>There are no plans to give wizards an always active ability to cast Minor Shock (901) in 1 second of castRT with the ability to also multicast.

Instead of all of these cooldowns and increased mana costs, is there an option to put a 3 mana minimum on any spell cast while under Rapid Fire effects? Or the ability to train the cooldown to zero at 2x EMC with the 3 mana minimum, since it seems mana efficiency is a big concern. It's still nowhere close to free mana as 240 is. Wizards are simply able to expend their current mana supply more quickly.

Try this on for size, Estild.

Rapid fire

Duration: Standard (1200s + 60s per MjE rank)

Reduces cast RT for bolt spells below level 10. Skill in elemental mana control provides a chance to double-cast for no additional mana cost.

RT reduction = -1s for 901 and 906, additional -1s following a double-cast which applies to any bolt spell cast, 3s spell-specific cooldown on double-cast.

Multi-cast = [EMC skill/((spell level * 10)/5)] rounded

So now you cast bolts at 2s RT with rapid fire with a variable chance to double-cast based upon spell level and EMC skill. When you double-cast, your next bolt cast is 1s RT, but you can't score back-to-back double-casts to repeatedly reduce the RT to 1s using a lower level spell. So basically, if I have 100% chance of double-cast on 901, I cast, get a double-cast proc, this initiates a 3s cooldown. Now I can either single-cast 901 at 1s, single-cast 906 at 1s with the lower chance to double-cast, or single-cast 910 at 2s.

Again, this is working under the assumption that 901 is minor elemental bolt, 906 is elemental bolt, and 910 is major elemental bolt following the cone of elements logic, if you follow me.

~Taverkin

<I don't like this at all. In normal combat situations, I see far more running Rapid Fire with 510 than with 901. 901 is mana efficient but annoying screen scroll. It should be eliminated as a <Rapid Fire option. A 10 mana bolt at 2 second is a non-starter.

Sorry, just to be clear what the issue is. Are you saying the 2s RT is too high for a 10 mana bolt? And screen scroll caused by 2s RT 901 with 100% chance (with training) to double-cast, but on a 3s cooldown is an issue as well?

~Taverkin

LADYFLEUR

519 is already much more costly to make viable as a hunting option (in terms of extra spell ranks almost solely for CS, extra harness power training, and lores, even if thresholds are reduced) vs. 1115 or 317. For wizards, it's generally a post-cap option that is more often used situationally depending on the creature hunted than not. Generally, it was only used on those creatures that were bolt resistant to begin with, but of course some creatures are fire immune.

All pures train spell ranks pretty evenly, especially at postcap. Wizards are not paying "more" for the benefit of using 519. The same reasons to use 519 will continue to exist after it's adjusted.

LADYFLEUR

1115 and 317 are powerful on their own, but the true power comes when you combine them with 240. That massive CS boost and free mana casts make it a "power-up on top of a power-up" panic button for when things need to be mowed down in a hurry. With the severe nerfs of 515 AND 519, you've removed both wizard panic buttons. We no longer have a panic button to use when our core bolts have failed and we're stuck and low on mana and can't cough cough to get more because we need spirit to bolt.

Rapid Fire isn't being removed. You can continue to use it after the change. In fact, the goal is to make it more of a "panic button" instead of an always active effect. As for 519, attack spells are not panic buttons. It's one or the other. After the update, you can also continue to use it when your "core bolts have failed and [you're] stuck and low on mana and can't cough cough to get more because [you] need spirit to bolt".

Taverkin

I rarely use immolate, Viduus. But I observe the same problem I see with all of the changes to the "big 3". You're taking specs that work, breaking them, and replacing them with nothing. Perhaps immolate wasn't intended to be a one-trick pony. Alright then, where is the coherent plan to replace it with a range of spells to support CS casting for wizards? The addition of a level 2 CS spell is a start at least. What else do you have for us? For rapid fire, too. Okay, rapid shock is dead. Rapid fire is situational use. But bolts are still about the same as ever they were. What do you have for us on that score? Haste? Well, it's up in the air now, but you basically killed war mages with these changes and so far all we've seen are some minor defensive additions that do nothing to address the fact that a wizard without haste is not effective with weapons. What is going to make playing a warmage fun, effective, and unique in the absence of haste as their defining asset?

