Any chance there are some combat maneuvers in the works for two weapon combat similar to the armor and shield skills that have been released?

Two weapon combat is becoming an incredibly poor choice for a rogue, but that's the way I've always seen my character. It could use a little love.

*small rant, then continuuing on topic*
I've been excited by all the new skills that have been made available this past year, but honestly I'm underwhelmed at the results for my character (ambusher with two medium weapons in heavy armor). There has been a very large push to make rogues wear lighter armors (and I support that), but every skill released for rogues practically excludes those in heavy armor. I can always completely change my hunting style to make use of the new opportunities, but I like to play the way I've made my character. It's frustrating to see all the benefits going to so many, while leaving a particular group of us in the cold. When everyone gets a raise except you, you ARE being penalized.
****

It seems more and more players are being expected to alter characters, many of which they've had and played for 10-15 years, to match some grand vision of what their class should be if they want to take advantage of new skills, spells, and perks. It wouldn't be so bad if the over-all idea for what each profession should be didn't change every time they get a new guru.

Maybe each profession should do what the residents of RR did years ago: take up a collection to invest in a black helicopter that can be used to keep an eye one their gurus and make sure they don't leave anyone in the dust or fudge them up.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

As a TWC rogue, I don't really have a use for Whirling Dervish. My second hand is mostly there for when my main hand misses an ambush, not to be used for mstriking.

Not only that, but whirling dervish is yet another cman skill I already don't have any points remaining for. I already have tough choices to make, as it is, and Whirling Dervish would not even be close to the top of my list of cmans to learn, if I could.

>If you are ambushing, can you still aim and get the stance pushdown on the second strike?

Yes. The off-hand ambush aims at the same location specified with full ambush modifiers in place. You can kill two targets with one ambush easy enough. Or two+ targets with one focused mstrike.

Pretty nice stuff, actually. 30 ranks of MoC is nice to work in anyway.

.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.

>>Have you tried Whirling Dervish yet?

The 30 ranks in Multi Opponent Combat might seem like a heavy requirement for a rogue, but if you are a combat oriented rogue anyway this might be right up your alley.<<

My empath has 30 ranks in MOC! She wants to learn Whirling Dervish! ::grumble::


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>Two ARMOR skills (obviously) take armor into account. The new Cmans and SHIELD maneuvers don't.
Me

I was mistaken. Slippery mind does. I originally read it as taking shield size into account.

-farmer

<<<Have you tried Whirling Dervish yet?>>>

This seems like a really cool CMAN. My rogue's just a wee lass but I plan to train for this.

~ Heathyr

I don't know. I may pick it up in a few months, after I have some more post cap xp and a fixskills.

Currently I avoid fighting multiple critters at once. I'm worried it may get me killed often enough to make it not so worthwhile. Even at max ranks, 1 in 5 times will fail, and put me at risk. I don't know why it's not at least 100% chance...

>OK, does Dervish work from hiding/ambush? If not I see little value for my TWC ambusher. Unless the second attack (from the open!) also gets the ambush DS pushdown.
THROGG

Re: TWC maneuvers on 04/08/2013 05:57 PM EDT

455

Reply

>If you are ambushing, can you still aim and get the stance pushdown on the second strike?

Yes. The off-hand ambush aims at the same location specified with full ambush modifiers in place. You can kill two targets with one ambush easy enough. Or two+ targets with one focused mstrike.

Pretty nice stuff, actually. 30 ranks of MoC is nice to work in anyway.

.jaired

>LIKE A BOSS

Please rephrase that command.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Rogues/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Rogues/view/455


-farmer

>>Whirling Dervish's chance to activate is 5% + 25% per rank. So with three ranks, it should trigger 80% of the time.

Which means that 20% of the time, the other critter will get to attack me :)

It's hard to stance dance two critters! As I said before...maybe once I get enough XP for more dodge/MoC ranks, it will be more viable for me. Until then I think it's a safer bet to stick to lone critters, as I usually do.

It still seems to me like it was designed mostly for warriors - especially with the MoC requirement.

And honestly, I always felt you should be able to aim BOTH weapons where you want. The fact that it takes a cman skill, MoC ranks, only has an 80% chance, and then has the regular ambushing failure chance....it just doesn't even come CLOSE to comparing to all the awesome new shield mans.

If they made an off-hand weapon that worked as a shield and not a weapon, I'd switch to shield use in a second!!! :D

>>Which means the other 20% of the time you get to VANISH.

