<Dude, really? Stop being so belittling and rude. It's unpleasant enough for others to read, let alone the person you're targeting it at.

You're right. I apologize. I'm just getting a little heated because I'm being told I'm lying when the person accusing me doesn't have his facts the least bit straight. It's infuriating coming from the person responsible for these changes.

~Taverkin

My post-cap cleric with maxed CS and max CS enhancives is almost always guaranteed a kill with 317.

...even against something that doesn't crit?

And if 519's crits are being scaled to 317's, as has been stated, why won't it be just as good from that perspective, even putting aside the insta-death completely?

>How do you figure that? How does my wizard having sole access to the major elemental list benefit him compared to my empath who shares his major spirit circle?

Exclusivity typically imparts a higher value, as well it should. The spells also don't need to be balanced against 2 separate professions. I'm with V on this one. I don't think you'll garner much sympathy over having 2 closed lists available to your profession.

>What does that mean? For the average mage (2x+ cappers aside), more flexibility in their TP investment. Not having to go all in for an immo build (202 ranks) as a requirement means that maybe they have 50-100 ranks worth to spend elsewhere.

So what does this mean? Those 2x+ capped should just call it a day and stop playing? Everything you've proposed continues to reward the pocket enchant/buff wizard and does nothing to alleviate the concerns of those who have played wizard mains long term. What else would you suggest I spend my now freed up TPs on when you've demolished killing power on 4 fronts?

>As far as what other tools to support a CS build are concerned... if the old 519 was perfectly fine, and we're successful in making it a true lateral shift then logic would dictate nothing extra is needed... and nothing else has been suggested or requested... probably because you guys are too busy clinging to the old rather than embracing the new.

Really, nothing else has been suggested or requested? The AS/CS "power-up" of 240? The old 519 was perfectly fine because it ALSO functioned as a panic button. If the panic button instant kill is no longer an option, please provide a replacement.

>Many of the items being implemented today were pitched, designed, and agreed upon by players at some point in the process. I've said this from the beginning of this review.

Except many items were pitched 10 years ago and most people never thought they'd materialize. There's a reason many people never wanted those changes to happen. They're horrible, and in no way compensate for what we're losing as a result.

>The bottom line: Please find a way for wizards to hunt the second floor of Nelemar, the Scatter, and warcamps as safely and effectively as all of the other 3 pures with the changes you're making that don't involve standing around in dangerous, difficult to access, areas for 29 seconds at a time. And give us a viable panic button if you're removing the efficacy of 519 post-cap.

To repeat my questions, do your proposed solutions include answers for these 2 points? Otherwise, why should wizards be happy to be SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful in combat than any other pure class? No other pure has to settle for mediocrity.

I said I would keep my ire in check till all the ELR reviews where done and the spell changes were made…I have kept my word and will continue to do so

After stepping back and taking a breath, I still feel that way, “WE” the collective we are getting all upset, and combative before we see the whole picture, what I am seeing by the constant negativity is this, we will end up with some of the requests that players have made and the DEV team is saying they are not good fits, BUT “WE” THE COLECTIVE “WE” wanted them so the DEV team will implement them.

My fear is this, if “WE” keep whining about every little change before “WE” have the whole picture, “WE” will be less viable and more bitter than anything that is being posted now.

Let’s step back let the GM’s present the whole package and then give some CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISISM without attack and with complete knowledge of what has been implemented.

What we are doing now is taking a Ferrari making all sorts of requests and changes before the Ferrari is built and we will end up with a Yugo

Just my thoughts


You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

>Moreover though, the amount of damage that 519 dishes out is apparently being increased in the non disabling version (?) AND you'll be getting a new low level CS damage spell which assuming it's along the lines of 702 and 302 will be much more mana efficient. And guess what, you'll be able to cast that once per second.

This whole argument is moot because no one really used 515/519 on a constant basis. The average person, post-cap or otherwise, doesn't have 1100 mana to blow on 19 mana CS spells without a 240 style power-up that also increases CS. If I wanted to become a CS-based pure using a low level CS spell repeatedly to result in kills, I'd go play any of the other 3 pures instead.

