>but let's not pretend that asking for mana is going to make them the same as squares or that daggers will become claidhmores.

This is not what I was attempting to say at all. Someone was trying to claim low level pures should be able to hunt the same length of time as a melee swinger. I was listing off the limitations of the melee swinger that pures never have to worry about. There are so many benefits to being a pure already that if you remove the few negatives it will be boringly dull, god mode if you will. They already dont have to worry about blesses, hard rt, all spells have the same soft rt if they are a level 1 spell or a level 20 spell. They have it pretty great as is. It was already explained how to get more mana when starting out so they dont have 9 mana and lets be honest here, the first 10 levels go by so quickly. Even the OP said he was level 11 after a week and a half. Thats pretty amazingly quick(and should be another 44 mana if they 2x harness power).

Overcoming adversity and achieving goals is an important part of gaming. I get we want to keep new players but if we remove all difficulties laid out before every profession, then what? Then they get to level whatever and face a combat maneuver as a pure for the first time and hey, thats not nice! We should give them a higher defense against them and so on and so on. Low mana for pures, low ds for melee characters is a nice first obstacle for a new player to learn tactics and strategy against before their stroll through willy wonkas chocolate factory gets rudely interrupted by more scary things like disarm and then they really are angry.

>The low mana is hardly what I would view as a difficulty to overcome has a new caster. It's a restriction that makes no sense. There is zero in character, RP reason

Sure there are, he's not some wizened old wizard. Just the same as warriors not having redux or plate at level 2, a young wizard just starting out wouldnt have access to a bunch of spells or the mana to handle them.

>Do I expect wizards to be able to blast through level 10 mobs without trouble at level 2? No. Should they be able to minor shock their way through enough rats to at least get a full mind before resting? Yes.

Its more than plausible to minor shock your way to fried quite often at level 2, you just have to work up to it. Kill as many as you can, rest, soon as mana comes up, go back out. Eventually you'll get into the honey zone of being able to mostly fry and you wont be level 2 for more than 3 hunts anyway.

>On the other hand, I'm not the type of player to make my lower levels harder just for stat growth, so most of my little casters start with decent mana. But setting stats for growth is a common thing in GS, and I'm the "mutant" build when it comes to stats.

Thankfully with the 5 stat changes in the first 30 days its not an either/or situation. If he can get to level 11 in a week and a half, he probably can get to level 20 by the end of the 30 days and the mana stat would be less of a need and more of a useful thing then.

I agree, I am a big fan of Icemule as well. I think in the big picture though a lot of the goals in gemstone deal with grinding out experience or tasks to achieve long term and short term goals(level, skills, titles, guilds, societies) and enjoying reaching them. Hopefully in between those you are making friends, customizing your character, enjoying roleplaying and finding neat things in the loot system. It really is a lot of fun, it just takes a lot of patience.

I hope as your character reaches higher levels you start enjoying things more, I would strongly suggest you ask questions on the forums(here or the PC) about training when or if you have them. It's a good idea to get multiple opinions and choose which feels right to you, how one player plays isnt always the same as how others do.

>The biggest problem with mana for a pure is that it limits how long they can attack. A pure Empath with 4 mana at the start can cast Harm 4 times, takes about what, 15 seconds? Then they have to wait for their mana to regen at 15% every two minutes where their hunting to 25% every two minutes if they go to a node (provided they even know what a node is and where to find one). They then wait 8 to 14 minutes for their mana pool to refill.

A low level empath has TEN to THIRTY times this mana regeneration if they want it. Yes, you can make the game hard for low level characters by starving them of mana, but mana starvation is player choice not game mechanics.

No one claims its bad that Warriors who tank strength, train blunts and swing claidhs one handed while aiming at the eye struggle at level 1 and that the game needs to be changed so that they succeed. Why keep complaining that pures who do equally silly things struggle?

...

>I do expect to get to level 20 within my first 30 days if I play hard. However, I think I am probably the majority when it comes to a new player being able to do that.
>Most people that I have played, and would suggest try Gemstone, typically put in 2-4 hours a day.

First 30 day allowances are a whole lot more beneficial to characters on a fast pace, though 80 hours would get an experienced player close to 20 if they pushed for it.

