>>So what does this mean? Those 2x+ capped should just call it a day and stop playing? Everything you've proposed continues to reward the pocket enchant/buff wizard and does nothing to alleviate the concerns of those who have played wizard mains long term. What else would you suggest I spend my now freed up TPs on when you've demolished killing power on 4 fronts?

Meaning the world doesn't revolve around 2x+ capped mages. It's been stated time and time again (by players) that the 519 build only works with severe post-cap training. It's moving to benefit a greater population.

I wish your lore seeds didn't revolve around 2x+ capped mages.

>>Really, nothing else has been suggested or requested? The AS/CS "power-up" of 240? The old 519 was perfectly fine because it ALSO functioned as a panic button. If the panic button instant kill is no longer an option, please provide a replacement.

Nothing has been suggested beyond tricking out the pony. You want to make it faster, run sideways, only do certain tricks, but do them better , come in a different color, but in the end it's still a one-trick pony that you're clinging to. At the end of the day the majority of arguments have been reskinning the 519 build into a 519 build, the 515 build into a 515 build, and the 506 build into a 506 build. So, yes you're clinging to one-trick pony builds and the alternative suggestions are lacking... still.

That's odd, we want to continue playing the characters we've been playing for years, some of us decades. What a strange request. How dare we!?!

Where are your good suggestions? Most of us have laughed at the recent additions to wizardry. I mean, reactive flares at 13% when fully 2x? LOL Whose world doesn't revolve around 2x cap?

>So, yes you're clinging to one-trick pony builds and the alternative suggestions are lacking... still.

Also, I really have to point out the obvious and ask how forcing wizards to switch to using a CS-based mass disabler (which doesn't exist for wizards) and low level CS spells to kill like all the other pures, is not the most one-trick pony, cookie cutter move of all.

You keep talking about wizards and one trick ponies, but people played wizards because their combat options were different. If I wanted to play the cookie cutter CS route, any of the other pures are more fun and rewarding than the proposed revised wizard class.

"every other pure has guaranteed CS-based mass disablers plus native access to 117, which more than offsets any advantage wizards may have gained by having haste and weaker swings." -- LadyFleur

Speaking in my Cleric & Wizard personae, I would much rather have the cumulative-duration AS bonus from Targeting (and go through the comparatively minimal chore of having to train up enough levels to maximize said bonus) always active for four hours at a time...
...than the one-shot fixed-bonus for 2/3rds the mana cost.

Speaking as my Sorcerer persona, I like having both, just fine.

And given that my Wizard is a hell of a lot more likely to find a blue crystal to make use of the spell the Cleric has (to say nothing of being able to charge up said crystal and keep it with him for multiple uses), compared to the difficulty my Cleric is going to have locating even one single solitary use of the spell that the Wizard has...
...Yeah, I'm just not feeling the sympathy. Going in either direction.

.

Particularly since Wizards also have Strength (although it's true a Cleric can find a white crystal), while Clerics also have Bravery (although it's true a Wizard can slug down a pure potion).

But then again, Clerics also also have Heroism, while the Wizard is still searching around for some way to have that reliably (given that I sold off all of my spoons). BUT, Wizards just re-gained the 20AS they were denied by Elemental Focus/513, so those two are pretty much a wash.

Heh, you keep calling yourself "The Bull". Maybe it'll catch on.

I have one more thing to add about the major elemental circle supposedly being such a huge boon to wizards. If you think about it, the major elemental circle has become a crutch for wizards, not a boon.

Yes, the really good spells of Haste, Rapid Fire, Immolation, even Mana Leech are all on the major elemental spell circle because the Wizard spell circle is pretty lackluster. Think about it.

7 of the 23 spells that are currently implemented are bolt spells. That's 30% of all spells. It would make more sense to merge all of these spells into one bolt spell then a wizard could decide which bolt spell they want to cast and it would have the power and mana cost of the currently implemented bolt spells.

