I have been meaning to write a post covering the HSN additions to the sorcerer circle: covering what has been done and what is left to do. I have been reminded of this every time I look through the angry posts in response to the wizard nerfs since a small number of those respondents have insisted HSN made sorcery much more powerful just prior to a thorough whipping of the wizard class. In general, I believe that all of the most powerful sorcerer spells are compromised in some way and, in particular, I do not believe HSN added a lot of power to the sorcerer profession. This post will recycle some of my responses to what I perceived to be false claims in the argument on the wizard board but it is primarily about sorcerers and HSN.
I have a little institutional memory on sorcerer mechanics since I started my current sorcerer character right when Gemstone opened on AOL. Prior to that, I had dabbled in Gemstone using other online portals and I have some familiarity with the Rolemaster rules Gemstone was based on. There are a few other people who bring up ancient history in this forum but I think it has limited usefulness. I want to mention two things. First, one of the earliest serious discussions about sorcerers and class comparison I remember reading on a forum was concerned with the fact that wizards have two unique spell circles while sorcerers only have one. Furthermore, it is sometimes said to be a development principle that the power of spell circles runs top to bottom: Profession, Major, Minor. This means sorcerers are stuck with two circles in the lowest category. Manny puts it this way in his sorcerer guide from the 1990s, "You will not be as good with spirit spells as a cleric, or as good with elemental spells as a wizard." This brings me to my second point, sorcerers are a "hybrid" class, whatever that means. In both Rolemaster and the current game lore, being a hybrid spellcaster is what gives sorcerers access to the singular destructive power of their base circle. The Official History says, "Though all the houses were theoretically equal, most acknowledged the Faendryl as the natural leaders of the race, though some did so more grudgingly than others. No other house had mastered both spirit and elemental magic as well as had the Faendryl Elves." Moving to mechanics, you could make an argument that the sorcerer circle should be an exceptionally powerful profession circle to balance out the lack of a major circle and in keeping with game lore. It might even be that the sorcerer circle was mechanically more powerful than others prior to nerfs that came around, if I recall correctly, in the early 2000s -- Dark Catalyst (719) was nerfed particularly hard. As it stands, I think the sorcerer circle and the sorcerer profession are balanced pretty well and I think the GMs believe this as well. Or, to avoid a discussion of what "balanced" means, I will say that I do not think the sorcerer circle has a noticeable mechanical advantage over other profession circles. Perhaps, the idea of the awesome power of the sorcerer circle has moved fully IC, it's a kind of thematic power attached to the gruesome spell descriptions. It's certainly the case that Minor Summoning (725) is a roleplaying tool before and well above any other usefulness.
Hot Summer Nights 2015 (HSN) included a review of the sorcerer circle and sorcerous lores. It was probably a bad decision to include the sorcerer circle review in HSN since other players derisively called HSN "Hot Sorcerer Nights" due to the resulting imbalance of upgrades to other classes. Looking at the upgrades, it's also important to note that a spell review is different from a lore review. Removing a useless spell and replacing it with something interesting is always going to add more power, versatility, or whatever to a profession than a lore effect. Gemstone development so far has kept lore benefits modest. Lores sound cool but the resulting power does not match up with the feel of lores or their TP cost, especially at 2x. Let's look at some development.
HSN sorcerer development can be split into spell development, lore and skill development, and quality of life development. Of these three categories, as a postcap player, I find the quality of life changes to be the most important.
Spell development: Pestilence (716) released, Grasp of the Grave (709) released, Corrupt Essence (703) given open cast, Animate Dead corpse explosion added, Quake and ability to knock critters over from adjacent room lost
Lore/Skill development: Mana Disruption (702) can strip a spell, Disintegrate (705) bolt version and chance to weaken weapons, Mind Jolt (706) chance to jump targets, Maelstrom (710) increased damage, Sacrifice given significant lore benefits (avoid spirit loss)
Quality of Life: Mana Disruption (702) shows all damage, Pain (711) shows damage, Scroll Infusion (714) gives xp, Eye Spy (707) standard duration and refreshable, Minor Summoning (725) easier to use, Animate Dead (730) easier to use
In terms of raw hunting power, the two new spells and open-cast Corrupt Essence have attracted the most attention. They are all useful, especially Pestilence (716) if it stuns an inconvenient attacker but they have not changed my hunting in Nelemar. Your experience may vary. The universal point I would stick to is that these spells are not wildly more powerful than others in the game.
