>>However, I'm not convinced that the only fun way to get characters involved with the game and with other characters is via combat.

Oh, I do agree with other non-combat ways to do things. A great idea, and I don't want to detract from that discussion.

>>but I'd put my money on the newcomer not likely meeting up with many other low-level characters (if any at all)

Well, except for that part. I really want to see a concerted surge effort of new subscriptions over a longer period. If it can happen, I'd put my money the other way. :)

Doug

>This would not work as well as you'd hope. This would depend on the sorcerer getting the ward off at least 2 to 3 times before the melee killing it.

>These are all facts, and we did do all these things, and frankly, several others

Thats true, the really low level stuff doesnt really have enough health to group hunt with, especially for the bigger groups.

>>Well, except for that part. I really want to see a concerted surge effort of new subscriptions over a longer period. If it can happen, I'd put my money the other way. :)
>>Doug

Yeah, I definitely agree there, but I think our planning should be for current conditions with contingencies for our hoped-for outcome.

>>I understand and appreciate that GS is a game with a focus on RP. But the combat/exp gain is a major part of the game. So a focus should be maintained in keeping that portion of the game just as fun as the rest is important, imo. The experience gaining/leveling system is heavily reinforced as a needed thing by all but a very tiny bit of game interaction. Almost all RP based things that are sanctioned by the game story tellers (NPC RP interactions, events and storylines, etc) include forms of combat, often very high level forms of combat. So to be able to get "involved" in all aspects, one must level. That or just repeatedly die. :(

My point is that even if gaining experience is a big part of the game, combat shouldn't be the only way to get it, especially for newcomers. It was just as frustrating for me as a rogue coming in and getting one hit in for every three or four shots I took. I start all my new characters in Ta'Vaalor now and don't have that problem. I don't have that problem because you can get to level 5 there running messages and taking water to the guards. By that point, you can move to thyrils or the graveyard (in either Ta'Vaalor or Icemule) and really start making some progress.

As for storylines, yes most are heavily combat-based, but just because they are now doesn't mean they have to always be. I absolutely loved everything about EG this year, especially the storyline. It involved no combat, but was a fantastic story overall. We've had some storylines in Platinum that only became about combat because that's where players took it.

New players don't have the same expectations as established players. Easing them into the game through methods other than combat will be a win-win in the long run. Fighting a thyril at level 5 is much more enjoyable than fighting one at level 2; and learning to roleplay increases not only their enjoyment, but the enjoyment of the players with whom they interact.

I will fully and completely argue with anyone that the storyline is mostly high level hunting/invasion. A number of young player and especially newly created characters have successfully been involved in.

This i find is a bigger issue i find with a few in this game especially toward new or long away returners. Many times its about what you cant do or shouldnt do instead of being more positive. Many are so worried about making the initial mechanics newbie friendly i personally think we could keep more players by being more community friendly. Flood the person with help if its a new face. Be friendly and helpful and make a world people want to rp in.

Pups player.

Even then the GMs do plenty to allow the younger ones get involved. This isnt the invasions of old.

<This is a roleplaying game, but hunting is the core way to gain experience. There are other ways to gain experience, but they either have sharply diminishing marginal returns or are a huge <pain. In a lot of ways, you sacrifice combat effectiveness if you make choices for RP purposes (like being a pure caster out of the gate). Being a pure caster should be the best way to <advance a spellcasting class, but it doesn't necessarily follow that pures should be great or even passable at hunting at low levels.

<You should be able to gain experience from studying your craft (i.e. joining the guild and practicing your guild skills). In studying your craft, you can make trinkets that boost your combat <effectiveness and help you learn more about your profession.

<New players don't come into this game expecting to have their spellcasters swing for the first 20 levels. They don't know what to expect except that they'll probably need to learn spells. <Setting the expectation early on that training paths differ lets them know from the start that being a spellcaster will be an entirely different experience from being a square.

While there is merit to what you say, crafting skills in this game are poorly designed. For the most part it seems players find them tedious, in particular alchemy. Ideally, these tasks should be fun, they should provide experience, and I would personally like to see it follow the WoW model a bit more: where players are encouraged by design to explore their skills, both combat and otherwise and are rewarded with experience/silver/items for doing so.

Another problem is that all non-combat skills are useless at the low end. You can't typically pick locks effectively, hide, craft, or anything else when you just start out. I'm sure we can justify this by asking why a level 1 should be good at anything (do we start out as babies??), but where does it get us? I would personally love to see the bounty system encompass crafting skills, locksmithing, etc. I would love to see new players able to explore their skills for rewards. But none of this exists. The game has always been set up this way. So I'm totally with you if you want to change that.

