Thematically, I believe Rogues being elemental/mental squares rather than elemental/spiritual is more fitting. Hypothetically, if Rogues were to trade access to the Minor Spiritual circle to Minor Mental, how many people would be upset?
Personally, I think MnM looks a little stronger for us. The stats (DS/TD) seem to be slightly better. Dragonclaw and Brace would be sweet for unarmed folks. Mind Over Body looks really cool. I think I'd really only miss 130, but many people have the same functionality with Symbol of Return. Thoughts?
Glimmin Goodhand
TARLEQUIN
VANKRASN39
Re: Minor Mental
07/18/2018 09:26 PM CDT
>Thoughts?
I would love to see another square/semi profession switched to MnM and break up the MnE/MnS monotony. Rogues are a good choice
OM1E5GA
Re: Minor Mental
07/18/2018 09:49 PM CDT
I might change my mind as I approach cap, but I really don't see myself getting more then the 4 elemental spells my little gnome already has regardless whether such a change was made or not. That said, access to 1209 and 1214 would be a boon for UAC ambushing rogues, but there would be no benefit to most other builds.
Even post-cap I rarely hear about rogues going higher then 10 spells in any circle, which would be the elemental circle (and there are few enough that even go that high). So I'll keep my assessment limited to the first 10 spells of each circle for the non-UAC rogues:
Spirit:
-5 of the spells are defensive spells that anyone that knows them would likely keep up all the time (101, 103, 104, 105, and 107) giving them +25 spiritTD, +35 bolt DS, +10 DS, resistance to disease and poison
-2 are defensive spells that are situational at best and likely to be ignored (102 and 106)
-1 is a useful utility spell (108)
-1 is only useful for messing with wizards (109)
-1 is an attack spell they'll never have the CS to ward with
Mental:
-2 are defensive spells anyone that knows will likely have up (1204 and 1208) giving them +20 mentalTD and +10 DS (do any critters even use mental spells?)
-2 are attack spells no rogue will ever have the CS to make use of (1201 and 1210)
-1 is an attack spell that's situationally useful (1203)
-1 is fake armor that needs more ranks in lores then a rogue can get without enhansives to be as good as brig, and even then is inferior to brig (1202)
-1 is a utility spell useful on group hunts (1205)
-1 is a less powerful version of 410 (1207)
-1 is only useful for UAC users (1209)
-1 is unimplimented (1206)
As a non-UAC rogue, there's no real reason to train in either unless hunting in spell-burst areas given how easy the useful spiritual spells are to get from others. Unless rogues hunting in areas like that that speak up saying then need the defense from spiritual circle, I say let the UAC rogues have the boons of the 1200s if they care to spend the TPs to get them.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Even post-cap I rarely hear about rogues going higher then 10 spells in any circle, which would be the elemental circle (and there are few enough that even go that high). So I'll keep my assessment limited to the first 10 spells of each circle for the non-UAC rogues:
Spirit:
-5 of the spells are defensive spells that anyone that knows them would likely keep up all the time (101, 103, 104, 105, and 107) giving them +25 spiritTD, +35 bolt DS, +10 DS, resistance to disease and poison
-2 are defensive spells that are situational at best and likely to be ignored (102 and 106)
-1 is a useful utility spell (108)
-1 is only useful for messing with wizards (109)
-1 is an attack spell they'll never have the CS to ward with
Mental:
-2 are defensive spells anyone that knows will likely have up (1204 and 1208) giving them +20 mentalTD and +10 DS (do any critters even use mental spells?)
-2 are attack spells no rogue will ever have the CS to make use of (1201 and 1210)
-1 is an attack spell that's situationally useful (1203)
-1 is fake armor that needs more ranks in lores then a rogue can get without enhansives to be as good as brig, and even then is inferior to brig (1202)
-1 is a utility spell useful on group hunts (1205)
-1 is a less powerful version of 410 (1207)
-1 is only useful for UAC users (1209)
-1 is unimplimented (1206)
As a non-UAC rogue, there's no real reason to train in either unless hunting in spell-burst areas given how easy the useful spiritual spells are to get from others. Unless rogues hunting in areas like that that speak up saying then need the defense from spiritual circle, I say let the UAC rogues have the boons of the 1200s if they care to spend the TPs to get them.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
TARLEQUIN
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 12:27 AM CDT
At 17.5m exp (So 2.33x cap), I have 25 spells (425). I'm not sure how typical that is, but, yeah, most Rogues aren't going to be training many spells anyway. I did use E-wave pre-cap, and it has always been awesome, but the most often case I use it in is vs one target so I can easily ambush its eye (as a halfling, I can't reach the eye on most targets w/o them first being prone). Force Projection (1207) has a significantly higher success rate than E-wave, though it's only one target.