I do think a level as well as a time deadline should apply. e.g. 30 days and level 15, particularly for new players.

...


A player in the OP's situation ought to be ringing the Silverwood bell, getting a prompt response from a Mentor who might not have recent experience of playing a low level empath but knows people who do. I can say "WWW, XXX, YYY, ZZZ are new empaths and are around quite a lot and you might benefit from sharing experiences with them. AAA and BBB started a bit longer ago and have got to quite high level now, and should be able to give you information about how it pans out if you stick with it. CCC and DDD are ancient but very friendly even if they might be a bit out of touch with the situation a new empath faces these days." The OP should have been able to get good advice from people with relevant experience via the Mentors.

Empaths are pretty common and visible and wounds are fairly frequent so I interact a fair amount with them, and I couldn't put together as extensive a list of names for any other profession, but I'm not a Mentor either and I still could manage WWW, AAA, CCC and DDD for most professions. A player in the OP's situation shouldn't be going to Lich and getting a load of old cobblers from those without recent relevant experience who are still purveying GS3 stereotypes.

yes the world is ending, population is falling, except it's been the same for 6 or 7 years.

Take your head out of the sand, Allereli. According to Mudstats.com the population 7 years ago was in the high 400s vs. Low 200s today. Are they wrong?

I have difficulty understanding the resistance to acknowledging this as an issue.

I also have a hard time understanding why the mentor program should be at odds with suggestions intended to address specific new player concerns.

Is it because of our perSonal disagreements? I really don't get it.

Taverkin

I think you over exaggerate the problem, and maybe are a bit paranoid from other things.

>Sure there are, he's not some wizened old wizard. Just the same as warriors not having redux or plate at level 2, a young wizard just starting out wouldnt have access to a bunch of spells or the mana to handle them.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Lets flip the view for a second. For now on, each time a warrior swings a weapon, it costs 15 stamina. This means a level 2 warrior only gets 3-4 swings then must rest and wait for stamina. This is the proper comparison, not a level 2 wizards killing power vs a warriors armor. Adding 20-30 mana to the lowest levels does nothing to improve a casters power. It simply makes their life suck a little less for a few levels. It's not game breaking. It is just giving them the tools to enjoy the game a little more then we did at those levels.

There is nothing wrong with changing things to make it easier for new players or newly made characters. Just because you had to find a way around the problem does not mean it should not be fixed

Just because we as old players have dealt with the mana issue does not mean it's not an issue. It's an improvement that would better the game for new players who opt to play casters, and is something that really should be put into place. Expecting new players to inherently understand that they should pick a caster class, and train purely physical for the first 30 days is extremely silly and counter-intuitive. We have a new player here voicing this information (and THANK you for doing it). By all means, we should be listening and adjusting.

I didn't have anything to do with the last thread. there it is again...

Anyway...

So you think the concern isn't warranted? Just curios as to why?

Have you ever had a player in their 30 days specifically mention the lack of mana at the low end as a positive? I haven't. Not once. Seriously, have you? I would be shocked if you had!

Have you ever had a player in their 30 days outside of this thread specifically mention lack of mana as a disappointing feature? I have. It pretty much comes up every time I meet a new player attempting to play a caster. New players always wonder why they can't seem to do much of anything useful due to having too little mana. Cmon, you can tell the truth! You aren't armed with all this great advice for overcoming low level mana deficiency for nothing!

~Taverkin

Taverkin..you are really pushing me to level a character in prime just so I can hang out with you.

We think a lot a like. =P

>Have you ever had a player in their 30 days specifically mention the lack of mana at the low end as a positive?

The problem is if you leave it up to the players we'd be playing a game where everyone started out with 10x held by anyone equipment, 500 mana, no encumberance, no dangerous critters, instant travel to every hunting ground, everyone would have a player shop, GMs would send us cake on our birthdays etc. Just because players dont like something doesnt mean its not good for the game or needed as a challenge.

