I agree with this 100%. Other classes have like a 150 point AS advantage over us under normal spell circumstances at cap. I can apply many of those spells with scrolls, but jeez. Not whining too much. I can still kick some butt, but closing that gap by say 50 points would be nice. Like SHAYD said. Maybe bond or cmans is the answer.

It also occurs to me that one of the reasons that 3x CMANs has so long been denied is that it might unbalance things like Damage Reduction and Maneuver rolls (offensive and defensive), to which I might just suggest a severely diminished return be applied to CMAN ranks beyond 202 for those mechanics.

*Mohrgan should've included an analysis of and potential solutions to the downsides off his thesis, as anyone who's ever taken a rhetoric course would've have remembered to do*

And they use all those spells we are talking about that we shouldn't have to use as well as one of a kind equipment. Having equipment worth 100 mil a pop to increase your AS 50 more isn't the point.

I've also preached 3x CM for years. Where CM is used in other formulas, it can be capped at 2x. This is already done with other skills, like perception in the hurling formula for example.

Kerl

I'd love 3x CM. Wouldn't really be able to afford it before cap, but it would make a big difference after that.

My Warrior is 28 mil xp in Shattered and I haven't maxed out 425 bonus, long way from it in fact, probably looking at somewhere around 35 million perhaps.

>I completely agree and would love cman bond/specialization & 3x CM or equivalent. Spell casting is not what I ever envisioned Roblar doing (exact opposite), but useful martial skills are done.

I really am not looking forward to getting so much exp that spells are all I have left either. I just didnt want extreme post capped warriors clouding the issue of what I was trying to say. Hypothetically if you use every scroll, have all the spells and an enormous amount of post cap exp to do it all isnt the same to me as saying semis outswing warriors by a hefty amount as a general statement. I would imagine the list of warriors who put up all the scroll spells and know 425 is such a minute amount of players(if any?) and the upkeep on such would be pretty insane.

Paladins would likely have lore that adds to zealot AS boost and takes away the dangerous(?) ds drop. Im not sure if lore effects any of the other AS boosts, maybe I just notice the craziest well geared paladins but they all seem to have about a 700 AS at cap. Maybe they're the Jeril and Roblar version for paladins and have 30mil+ exp for all I know.

50-100 AS boost for warriors would be good enough for me! I really like the 3x cm idea as it gives something to train in other than spells.

I dont know if rogues would or not but it wouldnt bother me if they did. Im not concerned with those sneaky thieving types! Should toss the lot of them under the jail.

>> I really am not looking forward to getting so much exp that spells are all I have left either. I just didnt want extreme post capped warriors clouding the issue of what I was trying to say. Hypothetically if you use every scroll, have all the spells and an enormous amount of post cap exp to do it all isnt the same to me as saying semis outswing warriors by a hefty amount as a general statement. I would imagine the list of warriors who put up all the scroll spells and know 425 is such a minute amount of players(if any?) and the upkeep on such would be pretty insane.

I completely agree with that. My 28 mil Warrior in Shatter is a mutant build as far as I'm concerned. Warriors definitely should not need outside spells (or 425) to have a decent AS. That is counter to the very concept of the profession. I did it just because it was mutant and I wanted to see what it was like.

3x CM is one solution
Another option would be a new Weapon Spec type CM just for warriors that gives 10AS per rank, but has a level requirement on it so that you don't end up with low level characters training it. In fact I would not mind seeing both 3x CM and a very expensive +10AS per rank Cman. Make it something only a post cap warrior could train.

>So if something along these lines was implemented would you also remove the ability for warriors to learn Minor elemental spells entirely as a trade-off?

How about instead just tripling or higher the cost of the spells so I can still wear minor elemental in the rift as a spell I could know but dont.

Spells for a Warrior is a post cap thing, and even then, not until after all the normal fighting skills are done. As I mentioned, I consider it a mutant path, but I wouldn't take that away from a warrior any more than I'd take War Wizard away from wizards, or Warpaths away from Empaths. The difference between the three, is that two of those are viable from day one, with the warrior, however, spells are really only affordable after cap.

I've got 41 ranks of MnE, and 120 MnS, and it's taken me to 27.2 million xp to get there, which is closing in on four times cap. This is definitely not something a typical capped warrior is going to have, not for a long time at least. It will take millions more xp to finish out the MnE spell ranks to cap the benefit of 425.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really digging my mutant warrior and the fact that he has those spells, I specifically wanted him to get capped in spells just to see what it would be like and I'm not regretting it, but I think there should definitely be something available for warriors that doesn't require going 5x cap to complete.