The lore improvements require the same high seeds and operate on the same slot machine mechanics as other lore benefits in the game with the exception of the interesting ability unlocks accessible through Necromancy Lore: Sacrifice and Disintegrate bolt. New abilities you can rely on are great. Secondary effects with a percentage chance are interesting but unreliable. Slowed down or not, Gemstone hunting goes at a quick pace and unreliable effects are not game changers.
All of this said, my thesis is that the HSN sorcerer improvements are a great addition in terms of style and mechanical benefits broadly conceived but they have not made sorcerers "much more powerful" as has sometimes been claimed.
My only complaint, and it's a serious one, is that prior to these HSN changes the best mechanical training path for a sorcerer included ~150 necromancy ranks and 50 demonology. This was the advice given in Whirlin's guide written before HSN. The HSN changes have set this advice in solid stone since necromancy lore unlocks the new abilities, the reliable effects, mentioned above. In a mechanical sense, the idea of the sorcerer as demonologist is extremely weak when compared to the necromancer. Things would be a lot more interesting if we had better demonology benefits and a difficult mechanical choice between our two lores. The HSN benefits were so overwhelmingly lopsided toward necromancy, in fact, that I was starting to believe they were building up to a Major Summoning release to balance things out.
So, where to go from here?
1. Demonology Lore needs a review to create balance with necromancy
2. Torment (718) could use a review; I've found some use for it but it's largely a source of entertainment and death
3. Minor Summoning (725) could use some new demons at the least or greater mechanical usefulness
4. Spell slot 750 remains unused
With this rather long post, I've finally gotten around to regurgitating my loosely organized thoughts about sorcerer development onto the screen. My own biases in terms of roleplay and character development are evident but I hope I have made some useful general points. I have surely missed or glossed over a lot of other important issues and welcome any input to correct this.
Silvean's Player
SILVEAN
DOUG
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/02/2016 02:26 PM CST
Good post, thanks for sharing Silvean.
Doug
Doug
GS4-ESTILD
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/02/2016 03:13 PM CST
| Silvean's Player |
| 1. Demonology Lore needs a review to create balance with necromancy |
| 2. Torment (718) could use a review; I've found some use for it but it's largely a source of entertainment and death |
| 3. Minor Summoning (725) could use some new demons at the least or greater mechanical usefulness |
| 4. Spell slot 750 remains unused |
1. I do agree that the current Sorcerous Lore implementation does heavily favor Necromancy. Future updates (nothing specific planned at this time) will hopefully make Demonology more competitive.
2. Torment is a difficult spell to address. It actually can be quite useful and mana efficient for non-capped sorcerers, where you can typically afford to stand around. I considered some updates for it during HSN, but couldn't come up with anything that was worth pursuing.
3. Pet/summoning spells in GemStone are difficult to balance. On one hand, you have something like familiars that don't offer any mechanical advantage, but a lot of utility, then you have lesser demons which offer a bit of both. It's doubtful we'll add a host of new demons, but as with the Arashan, we'll continue to add new ones over time as appropriate.
4. Completing level 50 profession spells is an ongoing goal, mostly pending a good design for said slot.
GameMaster Estild
GS4-KONACON
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/02/2016 03:14 PM CST
I didn't see ANYTHING about animates exploding in there and I am offended. I'ma take away your toy and play with it all by myself.
~ Konacon
~ Konacon
DAID
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/03/2016 07:48 AM CST
Excellent post as usual, Silvean.
I agree that not much of my playing style has changed as a result of HSN as a sorcerer. I didn't even use the FIXSKILL. On the other hand, my internet was bad enough that hunting near cap was undesirable, and it's only been the last few weeks I've been hunting much with my sorcerer for the first time in about two years since I recently moved. But also as you say, the tweaks, fixes, and improvements to sorcerers are really great overall. Using 730 easily with dead people is the one I'm making the most use out of so far.
Previously when this topic came up, you and I disagreed a bit about the mechanical benefits of Necromancy vs. Demonology lore, but I think we now fully agree, even to the point that I also wondered if 750 was on the horizon this summer.
