<<Since I know you are an archer, the bug you found was the stupidly low ranged DS on the Ithzir. The melee DS you see is how it is supposed to be.

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Ron >>

Sorry it took me a while to respond. Among Ithzir there was one striking differance in DS with seers. Initiates also had a significant differance though much less that seers. The differances between scouts, heralds and adepts were negligible. The differances are not a pat linear number but seem to vary according to the creature.
Among the Ithzir it seems their Sorcerer, Cleric, Empath casters are more vulnerable to arrows that their bard, wizard and rogue like counterparts. Here are some examples:

Ithzir adept
You nock an arrow in your short bow.
You fire an arrow at an Ithzir adept!
AS: +244 vs DS: +475 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +68 = -137
A clean miss.
The arrow disappears into the local environs.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
An Ithzir adept sneers as he says, "Te bunoja dax contenda!"
An Ithzir adept raises a hand and turns slowly, as if trying to sense something.
Your injuries hinder your attempts to remain unseen.
The Ithzir adept furrows his blue brow thoughtfully.
HR>get dagger
>ambush
You reach into the sleeve of your black silk shirt and release the strap holding your dagger in place. The black vultite dagger slides into your waiting hand.
H>
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a serrated black vultite dagger at an Ithzir adept!
AS: +244 vs DS: +490 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +90 = -134

A differance of 15. As an archer or melee ambusher this adept is likely to survive the first shot or first ambush. I would have to knock this Ithzir down first with ewave or subdue or wait for it's wizard's shield to fall. The adepts seem to have the highest DS among the ithzir.


Ithzir seer

You nock an arrow in your short bow.
You fire an arrow at an Ithzir seer!
AS: +244 vs DS: +366 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +86 = -10
A clean miss.
The arrow disappears into the local environs.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
An Ithzir seer raises a hand and turns slowly, as if trying to sense something.
Your injuries hinder your attempts to remain unseen.
The Ithzir seer furrows her blue brow thoughtfully.
HR>
An Ithzir scout snatches up an arrow!
The Ithzir scout runs a blue finger along the arrow with no hint of emotion.
HR>get dagger
>ambush
You reach into the sleeve of your black silk shirt and release the strap holding your dagger in place. The black vultite dagger slides into your waiting hand.
H>
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a serrated black vultite dagger at an Ithzir seer!
AS: +244 vs DS: +456 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +66 = -124
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

A differance of 92. As an archer I would snipe the seer. As a melee ambusher if I missed I would probably e-wave the seer and hide/ambush again or hide and subdue then ambush again depending on if there were other creatures in the room or not. Seers are very vulnerable to ranged attacks.

Ithzir initiate

You nock an arrow in your short bow.
You fire an arrow at an Ithzir initiate!
AS: +244 vs DS: +423 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +48 = -105
A clean miss.
The arrow disappears into the local environs.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
An Ithzir initiate raises his arms and gazes upward!
An invisible force guides an Ithzir initiate.
HR>get dagger
>ambush
You reach into the sleeve of your black silk shirt and release the strap holding your dagger in place. The black vultite dagger slides into your waiting hand.
H>
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a serrated black vultite dagger at an Ithzir initiate!
AS: +244 vs DS: +471 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +44 = -161
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

A differance of 48. As an archer if I did not kill it the first shot I would knock it down and then try again. As a melee ambusher I would handle the same as a seer.


Ithzir herald

You remove a single arrow from a bundle of arrows.
H>
You nock an arrow in your short bow.
You fire an arrow at an Ithzir herald!
AS: +244 vs DS: +366 with AvD: +16 + d100 roll: +16 = -90
A clean miss.
The arrow disappears into the local environs.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
An Ithzir herald peers suspiciously about.
The Ithzir herald absentmindedly hums to himself, his brow furrowed.
HR>get dagger
>ambush
You reach into the sleeve of your black silk shirt and release the strap holding your dagger in place. The black vultite dagger slides into your waiting hand.
H>
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a serrated black vultite dagger at an Ithzir herald!
AS: +244 vs DS: +377 with AvD: +11 + d100 roll: +10 = -112
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>put dagger in my shirt

A differance of 11. Negligible in my opinion.


Ithzir scout

You nock an arrow in your short bow.
You fire an arrow at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +244 vs DS: +323 with AvD: +16 + d100 roll: +85 = +22
A clean miss.
The arrow flies off to the north!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
An Ithzir scout carefully surveys her surroundings.
Your injuries hinder your attempts to remain unseen.
The Ithzir scout's blue brow furrows, her strange green eyes narrowed in suspicion.
HR>get dagger
>ambush
You reach into the sleeve of your black silk shirt and release the strap holding your dagger in place. The black vultite dagger slides into your waiting hand.
H>
You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a serrated black vultite dagger at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +244 vs DS: +328 with AvD: +11 + d100 roll: +11 = -62
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

A differance of 5. Negligible in my opinion.

That is a small specific sample of one type of creature among hundreds. Would be interesting to know how other groups of creatures compared to the ithzir.

Wolfloner

how many near or post cap rogues have considered or already do use 417 to dispel critters?

-James-
player of Fremie

Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."

Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"

I use dispel constantly, and the largest benefit by far is making the target lose a prepped spell. The spell stripping/chance of critical is just gravy.

.jaired
W.W.O.P.D.

Not only will dispel work on undead but its 3 seconds of soft rt vs the hard rt of groin kick, I think its 5 can't I don't really remember.

Although, in good news there are these proposed changes to 417 when the elemental lore review comes into effect:

Training in Elemental Lore, Fire unlocks a 10% chance to dispel an active spell effect in addition to dispelling a prepared spell at 10 EL:F ranks. The chance increases by 3% for every additional 10 ranks.
Additionally, training Elemental Lore, Fire increases the amount of mana that is burned from a target with no active spell effects or prepared spells by 1 point per 15 lore skill. Mana burned in this manner will not cause nerve damage to a target.


-Adam

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"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous

They also tend to use turns standing up instead of casting or attacking from the ground, which is my favorite reason to knock them down...

-Keleborrn.