So that means I have to train yet ANOTHER cman for it to work for me? Nice!

Vanish is cool; but I have a dilemna. Should I get 5th ranks of shadowmastery first, or get rank 3 vanish now and get rank 5 in a bit?

Personally I am favoring getting rank 5 smastery since apparently, according to the description, that is active all the time. Sounds like cool beans.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

<Vanish is cool; but I have a dilemna. Should I get 5th ranks of shadowmastery first, or get rank 3 vanish now and get rank 5 in a bit?>

Personally I'd go for the 5th rank in shadow mastery first, esp if you sneak around a lot.... unless you're currently hunting something with a maneuver that puts you in 7+ seconds of RT regularly or have an RT of 7 seconds or more when you swing your weapon.

Yes, I know 2 ranks of vanish only works with 5 seconds or RT or less, but if I get 6 seconds of RT, 9 times out of 10, it will have dropped down to 5 seconds by the time I type "cman van" or I've typed so fast that I made a typo and have to retype it anyway.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

>>If you don't have vanish, I don't know why you're a rogue!

Without 3x hiding I find it incredibly unreliable. Especially in the rift.

As an ambusher, I'm often aiming at heads, necks, or eyes. Up in the Rift, the critters don't all have these parts where I hunt. My second swing from dervish is often just not attempted because of this. Unless this is a feature, would it be too hard to change dervish second strikes to just be untargetted ambushes if the critter doesn't have the body part I was originally attacking?

Hey all, I'm coming back to the forums after a long time gone. And I know this is a bit off topic, but I wanted to sink my teeth in the combat maneuvers for rogues because I had a great idea the other day.

What if we could have a great CC (crowd control) move that potentially hamstrings opponents and allows for the rogue to return to the shadows.

We could call it shadowstep.

Skill Name: Shadow Step
Mnemonic: shadowstep
Hostile: Yes
Stamina Cost: Base 55 (-8 Rank 1, -6 Rank 2, -4 Rank 3)
Other Requirements: Training in Ambush and Stalking and Hiding is recommended.
Available to: Rogues.
Prerequisites:
Shadow Mastery (at rank 4), Silent Strike (at rank 3)
CMP Cost:
Rank 1: (Squares) 2
Rank 2: (Squares) 4
Rank 3: (Squares) 6
Rank 4: (Squares) 8
Rank 5: (Squares) 10
Description: Attempt to hamstring opponent(s) from hiding without revealing one's location. Each rank increase allows for the attempt of hamstring (with a chance to retreat back into the shadows) on 1 extra opponent with a max of 5. Roundtime increases will vary depending on the type of weapon used and the amount of opponents that the individual has attempted to attack.

So... something like that? I think having a little more crowd control for rogues who are GoS or hunt in Swarm heavy areas is needed. I do both... Let me know what you all think. :D

-Knemo

It's not in place using silent strike. It would have a similar affect, but it's objective would be to take down MULTIPLE enemies, not just a single one. I'm looking for a CROWD CONTROL. If I were to jump out of the shadows a million times I'd be wasting massive amounts of stamina. My objective with this maneuver would be to use a one time heavy amount of stamina to essentially leg up to 5 critters, while being able to maintain a chance of protection of the shadows.

>Skill Name: Shadow Step

I like the idea.

Adjust the CMan point cost higher, and raise the stamina cost across the board and I think it'd balance better.


>I'm looking for a CROWD CONTROL.

While I do like the idea, I also have no problem with the amount of crowd control rogues have currently (and they do have options).



-farmer
>He's right on all counts. ~Vanah
>Farmer is 100% correct. -REIDYN
>Farmer is correct -Wyrom
>Ahh, no, you are correct - QUARTZ

>Which of the crowd control options that rogues already have would be as good as this (other than 410)?

Bleh. That ain't very fair, ya know, pretty much saying, "What is the best way a rogue can achieve effective crowd control without actually training in the easiest and most readily available option that they have at their disposal?"

Without sounding like I don't understand the question, I'll bite. This would be an awesome CMan, and I admit, I would train in it. The main problem I see is the danger of the wording, ie. "Hamstring", as it would imply that one'd have to be pretty good at hamstring to make it work. There also tends to be an annoying tendency to require Multi-Opponent combat for attacks that strike multiple foes.

I know, I know. Shoulda been a pure or a bard.

As far as the other options go, there are a few. They might not be 'as good' on paper, but hey, they're options and some pretty decent ones at that.

