Originally posted here: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=6&topic=9&message=2432
Does it make sense for anyone to give ways for hiders to loot their kills and atleast have a chance to remain in hiding? Many attempts of late were made to give hiders, specificially rogues, more reason to move towards a pure stealth build. Tie it into Armor Use, and have it so that you make an attempt to drag a body off in the shadows to loot it, or better yet, have it just decay as it would if you had searched it.
Hell, if you REALLY think it is overpowered, tie it into the Pickpocketing skill. You can steal from the dead while hidden, right? Well, just have Stalking & Hiding and Pickpocketing be a factor in success. This just seems like a given for the improvement to stealth based combat that would reduce tedium and support current mechanics goals.
LORDEVARIN
PHILLYKING
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 09:05 AM CST
Looting from hiding sounds rather nice actually. I second the motion, NIR make it so. <chuckles>
GS4-FINROS
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 05:56 PM CST
Interesting idea. I'm not convinced that coming out of hiding to loot a kill is really "tedious," but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to it. However, picking up the loot from hiding might fall into that "tedious" category. Assume that coins can be gathered instantly and silently, but what about gems, magical trinkets, and treasure chests? Rogues could collect the first two categories with the use of rogue gambits, but would have to come out of hiding to grab the chests. And don't forget that rogue gambits impose RT. Collecting all the treasure from a stealth-looted critter would take longer than the current instantaneous "loot and grab."
I can see potential use when the treasure is coins only, and of course for roleplaying purposes, but I'm unsure about how much mechanical benefit it would confer.
I can see potential use when the treasure is coins only, and of course for roleplaying purposes, but I'm unsure about how much mechanical benefit it would confer.
LORDEVARIN
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 09:06 PM CST
That is why I thought it would be useful to tie in the skill of pickpocketing. However, if you wanted to just have it so you looted the body stealthily, gathering coins and having the valuables on the ground with a 3 second RT, or something, then rogue stealthing the rest I guess...
This is one of those times where you just have to say, how realistic do you have to be? How about Silent strike? A shadowy figure appears briefly near the corpse, rifling through its positions before darting back into the shadows. Make a check against stealth, including pickpocketing, some RT and bam. There you go.
This is one of those times where you just have to say, how realistic do you have to be? How about Silent strike? A shadowy figure appears briefly near the corpse, rifling through its positions before darting back into the shadows. Make a check against stealth, including pickpocketing, some RT and bam. There you go.
LORDEVARIN
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 09:08 PM CST
Give it a small stamina cost too. If a rogue can vanish in plain sight after being pinned down and actively in heavy roundtime from an E-wave, I think he can stealthy manage to loot a corpse for a few points. Sure, the rogue couldn't do it EVERY creature, but he could when he wanted to loot something in front of other monsters and have a good chance to stay hidden.
The idea is to create options.
The idea is to create options.
GS4-FINROS
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 09:42 PM CST
Perhaps I'm not seeing how you picture this ability. With your pickpocketing comparison, do you mean that the person should be lifting coins and/or items off of the corpse, one at a time, and making multiple "lifts" to get them all? How would you account for heavier items, like treasure chests, in that scenario? Alternatively, with your silent strike comparison, perhaps you mean it as a "loot the body and automatically transfer all the looted items into a default container when doing so" type maneuver? Or something else?
CLOS
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 10:03 PM CST
<<Perhaps I'm not seeing how you picture this ability. With your pickpocketing comparison, do you mean that the person should be lifting coins and/or items off of the corpse, one at a time, and making multiple "lifts" to get them all? How would you account for heavier items, like treasure chests, in that scenario? Alternatively, with your silent strike comparison, perhaps you mean it as a "loot the body and automatically transfer all the looted items into a default container when doing so" type maneuver? Or something else?
I think that is there is going to be a stamina cost associated with it then the default container method should be used... If the multiple lifts, I am not sure that it is impossible that with pick pocketing/stalking and hiding doesn't mean that this cannot work.
I view pickpocketing as more of a method of understanding how to snag stuff when people(or things) aren't paying attention, I think with S/H this tactic knowledge of "stealth loot" would carry over.
Sort of how thrown skill helps with the dart system.
I think that is there is going to be a stamina cost associated with it then the default container method should be used... If the multiple lifts, I am not sure that it is impossible that with pick pocketing/stalking and hiding doesn't mean that this cannot work.