Then you have 909 which is on par with power with 410, a spell in the minor elemental spell slot. I know tremors is different but you know what I mean.

905, 911, 913, and 919 are all just basic defense spells. A lot of people would argue 919 isn't even worthwhile most of the time due to the short duration.

You have 914 that sucks.

915 sucks.

917 sucks.

Invisibility is nice but for the most part it's just a utility spell for fun.

Duplicate is alright but it occupies an 18th level spell slot. No way does duplicate belong in that spell slot.

Enchant item is obviously nice so I'm not going to argue that one.

Call Familiar is nice but it has pretty much zero utility and it occupies the 20th level spell in a pure casters spell circle.

Familiar Gate has very limited use and it occupies the 30th level spell in a pure casters spell circle.

Overall the wizard spell circle is pretty uninspiring. It's full of bolt spells, useless spells, utility spells with very limited usage, and of course enchant item. I would gladly they moved some of the "class defining" spells from the major elemental circle and found a way to move them to the wizard spell circle if it meant not nerfing these spells nearly as bad as they are suggesting.

And of course it's also missing spells 935, 940, and 950.

Why do you think most wizards only train in the wizard spell circle past 30 for more CS for spells in the major elemental spell circle or to help with enchanting? No, really. Those are literally the only two reasons people train in the wizard circle past 30.

>>Second, wizards are not primarily CS casters. They do not overtrain MjE prior to near-cap because in order to do so to produce sufficient CS benefits they sacrifice necessary training in other circles. If wizards had a range of CS spells to support the CS specialization, perhaps this would be true. But they don't. And nobody is going to sacrifice other circles to overtrain MjE to use a spell that costs too much mana.

Things change.

>>You are looking at this spell in a vacuum. Don't do that. Look at wizards as a whole and ask yourself if your assumptions are true. Who are these lower level wizards who are going to train fire lore and overtrain MjE just to use immolate?

You're assuming fire lore will be a requirement for the baseline benefit of the spell. If anything I would argue that I'm being more considerate of a broader range of the wizard population than those looking to preserve their current builds. I've no intention of simply confirming a 202 fire lore build and checking a box before turning this over.

>>You may have had more of a hand in that reaction than you think! Again, what do you think is changing that wizards are to have a fully realized CS-based specialization worthy of sacrificing the "normal" training routine? If you were, as Wyrom suggested, working under the auspices of downtweaking one-trick pony spells and adding variation and fun to the class, where are these other CS-based spells that necessarily need to exist in order for players to change their current habits, thus utilizing the changes and supporting your assumption that this is a lateral shift?

I said at the beginning you guys had an opportunity to have a voice into the change, that should be glaringly obvious now. If at the end of the ELR nothing has really changed beyond minor, undesired, lore tweaks then I would feel like the whole thing would have been wasted effort on everyone's part. If at the end we've a lateral shift in power with additional diversity, flavor, and training thresholds as well as an abundance of balanced suggestions that we can use to fill in some of the perceived-short comings, then I feel like that would be a significant win.

You guys are getting caught up in preserving status quo though, and I've been singing the same tune from the start. If 506, 515, and 519 were to disappear tomorrow, what would you want in their place? You (as a class) have never fully answered that question I asked on day 1, but we have 500+ tweak suggestions to 506/515.

I saw 950 as a really nice addition to offset some of 506's current benefits, both defensively and offensively. That didn't originate from a player on this forum after the prompting - but it could have - again missed opportunity because the focus is misdirected.

You mentioning needing additional CS spells for a CS build, when, where, what, how? Clerics only have 2 staples (302/317) why do you need more than that?

>>I'm big on proposing alternatives and I appreciate that they are read and considered. However, you're starting to sound a bit like you're blaming the players for not providing their own nerfs and alternatives. Since when is that their job? I agree they should be active in conceptualizing the future of the class that matters to them, and I appreciate the opportunity to be heard. But let's not go overboard here. If the results aren't popular in the end it won't be the wizard community who chose to make these changes, will it?

