>> It's too quiet around here this morning. I don't know what to do with myself.

If this keeps up I'll have to go back to playing Gemstone vs. playing Gemstone Forums. Talk about weird.

I wasn't going to say anything (and definitely don't tell Estild!) but sometime over the last few days I went from being rather sad about the ELR to being somewhat excited about it again.

Oh and you may want to rethink that whole lawn watering thing. I hear that once you do that it starts to grow, then you need to MOW your lawn. Its a no-win situation.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

You can easily tell us apart because I sign my name neater. o.O

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

@Konacon

Release another buff that benefits creatures more than players, that's worth a few pages at least :p

Or you could enlighten us with how phantom critical weighting is actually calculated on spell aiming attacks, and whether or not there's a cap on the weighting based on the target's armor.

And I have like, 5000 other mechanics questions that you can answer... since you love working on cars.

~Whirlin

540 for 30 seconds is a bit insult to injury. I mean, 2.5x mana cost, for half the duration, and a minimum RT now that we didn't have before? I don't think it's too much to ask for to only nerf it one... two ways if you're a jerk, not all 3!

~Whirlin

>You channel at a fallen crusader.
>Your mental command surges outward, echoing your need to the stray spirits nearby...
>The dull golden nimbus surrounding a fallen crusader suddenly begins to glow brightly.
>CS: +488 - TD: +351 + CvA: -2 + d100: +38 == +173
>Warding failed!
>A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a fallen crusader, plunging inward to envelop his left eye!
>[hunt]>channel #16871740
>... 15 points of damage!
>Quick strike to the face!
>Just nicked an eyelid!
>... 15 points of damage!
>Quick strike to the face!
>Just nicked an eyelid!
>... 25 points of damage!
>Decent shot to the left eye would have blinded a normal foe!
>... 25 points of damage!
>Decent shot to the left eye would have blinded a normal foe!
>Cloudy tendrils writhe throughout the crusader's form, ravaging him for 65 points of damage!
>Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>Roundtime: 3 sec.

How much lore is required to get 4 hits off of that spell?

Why is Immolate is going to have 2 hits removed and be capped at 3 hits instead of the current 5 hits, while a lower level spell is doing 4 hits, most likely without nearly as much lore requirements? Plus free double casts with a jacked up CS for 40 mana.

But clearly 519 and 515 are probelmatic. Therefore, let's move 920 to 940 and make it a carbon copy of 240 in combat in exchange for the RF/519 nerfs.

Sounds balanced, right?

But for real, can someone at Simu show us on the doll where the bad Hasted Rapid Fire Immolate wizard touched them? Because that's the only explanation that would make any sense for all these stupid nerfs while other professions have cheaper and more powerful tools and spell combinations that are deemed a-ok.

The solution isn't to nerf 240 or whatever either.

~ Methais

The number of hits doesn't create a complete picture.

DC hits what? 5 times? And it is a strong killing spell.

1030 hits twice (one raw damage, one critical cycle) and is a strong killing spell.

The number of instances of damage is only one variable out of several.

And yes, I realize this does NOT address your larger point.

Tal.

No one is using it at lv15 anyway, so that argument is largely irrelevant. It's too damn expensive until you're halfway to geezer-hood or have MA chaperones sending you mana.

If you want to move it to 540, give it +40AS/CS plus free casts 60% of the time, I'm sure many (most?) wizards would be overjoyed.

Moving it to 540 and still nerfing the @#$@ out if is crazy-talk.

I would actually be cool with this change if we could get the current 540 moved down to the 520 slot where it belongs and 520 -> 515 (belongs lower, but hey, take what we can get).

>Are there other 15th level spells that give you that kind of power boost?

215 would like to have a talk with you.

215 is too busy huddled in a corner hiding from 515. Next?

Ironically, 515 in and of itself does not give you a tangible power boost. Its what you combine it with or how you use it and milage may very. It's a class defining ability of wizards , which just like haste, only creates a problem when the abilities are ubiquitous to all other classes.

Apologies for the snarky response. Any as/ds/td/cs booster is essentially a no-op for the class that gets it, as creature defenses are balanced with the spell in mind. There's no comparison here.

515 is much more difficult to balance against, particularly in its zero second form. I don't know any other spell or ability in the game that comes even close to being able to walk in and annihilate a room, no matter how many creatures there are, in zero seconds. I am having a really difficult time understanding where folks pushing to keep it at zero seconds are coming from.