This is completely false. First, for Immolate, it will be just as effective as other high level warding spells that other casters have used for many, many years and remained effective (and no, those spells don't require 240 to be effective). Wizards also have the option to combine it with Rapid Fire if needed. Just because it's not going to outkill kill a target with a single cast well over a majority of the time does in no way mean it's "broken and has been replaced with nothing". That's rhetoric and completely unreasonable. You're not even trying to engage in a dialog. As for Rapid Fire, it was never a "spec". It didn't even require any specialized training that a normal wizard, or more specifically a bolting wizard, wouldn't be training. It was simply a spell that was being abused in many cases to have 100% uptime. For a majority of wizards, they didn't use the spell with 100% uptime and the impact of a cooldown will have a minimal impact on them as such. If a 29 second cooldown at postcap is too much and/or you don't want to pay the increased mana cost penalty for recasting it while on cooldown, there is the 540 option. For Haste, we're not ready to release any details over that, but warmages are going to be completely fine.

STIDHAMT

moving 515 to 540 would be horrible. Pretty much have to be well post capped to have any use at all. Its worse than the cooldown changes

Personally, I would prefer Rapid Fire as 515, as it ensures more wizards can access it from levels 15-100, even if it does have a cooldown. However, if you're postcap, you're probably going to prefer the latter since mana isn't as restrictive then. But if you're also postcap, the 515 design allows you to train the cooldown down to 29 seconds (with 2x EMC), which means you pay less mana to use it and it lasts twice as long. However, the two options are there for players to voice their opinions on.

LADYFLEUR

I'm also pretty sure the rationale behind putting Immolation in 519 was to encourage people to train in the Major Elemental spell circle at all.

Taverkin

I know you're just being snarky, but this particular major circle is exclusively the realm of wizards which are a class that has virtually no meaningful support for CS casting. Comparing 519 to 317 is apples and oranges. Clerics train for CS. It's what they do. Wizards only train for CS to use immolate. It serves a completely different purpose.

Mana Leech (516) would like to have a talk with both of you.

GameMaster Estild

Personally, I would prefer Rapid Fire as 515, as it ensures more wizards can access it from levels 15-100, even if it does have a cooldown. However, if you're postcap, you're probably going to prefer the latter since mana isn't as restrictive then. But if you're also postcap, the 515 design allows you to train the cooldown down to 29 seconds (with 2x EMC), which means you pay less mana to use it and it lasts twice as long. However, the two options are there for players to voice their opinions on.

Just wanted to post this again, in case it got buried in a side-debate of 240 vs 515...

How about getting rid of 515's +5 mana per cast when used on cooldown, and replacing it with 40 mana up front for 30 second renewal on cooldown casts? That basically makes it 540 for those inclined to use it, and 515 for those who can wait for the cooldown.

Best of both worlds (at least, as to these two options)?

Any chance of being able to aim bolts Estild?

-Richard/Fjalar.

Haste - hmmmm, I know it's being looked into still, but maybe there can be a "happier" medium for everyone. It appears the GMs are trying to reduce the use of the spell outside of self cast, while still trying to limit how effective or how often it can be used (self cast or cast on others).

If the main idea is to try and limit the spell in how it's used for out of class characters, why not make Haste tie into Stamina. Think about it, you're moving rapidly over 60 seconds, it should be a strain on the body and leave you slightly fatigued.

If I take my dogs out on a 1 mile walk, it's a fairly easy task. We get our exercise and feel pretty good, pretty normal to the way we felt before the walk.
If I were to take my dogs out on the same 1 mile distance, but we jogged - clearly we'd get through the 1 mile faster (we had Haste cast on us!), but by the end we'd have some fatigue. We'd have to rest for a little before we feel normal again.

A normal hunt in game, you run around swinging your weapon in 5 second intervals. You do your hunt, you learn and earn and you feel normal when it's done.
Next time, you go out hunting and you're hasted (self cast) and you clear out your hunting in a fraction of the time through a few casts of haste. You moved faster, did the same hunt as before. You should feel fatigued and require some rest to recoup.

Everyone should have some training in Physical Fitness to at least max their Health. This means everyone's got at least 30-50 or more Stamina points. I don't see why this can be tied to Haste, self cast and cast on others. I've got a low level character that's 2x (16 ranks) in PT. He's currently got 34 Stamina Points. My Wizard is 79th level, 21 ranks in PT and has 53 Stamina Points. Maybe we could see something like this:

Haste - EL:Air reduces the amount of stamina used on Summation Seed 10, each Bonus point reduces Stamina used by 1%. So 60 ranks in EL:Air gives a 5% stamina use reduction. A 145 EL:Air ranks allows a Wizard to completely negate the use of Stamina to use the spell for self cast, whereas cast on others still costs 15% of Max Stamina once the spell wears off. A well trained Air Lore Wizard should be well rewarded if they utilize Haste in their hunts. Even the warmages that usually put 24 ranks into Air lore, they might think about increasing it 33 ranks to drop the stamina for self cast down to 7%.