I knew this would be coming. We had plans, you claimed to know better, so now you've the spotlight. It doesn't have to be your job, but if you want to eat at the table you should probably at least pick up the spoon. So what's it going to be, same old song and dance or what?

Viduus

>I saw 950 as a really nice addition to offset some of 506's current benefits, both defensively and offensively. That didn't originate from a player on this forum after the prompting - but it could have - again missed opportunity because the focus is misdirected. - Viduus

...what? You're saying a spell that at its base level is able to be used once per day ...that you don't get access to until your level 50 at the earliest, is suppose to in some meaningful way replace the current benefits of a level 6 spell with unlimited uses.

Also, people HAVE been suggesting tweaks to 950. Myself being one of them. A lot of people likely stopped because Estild specifically said he wasn't going to go into the details of the spell at this time. We can't offer tweaks to something which we don't know how it will work. At least not in a meaningful way.

Any thoughts on this? Don't mean to sound like a pest, but I feel like this got lost in the shuffle:

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/2300

ERYKK2

We asked for crit padding or ASG changes for 520, you gave us reactive flares.

We asked for an AS buff to offset the +100 AS squares/semis have over us, you'll probably give us +1 AS on a seed 10.

We asked for a lower mana cost to the proposed 506 changes, you scrapped the idea completely, and I have a feeling you're going to make the spell worse than the original proposal based upon feedback about what that change would actually force us into, IE: hunting for 4 minutes and then resting. Yes, we're on to how you work. I'm guessing you'll try to limit haste even further than the original proposal. Make it self-cast only and stop selling it off the shelf in unlimited quantities.

We asked you to split the offensive/defensive capabilities of haste into 504 & 506, you ignored us.

We asked for 512 to mimic 112 when self-cast, and you ignored us. We asked for 512 to change "water" rooms to "ice rooms" for safe electricity casting, this may be in the works, or we may have been ignored yet again.

You don't always get what you want and it's also a matter of time. Some of these suggestions have been made in the last week. I mean sure, I could ask Viduus and the others to stop working on some of the other lore updates if you really want them to focus on making 512 more similar to 112 instead of 909, or lore bonuses that grant more damage from 425 or more AS from 513. More so, as I have repeated time and time again, this isn't a spell review. Stone Skin could definitely use some updates, but that doesn't mean we can't add an extra benefit to it right now. Lastly, I'm not sure how you claim we ignored you on any of the Haste updates when we haven't even announced what revisions we're making.

ERYKK2

"Ultimately you'll have a large say in the direction your class takes" - Viduus

I wish this were actually true.

What do you think spurred the changes we announced last night? If we weren't considering your feedback, we wouldn't have announced everything in advance, then made changes based upon said feedback.

ERYKK2

I wish your lore seeds didn't revolve around 2x+ capped mages.

You do realize summation favors lower level characters? You get more benefits for less ranks. The higher you go up, the less benefit you get. They favor lower rank investment and thus lower level characters.

Okay, can we just get confirmation on something in regards to Rapid Fire?

Is there absolutely no way Rapid Fire will have 0 second castRT after the change? I know Estilid commented on this before but that was before all of this talk of moving the spell to higher level slots.

By default, no, we're not going to allow Rapid Fire to have 0 castRT. As proposed, we're willing to allow you to have a chance to trigger 0 second castRT with Elemental Lore, Air training.

GameMaster Estild

To respond to your question, if 506, 515, 519 were all to disappear, what would we want in their place?

Reduced subscription costs and the ability to change classes.

~Whirlin

>>By default, no, we're not going to allow Rapid Fire to have 0 castRT. As proposed, we're willing to allow you to have a chance to trigger 0 second castRT with Elemental Lore, Air training.

"As proposed" is in reference to moving it to 540 or at its current spot with the cooldown (or both)?