I view pickpocketing as more of a method of understanding how to snag stuff when people(or things) aren't paying attention, I think with S/H this tactic knowledge of "stealth loot" would carry over.
Sort of how thrown skill helps with the dart system.
LORDEVARIN
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 10:54 PM CST
The goal is to be able to loot from hiding, so then the question becomes what do you need in terms of balance to make that possible? Stamina costs? RT? Stealth checks, etc, etc. We know the end result, to be able to loot efficiently from hiding without too much hassle. It is up the GM to come up with the requirements for accomplishing the goal.
LORDEVARIN
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 10:58 PM CST
To answer your question a bit more directly, I think a container that would be designated for stashing loot that would normally appear on the ground could work. Or, existing mechanics could just suffice, and the hider would choose when he wished to retrieve them from hiding, either via rogue gambits or otherwise. This way, he doesn't need to worry about someone coming along and searching his kill, or the kill rotting away before he has a chance to deal with it.
We're making a mountain out of a molehill, here. The idea was to loot from hiding. If we pile on too much whatifs and whyfors it becomes so convoluted that it isn't worthwhile.
We're making a mountain out of a molehill, here. The idea was to loot from hiding. If we pile on too much whatifs and whyfors it becomes so convoluted that it isn't worthwhile.
GS4-FINROS
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 11:12 PM CST
Point taken. Though I will note that the "whatifs and whyfors" are useful in clarifying intent and means, in general. It's our (meaning staff) job to handle the end design and implementation, but I'd hate to misinterpret a suggestion to the point of running off to do it, and find out later that something entirely different was intended.
LORDEVARIN
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/08/2011 11:25 PM CST
I appreciate the consideration of the idea, Finros. I understand there are many aspects to game balance, but it is sometimes frustrating to have to put so much red tape on what could conceptually be an "easy fix". As for the specifics of implementation, more rogues and stealthy types would have to chime and discuss what they would like out of the ability to loot while hiding. Mine was an observation from the outside looking in was all.
GREDGEWIZ
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/09/2011 12:31 AM CST
I think the being able to loot a critter while hidden/invisible isn't absolutely needed. Would it be easier to make critter leave their treasure upon decaying instead of taking it with them? This could solve another problem as well. That problem being a critter dying and decaying with a disarmed/stolen weapon.
This way, a good ambusher could kill and wait for the critter to decay normally, then use Rogue Gambits to pick up the small items.
I'm not sure how you would handle silvers, I tested this...
>You drop 500 silvers.
>You drop a turquoise stone.
>hide
>Roundtime: 3 sec.
>You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
>rga stealth get coins
>You come out of hiding.
>You gather the remaining 500 coins.
(Not so stealthy!)
>rga steath get stone
>You carefully take hold of the turquoise stone while remaining in the shadows.
>Roundtime: 2 sec.
(More like it!)
so... good fixes here would be let critters leave treasure after they decay, not just when searched.
and allow Rogue Gambit - Stealth Get apply to silvers in small pulls (similar to when there are multiple boxes open with coins in them, and you try to Get Coin and you only pull some of the coins from a box instead of all of them.)
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
This way, a good ambusher could kill and wait for the critter to decay normally, then use Rogue Gambits to pick up the small items.
I'm not sure how you would handle silvers, I tested this...
>You drop 500 silvers.
>You drop a turquoise stone.
>hide
>Roundtime: 3 sec.
>You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
>rga stealth get coins
>You come out of hiding.
>You gather the remaining 500 coins.
(Not so stealthy!)
>rga steath get stone
>You carefully take hold of the turquoise stone while remaining in the shadows.
>Roundtime: 2 sec.
(More like it!)
so... good fixes here would be let critters leave treasure after they decay, not just when searched.
and allow Rogue Gambit - Stealth Get apply to silvers in small pulls (similar to when there are multiple boxes open with coins in them, and you try to Get Coin and you only pull some of the coins from a box instead of all of them.)
-James-
player of Fremie
Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."
Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
STL0369
Re: LOOT/SEARCH and Hiding
02/09/2011 03:38 PM CST
I'm with Fremie on this one. The problem is that critters decay before it is safe to step from the shadows. If they still drop their treasure, this will fix the problem. As far as picking the loot up, keep it as it is with the gambit skill. It is a stealthy activity, which is why rogues can do it. I know some rangers won't be happy about that, but rogues are plenty perceptive and still can't forage for herbs with the same success.