I find it odd that so much emphasis is being placed on pures hunting in the early levels to gain experience. I confess to not being up on every fantasy author; but from what I have read, the general trend seems to be that pures gain spell knowledge from studying, not so much from going out and fighting creatures. I find it apropos that it takes a few levels to get to the point where you can even get to clear hunting on your own mana. The way to provide relief and at the same time deepen the roleplaying experience is to provide alternative forms of IC experience. Why is there the expectation that every class should be played the same way?

While it was obviously the intent from the origins of GS (Classic D&D, etc.), it isn't plausible to suggest that 30 days of hell make up for the intended imbalance between casters and non-casters. The high end requires years for most of us to achieve. What's 30 days? Except to a new player. It's all they have before they become another lost subscription. Isn't that more relevant at this point in time?

~Taverkin

I've been reading these threads (at least, the rare moments in them that are civil and productive) with some latent interest...

I've thought for a long time that we need to build some sort of comprehensive new player guide to GS4, and wondered about how it would look and what it would say. When many of us started, there were guides littered all over the net that gave you basic information as if you'd never seen a MUD window before: what stats to place where, what skills to train for what actions, how to move and talk and engage in combat, where to go for what sort of help, etc. Basically step-by-step advice for the first 5-10 levels of the game. That's how many of us learned the basics about how to enjoy playing GS, but that information has either vanished entirely, is scattered across forums and KP articles so it can't be easily located, or is woefully out of date.

So, as I was wondering what I would tell a new player and how, I decided to roll up a new pure character built as a pure and just see how it goes. Admittedly I'm a very experienced player, but I haven't rolled a new character in ages, so there was a bit of a fresh-eyes perspective on it. What I did was roll a human wizard with good early-game stats, did the sprite quest (which I still have major issues with as a new player's exposure to GS, but that's another topic entirely), some town exploration exp, the Thrak quiz and ran one message, which brought him to level 2. Then I front-loaded every available TP into pure combat skills (2x spell aim, 3x harness power and a couple of spell ranks), and took him to the ratacombs.

At level 2 he had 27 mana and a +60 bolt AS. Starting with an empty head, he was able to hunt to 'becoming numbed' before running out of mana using 901. Recovering full mana on a node took him back to clear, and the second hunt took him to numbed before running out of mana again.

I guess I'd say that's not bad as a brand new character. The third hunt would have brought him to fried for the first time, and he would have been able to keep hunting to fried using only his own mana if he went back out at muddled each time. Having a partner would make frying on his own power easy, but so would an extra 20 AS or an extra 15 mana.

I guess you could observe two potential broad problems from that information. One is that the character falls a bit short of being self-sufficient at hunting under his own power at level 2. He gets close to the goal of a full hunt, but doesn't quite get there, despite being played by someone who really knows what he's doing.

The second, and probably the more serious problem, is that no genuine new player would have set the character up in the way that I did, and almost no experienced player would advise them to do so. Stopping 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through a hunt was definitely a bit frustrating. It was a helluva lot less frustrating than stopping after two or three kills, though, which is what would have happened with 12-15 mana and a 45 AS.

Broad conclusions? One: the new character experience as a pure could maybe still use a bit of help. Front-loading a bit of harness power mana balanced out by diminishing returns later on could help, as could DS/TD pushdowns that scale away (like the 1106 effect for empaths). Either change implemented in a relatively small way could make a min-maxed pure capable -- albeit just capable -- of doing a full hunt solo with their own mana.

Two, which is much more important in my mind: genuine new players need to hear about the options available to play their character how they want, rather than how the entrenched cynicism of a decades-old player base has decided it should be done.

Dave, Brandain's Bard

<rather than give new pures the equivalent of a major enhancive item, I think it better to emphasize the use of magic items in the form of wands. I never had a mana problem because I used <wands. I tried sword and board early, got super bored, switch to wands/blood burst/mana disrupt and it was fun again and more in line with how I wanted my character to be. You do so much more <for a new pure by imbedding a few 80-90 mana rods for them than giving them a claid.


Oh I do all of that and much, much more. And I expect you do as well. But as much time and silver as I spend helping new players, I can't reach them all and I certainly don't have the time to supply them all with charged wands and imbedded rods to cover their mana deficiency throughout their 30 days! Even if I had an endless stockpile of charged wands, I couldn't possibly be there to supply every new player with wands on demand! Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect game design to help us in making GS fun from the start for new players.

