please don't group me in with the elf, you're going to ruin my good reputation (no offense elf, its just the ears...). Krakii's cool though.

2.) The vocal minority of this forum does not come close to representing the majority of players. If you read back the past couple hundred posts, it's really just from a handful of people. There also have even been a number of players who have stated they understand the need for these changes.

GameMaster Estild

This assumption goes both ways. I would wager a majority of people are unaware of either the proposed changes or uneducated in the mechanical impact they may have until it reaches a point where it impacts their current style which will be far too late to provide relevant, actionable input. This is very similar to Telecom removing unlimited data plans and justifying by saying the "average user" only uses 2 Gigs of data so it shouldn't impact you. Well, that is until you go over that 2 Gig cap and then the company is more than happy to charge you for another Gig more. In this case, by the time they realize what they gave up based on their average play-style, the system will be inflexible thus potentially negatively impacting their enjoyment.

And based upon the very numbers provided in this thread by Taverkin, bolts can easily kill their targets within 3-4 casts. So during that same 3 second window, the target is dead either way. This all is assuming that the spirit slayer does kick in, which only happens 60% (base) of the time. Rapid Fire works with every cast 100% of the time.

ESTILD

But at 1x it's 86%.

I realize this is pointless to point out. Because Clerics and Empaths are your biological children while Wizards are the red-headed step children who can be smacked around.

But there's not a lot of difference between 100% and 86%.

>The spell's effectiveness is not limited, at all, by mana, really.

I literally just showed you how the spell is literally limited by mana.

Literally.

>If you have enough critters together you will fry several times over before you run out of mana (speaking of a capped caster)

The horror of this spell being used in such a manner in a very situational setting.

>It isn't just cleaning out an invasion (or warcamp) room of critters all 20 levels under you like a sorcerer can do with mass evil eye (which requires a very high warding margin). It's cleaning out an invasion (or warcamp) room of critters all 20 levels above you.

Or 1030, or 111, or 518, or 635.

>That fact cannot be disputed, to cast the sheer number of 317's or 1115's without 240 that you can cast with 240 would cost more mana, even when you add in the 40.

Can't be disputed huh? And "sheer number"? At most it's 9 casts.

I hunt with 1115.

Again at most I'm going to cast 9 spells with 240 up. That's absolute most, assuming no lag and I manage to cast the next spell right as the cooldown is up. That means the spirit will cast at most 135 mana worth of spells. Minus the 40 for the cost of the spell and we're looking at 95 mana. Now, sure, an unlimited number of critters, no lag with the game or between command inputs, not taking the time to skin/loot each critter, it's saving me 95 mana.

Throw in looking for a critter to kill, skinning/looting critter, looking for another critter to kill, lag, stuns, roundtimes incurred from critter attacks or regular movement through areas and that 95 "free" mana quickly dwindles. Yes, it's a nice spell, but it's not this free mana killing machine you're making it out to be.

>One day it will receive a downtweak in some form, a cooldown would be the most appropriate.

I really do think you're pulling my leg and don't honestly think this spell needs a nerf.

Hell I'll concede that rapid fire needs a change. But that doesn't mean I like the proposed version. It sounds like a huge mana-sink. Basically, haste for spells at 3x the price. Which is pretty foul when you consider that bolting is already very mana expensive.

I much prefer the version Tav penciled out with a % to double cast related to the power of the spell. To me, that's a much more interesting and beneficial spell since it actually helps deal with the inefficiencies inherent to the combat form.

As for haste, I've yet to hear anyone come out and say hasted mages are actually overpowered. I've heard a lot of politico-style mushy mouthed stuff about 'haste was never meant have 100% uptime' and tosh like that. But if warmages were not overpowered, where does that leave them when you cut their combat effectiveness in half with huge haste nerfs?

In the gutter.

Please don't take Stone Skin away.

Chad, player of a few