<Some food for thought on why I believe that. You constantly refer to the 519 change as a nerf to the spell, it's been stated and I'll reiterate as a lateral shift in power. Top end for the <spell is losing power (yes 90% crit kill rate at 250+ endrolls was overkill - literally), bottom end is gaining power. Specifically the low end 0-lore version of this spell becomes lethal for <all mages as a baseline. Modest training in fire lore will give good returns on the spell and moderate training will give less than it currently does.

<What does that mean? For the average mage (2x+ cappers aside), more flexibility in their TP investment. Not having to go all in for an immo build (202 ranks) as a requirement means that maybe <they have 50-100 ranks worth to spend elsewhere.

You've been told numerous times why the idea that this is a tradeoff is misleading.

First, it's a 19 mana spell. Who do you imagine all these low-mid range wizards are that are going to want to utilize immolate at 19 mana per cast?

Second, wizards are not primarily CS casters. They do not overtrain MjE prior to near-cap because in order to do so to produce sufficient CS benefits they sacrifice necessary training in other circles. If wizards had a range of CS spells to support the CS specialization, perhaps this would be true. But they don't. And nobody is going to sacrifice other circles to overtrain MjE to use a spell that costs too much mana.

You are looking at this spell in a vacuum. Don't do that. Look at wizards as a whole and ask yourself if your assumptions are true. Who are these lower level wizards who are going to train fire lore and overtrain MjE just to use immolate?

Meanwhile, the post-cap players who can actually afford to use this spell are receiving the nerf. It's a matter of the nerf being relevant to players who use the spell while the buff is not. Dig?

<As far as what other tools to support a CS build are concerned... if the old 519 was perfectly fine, and we're successful in making it a true lateral shift then logic would dictate nothing <extra is needed... and nothing else has been suggested or requested... probably because you guys are too busy clinging to the old rather than embracing the new.

You may have had more of a hand in that reaction than you think! Again, what do you think is changing that wizards are to have a fully realized CS-based specialization worthy of sacrificing the "normal" training routine? If you were, as Wyrom suggested, working under the auspices of downtweaking one-trick pony spells and adding variation and fun to the class, where are these other CS-based spells that necessarily need to exist in order for players to change their current habits, thus utilizing the changes and supporting your assumption that this is a lateral shift?

<As a final note - and I'm going to use warmages as an example here - but it's a broader problem. That cling to old paradigms is stifling your growth potential and development opportunities. <Your current setup gets the job done, 100% haste uptime, pecking away for 5-15 swings at 15 damage each attack = "fun" by some. You constantly complain about boring hunting methods and <request additions and buffs, but are unwilling to give up your one-trick pony builds. You complained about being haste-less for 30 seconds and failed to envision alternatives to attack, <wait 5 seconds, attack wait 5 seconds in that time period. You failed to offer suggestions to diversify that down time with other cool and interesting ideas that could also be used for the <uptime. You failed to to seize an opportunity and instead opted to cling to vanilla one-trick pony builds.

I'm big on proposing alternatives and I appreciate that they are read and considered. However, you're starting to sound a bit like you're blaming the players for not providing their own nerfs and alternatives. Since when is that their job? I agree they should be active in conceptualizing the future of the class that matters to them, and I appreciate the opportunity to be heard. But let's not go overboard here. If the results aren't popular in the end it won't be the wizard community who chose to make these changes, will it?

~Taverkin

<Dude, really? Stop being so belittling and rude. It's unpleasant enough for others to read, let alone the person you're targeting it at.

You're right. I apologize. I'm just getting a little heated because I'm being told I'm lying when the person accusing me doesn't have his facts the least bit straight. It's infuriating coming from the person responsible for these changes.

~Taverkin

Thank you! :)

Okay, can we just get confirmation on something in regards to Rapid Fire?

Is there absolutely no way Rapid Fire will have 0 second castRT after the change? I know Estilid commented on this before but that was before all of this talk of moving the spell to higher level slots.

Just so I stop getting my hopes up, is a 0 second castRT just not in the big picture moving forward? Outside of making Rapid Fire like a 50th level spell with a daily usage amount of course.

So even if we put Rapid Fire in the 940 slot, the most powerful wizard spell (outside the limited 50th level slot) slot, with a 30 second non-stackable duration, a 0 castRT is still out of the picture? I just want some confirmation here. I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum over the answer, I would just like to know where we stand.