I find Torment rather foolish. I figured with the removal of the Quake room-away stuff Torment was an easy-money spell for HSN and was surprised it got skipped. We have several spells that don't work for bounties or evidently getting loot, which might be a thought for a general overhaul (http://www.tinyheroes.com/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/The%20Elemental%20Confluence%20-%20Hunting%20Area/thread/1761652)
Indeed, I experimented with Torment outside the Marsh Keep (mid-40s), but as soon as I realized how few bounties it was useful for (unless you stay in the room) I stopped bothering with it.
It was snuck in there...
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
I agree that not much of my playing style has changed as a result of HSN as a sorcerer. I didn't even use the FIXSKILL. On the other hand, my internet was bad enough that hunting near cap was undesirable, and it's only been the last few weeks I've been hunting much with my sorcerer for the first time in about two years since I recently moved. But also as you say, the tweaks, fixes, and improvements to sorcerers are really great overall. Using 730 easily with dead people is the one I'm making the most use out of so far.
| Silvean |
| The HSN benefits were so overwhelmingly lopsided toward necromancy, in fact, that I was starting to believe they were building up to a Major Summoning release to balance things out. |
Previously when this topic came up, you and I disagreed a bit about the mechanical benefits of Necromancy vs. Demonology lore, but I think we now fully agree, even to the point that I also wondered if 750 was on the horizon this summer.
| Silvean |
| 2. Torment (718) could use a review; I've found some use for it but it's largely a source of entertainment and death |
| Estild |
| 2. Torment is a difficult spell to address. It actually can be quite useful and mana efficient for non-capped sorcerers, where you can typically afford to stand around. I considered some updates for it during HSN, but couldn't come up with anything that was worth pursuing. |
I find Torment rather foolish. I figured with the removal of the Quake room-away stuff Torment was an easy-money spell for HSN and was surprised it got skipped. We have several spells that don't work for bounties or evidently getting loot, which might be a thought for a general overhaul (http://www.tinyheroes.com/forums/GemStone%20IV/Hunting%20and%20Combat/The%20Elemental%20Confluence%20-%20Hunting%20Area/thread/1761652)
Indeed, I experimented with Torment outside the Marsh Keep (mid-40s), but as soon as I realized how few bounties it was useful for (unless you stay in the room) I stopped bothering with it.
| Silvean |
| Animate Dead corpse explosion added |
| Konacon |
| I didn't see ANYTHING about animates exploding in there and I am offended. I'ma take away your toy and play with it all by myself. |
It was snuck in there...
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
INIQUITY
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 04:42 AM CST
<<First, one of the earliest serious discussions about sorcerers and class comparison I remember reading on a forum was concerned with the fact that wizards have two unique spell circles while sorcerers only have one. Furthermore, it is sometimes said to be a development principle that the power of spell circles runs top to bottom: Profession, Major, Minor. This means sorcerers are stuck with two circles in the lowest category. Manny puts it this way in his sorcerer guide from the 1990s, "You will not be as good with spirit spells as a cleric, or as good with elemental spells as a wizard." This brings me to my second point, sorcerers are a "hybrid" class, whatever that means. In both Rolemaster and the current game lore, being a hybrid spellcaster is what gives sorcerers access to the singular destructive power of their base circle.>> - SILVEAN
One of the more arcane points with this is that Rolemaster hybrids are weaker than pures with spell research, but they have the flexibility of choosing from both [Minor] and [Major] spell circles. The language is still written that way in the "Magic Guide" document even though it has always been wrong. Similarly ancient wording exists in other documents long bereft of its original context. What stands out to me historically is that the sorcerer profession has never fit its formal definition, which would include (among other things) nothing related to necromancy or demonology. I think of the profession class as a catch-all for all of the purely violent and "dark arts" magic.
The hybrid concept is ill-defined at its root, so it suffers from the hollowness of false depth. Terry Amthor even wrote something to the effect of: "I don't know what we were thinking, the idea makes no sense." If it were my call we would adopt the DragonRealms concept of "unnaturally" crossing incompatible forms of energy which causes exceptionally violent reactions. There would be different kinds of sorcery depending on what was involved, with a spectrum running from "(arguably) neutral magic" to "the black arts." Violent backlash from combining dispel magic is sorcery with a small "s", whereas the other extreme is transforming yourself into some demon-lich-thing.