Self cast with no Air Lore, 10% of Max Stamina used when the spell ends

Cast on others with no Air Lore, 25% of Max Stamina used when the spell ends

Cast from imbeds - 25% of Max Stamina is used, Air Lore doesn't reduce stamina used.

If the Stamina points drop past 0, just like with maneuvers, you strain your muscles and you cannot be Hasted again until the fatigued feeling wears off from popping your muscles.

My wizard, he's got 53 stamina and no air lore, after the spell duration ends, his stamina would be reduced by 6 points, (10% of 53 = 5.3, rounded up to 6) leaving him with 47/53 Stamina. If he casts it again right after the last cast ended, he'd go down another 6 points once the duration ended to 41/57. Eventually he'd run out of Stamina and be forced to forego casting the spell for a bit or to find a place to rest and let his stamina build back up. This restricts constant use of the Haste spell and only has a minimal downtime for warmages that don't heavily train in Air Lore.

If I were to cast haste on my young character with my wizard (no air lore), he's got 34 Stamina. After the duration ends, his Stamina would be reduced to 25/34 (25% of 34 = 8.5, rounded up to 9). A second immediate follow up cast would put him down to 16/34 Stamina.

This should keep people from simply spamming Haste over and over again on themselves or on others. The spell still remains useful and has some cost to using it and requires dedication in Air Lore to reduce the cost of Stamina. On my wizard, the few times I do utilize Haste, 4 or 5 casts in a row when escorting someone between Solhaven and the Landing, I'm won't punished with a large hit to mana (such as the current suggested change to haste would do) which means I have a much greater chance to survive the run because I have mana to use! Yeah!

For those warmages, they can still get through a slew of casts before they run into trouble of being out of Stamina since they'd have to balance any maneuvers they use plus Haste on top of it. I don't know....just an idea.

-Drumpel

>How does Immolate not fit that description? Roundtime is king when it comes to disabling and the disabling version of Immolate deals a lot of it. There are a huge number of creatures which are immune to a lot of different disablers (201, 214, 410, stuns, knockdowns, etc) compared to any that are immune to 519.

By disablers, I'm largely referring to mass area disablers, because it doesn't matter how slowly you cast if the room is immobile. That is something clerics, empaths, and sorcerers can achieve via 316 or 135. These professions also largely hunt from guarded stance, so having things disabled isn't nearly as important for them as for wizards.

>You don't have to stand around for 29 seconds. I know this may be difficult to realize, but you can actually cast any spell with 3 seconds of castRT. And if it's an attack spell, it can even kill a target.

Have you tried standing in front of a not disabled sentry, fetish master, or Grimswarm swarm and tried casting for 9-12 seconds for a single kill? Please test that and let me know how it works out for you. In contrast, a single 3 second cast of any appropriate cleric, empath, or sorcerer spell is pretty much guaranteed a kill with the right training and gear (enhancives).

>>I'd be perfectly happy for you to move 519 to 917, except I'm pretty sure that would be turned down because then there would be zero reason to train in the 500's.

Except for 503, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 511, 513, 517, 518, 520, and 540.

So, I had a question about Cone of Elements:

Are fire and water attuned wizards just getting hosed on this one?

Water will use Minor Cold (1709), Fire will use Minor Fire (906), Earth will use Hurl Boulder (510), Lightning will use Major Shock (510), and Air will use a new high damage factor bolt with vacuum criticals.

GameMaster Estild

The DFs on Minor Cold and Minor Fire are much lower than Hurl Boulder and Major Shock. I'm assuming the air bolt will have a similar DF to 910 and 510, but if it's around the same as the minor bolts, this applies there, too. I don't think there will be a variable mana cost involved based on the bolts used, so is there some other basic difference between the versions of this spell that I'm missing?

Also, for anyone curious, this is the quote I've referenced a couple of times about bolts having different effects (and this could be what differentiates the versions of this spell, and I'm open to that depending on what they are):

...and any extra effects implemented from the ELR can also potentially trigger for spells like Minor Fire (906).

GameMaster Estild

That's from the initial post on 8/26 about the upcoming changes for 502, 506, 513, 515, 518, 909, 925 and 950.

How about giving us full bolt AS from any stance... since 99.99999% of wizards (at least at cap), just auto-stance back down to guarded while in cast RT.



~Whirlin

>I guess wizards also don't train MjE ranks for higher bolt AS (513), or stronger haste (506), or more defense (503...nope, only for more CS for 519...