Bringing the RT down to 1 sec as proposed is still a huge power increase. I am trying to wrack my brain for a spell which is similar in power to being able to do THREE TIMES as many spell actions as you'd normally be able to. And from a 15th level spell to boot. Please guys, help me out here. Wizard spells are not 1/3 as powerful as other pure attack spells as far as I can tell.

I'd like to reiterate my support for a version of 515 that comes with double-casting, to help give it some efficiency gains. Right now it's basically a big mana-loser with no actualy power gain, just time. So, at best, it helps survival by not being in front of critters as long. At worst it's a mana vortex.

515 is the worst 15th level spell in the game.

115 gives you a second chance to ward any spell you fail to ward. This is actually pretty awesome, especially for warriors and rogues and monks, all of which have access to this spell.

215, heroism. Come on. Hands down one of the best spells in the entire game. IN THE ENTIRE GAME.

315...well okay. Shut up! It has its uses.

415, an awesome CS based spells that rogues and warriors can use. Rogues and warriors need their CS spells.

615 is very versatile and versatility is key in this game.

715, see above.

915, well okay I take it back, 915 is the worst 15th level spell in the game followed by 515. Of course they both belong to wizards.

1015, -40TD plus a slow effect? AWESOME!

1115, wither, empaths. 'Nuff said.

1215 is like 115's physical cousin. Pure awesome.

1615 takes out the need for ambushing a critter's legs first. It's the stuff legends are made out of.

Then you have 515. Sobbing itself to sleep at night because it does nothing. You cast it and then...nothing happens. No fireworks. No explosions. No critters die. No numbers change. Nothing.

It's a sad, miserable life for 515 and it's destined to live a worse life in the near future.

Let's all say a prayer for 515 and keep it in your thoughts.

>>No numbers change.

Pst, RT is expressed as an integer and it does, in fact, change.

Also, lovin the 415 part.

Tal.

215 is too busy huddled in a corner hiding from 515. Next?

1215 RULES All...er I mean...you blink suddenly out of existence and reappear 2 inches to the left...

515 is the worst 15th level spell in the game.

1215 is like 115's physical cousin. Pure awesome.

obviously you have never played a monk. 1215 is probably the most worthless spell in the world. It lets you dodge one physical attack then dissipates. That's what 3x training in dodge is for.

Between redux, 3x dodge and iron skin...blink is not even worthy of the mana required to cast it.

>I never said the spell was above lying to try and get your sympathy!

515 wouldn't lie to me! You take that back!

The empath has to train 193 ranks of ML:M and 150 ranks of SL:SS to get the same benefits a wizard gets at 193 ranks of EL:F. The latter is much cheaper to train.

GameMaster Estild

Sounds like they need another lore tacked on to the spell...

Why would we compare 1x to ML:M and SL:SS to 2x EL:F? Let's say a wizard wants to train to get a high instant kill chance. So they train 193 EL:F ranks for a 13% chance. An empath also has to train 193 ranks of ML:M for the same 13% chance. Now the difference is, the wizard's EL:F lore is also going to guaranteed to grant them the third extra crit cycle when casting Immolate. An empath has a 0% chance until they also start training SS:SS. So if they want the guaranteed chance for the extra crit cycle, it's going to require 150 ranks of SS:SS. The empath has to train 193 ranks of ML:M and 150 ranks of SL:SS to get the same benefits a wizard gets at 193 ranks of EL:F. The latter is much cheaper to train.

GameMaster Estild

First and foremost, there is incredibly limited documentation in regards to the critical damage cycles that are returned as a result of the various CS attacks. You're utilizing documentation not readily available to end users, and are doing so in such a way that it almost comes across as belittling or smug. I can realize it's not your intent, but these are particular learning experience that you can give the community to better enlighten us to be able to make the apples to apples comparisons. I mean hell, I've been trying to do data modeling to aggregate all potential d100 roles, at all potential body locations, to try to create a baseline comparison between various weapon forms and compare apples to apples for AS/DS resolved attacks.

Another factor to consider is the relative opportunity cost of training so heavily in the lore. Even if an empath were to train entirely in ML:M for the same value, they do have the potential to vary their training on the spiritual lore side. Not that the other Spirit lore options are really that incredibly for empaths... but the fact remains is that it's very much an 'all in' build, that really pigeon holes potential training opportunities. I think this is a relatively poor design choice, because you're actively telling people that they're not going to be able to utilize as much of the nuance and mechanics that you're working so hard to develop. I understand that this game revolves around some form of scarcity in training points, CMAN, SMAN points, etc. However these values that are being proposed for the upper tier would be like introducing a CMAN that requires 190 points to obtain. And CMAN are a lot easier to change than lores!