As it stands, the dark arts or sorcery uses something like a dozen kinds of energy throughout the lore, including extra-planar sources. It makes little sense to call that "elemental-spiritual hybrid." What we would emphasize instead is that sorcery is inherently dangerous, which is why I will always have a soft spot for Torment.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
One of the more arcane points with this is that Rolemaster hybrids are weaker than pures with spell research, but they have the flexibility of choosing from both [Minor] and [Major] spell circles. The language is still written that way in the "Magic Guide" document even though it has always been wrong. Similarly ancient wording exists in other documents long bereft of its original context. What stands out to me historically is that the sorcerer profession has never fit its formal definition, which would include (among other things) nothing related to necromancy or demonology. I think of the profession class as a catch-all for all of the purely violent and "dark arts" magic.
The hybrid concept is ill-defined at its root, so it suffers from the hollowness of false depth. Terry Amthor even wrote something to the effect of: "I don't know what we were thinking, the idea makes no sense." If it were my call we would adopt the DragonRealms concept of "unnaturally" crossing incompatible forms of energy which causes exceptionally violent reactions. There would be different kinds of sorcery depending on what was involved, with a spectrum running from "(arguably) neutral magic" to "the black arts." Violent backlash from combining dispel magic is sorcery with a small "s", whereas the other extreme is transforming yourself into some demon-lich-thing.
As it stands, the dark arts or sorcery uses something like a dozen kinds of energy throughout the lore, including extra-planar sources. It makes little sense to call that "elemental-spiritual hybrid." What we would emphasize instead is that sorcery is inherently dangerous, which is why I will always have a soft spot for Torment.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
SILVEAN
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 09:59 AM CST
GMs: Thanks for responding.
>Xorus Post
I like Torment too. It's very old school cool and I agree with Estild about there being some use for it in the mid-range levels. I once posted an idea about charging up Torment by killing with it before releasing a DBZ-style ultimate demon blast. As fun as that would be, it would have limited functionality except for the occasional invasion, however.
The Rolemaster roots of sorcery are interesting but I think it is possible to build a coherent IC theory for the profession on the back of current documentation. So, to be clear, I am talking about IC stuff, roleplaying stuff here. MYCHAR, my character, thinks appropriate insight into the relationship between elemental and spiritual magics is an insight into the primordial soup that created the cosmos. This is how it operates as the first step toward ripping a hole into other valences. It's also consistent with the quote about the Faendryl from the Official History above. Silvean does not believe there's a separate mental sphere of magic because it would mean there's a sphere sorcerers and the Faendryl have not mastered in union with the others. That is ridiculous and the mental sphere must be a subset of elemental magic, therefore. So, I like to write IC essays and roleplay conversations about this sort of thing in game while being careful to stress these are theories so that I will not be flatly contradicted by any future documentation.
The real open questions for me are mechanical. Is it still mechanically relevant that sorcerers are saddled with two minor circles and need to make up for this somehow with their profession circle? Will future updates to the sorcerer base, especially an eventual 750, live up to its reputation for awesome destructive power?
>Xorus Post
I like Torment too. It's very old school cool and I agree with Estild about there being some use for it in the mid-range levels. I once posted an idea about charging up Torment by killing with it before releasing a DBZ-style ultimate demon blast. As fun as that would be, it would have limited functionality except for the occasional invasion, however.
The Rolemaster roots of sorcery are interesting but I think it is possible to build a coherent IC theory for the profession on the back of current documentation. So, to be clear, I am talking about IC stuff, roleplaying stuff here. MYCHAR, my character, thinks appropriate insight into the relationship between elemental and spiritual magics is an insight into the primordial soup that created the cosmos. This is how it operates as the first step toward ripping a hole into other valences. It's also consistent with the quote about the Faendryl from the Official History above. Silvean does not believe there's a separate mental sphere of magic because it would mean there's a sphere sorcerers and the Faendryl have not mastered in union with the others. That is ridiculous and the mental sphere must be a subset of elemental magic, therefore. So, I like to write IC essays and roleplay conversations about this sort of thing in game while being careful to stress these are theories so that I will not be flatly contradicted by any future documentation.