Are you being facetious here? I can't really tell. But no, since 513 bonus caps at level, there is no reason to train beyond 100 ranks for it. I actually don't train in 500's for stronger haste. Beyond 100 ranks for level 100 (or like level training), 905 also increases defense and Wizard spell ranks have the greatest marginal effect on enchanting as well.

How about we move Rapid Fire to the 930 slot and we merge Familiar Gate with 920? Like if you CHANNEL 920 it acts as Familiar Gate. Let's face it, Familiar Gate, while nice, isn't really all that great. Same goes for 920, while it's a nice and a cute spell and all it's kind of in a high level slot for what it does. It should have been a base wizard ability to be honest. But merging Call Familiar and Familiar Gate would at least help boost Call Familiar's standing for being in a 20 slot.

Now with Rapid Fire in the wizard circle's 30th level slot we can go ahead and either give it a 60 second non-stackable duration with 1 second castRT or 30 second non-stackable duration with no castRT.

A level 30 pure circle spell is supposed to be really powerful, more so than a major spell circle.

I was ready to jump on the 540 proposal when I thought you were offering no castRT, but a 30 second duration for 40 mana while still having a 1 second castRT is a bit much.

Don't forget the 935 and 940 slots are still empty also if there is a way to remove the castRT from Rapid Fire or increase the duration beyond 30 seconds.

>being the only profession with two exclusive spell lists is a huge benefit to wizardry as a whole.

How do you figure that? How does my wizard having sole access to the major elemental list benefit him compared to my empath who shares his major spirit circle?

<All pures train spell ranks pretty evenly, especially at postcap. Wizards are not paying "more" for the benefit of using 519. The same reasons to use 519 will continue to exist after it's <adjusted.

Sorry, Estild, but why would wizards overtrain 500s the way CS casters overtrain their primary circles if not to use immolate? Bolting wizards keep 500s/400s equal to level. CS wizards overtrain 500s, keep 400s equal to level up to 75 ranks, and tank 900s. You did know that, didn't you? Please tell me you were aware of how the class you're fiddling with actually trains.

<Rapid Fire isn't being removed. You can continue to use it after the change. In fact, the goal is to make it more of a "panic button" instead of an always active effect. As for 519, attack <spells are not panic buttons. It's one or the other. After the update, you can also continue to use it when your "core bolts have failed and [you're] stuck and low on mana and can't cough <cough to get more because [you] need spirit to bolt".

Anything for pure bolters? I mean, our spells are pretty boring and inefficient. Could we get some changes here before we turn rapid fire into a situational use spell?

<This is completely false. First, for Immolate, it will be just as effective as other high level warding spells that other casters have used for many, many years and remained effective (and <no, those spells don't require 240 to be effective). Wizards also have the option to combine it with Rapid Fire if needed. Just because it's not going to outkill kill a target with a single <cast well over a majority of the time does in no way mean it's "broken and has been replaced with nothing". That's rhetoric and completely unreasonable. You're not even trying to engage in <a dialog. As for Rapid Fire, it was never a "spec". It didn't even require any specialized training that a normal wizard, or more specifically a bolting wizard, wouldn't be training. It was <simply a spell that was being abused in many cases to have 100% uptime. For a majority of wizards, they didn't use the spell with 100% uptime and the impact of a cooldown will have a <minimal impact on them as such. If a 29 second cooldown at postcap is too much and/or you don't want to pay the increased mana cost penalty for recasting it while on cooldown, there is the <540 option. For Haste, we're not ready to release any details over that, but warmages are going to be completely fine.

Again, rapid shock is broken by any move away from 0 RT. 901 is not strong enough to be useful beyond the very low end in its current form. Regardless of whether or not you think 901 should stand on its own or whether rapid shock was overpowered and needed fixing, to say that the spec is not broken is inaccurate. You will no longer see rapid shock mages without 0 RT. And that's a fact.

When I say "replaced with nothing" I have explained to you in-depth my reasoning. You clearly feel that bolt spells are fine the way they are. I disagree. And none of your rhetoric is going to change my mind on that. Only working on a proper wizard class review will do that. And as I've told you before, I'd be very interested in fixing rapid fire, haste, and immolation as part of that review. However, if your position is that making those fixes is beyond the scope of the ELR while breaking those spells down remains a part of it, then my answer is I'm not sticking around for it.

Bolts are not fine. I did as requested and provided the numbers. There is no reason to use lesser bolt spells at my level of hunting as mana is the only constraint aside from immunity, the rare extreme vulnerability (trolls) and environmental hazards (explosive gas, water, etc.) to strongly encourage using a weaker bolt spell. This results in the same boring and one-dimensional scenario you listed as the primary motivator for nerfing the big 3. "Viable"? Certainly. Enjoyable? Not even close.