Well, and those 101 extra CMPs would be a bit of a boon. Instead of say ~6 functional CMs (not including CMs only taken to one or two ranks for prerequisite purposes), that number would be closer to nine to ten. It leaves a lot more room for warriors to diversify their skills, rather than the bread and butter skills we're basically regulated to with only 202 CMPs. I don't think it's that gamebreaking, really.


-james, bristenn's player

---

You think to yourself, "FFF-"
A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!
You evade the bolt by a hair!

What they should do is give warriors 3x cman in the test instance and let some of us go to town.

There were too many questions being reasd in the chat/stream, Warrior AS wasn't really discussed further as the question was only about 3x CM.

I'd think the alternative of using CMANs (bond, specialization rewrites and some new ones) is both more likely and feasible than a rewrite of the training skills.

3x CM has been denied a bunch of times. That doesn't mean it isn't a good solution. Reallocation was denied about thousands of times, then suddenly it was normal, thanks to the vision of GM Warden. Eventually someone will see why 3x CM makes sense.

On a side note, you can see the side effects of changes, and often they are unintended consequences. For example, let's take a look at semi-dux. I personally don't think it should have happened, because semi's have a ton of options, where warriors really don't. But setting that argument aside for a moment, what were the unintended side effects? Besides mutant empaths, capped warriors are becoming semi's. And why wouldn't they? When you get to about 3x cap, you have all the TPs you need to learn spells up to 430 without sacrificing a typical training plan. And with semi-dux not being that much worse than the weakened full redux, the trade off is pretty attractive.

And yet, most warriors doing it would quickly tell you that they'd rather train up 3x CM instead, or train in some other physical skill, but what's left to train in? The answer is nothing.

Kerl

I think I'd rather see something to train in. As much as I love the gimmies that we effectively got via CML, SML and AML, I'd rather have to train that ugly, third rank in CM to gain a bit more AS. We have a plethora of set up maneuvers, and I'm not sure I need another one made with a pommel instead of a shield etc. It would be kind of cool though, and I bet some people could come up with some good ones.

The problem though is that warriors are outgunned. The only way we excel is via ginormous expenditures in gear. It's as simple as that. For as long as the game has existed, this has been the case. Square = gear. Pure = no fancy gear required. So since we have to stand around with our $#%@s in our hands waiting for the counter attack, I'd like to see a little bit of extra oomph to the attack strength. even at an absurd cost.

Kerl

...though, I did just suddenly remember that Weapon Bonding has some of those effects already. Inconsistent as they may be, but they're there, blowin' my arguments out of the water a little. OOPS. I've admittedly had it set on 5 for yeeeeears.

-james, bristenn's player

---

You think to yourself, "FFF-"
A giant white bunny hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you!
You evade the bolt by a hair!

Yep. I asked it Friday night as "Kerl has requested for some time if Warriors could get 3x CM with a capped CMAN approach" and Mestys responded it wasn't going to happen. It looks like it got asked Saturday or later Friday again in bringing AS in line with Paladins and Bards and was similarly denied.

This is a good conversation. I'd also add that I'm not a mutant build yet and Kerl explained it well, but I plan on doing it far sooner than most and maybe in lieu of 3x dodge.

-Geijon

By: KRAKII
Re: Higher CS
On: 7/21/2009
At: 9:20:52 AM
##: 8769

Unfortunately, the GS4 conversion was a great time to totally divorce the CS-casting system from Spell Research and turn it into a double-trainable skill (for those professions who should, by class design, be the ones most likely to double-train in that skill)...
...and the GMs walked right past it.

I suggested this back when the deICE was going on--because that was also a great time to do it, "gigantic changes in mechanics" and all--so that we would then have three different kind of combat skills:
- weapon skills
- bolt skills
- warding skills

Some professions could double in one, some could double in more than one, some--maybe Semis?--could even double in all three... but of course, the training point costs would be astronomical.

And, of course, that would just be for the actual attack skill. What you were attacking with would be something else entirely. (Learning the actual spells.)

.

I would've done it as:
+ the Minor lists being all the attack spells (and open to Squares, at single-train grade in Spell Research), so this would enable Sorcerers to get access to, basically, three lists of attacks [in keeping with them being the big wreckers of the place];
+ the Major lists having all the defense spells and self-cast spells [like Targetting, Bravery, Heroism, RapidFire, whatever], so the pure-Realm casters would reap the benefits of that;
* separated "mana gain" from "level gain" [they actually did do this one!].