Divert: It may seem counter intuitive, but being able to stand in the shadows and make the crowd smaller and smaller until only one or two targets remain 'is' crowd control.

Silent Strike: This one is a mixed bag, since it does require a lot of TP and CMP investment to really pull off... but since the last 'tweak' it is finally pretty reliable. They also made it work with subdue, which is one of the best disablers in the game (when the target can actually be hit by it, which is next to never, but I digress)... which leads us to:

Vanish: Basically every reason not to train in Silent Strike. You can instantly vanish back into hiding immediately following an attack or ambush. Yeah yeah, I know, it doesn't hit 'multiple targets', but remember. We're rogues. Not earth trembling magiwhazzits. Vanish lets you murder crowds one shot at a time while only leaving hiding for that fraction of a second it takes for the command to go through, and as long as stamina holds out.

You want to hit more than one thing at a time in a single attack? Alright, I'm listening. This one doesn't come easy, though. Bear with me.

Multi Opponent Combat: Haha... okay, moving on.

If you're an archer, I'm sorry. If you're sword and board? THW? I can only give you a nugget... but if you really want to be a murder machine in crowds, I have to give a tip of my hat to TWC. The reason(s) are as follows:

Whirling Dervish: What more can I say? With TWC you can kill two targets instantly with one ambush. Then Vanish! You can also let focused mstrikes carry on to multiple targets. Since picking up dervish I hardly ever do unfocused mstrikes anymore, especially with TWC. Because an open mstrike will just tap X amount of targets. With a focused version, the thought process is more like, "That guy is definitely going to die, that guy will probably die, and if that guy is still standing at the end of this? Vanish."

The bigger problem in the crowd control conversation I see is that we're a class that specializes in single target combat, and we are damn good at it. I just don't see them throwing in a CMan ban-aid that suddenly makes rogues crowd killers, especially those that choose NOT to take advantage of the systems already in place for whatever reason. I don't want to start up another training debate, but going into heavy armor, focusing on sword and board hide/ambush, ranged, or having the audacity of wanting to pick for that matter... are all choices. They're very fine and very viable choices, but they aren't choices that lend themselves to good crowd control. By making a few 'other' choices, on the other hand, it is very possible for a rogue to be an absolute force in crowds.

It is when I look at things from that perspective that I don't see many 'direct' crowd control CMans in our future. Not that I wouldn't like seeing them, mind you.

Just being the Devil's Advocate.

.jaired
>I'M ON A BOAT
Please rephrase that command.

>Exactly, but this would be much better for rogues all around because it isn't as hindered by armor as E-wave would be.
-Knemo

Like it or not, and that in itself is a separate discussion, rogues are designed with lighter armor in mind. The heavier armor you wear the less effective you're going to be at roguely things. Armor hindrance with 410 isn't really a very strong argument to me for it not being useful.


>What would you suggest we raise the stamina cost to? I had to take into consideration that not every race has high stamina, so my initial idea was that it should match that of silentstrike (because that's one of the most stamina heavy maneuvers that we rogues have). Second, I made it difficult to obtain (i.e. you must have met multiple prerequisites in order to use).

Each race having different stamina stats and getting more or less use out of a particular CMan (or other skill) is something I'm OK with. I simply don't think it's that difficult to obtain compared to the advantage it would give.


There are other random things I disagree with but Jaired covered it mostly, so I'll skip down to your response to him.


>Since when are "[we]" a class that specializes in single target combat.

Since the creation of the fantasy 'rogue' ideal and the reinforcement by just about every single Roleplaying scenario (live action or game). And more importantly since the game was created. Yes, there is the occasional outlier ability parceled out among those things, but the ultimate notion of a rogue is centered around stealthy, single target combat.

This isn't a new idea.

>You just said yourself that you use Whirling Dervish to take out multiple foes.

Whirling Dervish isn't activated with every attack. There's is a distinct difference between being able to take out 5 targets (cheaply), anytime you want and the (%) chance to take out two at one time.

>so that we don't have to stick with the mindset of, "we're a class that specializes in single target combat."

Rogue skill costs and professional bonuses say otherwise.

Are you willing to give allow every other profession to be just as good when it comes to hiding, sneaking and ambush?

My feeling is you would say no.


-farmer
>He's right on all counts. ~Vanah
>Farmer is 100% correct. -REIDYN
>Farmer is correct -Wyrom
>Ahh, no, you are correct - QUARTZ