~Taverkin

>>Ideally, these tasks should be fun, they should provide experience, and I would personally like to see it follow the WoW model a bit more: where players are encouraged by design to explore their skills, both combat and otherwise and are rewarded with experience/silver/items for doing so.

I suggested almost exactly this in the "New Player Needs" thread. I'd like to see the guilds for pures changed to a different model than that of squares. Let pures join at level 3 and make the items that will boost their combat effectiveness (drink a 401 potion so you can conserve mana and get back out to the field faster; make iron wands to extend your mana, etc.). It's already there. It's already built. I just don't know how much of the underlying system would have to change to make it work at level 3. They'd also need to up the experience, but you can already sell your alchemy items to the alchemist to make silvers.

As far as fun goes, that's entirely subjective, and we've had this discussion before. I find challenge fun. I prefer roundtime to cooldowns. Some people like the gather items tasks in Alchemy. I hate them. In designing a system like this, you're not going to please everyone with every task, but each task should have some subset of players that enjoys doing it. Does that mean there are no improvements that could be made? No, but I hardly think SIMU should be taking advice on how to improve them from someone who has admittedly never used any of these systems.

>>Another problem is that all non-combat skills are useless at the low end. You can't typically pick locks effectively, hide, craft, or anything else when you just start out. I'm sure we can justify this by asking why a level 1 should be good at anything (do we start out as babies??), but where does it get us? I would personally love to see the bounty system encompass crafting skills, locksmithing, etc. I would love to see new players able to explore their skills for rewards. But none of this exists. The game has always been set up this way. So I'm totally with you if you want to change that.
>>~Taverkin

Have you ever played anything other than a wizard? My rogue was opening her own boxes from the start. The prevailing wisdom is to wait until level 10 to start locksmithing for others, but you can most certainly open your own boxes from the start. Empaths can heal from the start. Only blood at first; but as soon as they get a new healing spell, they can use it right off the bat to start healing others. Wizards can start doing enchantments as soon as they get the spell as long as they've trained properly in the ancillary skills. Same thing with clerics and raising.

You can start fletching at level 1. You gain the same experience at level 1 that you do at level 100. You can also start using those arrows immediately. Just because most people don't doesn't make it impossible or even mean it's not worth it (especially if you're level 1). The end result is that you can get a 5x bow, master fletch your own faewood arrows, and end up with a 10x weapon at a cost an order of magnitude lower than someone trying to obtain a 10x weapon of any other sort.

I don't have any characters who forge, so I can't speak to that. However, I don't generally find cobbling to be tedious. It is a little isolating, which is an area where I would welcome improvement.

As far as S&H goes, it's most definitely a combat-related skill and just like every other combat-related skill grows in power the more you train in it. As it is, Ambush isn't very effective at lower levels, either. So if hiding was made better, Ambush would also need to be made better for you to actually see any effect from it.

Before you deem all RP-related systems as useless and boring, you might want to try them out.

>>I haven't tried alchemy. The reason being that I've been playing this game for a very long time and I can infer from what other players tell me what the system is all about.

I'm sorry, but you really can't. If you could, you wouldn't make suggestions for things that are already part of the system.

Here are some tasks you can receive from the guild for alchemy. Let's see if they ring a bell:

>Go talk to the skilled masters for 5 reps.

The skilled master asks you to make a formula using [CHANT | INFUSE | BOIL | SIMMER | CHANNEL]. When you're finished, she takes the item and hands you some silvers. Depending on the recipe, this can be quite a handsome sum.

>Go talk to the inventory clerk. He'll give you a list of things the guild needs. Bring back five of those items.

You go to the clerk and ask him about a list. He gives you a list with about a dozen things on it. You can choose any five of those items (in the quantity requested) to bring back. You don't even have to bring back all five. You can bring back three if that's all you're willing or able to gather. If it takes you more than 15 minutes to gather the items, you can give them to him and immediately ask for another list. If it takes less than 15 minutes, you have to wait out your time before requesting another list.

>Sweep

Roundtime activity, similar to the square guilds

>Clean assemblies

Cooldown activity (like raking leaves, cleaning floors/windows, or watering the flowers)

>Polish lenses

Same as above

>Distill water

This induces a lot of roundtime. The upside is that later on there are formulas requiring distilled water, so you can save your results for later tasks.

>Extract

Same deal as distilling. Use an item you'll need an extraction of in a later formula.

>Grind up items

This is either for the guild or on your own. When doing it on your own, use items you'll later need to grind anyway. (Gems are perfect for this task as well as the various herbs that are required to be ground first.)