+20 MTD isn't useless - it grants +10 TD to non-mental spells and +15 TD vs hybrid mental spells (Empaths and Bards, I think?).
I think a big part of it is that the 100s are the most prolific circle and all the buffs except 120 are shareable, so giving another profession the 1200s also helps in the diversity of spells available and it's a nice boost to some very elder Rogues.
Glimmin Goodhand
+20 MTD isn't useless - it grants +10 TD to non-mental spells and +15 TD vs hybrid mental spells (Empaths and Bards, I think?).
I think a big part of it is that the 100s are the most prolific circle and all the buffs except 120 are shareable, so giving another profession the 1200s also helps in the diversity of spells available and it's a nice boost to some very elder Rogues.
Glimmin Goodhand
AFALLACE
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 01:03 AM CDT
As a rogue 1x in spells.
Please don't give them any ideas.
The useage I get out of the MnS circle absolutely curb stomps any potential the MnM circle could potentially provide.
Now I realize I am coming from a post-cap perspective and my reasons are mostly selfish, but c'mon.
The previous post by Starchitin laid out some pretty true facts, but they didn't go into how it is entirely possible to eventually get 140, 1x Harness Power, and 1x Blessing Lore to keep 117 active for multiple swings.
117 active for both swings with TWC and Whirling Dervish?
140 all hunt?
Get outta here MnM, you're drunk.
I didn't even get into how savage the back-to-back MnS and MnE dispel combo can be.
Wait, no, I'm drunk.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
Please don't give them any ideas.
The useage I get out of the MnS circle absolutely curb stomps any potential the MnM circle could potentially provide.
Now I realize I am coming from a post-cap perspective and my reasons are mostly selfish, but c'mon.
The previous post by Starchitin laid out some pretty true facts, but they didn't go into how it is entirely possible to eventually get 140, 1x Harness Power, and 1x Blessing Lore to keep 117 active for multiple swings.
117 active for both swings with TWC and Whirling Dervish?
140 all hunt?
Get outta here MnM, you're drunk.
I didn't even get into how savage the back-to-back MnS and MnE dispel combo can be.
Wait, no, I'm drunk.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
RATHBONER
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 01:43 AM CDT
Its not worth giving up anything for the opportunity to train in MnM, though I wouldn't mind seeing a post cap feat that allowed all three minors to be trained.
LEAFIARA
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 06:19 AM CDT
Now there's some outside-the-box thinking! I like that, and flavor-wise rogues would be the most fitting square for elemental/mental.
That's in theory. In practice... I'll have to think for a while about whether I'd like it. Just personally I'd love to have 1213 and 1216, I know that much, but I do have to hesitate about an idea that would take away some of the uniqueness and appeal to monks, the rarely-played profession.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
That's in theory. In practice... I'll have to think for a while about whether I'd like it. Just personally I'd love to have 1213 and 1216, I know that much, but I do have to hesitate about an idea that would take away some of the uniqueness and appeal to monks, the rarely-played profession.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
THORNBROOK
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 07:28 AM CDT
I think it would be a challenge to do a blanket change as there is a wide spectrum of levels and play styles involved. This conversation could likely apply to warriors as much as rogues as well. Perhaps an approach where you could choose an affinity to 2/3 minor lists. A 500k bp affinity reset option in the AG shop could reset your choice (also covered by a fixstat)
TARLEQUIN
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 07:36 AM CDT
>>I didn't even get into how savage the back-to-back MnS and MnE dispel combo can be.
This works for any two dispels.
Glimmin Goodhand
This works for any two dispels.
Glimmin Goodhand
OM1E5GA
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 07:53 AM CDT
<but I do have to hesitate about an idea that would take away some of the uniqueness and appeal to monks, the rarely-played profession.>
I doubt there would be much chance of seeing rogues running around in robes using UAC with both hands free regardless of which spell circles they have access to (or, at least, no more of a chance then you already have). Besides the huge difference in TP cost for spells between rogues and monks (67/38), Mental lores cost more then 3 times as much (40/12) and it takes less then half the points for a rogue to train in armor (5/12).
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I doubt there would be much chance of seeing rogues running around in robes using UAC with both hands free regardless of which spell circles they have access to (or, at least, no more of a chance then you already have). Besides the huge difference in TP cost for spells between rogues and monks (67/38), Mental lores cost more then 3 times as much (40/12) and it takes less then half the points for a rogue to train in armor (5/12).