Tal.

Whirlin.... incant?

It has no bearing on the human factor of recognizing the situation and responding properly, but having to prep seems like the an inconsequential change to me.

Tal.

CIRCADIANZEBRA

The DFs on Minor Cold and Minor Fire are much lower than Hurl Boulder and Major Shock. I'm assuming the air bolt will have a similar DF to 910 and 510, but if it's around the same as the minor bolts, this applies there, too. I don't think there will be a variable mana cost involved based on the bolts used, so is there some other basic difference between the versions of this spell that I'm missing?

There is a disparity, but there are also lore benefits from the individual spells to consider. Minor Fire probably has one of the better ones for possible bolts in 518. I don't think we have anything currently planned for Minor Cold, but we can certainly look at adding something to try to offset its lower damage factor.

GameMaster Estild

Tal.

"As proposed" is in reference to moving it to 540 or at its current spot with the cooldown (or both)?

For the EL:A benefit both. For the EL:W benefit, only if it stays at 515 since the spell wouldn't have a cooldown at 540 (thus no need for a lore benefit to negate it).

Whirlin

Have you ever accidentally incanted a wizard spell with no critters in the room?

>incant 910
You do not currently have a target.

(It works the same for all offensive spells).

GameMaster Estild

>And particularly when compared to things like Wall of Thorns or Pestilence, which trigger on the attack being made at all in the first place and not on "being successfully hit."

It's pretty sad when right now a wizard would be better off getting a 716 imbed than using their own 520.

>>You failed to offer suggestions to diversify that down time with other cool and interesting ideas that could also be used for the uptime. You failed to to seize an opportunity and instead opted to cling to vanilla one-trick pony builds.

Someone offered up a pretty cool idea about types of flares Haste could provide as a defensive mechanism based on lores trained and a cooldown as a result of a successful hit on said Wizard. It would force Wizards to train more and a variety of elemental lores, thus staying in line with the proposed review, while keeping a facet of the development team's proposed cooldown.

Sounds like a pretty cool idea to me.

Also, the "one-trick pony build" you're referencing simply isn't true. Many Mages on here have a variety of different builds. I'm seeing Immolation Wizards, War Mages, and Bolters all being very vocal about how none of the proposed changes even come close to being acceptable alternatives. See above. That's an alternative, and a cool one at that, that provides compromises on both sides.

KRAKII

!! And particularly when compared to things like Wall of Thorns or Pestilence, which trigger on the attack being made at all in the first place and not on "being successfully hit."

You're comparing the base functionality of one spell to the lore benefit of another. In general, the latter is intended to be a small bonus and usually to the degree that it won't significantly affect combat. There are exceptions, but in general, that's how lores should work.

GameMaster Estild

>By default, no, we're not going to allow Rapid Fire to have 0 castRT. As proposed, we're willing to allow you to have a chance to trigger 0 second castRT with Elemental Lore, Air training.

Well let's attack this from a different angle then.

What if Rapid Fire was moved to the 930 slot, thus doubling it's mana cost as well as moving it 15 spell ranks higher and on a pure's spell circle. Then it can have a 60 second non-stacking duration and it would work thusly during those 60 seconds:

It would have 0 cast roundtime for 5 seconds, then after the 5 seconds are up the wizard would be forced into a 2 second castRT, then it would cycle like this over and over for the duration of the spell.

Maybe the numbers can be tweaked a bit but would something like that be possible?

>>Wizards don't have 100 As lower then everyone else, they only have 100 lower AS then squares.

Bards, Paladins, Rangers (117, 608)

>> Meaning the world doesn't revolve around 2x+ capped mages. It's been stated time and time again (by players) that the 519 build only works with severe post-cap training. It's moving to benefit a greater population.

If the world doesn't revolve around 2x capped Mages, certainly the Lore benefits and TP costs need to be heavily re-evaluated.