>Go out on your own and create items practicing your [CHANT | INFUSE | BOIL | SIMMER | CHANNEL] ability.

You can choose which items to make as long as they are appropriately difficult for your rank. Some formulas you can't make until you reach a certain rank. These items can be sold to the alchemist to recoup some of your cost (or at a tidy profit depending on the formula). You can also use them yourself. (The only item I ended up using myself was the slender mithril wand, which casts 910. My empath benefitted from all of my other alchemy activities.)

My biggest beef with alchemy is that there are very few formulas that are worthwhile to make at higher levels. I don't need wands that cast 901 or 903 and they're too expensive to make and sell at any kind of profit. If I want to help newbies, it's easier and cheaper to save up all my wand finds and duplicate them. These days, my wizard pretty much sticks to making ayveneh and eoveneh potions.

One of the great things about the pure guilds, though, is that all of the workshops are nodes. I'd love to have that in the rogue's/warrior's guild.

>>The comment on low level characters being unable to effectively use their skills was more about the skill thresholds. I am of the opinion that skills we train x per level should be competent from the start. Hiding should not be difficult at level 1 if the expectation is 2 ranks per level. No reason to require a ton of ranks, just divide by level where skills like that are concerned.

Low level characters are able to effectively use their skills. Are they as good as they'll be at later levels? No, and I don't agree that they should be.

The lower levels teach you what to expect at higher levels. Higher levels are easier not because the game becomes easier. They're easier because you know what to expect and how to plan for contingencies. You've learned the right tactics and that you need to adjust every time you enter a new hunting ground. The first time a deranged sentry disarmed me, I was totally shocked. The thing then picked up my weapon and started beating me with it. It was a 4x falchion with acid flares, and I wanted it back. I had to run to my locker, get a backup weapon, and then go back to try to find that dirty sentry. I eventually did and eventually got my falchion back. Thirty levels later, the same thing happened with a shan warrior. I had a nicer weapon then; but because of that prior experience, I was also already carrying a backup. Imagine how I would have felt if at level 43 I was first learning about this mechanic and it caused me to lose a very nice, expensive weapon.

There's just no way that other players can prepare new players for every contingency that might befall them during the game. Sometimes the only way to learn is through experiencing it yourself. If you provide that experience at a time when there's less to lose, it becomes a story you look back on and laugh at rather than an experience you ragequit over.

<Low level characters are able to effectively use their skills. Are they as good as they'll be at later levels? No, and I don't agree that they should be.

Level already determines efficacy to a large degree. If, for instance, a level 1 rogue is able to hide as effectively against a giant rat as a level 100 rogue with the same number of ranks per level is able to hide against a cerebralite, the higher level rogue is still better but the combat system allows the level 1 rogue to be a rogue. That's what I'm talking about: skills based on ranks per level vs. opponent level rather than preset rank thresholds. To me, thresholds are more appropriate for ability unlocks. The base ability should be available from the start for those who train appropriately in the skill. Why should it take X number of ranks before a rogue can be a rogue? And why are all of their ability unlocks tied to CMANs and guild training? Why couldn't we also have unlocks to differentiate between rogues? Abilities associated with rank thresholds in a specific skill.

Anyway, again sort of off topic here. I have a lot of problems with the way the game works. There's nothing that says it has to work my way, but I can see how it might be handled differently.

~Taverkin

We've come a long way from the "RTFM" days.

I appreciate what the OP is saying and that we need to retain players. Somestimes people may walk for many other reasons that "OMG too hard!". It may be the format. It may be the genre. At one point it was the connection fee.

A real gamer, the kind of people we are, and who we want, would push through.

I've been playing COD:AW and jumping into multiplayer, and even with preorder gear, is tough. There is a leveling system. Thats a part of what makes a game a "game".

GSIV is much easier than GSIII ever was.

Chad, player of a few

<We've come a long way from the "RTFM" days.

<I appreciate what the OP is saying and that we need to retain players. Somestimes people may walk for many other reasons that "OMG too hard!". It may be the format. It may be the genre. At <one point it was the connection fee.

<A real gamer, the kind of people we are, and who we want, would push through.

<I've been playing COD:AW and jumping into multiplayer, and even with preorder gear, is tough. There is a leveling system. Thats a part of what makes a game a "game".

<GSIV is much easier than GSIII ever was.