~Taverkin

<Just a guess, but probably because your knew your original statement was wrong. The susceptible targes of 516 or 519 is moot. The statement that wizards only train up MjE ranks for Immolate <is completely false.

Is it? Then how do you explain me? I don't overtrain MjE because I only use 516, which allows me to choose the path of least resistance.

Immo wizards ALWAYS overtrain MjE because they need to take down every target and their CS would be inadequate to do so if they didn't overtrain MjE.

Will you please log in and play a wizard some time? Holay mackeral! This is incredible!

~Taverkin

LADYFLEUR:

In contrast, a single 3 second cast of any appropriate cleric, empath, or sorcerer spell is pretty much guaranteed a kill with the right training and gear (enhancives).

This is pure nonsense. Cleric here. For those who think 317 is guaranteed death, you are badly mistaken. 317 has a 0% instant kill rate. It relies on criticals, just like bolts. You hit leg, arm, or hand, forget death, and chest or abdomen usually won't result in death either. That's assuming you're fighting something corporeal and otherwise prone to critical kills. I'd take 519 any day for the 2 extra mana, because it will apparently be similar in crit potential, but with instant-death chance to boot. Not a bad deal, if you ask me.

My only instant death option is 302, and that chance caps out at 5% when channeled on very high end rolls and more lore training than I have (and I actually 2x lore). It's more like 3% in normal circumstances. Meanwhile, the other 97% of the time, you're not dealing that much damage. To compare, a 5% kill-chance is what you get with a mere 150 endroll and 40 ranks of fire lore in the proposed 519, and it goes up from there.

In practice, I often use 317 CHANNELed in stance offensive with both hands free and a charge of 340 (sometimes against a partially disabled opponent), and it still usually doesn't result in death, even if I'm underhunting 5 levels. Certainly not nearly often enough to call it "pretty much guaranteed". It's a very good start, though, as I can finish within 1-3 casts of 302, channeled. At (horror!) 3 sec hard RT each in stance offensive (I could cast from behind my twig in stance guarded but that would usually take longer). I could also probably finish through attrition with a second cast of 317 or maybe 312 but why waste the mana.

And sure, my personal crit kill rate on 317 will improve some as I train up religion lore... but so does immolation's crit kill (plus instant-death) rate with fire lore.

Maybe the grass is always greener, but at least make an effort to be somewhat accurate when you look at the other side.

>Will you please log in and play a wizard some time?

Only if you realize there are more than just 4x capped wizards who play. I have two wizards(38 and 55) and both use Mana Leech 2-3 times a hunt and neither has ever cast immolate. Ever. So yeah, they train in MjE primarily for Leech CS and for 513 bolt AS help.

>Maybe the grass is always greener, but at least make an effort to be somewhat accurate when you look at the other side.

I am being accurate. My post-cap cleric with maxed CS and max CS enhancives is almost always guaranteed a kill with 317. My post-cap wizard with max AS enhancives/spell boosters will not achieve the same death without 3-4 bolts. CS completely bypasses EBP and goes straight to instant death if you ward the target with a high enough margin.

By the way, looking at the "other side", I play every other pure profession. I love what GM Estild has done for spiritual pures. At the same time, the spiritual pure bias is so strongly against wizards, one would have to be blind to miss it. All we're asking, if we can't get ANY love, is that we don't receive irrational hate (wreckage). Every other pure and semi profession is far more powerful than the proposed setup for updated wizards.

>For immo/CS builds, if you're in a certain society and use spirit regen enhancives, you could even have basically 100% uptime still with 540. I'm surprised you guys who want 100% uptime still aren't all over this.

This is false. I am in said society and have max spirit regen enhancives, and 519 in its current incarnation still isn't deadly enough to use all the time in any post-cap hunting capacity (the Scatter, warcamps). In contrast, 240/1115 or 240/317 are deadly enough to have 100% uptime.

<Only if you realize there are more than just 4x capped wizards who play. I have two wizards(38 and 55) and both use Mana Leech 2-3 times a hunt and neither has ever cast immolate. Ever. So <yeah, they train in MjE primarily for Leech CS and for 513 bolt AS help.

Then you and I are on the same page. As I understand it, this tangent started with the assumption that wizards OVERTRAIN MjE for more than just immolate. That's not true. Conventional wisdom is to train 500s equal to level to cap the benefits from 513 and, of course, so that you maintain a decent CS to use mana leech. It is not, however, recommended to overtrain MjE in order to increase CS as it is for primarily CS-based casters because the only spell we have that is worth doing so is immolate, which is mostly limited to near-cap and post-cap due to mana cost and training requirements.

~Taverkin