Having said that, I can totally agree with the point that using spells and wands as a low level caster can be fun and much more in line with my image of a caster. So how about a wand that casts the lowest level professional circle spell available to the caster, has a finite number of charges, but may be recharged by the caster via a verb on a cooldown. So you recharge it between hunts and it extends your ability to hunt.

~Taverkin

<I'm pretty sure I have explained it in a previous post. I said something to the effect of overcoming adversity is part of the gaming world. Achievements have meaning when they are fought for <and mean less when anyone with an hour could do it blindfolded and drunk. I play a LOT of characters, I have three or four empaths, three wizards, two sorcerers and two clerics. Ive played <plenty of low level pures in their first thirty days. It isnt hell as you say. Its a pain, sure but so are most of the things in game to earn the more coveted things. Reading Brandain's post <below yours is a great solution in my eyes. Maybe have a premium contest but up the prizes for it and have people write new character guides for each profession and then put them on the <website and put a link on the first page to them. I think the key is to educate people new to elanthia about things rather than nerf the challenge the first 30 days give.


Yeah, I guess you did say all of that. Alright, well full circle then! I'm not convinced. You aren't convinced.

Guides are always good.

~Taverkin

>>Setting the expectation early on that training paths differ lets them know from the start that being a spellcaster will be an entirely different experience from being a square.

Agreed. Here's an exercise that doesn't sit too well, though, and I'm frankly having troubles with it.

I started three new players to the game. The players chose a dark elf sorcerer (ugh), a dark elf ranger (iNoRite?) and a giantman warrior. For my part, I decided to take up a challenge, and went for a gnomish TWC rogue. I also wanted this group to have a strong showing, so I fished around for some exceptionally low end gear - standard silver blessed weapons, wands for the sorcerer, a two hander for the warrior, etc. Nothing even enchanted, at that point.

We did the typical run around town (I didn't coach, I wanted to see what each player thought). The sorcerer and the ranger both had a spot of trouble with the 'terrible worm', but won through. And then, at the rip old age of a shade over two levels (we did a bit of message running), we headed out to seek our fortune.

It took some fast talking to explain why we should take turns swinging, and to back the warrior off from full power (ranger and rogue, too). But we were getting into the swing of it - right up until we hit our fourth creature. . . and the sorcerer didn't have any mana.

So we took a break to 'repool'. We talked about tactics, reviewed what happened, etc. We learned. And the next time out, we got six before the sorcerer had to come in. Even with the wands (remember, wands aren't a great choice below 5 trainings. . . there's a whole lotta waving going on, but it's not a sure fire thing).

We played off and on over the course of 4 months. Made it all the way to level 6, except the sorcerer, who's level 7 now, I think. And. . . we still talk about playing. As far as I know, all accounts are still active. As far as I know, no one is playing another character. And, as far as I know, this game is about 17th in enjoyment against other games we could play together. Hence the slow advance.

I don't know what the right numbers are, but I can tell you that 30 mana, or 30 spells at 3 seconds a piece, is 90 seconds. Get to 5th level and get yourself a 3rd level spell, and that (now) 50 mana is gone in 18 seconds. And I don't mind at all if we say let's triple it so we account for movement and chatter while hunting. Good! 270 seconds, or 54 seconds. Two points:

1) That there's so precipitous a drop between those two numbers is meaningful, and should be considered; and,
2) Even the 270 seconds (4.5 minutes, folks) makes every single pure in this game feel like an anchor to a semi or a square at the low end. If we want folks to team up over the long haul, it has to be (quick, someone distract Taverkin) fun to team up right from the start. Most of it is - except for this one glaring point.

I'm all in with keeping most of our history with us. Finding a way to shed this problem, though - it'll serve us well.

Doug

A few issues.

SPRITE QUEST:

The official says, "I can't pay you very much, but you'll be helping the town out a great deal. What I want you to do is make your way over to the Wehnimer's Museum. Go into the Grand Foyer and hide. The smugglers are planning a rendezvous there very soon, and I want you to gather any information you can about their next planned shipment. Once you've learned something, come back and find me."