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
LEAFIARA
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 12:34 PM CDT
>I doubt there would be much chance of seeing rogues running around in robes using UAC with both hands free regardless of which spell circles they have access to (or, at least, no more of a chance then you already have). Besides the huge difference in TP cost for spells between rogues and monks (67/38), Mental lores cost more then 3 times as much (40/12) and it takes less then half the points for a rogue to train in armor (5/12).
Oh, I assume the cost of mental lores would change for rogues with a change like this. And I agree the lower level minor mental spells wouldn't change rogues much if at all.
My concern is more for 1212, 1213, 1216, and even 1235. I know it's ridiculously expensive and post-cap... but rogues have been around forever and so have their players, so there are enough of them who would instantly know some of these spells to possibly get rid of a need for many capped groups to find a monk friend.
To be fair, that might just be a monk problem and not something to really consider when talking about rogues.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
Oh, I assume the cost of mental lores would change for rogues with a change like this. And I agree the lower level minor mental spells wouldn't change rogues much if at all.
My concern is more for 1212, 1213, 1216, and even 1235. I know it's ridiculously expensive and post-cap... but rogues have been around forever and so have their players, so there are enough of them who would instantly know some of these spells to possibly get rid of a need for many capped groups to find a monk friend.
To be fair, that might just be a monk problem and not something to really consider when talking about rogues.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
THROGG
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 10:22 PM CDT
I had e-wave at 90 trains. Currently 401-414, with 101 thrown in for a bit extra TD. Planning on going to 430 if I can, though that will take a fair amount of time.
ALLENM20
Re: Minor Mental
07/19/2018 10:36 PM CDT
Might be interesting to allow all semi professions to choose between minor elemental, minor spirit, or minor mental be once you choose one you're locked into it unless you fixskill.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.
RATHBONER
Re: Minor Mental
07/20/2018 05:26 AM CDT
>Might be interesting to allow all semi professions to choose between minor elemental, minor spirit, or minor mental be once you choose one you're locked into it unless you fixskill.
They'd almost all take MnE, its far more powerful than the others. There are some big gaps between the power spells in MnE and its tempting to pick up 101 or 103 in them, but since it would commit me to a fixskill when I had 25 spells trained, I haven't done it (yet). I think pretty much all rogues and warriors take the view that if you've trained 25 spells, you have 425, and if you've trained 30, its 430, and I'd expect all semis to come to the same conclusion.
They'd almost all take MnE, its far more powerful than the others. There are some big gaps between the power spells in MnE and its tempting to pick up 101 or 103 in them, but since it would commit me to a fixskill when I had 25 spells trained, I haven't done it (yet). I think pretty much all rogues and warriors take the view that if you've trained 25 spells, you have 425, and if you've trained 30, its 430, and I'd expect all semis to come to the same conclusion.
KRAKII
Re: Minor Mental
07/20/2018 08:26 AM CDT
That is in fact how RoleMaster worked: you were able to train in the Open list for Essence [now Elemental], Mental, or Channeling [now Spirit] if you were an Arms realm character (which played into scroll & item activation)...
...but as soon as you actually did train in one of the lists, your Realm was chosen. That was now 'in Realm' for you, and the others were foreign (again, for item & scroll activations).
...but as soon as you actually did train in one of the lists, your Realm was chosen. That was now 'in Realm' for you, and the others were foreign (again, for item & scroll activations).
DOUG
Re: Minor Mental
07/20/2018 08:54 AM CDT
I almost said the same thing, Robert. And it fits in the rogue topic as what you describe is exactly how Arms realm spell list picks worked.
But the post I wanted to respond to said semi. And those lists were not chosen that way. So for warriors, rogues and presumably monks, yes. Paladin spells, for example, no.
Of course there were other game mechanics that made this all feasible that we don't have here, as well. . .
Doug
But the post I wanted to respond to said semi. And those lists were not chosen that way. So for warriors, rogues and presumably monks, yes. Paladin spells, for example, no.
Of course there were other game mechanics that made this all feasible that we don't have here, as well. . .
Doug
LEAFIARA
Re: Minor Mental
07/20/2018 12:06 PM CDT
>Might be interesting to allow all semi professions to choose between minor elemental, minor spirit, or minor mental be once you choose one you're locked into it unless you fixskill.
That would A) be a landslide for minor elemental and B) annoy me that I couldn't do the same for my empath and cleric. :P
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
That would A) be a landslide for minor elemental and B) annoy me that I couldn't do the same for my empath and cleric. :P
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
KRAKII
Re: Minor Mental
07/20/2018 12:28 PM CDT
No, Semis should be in the Minor list of the Realm that they are.