<Chad, player of a few


I think you're confusing "frustrating" with "challenging". There is very little challenge in GSIV combat, as evidenced by the fact that an automated script can successfully navigate our combat system most of the time. The OP's complaint had little to do with the difficulty of combat. There is nothing inherently challenging to casting harm over and over again - it's a one-button maneuver repeated until you run out of mana! His complaint was to do with the frustration of being ineffective due to lack of sufficient mana to achieve what he considers a reasonable objective. And unlike established players from the 90s, his expectations are shaped by CURRENT game design. As a GOS empath, he expected to have some degree of success hunting low level warcamps as a pure casting empath. He expected to be able to complete some of the bounties he was assigned by the adventurer's guild. And why shouldn't he? They're available at level 3! Worse, when he switched over to a claidhmore under the advice of established players, he WAS able to achieve these objectives where as a pure caster he was not. Understandably, he found that frustrating - not too difficult, just frustrating.

~Taverkin

Taverkin has it correct. I actually find the combat in Gemstone fairly simple and uninvovled. There is a high degree of calculations behind what is going on, but in the end I am just doing mostly the same thing until something is dead. Hopefully combat gets more reactionary later in the game, but the only reaction i've had to deal with is when something does some maneuver that I apparently have no way of block, stuns me, and I spam 'stance defense' and south to get the heck outta there! That being said, combat isn't what brought me to Gemstone ... and definitely not what is going to keep me. Unfortunately it seems that combat is required, as with most games, in order to level which I think everyone that plays a game like this wants to level and gain spells and experience content.

<Taverkin has it correct. I actually find the combat in Gemstone fairly simple and uninvovled. There is a high degree of calculations behind what is going on, but in the end I am just doing <mostly the same thing until something is dead. Hopefully combat gets more reactionary later in the game, but the only reaction i've had to deal with is when something does some maneuver that <I apparently have no way of block, stuns me, and I spam 'stance defense' and south to get the heck outta there! That being said, combat isn't what brought me to Gemstone ... and definitely <not what is going to keep me. Unfortunately it seems that combat is required, as with most games, in order to level which I think everyone that plays a game like this wants to level and gain <spells and experience content.

Since you bring it up, I'll give you my perspective on hunting in the high end. Keep in mind that I only play a wizard and I have a very specific hunting style (bolts only!). I typically use the following spells almost exclusively: minor shock, Tonis bolt, major shock, cone of lightning, call wind, ewave (and every once in awhile tremors, for bandits) and some non-offensive support spells like mana leech, haste, rapid fire, and wizard's shield. As you say, it's fairly simple even at the cap. However, I enjoy the fast pace and deadly attacks. I like that I have the offensive power to take out my enemies quickly, but they also have many attacks that can bypass my defenses and kill me instantly and there are typically a lot of them to face at once. I find that exciting and the challenge is often to prevent them getting the chance of finding that opening.

In contrast (or perhaps in agreement with? It seems to depend on the scenario!) to RATHBONER, I find the classes designed to take their time underpowered and somewhat frustrating to play (although I am admittedly out of practice in the modern game!). Plinking away and spending significant amounts of time setting up kills when your enemies are all capable of killing you instantly requires more patience than I possess! For the same reason I dislike classes that don't have good area effect/multi-opponent capability. Too often these classes waste time setting up a kill only to be driven away before they can finish the job just because more enemies wander in. And where I hunt that happens ALL the time. The gen rates are quite high and every monster is deadly - you can't afford to ignore them while you finish your first target!

That's just my perspective, of course. I find a lot of enjoyment in the fast and deadly pace of combat in places like the Scatter. I can also admit that combat in less difficult places (plane 4, bandits) is rather boring. But that may have more to do with the fact that I'm 2x post-cap and have invested quite a lot into the gear that puts my combat stats far beyond "normal". But without that I'd have a lot of difficulty in the Scatter, so I guess it makes sense?

Anyway, I'm with you on the point that if all GS had going for it were the combat it would still fall short of other games which focus entirely on the "game" rather than roleplaying and interaction. I know some players claim they can take it or leave it when it comes to combat, but personally I suspect that's rather rare. As you say, most people probably want to level and they wouldn't be here if that's ALL they wanted.

~Taverkin

>Dancing around in an area where you have to be concerned about maneuvers, forcing creatures to stance, watching out for spellcasters, not letting environmental effects get out of hand (siren lizards spring to mind), making sure you keep track of what's going on around you (troll king limbs spring to mind)... that is "involved" combat.

Not all combat systems require you to stance critters, some just cut straight through it and users of those where you have to stance critters get outcompeted by users of those that cut straight through. Its not just open UAC that forces you to use set ups and results in you being outcompeted by those that don't have to. Warriors moan about their low AS for the same reason.

A mixture of a tank class to soak up the damage and a glass cannon class to dish it out is all well and good in D&D when the benefits are equally shared, but in GS you soak up the damage while they soak up the xp and it gets frustrating.