<You are apparently overtraining for better enchanting results (I assume?).>
No I overtrain for the CS I hunt the rift

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

>you're probably benefiting.

"Probably" isn't reality.

>You've got two full spell lists of slots dedicated only to the wizard profession, that is a lot of room for a wide variety of spells.

Not really. Empaths and Clerics play almost exactly the same so the major spirit circle can be designed around both of them.

I would love to hear just one actual example of how the major elemental circle being exclusive has actually benefited my wizard over clerics and empaths.

513 increasing my bolt AS by ~60? There are two spells in the major spirit circle that increase bolt AS by 40, with lore they can provide the same bolt AS as 513, PLUS both 211 and 215 help protect against sheer fear AND 215 gives 1 mana and 1 health every minute.

The order of power, assigned by the GMs, of spell circles is as follows: Minor > Major > Profession. To ask how it benefits you to have a major circle is silly.

To ask how it benefits you to have the sole access to a Major circle should be fairly obvious. Haste and Rapid Fire immediately come to mind. These spells are obviously considered extremely powerful. Stuffing them onto a second profession would mean even further nerfing of them to fit both classes. The Major Elemental circle would look little like it does now were it shared with another profession. Granted, the 900 circle would be the better for it, but not enough to make up the 500's loss of exclusivity.

As to Empaths having access to Major Spiritual, that was always a crapshow. They were supposed to lose that circle and pick up Minor Mental, but the GMs lost their nerve. Lets hope wizards are so lucky with these upcoming nerfs.

>I would love to hear just one actual example of how the major elemental circle being exclusive has actually benefited my wizard over clerics and empaths.

Haste exists?

Suppose Bards used MjE instead of MnE, haste would not exist. Is in't AS/CS/CS/TD bonuses, those are irrelevant really. GMs decide what attack and defense levels should be, then code the spells to match. It is the variety of unique spells.

Okay, maybe you'll say "so move haste to the 900s" okay, what do you get rid of for it? What about charge item, mana leech, immolate, etc etc? A shared circle wouldn't have had those spells, so make room in the 900s for them? There has got to be cuts, what are you going to cut?

Exclusivity is such an obvious benefit, if you can't see it straight away, there is probably no convincing you.

>To ask how it benefits you to have a major circle is silly.

That's not what I asked. I asked how does it benefit my wizard to have exclusive access to the major elemental circle compared to my empath who has to share the major spirit circle with clerics.

>To ask how it benefits you to have the sole access to a Major circle should be fairly obvious.

Are we really bringing back the "it should be obvious!"

Here, let me try that.

It should be obvious that having sole access to the major elemental circle doesn't benefit my wizard.

There you go. Argue against my rock solid logic.

>Haste and Rapid Fire immediately come to mind.

Pointing out two spells and saying "Case closed" doesn't really prove much. This is doubly funny considering these two spells are on the chopping block for receiving some major nerfs.

>Stuffing them onto a second profession would mean even further nerfing of them to fit both classes.

You're assuming a lot. I like facts.

>The Major Elemental circle would look little like it does now were it shared with another profession.

You mean it might look like the major spirit circle with spells like 202, 203, 209, 211, 213, 214, 215, 218, 219, 220, 225, 230, and 240? Oh no! The agony!

<<<<<That is necessary for wizards and wizards only who are warmages because of their 100 lower AS than everyone else has.

Wizards don't have 100 As lower then everyone else, they only have 100 lower AS then squares.

Wizard Physical AS is comparable to clerics, empaths, and sorcs. There may be a very very small difference in self cast AS spells, but it is NO WHERE near 100.

So.. every class that has lower AS then a Semi or Square should have access to selfcast haste?

Is there an option to CHANNEL 519 to provide a third option to retain the lore-based instant kill feature?

You mean the current one that can reach 90% on high endrolls?

I'm not a GM, but just a guess...

...no. And I don't think that's "wizard-hate". I think it's because that's just too damn powerful.

>..no. And I don't think that's "wizard-hate". I think it's because that's just too damn powerful.