The real open questions for me are mechanical. Is it still mechanically relevant that sorcerers are saddled with two minor circles and need to make up for this somehow with their profession circle? Will future updates to the sorcerer base, especially an eventual 750, live up to its reputation for awesome destructive power?
DOUG
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 11:39 AM CST
>> Silvean does not believe
Interesting, but. . .
I would then be curious to know Silvean's position on Arcane spells.
Doug
Interesting, but. . .
I would then be curious to know Silvean's position on Arcane spells.
Doug
SILVEAN
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 11:45 AM CST
>I would then be curious to know Silvean's position on Arcane spells.
I'm not sure but that circle doesn't claim to represent a third sphere of magic. When I try to think about something the way my character would, the claim to a third sphere is a threat.
I'm not sure but that circle doesn't claim to represent a third sphere of magic. When I try to think about something the way my character would, the claim to a third sphere is a threat.
DOUG
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 01:34 PM CST
>>the claim to a third sphere is a threat.
Understood. I always thought of the 'raw magical' nature of the Arcane circle to be something right up the sorcerer's alley.
Xorus' understanding of the minor / major situation as described is a joy to read. I would add that, in that game framework, one could pick up to 6 base lists (a base list defined how far up the spell list someone could learn it - base means all the way to the tippy top.) Imagine if the sorcerer could have Sorcerer profession, Minor Elemental, Minor Spiritual, Major Elemental and Major Spiritual lists.
Of course, training to 3x limits (perhaps) how that growth could be realized. And I'd truly love a chance to have the Arcane spell list thrown in as number 6 (or 4, for that other elemental profession).
Doug
Understood. I always thought of the 'raw magical' nature of the Arcane circle to be something right up the sorcerer's alley.
Xorus' understanding of the minor / major situation as described is a joy to read. I would add that, in that game framework, one could pick up to 6 base lists (a base list defined how far up the spell list someone could learn it - base means all the way to the tippy top.) Imagine if the sorcerer could have Sorcerer profession, Minor Elemental, Minor Spiritual, Major Elemental and Major Spiritual lists.
Of course, training to 3x limits (perhaps) how that growth could be realized. And I'd truly love a chance to have the Arcane spell list thrown in as number 6 (or 4, for that other elemental profession).
Doug
SILVEAN
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 01:50 PM CST
>Imagine if the sorcerer could have Sorcerer profession, Minor Elemental, Minor Spiritual, Major Elemental and Major Spiritual lists.
We have greater access to lore than any other class with elemental, spiritual, and the only one you could call a profession lore at affordable rates. You could read this as an indication of IC superiority or a mechanical opportunity.
Or, you could hold that the mechanical results are so unsatisfying as to be a burden except for people so postcapped they have nothing better to train in anyway. Unless my math is off, I could trade all of my lores out for 50 ranks in Dodging right now. There's definitely a mechanical argument for that even though it's not very sorcerish. Sorcerific?
We have greater access to lore than any other class with elemental, spiritual, and the only one you could call a profession lore at affordable rates. You could read this as an indication of IC superiority or a mechanical opportunity.
Or, you could hold that the mechanical results are so unsatisfying as to be a burden except for people so postcapped they have nothing better to train in anyway. Unless my math is off, I could trade all of my lores out for 50 ranks in Dodging right now. There's definitely a mechanical argument for that even though it's not very sorcerish. Sorcerific?
DOUG
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 02:00 PM CST
>>you could hold that the mechanical results are so unsatisfying as to be a burden
Yep, it's a bell-curve type argument, but the curve is smashed all the way to the right (cap). I'd like to see us find a way to spread that curve back down to level 20 / 30. But that's a whole other discussion - and not terribly central to the threat of the minor mental spell list or gap created by the arcane spell list.
Doug
Yep, it's a bell-curve type argument, but the curve is smashed all the way to the right (cap). I'd like to see us find a way to spread that curve back down to level 20 / 30. But that's a whole other discussion - and not terribly central to the threat of the minor mental spell list or gap created by the arcane spell list.