For the skills:
+ decide whether any of your Semis are going to bolt- or warding-based, and allow them access there at comparable costs to their weapon skills (maybe one Semi [Bards?] would be Warding-based [could double warding/single bolt], one [Rangers?] would be bolt-based [Flare, Web?] [could double bolt/single warding], and one [Paladins?] would be more physical [could only single both bolt & warding]?) where applicable;
+ allow Squares to single-train in bolts, warding, spell research, and mana; allow bolt-based pure classes [Wizards] to cheaply train in bolts, significantly more expensively train in warding; Sorcerers could conceivably double-train in both but it would be kind of expensive (this would be one of those "do you want to be a bolting caster or a warding caster?" kinds of decisions); other pures would need to have a design decision made: are they supposed to be bolters or warders? Set training costs appropriately.

That way you could have someone (like, ohhh, a Sorcerer) choose to only learn ten or a dozen spells in order to get the attack forms, and then fully double in both Warding Attacks and Bolt Attacks and be a just horrendous killing machine.

.

But did they do it? Either time? Nnnn--ooooooo. :(

So we still have issues of Warding attacks being tied to Spell Research, which means that someone who only single-trains [any Square, most Semis] at best is screwed if they're casting from the same list as someone who can triple-train.

---

And a follow-up a week later:

---

By: KRAKII
Re: Higher CS
On: 7/28/2009
At: 8:34:59 AM
##: 8788

Re-visiting this issue briefly because I was reminded of something else last night when I was leafing through "Creatures & Treasures" volumes 1, 2, and 3. (I admit, mostly I was reading the "Most Potent"-and "Artifact"-level goodies. :)

And that was the whole "multi-train in a skill" issue. The final thing that I would've done in the game redesign--either one of them! [deICE, GS4 conversion]--would be to, once and for all, decide what the deal is with multi-train capability. Romulus, way back when, was talking to Sorcerers about things like Mana Share or Aimed Spells and how the assumption was that if you could double-train in it, then it was part of the profession design that you should be training (at least single) in it.
Except no-one had ever TOLD any of the players about that.

So I would have done two things:
1) Clearly delineate what's what with multi-training.
"If you can triple in it, then the assumption is that you will be singled in it; you may commonly double in it; you might (by choosing to specialize) triple in it. This is a core capability of your profession, and you will be assumed to be a mutant beyond the pale of intended design if you do not at least single in it."
"If you can double in it, then the assumption is that you will dabble in it [.5x or more]; you may commonly single in it; you might double in it."
"If you can only single in it, then the assumption is that your profession doesn't care diddly about the skill; you might dabble in it [anything up to 1x] but will never be any damn good at it."

.

2) Resolve the whole issue of singled being pretty darn good. (Krakii was rolled up with the premise that from levels 30 through 40 she would be exactly as good with her weapons as a Fighter of the same level... and 30+ level fighters were as common as the proverbial virgin with a bag of gold crossing the Empire and arriving with both.)
If you can triple in a skill, then your ranks are on a 6/5/4/3/2/1 progression.
If you can double in a skill, your ranks follow the 5/4/3/2/1 progression that we know.
If you can only single in a skill, your ranks are on a 4/3/2/1 progression.

Forty ranks would be worth 180 skill, or 140 skill, or 100 skill. (Same number of ranks; different skill amount.)

Whereas three people who "max trained" at the same level might have 150 ranks, 100 ranks, and 50 ranks. Their skill values would be 300, 200, and 110. [I threw a bit of a bone to the single-trainers.] By golly, but doesn't that look damn nearly like 3x, 2x, and 1x?!? For, respectively, "triple" and "double" and "single"? Well, damn.

The biggest reason to do this would be combat. The problem that GemStone has always had is that they did not truly implement RoleMaster combat training, wherein you trained in specific weapons (or for boltcasters, specific Directed Spells [your skill for "lightning bolt" might be very different from your skill for "fireball"]) rather than in types of weapons; the cost was assigned by type ["all 1HEdged weapons cost this much"] and then you trained in specifics ["I learn dagger and short sword and longsword and falchion, one rank each."].

This meant that Semi professions started out as good as a Fighter with their weapons, and then got spell-goodies on top. Pure CASTING professions could get to be as good as a Fighter with their weapons, plus defenses, plus disablers; Krakii was one, for crying out loud.
What it should have been was "Fighters start out damn good... and then the rest of y'all are playing catch-up", rather than "by golly, we better implement CMans so that Fighters actually have something."

Imagine if the skill costs were such that Fighters commonly singled in all weapons and often doubled in several [or just doubled in one or two], and Semis very rarely were any more than Singled. Fighters would have the highest Weapon capabilities, and Semis would be using their magics to "catch up"...
...kind of like how it should have been. :)