It's no more powerful than 240/1115 or 240/317 when you have the appropriately high enough endrolls and lores. The existence of these other equally, if not more, effective combat combinations is what debunks all of the talk of wizard spells being overpowered.

>>So what does this mean? Those 2x+ capped should just call it a day and stop playing? Everything you've proposed continues to reward the pocket enchant/buff wizard and does nothing to alleviate the concerns of those who have played wizard mains long term. What else would you suggest I spend my now freed up TPs on when you've demolished killing power on 4 fronts?

Meaning the world doesn't revolve around 2x+ capped mages. It's been stated time and time again (by players) that the 519 build only works with severe post-cap training. It's moving to benefit a greater population.

>>Really, nothing else has been suggested or requested? The AS/CS "power-up" of 240? The old 519 was perfectly fine because it ALSO functioned as a panic button. If the panic button instant kill is no longer an option, please provide a replacement.

Nothing has been suggested beyond tricking out the pony. You want to make it faster, run sideways, only do certain tricks, but do them better , come in a different color, but in the end it's still a one-trick pony that you're clinging to. At the end of the day the majority of arguments have been reskinning the 519 build into a 519 build, the 515 build into a 515 build, and the 506 build into a 506 build. So, yes you're clinging to one-trick pony builds and the alternative suggestions are lacking... still.

>>Otherwise, why should wizards be happy to be SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful in combat than any other pure class?

I would very much like to see proof of this "SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful in combat" thing. I have hours of combat logs comparing old 519 to new 519, and tedious calculation after tedious calculation.

What evidence or support or calculation or verification are you bringing to the table to support this assertion you keep making?

Viduus

>Nothing has been suggested beyond tricking out the pony. You want to make it faster, run sideways, only do certain tricks, but do them better , come in a different color, but in the end it's still a one-trick pony that you're clinging to. At the end of the day the majority of arguments have been reskinning the 519 build into a 519 build, the 515 build into a 515 build, and the 506 build into a 506 build. So, yes you're clinging to one-trick pony builds and the alternative suggestions are lacking... still.

Since it's the only trick we had, what other options do we have coming for CS-based mass disablers, then? Something similar to 135 or 316.

What other options are coming for the panic button, since we don't have 240 to boost our weakened 519 or a spell like 720? Tell us something is being considered and panic would lessen greatly. Right now, you're removing all of our tricks and glaring holes are left that other pures don't have to suffer, and that is what is concerning.

>I would very much like to see proof of this "SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful in combat" thing. I have hours of combat logs comparing old 519 to new 519, and tedious calculation after tedious calculation.

And again you're looking at this in a vacuum of your one spell change. In combination, by demolishing 4 core combat spells, you're removing ALL of our trick combinations and telling us to deal with the aftermath. The result is as a whole, as a result of the 4 mass nerfs, we'll be significantly less powerful in combat than any other pure. We won't have access to a panic button like 240/1115, 240/317 or 720. We won't have anything to do in those 29 seconds of 515 downtime except plink away with weak bolts that are unlikely to result in a fast enough kill, assuming we need to retain spirit to be able to continue bolting when the cooldown ends and can't afford a 19 mana CS spell that has an even lower chance of an instant kill than it does now.

On certain creatures, right now 519 is very lethal. However on many others, it can easily take 3-5 casts and result in no death, so there is a gamble of up to 100 mana wasted and the creature still has not died. See Duskruin.

>I love how you're dismissing the fact that 3 spells considered so class defining that wizards are completely up in arms in their nerfing are all on this Major Circle which you profess doesn't have obvious value due to its exclusivity.

This isn't an argument. There would be a similar uproar if 211 and 215 were up on the chopping block for major nerfs, even though they belong to a spell circle that two classes share. You seem to be implying that if wizards shared the major elemental circle with another class that wizards wouldn't be upset with the impending nerfs. You are wrong.

>I'm not going to continue this conversation because it isn't productive.

Of course not.

>Having 2 closed circles is one such break for wizards.

And yet you haven't stated at all how this is a "break" for wizards.

>Feel free to conclude the argument by pointing out all the facts my argument is missing.

Don't worry, I already did. Perhaps next time you want to tango with the bull you'll have your ducks in a row. Hint: Don't use "It should be obvious" as an argument if you want to be taken seriously.