I just happen to disagree that Bards are both a Semi (so, harder at either Arms or Magic than a pure one of either) and a Hybrid (so, harder at Mental & Elemental than a pure one of either).
That was such a dumb decision....
I just happen to disagree that Bards are both a Semi (so, harder at either Arms or Magic than a pure one of either) and a Hybrid (so, harder at Mental & Elemental than a pure one of either).
That was such a dumb decision....
MOURNE
Re: Minor Mental
07/20/2018 03:59 PM CDT
I won't wade into what should or shouldn't happen, but I'd be interested in training more spells with my UAC rogue if I could trade MnS for MnM.
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
GREMINTY
Re: Minor Mental
07/25/2018 12:10 PM CDT
I think it'd be better for diversity, and definitely a better fit thematically. Think the difference pre-cap is pretty marginal though, and post-cap it's likely a decent bit worse. Not worth the potential disruption/angst and balancing required.
Other thoughts:
- Mind over Body (1213) would be pretty nice (20% stamina reduction)
- Provoke (1235) would be great in some cases way post-cap (increases gen rate)
- Shroud of Deception (1212) is very roguish if it ever gets implemented (changes physical appearance/race/profession/etc)
- Can still do dual-sphere dispel explosions w/ Mental Dispel (1218), though probably a lot fewer potential targets for it
- Some of the higher defensive spells would be pretty strong +30DS from Focus Barrier (1216), Blink (1215) for additional evasion chances, Premonition (1220) a bit better than 120
- If 1230 and 1240 get filled in with useful spells, think the switch could possibly be palatable to those way post-cap
Realistically, not going to happen. Character manager changes have a really high barrier to implementation. Maybe when Savants come out...
Other thoughts:
- Mind over Body (1213) would be pretty nice (20% stamina reduction)
- Provoke (1235) would be great in some cases way post-cap (increases gen rate)
- Shroud of Deception (1212) is very roguish if it ever gets implemented (changes physical appearance/race/profession/etc)
- Can still do dual-sphere dispel explosions w/ Mental Dispel (1218), though probably a lot fewer potential targets for it
- Some of the higher defensive spells would be pretty strong +30DS from Focus Barrier (1216), Blink (1215) for additional evasion chances, Premonition (1220) a bit better than 120
- If 1230 and 1240 get filled in with useful spells, think the switch could possibly be palatable to those way post-cap
Realistically, not going to happen. Character manager changes have a really high barrier to implementation. Maybe when Savants come out...
HEBREWTOYOU
Re: Minor Mental
09/11/2018 01:52 PM CDT
For the record, I would definitely vote for rogues swapping MnM for MnS - and I say this as a rogue with 20 MnS spells. It is definitely a better thematic fit and I think it would be an improvement for more classes to have access to this sphere. But I'd also vote for Empaths swapping MnM for MjS as well. ;)
LEAFIARA
Re: Minor Mental
09/11/2018 05:41 PM CDT
>Realistically, not going to happen. Character manager changes have a really high barrier to implementation.
I've read this pretty often, but I've never been clear on exactly why. After all the times I've tried looking through older posts for an answer, the closest I found was a claim that it would require hours of downtime because it would be a database update to every character. (If I remember right, it wouldn't just be the characters of whichever profession people were proposing changes for.)
If that's all it is, I'd totally support GMs deciding on some changes for several professions (including skill costs and skill caps) and then doing them all in one fell swoop so multiple people benefit and the downtime isn't seen as a bad thing.
(I'm speaking in general. For this specific suggestion, I'm honestly undecided on whether I'd rather have minor mental or minor spiritual with my rogue.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
I've read this pretty often, but I've never been clear on exactly why. After all the times I've tried looking through older posts for an answer, the closest I found was a claim that it would require hours of downtime because it would be a database update to every character. (If I remember right, it wouldn't just be the characters of whichever profession people were proposing changes for.)
If that's all it is, I'd totally support GMs deciding on some changes for several professions (including skill costs and skill caps) and then doing them all in one fell swoop so multiple people benefit and the downtime isn't seen as a bad thing.
(I'm speaking in general. For this specific suggestion, I'm honestly undecided on whether I'd rather have minor mental or minor spiritual with my rogue.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
KRAKII
Re: Minor Mental
09/12/2018 11:30 AM CDT
Given that the "Character Manager" per se is largely bound for the glue factory (I think nearly everyone probably just uses "goals" from in-game, right?) I don't see why this would be the case. We already HAVE the kinder gentler version.
Just like the "Merchant Manager" is gone, and we are now in the "order" system.
Just like the "Merchant Manager" is gone, and we are now in the "order" system.