~Whirlin

>> Assuming we're talking post cap since pre cap, most pures are only going to be training 1x in any lore so they all share the same opportunity cost then. Postcap, hybrids definitely don't suffer as much of an opportunity cost, but they also get much less return on each lore rank since it only affects a subset of their spells. For example, once the ELR is complete, Elemental Lore, Fire will affect at least 14 spells used by wizards in the Minor Elemental, Major Elemental, and Wizard spell circles. However, if an empath trains in Mental Lore, Manipulation, it only affects 5 of their spells in the Empath spell circle and none in the Minor Spiritual or Major Spiritual spell circles.

One nitpick with this, and it highlights something that's been bugging me on the ELR. While yes, a Wizard is going to get a benefit to 14 spells, they're only actually going to be using 1-2 of those in any particular time. Once the Wizard has a build, they'll figure out which spell is best in each circumstance, and use that one. For a CS based Wizard, only 2 are going to matter, 519 and 502.

Meanwhile, for the empath, they're going to get about the same benefits out of that Mental Lore. The combat attack benefits are to 1106 and 1115, which is the same as the Mage getting out of fire lore.

Now, there's a tiny benefit also to 1150, which grants critical resistance, which is actually a defensive benefit. Read on for why this matters (and yes, it's only ONE spell, and there might be better examples but it's late, and yes that's only going to really help a couple times a day, but the point is actually further down..).

While that one spell probably not anything to write home about, it segway's nicely into the point I'm really trying to make, which is that as the ELR goes on, Fire is rapidly becoming a lore that's only really desirable in one build, and that's the immolate build. And because such a steep amount is needed, you either go to 193 fire, or don't bother. The benefits of a 50/50/50/50 build are just stacking up to be too great.

Another thing that's a little strange, Back during the first HSN post about 403 and water helping lockpicks, the statement was made that Fire=damage, earth=defense, air=speed, water=utility (general idea). This left a lot of heads scratching because while it makes consistency sense, it's not in line thematically with anything already in GS, and honestly most of the HSN releases haven't stuck to that either. I don't actually WANT them to stick to it, but if it did, then the new Acid Burn ability should be based on Fire, not Earth, despite the fact that Acid is obviously a water/earth spell. So yeah, thematics make a TON of sense.

BUT by not sticking to the themes, a new problem is happening. Earth increases damage and utility of many spells (proposed Haste changes, Acid spells). Air increases damage, utility, and speed of air spells and other spells. Water increases damage and utility of water spells (and Major Shock, a bread and butter damage spell for bolters).

However... fire... well it only does the one thing. ALL it's doing is adding damage to damage spells, and because that damage can get really ridiculous at the endpoints, it requires super high stacks of lore. However, for consistency with other ELR changes, shouldn't fire also have some utility/defensive abilities too?

For instance

Chance to disarm opponent when hit while stoneskin is up if fire lore is high (defensive ability)
Chance to melt the lock when using 416 (utility ability)

Things like that.

I know this is mostly just spitballing, but it's something I'v noticed and I've had a hard time expressing it until now.

>> But that's actually not true at all. I guarantee you wizards who train in Elemental Lore, Fire and use warding spells will get benefits out of more spells other than just 502 and 519, including some that are utility.

>> That's why when I posted about the themes, I specifically ended it with, "It's only a general guideline, as sometimes a specific spell is strongly associated with an element that it doesn't make much sense to use any other element. You'll see why water lore makes more sense in the next couple of days." In many cases, this is true for any elemental bolt spell.

First off, glad I managed to get out my point the right way, about how I was more referring to how in order to be seen as awesome (with "power" not factoring into the equation), a Wizard (as an elemental master) or any Character (for spirit/necro lore) should expect to see benefits to several spells from their lores. This means the spells a character will use regularly.

So far, Earth seems to have gotten the most love (an Earth wizard will see lore benefits on about 8-10 spells they regularly use) with Air either the same or not far behind, and water a little behind (because it doesn't have a strong defensive component), and fire very behind (no defensive/utility components).

I'm also glad that this is just because so far the HSN releases have been Earth-Heavy (Air was already robust before HSN) and not because Fire is only for offense purposes.