Doug
SILVEAN
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 02:38 PM CST
I think that IC stuff is better discussed IC; maybe I will write something about it in the near future since I haven't done any of that since the end of last year. A lot of the previous material is available on the wiki: https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Silvean_Rashere
I don't think they are ever going to let anyone learn spells beyond the current distribution of circles except through enhancives. It is sometimes mentioned as a postcap perk. You already know what I mean because you read these forums so closely. Still, I mean people have recommended there be a benefit to postcap training beyond TPs every 2500xp. So, they could come up with a list of postcap perks at different experience milestones and you would choose from among them with one option being non-native spell knowledge. Sounds like fun but I doubt the GMs are looking for opportunities to add even more power to the postcap population. Borrowing your ideas for why sorcerers should have access to other circles, maybe they would have some preferential cost/option for learning Major Elemental and Spiritual spells if such postcap perks ever became a reality.
With the lore system being so lackluster, I am more hopeful for some kind of special benefit or ability available through 150 or 200 ranks in a single lore as mentioned by Estild a while ago. That would liven things up and add some potential to an overall system needing development.
In fact, I would throw the overall lore system on my personal list of the most important Gemstone development projects:
1. Treasure system
2. Postcap anything to do (hunting, more training, special societies, special bounties, anything...)
3. Lore system
But the above is stuff affecting almost every profession in the game and not just sorcerers, i.e. I've definitely left the central discussion now.
I don't think they are ever going to let anyone learn spells beyond the current distribution of circles except through enhancives. It is sometimes mentioned as a postcap perk. You already know what I mean because you read these forums so closely. Still, I mean people have recommended there be a benefit to postcap training beyond TPs every 2500xp. So, they could come up with a list of postcap perks at different experience milestones and you would choose from among them with one option being non-native spell knowledge. Sounds like fun but I doubt the GMs are looking for opportunities to add even more power to the postcap population. Borrowing your ideas for why sorcerers should have access to other circles, maybe they would have some preferential cost/option for learning Major Elemental and Spiritual spells if such postcap perks ever became a reality.
With the lore system being so lackluster, I am more hopeful for some kind of special benefit or ability available through 150 or 200 ranks in a single lore as mentioned by Estild a while ago. That would liven things up and add some potential to an overall system needing development.
In fact, I would throw the overall lore system on my personal list of the most important Gemstone development projects:
1. Treasure system
2. Postcap anything to do (hunting, more training, special societies, special bounties, anything...)
3. Lore system
But the above is stuff affecting almost every profession in the game and not just sorcerers, i.e. I've definitely left the central discussion now.
INIQUITY
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/04/2016 06:27 PM CST
At some point I will have Xorus write some IC thesis elaborating a diversity of philosophical views on the intrinsic nature of magic. I think his own position is basically that there are modalities of manipulating energy, call it "evoking" versus "channeling" versus maybe "resonating", where with the substrate we usually use on this plane of existence (what we call "mana") this most naturally splits into phenomenal realms of elementalism, spiritualism, and mentalism. He is essentially a monist, regarding mentalism as "pygmy Arcane" or a pale imitation of the way gods try to manipulate their own power. With sorcery this becomes trying to go against the grain, or the fusion of two forms of energy that do not want to go together, with the associated destructiveness and backlash risks.
The interesting thing with Rolemaster sorcery is that it is always the immediate destruction of some specific form of matter. Limb disrupt blows up limbs, shatter spells shatter things, and they do nothing else. I imagine it as the caster channeling to the target and manipulating its own essence against itself, in the same sense as the messaging from being hit by Dark Catalyst, so when the target is the mind sorcery effectively becomes mentalism turned inside out. It isn't that the sorcerer is a mind magician, so much as they are making the mind of the target attack itself. And that requires no use of a third sphere of magic.
<<I would add that, in that game framework, one could pick up to 6 base lists (a base list defined how far up the spell list someone could learn it - base means all the way to the tippy top.) Imagine if the sorcerer could have Sorcerer profession, Minor Elemental, Minor Spiritual, Major Elemental and Major Spiritual lists. Of course, training to 3x limits (perhaps) how that growth could be realized. And I'd truly love a chance to have the Arcane spell list thrown in as number 6 (or 4, for that other elemental profession).>>
The six sorcerer base lists were also a cross-sampling of the purely desructive spells from the pure Evil Mentalist, Evil Mage, and Evil Cleric lists. In the obsolete world setting you were obligated to "corruption" (metaphysical radiation poisoning) from those but not the phenomenally equivalent sorcerer versions. It is just that a sorcerer could only have two Level 20 (for example) mind destruction spells when the Evil Mentalist had six. The trade-off for this versatility is higher training costs in spell research outside of the base lists, especially for the higher level / more powerful spells on the [Major] spell circles.