The sprite whispers, "Oooh, I've always wanted to be a spy! This is great, and we can use DIRECTIONS MUSEUM to find the Wehnimer's Museum!"

>dir musDirections towards Lute's Liltings Music Shoppe: East.
>e[Wehnimer's, Erebor Square]

>dir museI don't know the way from here to Wehnimer's Museum.

>tell sprite repeatYou tell the sprite to repeat the last instruction.
The sprite yawns and wakes up.
The sprite says, "Use DIRECTIONS MUSEUM to find the Grand Foyer of the Wehnimer's Landing Museum. Hide there and gather information."

>directions museumI don't know the way from here to Wehnimer's Museum.

CAVE: (edited for brevity)

>The sprite says, "When we find the hideous creature, it will be time to attack! To do that, you just need to ATTACK the creature. If you know a spell and would like to try using it, you'll first have to PREPARE the spell by number, then once it is fully prepared, you will CAST AT the creature."
>A carrion worm slithers in.
>A carrion worm tries to bite you!
By amazing chance, you evade the attack!

>stance offYou are now in an offensive stance.
>pre 901You are not experienced enough to harness such power!

>stance offYou are now in an offensive stance.
>pre 901You are not experienced enough to harness such power!

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: +4 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +5 = +36
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: +11 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +84 = +108
... and hit for 4 points of damage!
Blow glances off the carrion worm's shoulder.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: -9 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +48 = +92
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: -6 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +21 = +62
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: -6 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +80 = +121
... and hit for 10 points of damage!
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: -16 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +64 = +115
... and hit for 10 points of damage!
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: -1 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +29 = +65
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

>attYou swing a falchion at a carrion worm!
AS: +0 vs DS: -1 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +87 = +123
... and hit for 20 points of damage!
The worm rolls over and dies.
A carrion worm no longer seems distracted.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

THRAK:

I could see where this could be frustrating for a new player also. Rather than answer with the correct number, I purposely answered with the correct verb.

What is the quickest method to see what each of your hands is holding?

1. Type DROP twice.
2. Use the GLANCE command.
3. Use the INVENTORY command.

>answer glance

The warrior Raging Thrak says, "That is incorrect, perhaps you should try again later."
You are gently escorted out by the warrior Raging Thrak.

This is the character stat/skill set for a Halfling wizard using option 1 recommended for new users.

1. Let us generate stats and skills for you. (For New Users)

Maximum Mana Points: 7 (Note: This is base mana from aura bonus/2)

STATS:

(CON) : 40 ... 5
(DEX) : 90 ... 35
(DIS) : 70 ... 5
(LOG) : 90 ... 25
(INT) : 50 ... 10
(STR) : 50 ... -15
(AGL) : 50 ... 10
(INF) : 50 ... -5
(WIS) : 80 ... 15
(AUR) : 90 ... 15

SKILLS:

5 Shield Use
5 Edged Weapons
5 Physical Fitness
5 Arcane Symbols
10 Magic Item Use
10 Spell Aiming
10 Harness Power
5 Elemental Mana Control
5 Elemental Lore - Air
5 Survival
5 Perception
5 Swimming
5 First Aid
5 Trading

Also

Silver: 123

>encumYour shoulders are beginning to sag under the weight of your gear, and your reactions are not very fast. Time to unload, perhaps?

Unload what? The only additional items I had that weren't auto-genned with the character were gifts from the sprite quest: a small shield, a threadbare pink woolen hood and a cloudy blue potion. I had deposited all but 123 silver.


Mark

>In the situation you described above I would suggest they not just mash 701 over and over til all their mana is gone but to try to hit each thing once. It conserves their mana. Also like what was said by someone else, it really would be easy to find a ranger blank imbed rod in a shop and find even a mid level sorc to imbed 80 charges of 701.

This would not work as well as you'd hope. This would depend on the sorcerer getting the ward off at least 2 to 3 times before the melee killing it.

701 does no direct damage the first cast, and on average you need to do 20-30 damage to get experience credit I've found. The first cast would open a bleeder and do 0 damage. The second cast would do 10 bleed damage and push the wound to 20 per round. The third cast would do an additional 20 damage, putting him over the threshold, that would allow for the melee to jump in.