But then, the Sorcerer profession has never been "hybrid" in this full mechanical sense, and the Sorcerer list included spells that came only from those Evil lists. The nature of what qualifies as "sorcery" versus whatever else has drifted OOC over time. In a purely IC sense it might even be fair for someone to argue that Disintegrate would be sorcery as Korthyr knew it, but summoning demons or other expressly malevolent spellcraft might have been "black arts." There could be some historicity in the concept, especially after the Undead War, which is glossed over or even subject to historical revisionism in the Faendryl culture.
The interesting thing with Rolemaster sorcery is that it is always the immediate destruction of some specific form of matter. Limb disrupt blows up limbs, shatter spells shatter things, and they do nothing else. I imagine it as the caster channeling to the target and manipulating its own essence against itself, in the same sense as the messaging from being hit by Dark Catalyst, so when the target is the mind sorcery effectively becomes mentalism turned inside out. It isn't that the sorcerer is a mind magician, so much as they are making the mind of the target attack itself. And that requires no use of a third sphere of magic.
<<I would add that, in that game framework, one could pick up to 6 base lists (a base list defined how far up the spell list someone could learn it - base means all the way to the tippy top.) Imagine if the sorcerer could have Sorcerer profession, Minor Elemental, Minor Spiritual, Major Elemental and Major Spiritual lists. Of course, training to 3x limits (perhaps) how that growth could be realized. And I'd truly love a chance to have the Arcane spell list thrown in as number 6 (or 4, for that other elemental profession).>>
The six sorcerer base lists were also a cross-sampling of the purely desructive spells from the pure Evil Mentalist, Evil Mage, and Evil Cleric lists. In the obsolete world setting you were obligated to "corruption" (metaphysical radiation poisoning) from those but not the phenomenally equivalent sorcerer versions. It is just that a sorcerer could only have two Level 20 (for example) mind destruction spells when the Evil Mentalist had six. The trade-off for this versatility is higher training costs in spell research outside of the base lists, especially for the higher level / more powerful spells on the [Major] spell circles.
But then, the Sorcerer profession has never been "hybrid" in this full mechanical sense, and the Sorcerer list included spells that came only from those Evil lists. The nature of what qualifies as "sorcery" versus whatever else has drifted OOC over time. In a purely IC sense it might even be fair for someone to argue that Disintegrate would be sorcery as Korthyr knew it, but summoning demons or other expressly malevolent spellcraft might have been "black arts." There could be some historicity in the concept, especially after the Undead War, which is glossed over or even subject to historical revisionism in the Faendryl culture.
DAID
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/05/2016 06:53 AM CST
>At some point I will have Xorus write some IC thesis elaborating a diversity of philosophical views on the intrinsic nature of magic.
I kind of want to write Kaldonis's sometime, too, but it's always on the back burner and never really getting cooked. The ideas I have are mostly related to teleportation (movement through space and time), so naturally there would be some links with Lorae'Tyr. One paragraph in Silvean's own commentary on Lorae'Tyr relates to this:
I think my fundamental idea was to link elemental mana with movement through time and spiritual mana as movement through space, and try to see how the physics pans out in Elanthia...
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
I kind of want to write Kaldonis's sometime, too, but it's always on the back burner and never really getting cooked. The ideas I have are mostly related to teleportation (movement through space and time), so naturally there would be some links with Lorae'Tyr. One paragraph in Silvean's own commentary on Lorae'Tyr relates to this:
| While we are accustomed to thinking of the passage of time as a straight line, the example of Lorae'Tyr prompts me to wonder if we should think instead of a spiral. In this way the currents of time are carrying us along in a curved line that only seems straight. Certain elemental magics in Elanthia allow one to skip backward in time by creating a straight-line shortcut between the current point of the curve and a nearby previous point. This passage never plunges backward along the curve but skips outside of it instead. Lorae'Tyr allows for dramatic movement up and down the rings of the spiral. |
I think my fundamental idea was to link elemental mana with movement through time and spiritual mana as movement through space, and try to see how the physics pans out in Elanthia...
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
LALAKERCLAN
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/11/2016 01:37 PM CST
While HSN was pretty "meh" in terms of the improvements lores offer versus the TP cost-investment, and there is a legitimate question in my mind as to the usefulness of lores versus investing the TPs in, say, CMAN or Dodge, I think it is indisputable that the sorcerer profession is in overall better shape than it was before HSN. While it is true Necro lore is the way to go, that was always the case. HSN was a missed opportunity to improve Demonology, but at least nothing was broken/taken away. The same is definitely, DEFINITELY not true for Wizards.
I play both classes. My reaction to HSN as a sorcerer was mostly "ok, not HUGE, but pretty nice stuff there" (particularly 705 bolt and open 703) and my reaction to the ELR as a sorcerer was mostly "maybe I really SHOULD pick up some fire lore. 413 improvements, double-cast 415 on targets where DC is weak could be a nice alternative, and potential crit weighting from 425."
My reaction to HSN/ELR as a wizard was (and is) mostly tears. And RAGE.
I play both classes. My reaction to HSN as a sorcerer was mostly "ok, not HUGE, but pretty nice stuff there" (particularly 705 bolt and open 703) and my reaction to the ELR as a sorcerer was mostly "maybe I really SHOULD pick up some fire lore. 413 improvements, double-cast 415 on targets where DC is weak could be a nice alternative, and potential crit weighting from 425."
My reaction to HSN/ELR as a wizard was (and is) mostly tears. And RAGE.
OBSERVER
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/11/2016 01:50 PM CST
I think there is an opportunity in 740 and the travel change review to have Demonology gain some ground. Hopefully, the GMs capitalize on this chance.
DAID
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/11/2016 05:52 PM CST
>I think there is an opportunity in 740 and the travel change review to have Demonology gain some ground. Hopefully, the GMs capitalize on this chance.
Every time a Rester Planar Shifts, a major demon is summoned in TSC. Maybe it can be like seed 50 or something :D
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Every time a Rester Planar Shifts, a major demon is summoned in TSC. Maybe it can be like seed 50 or something :D
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
GS4-FINROS
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/16/2016 08:08 PM CST
>Indeed, I experimented with Torment outside the Marsh Keep (mid-40s), but as soon as I realized how few bounties it was useful for (unless you stay in the room) I stopped bothering with it.
This caught my attention. Torment now gives full bounty credit (and Sunfist credit) if the creature dies in a different room due to your Torment spell.
This caught my attention. Torment now gives full bounty credit (and Sunfist credit) if the creature dies in a different room due to your Torment spell.
OBSERVER
DAID
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/17/2016 11:39 AM CST
>>Indeed, I experimented with Torment outside the Marsh Keep (mid-40s), but as soon as I realized how few bounties it was useful for (unless you stay in the room) I stopped bothering with it.
>This caught my attention. Torment now gives full bounty credit (and Sunfist credit) if the creature dies in a different room due to your Torment spell.
Wow! Awesome Finros!
Never say it doesn't pay to keep harping about the same thing over and over again.
I'm actually really curious now about the exact details of this. Does it just work for culling bounties? I don't mind a bit of player testing, though free answers from GMs is always okay for me, too.
I will definitely need to assess using this spell again now.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
>This caught my attention. Torment now gives full bounty credit (and Sunfist credit) if the creature dies in a different room due to your Torment spell.
Wow! Awesome Finros!
Never say it doesn't pay to keep harping about the same thing over and over again.
I'm actually really curious now about the exact details of this. Does it just work for culling bounties? I don't mind a bit of player testing, though free answers from GMs is always okay for me, too.
I will definitely need to assess using this spell again now.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
ROLFARD
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/17/2016 01:14 PM CST
Can we look into the fact that any Confluence creature finished off by an animate yields no treasure please?
DAID
Re: HSN Review and Future Development
02/17/2016 01:23 PM CST
Rolfard, this is an admirable start to harping about the same thing over and over again! That's the spirit!
Though, more seriously, I'm wondering if Torment killing them from another room has them drop gems or not. I suspect I will test this on water wyrds first since that sounds safer.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Though, more seriously, I'm wondering if Torment killing them from another room has them drop gems or not. I suspect I will test this on water wyrds first since that sounds safer.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
