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I've been playing Gemstone IV for about 2 weeks now and wanted to share some comments on my experience. All in all it has been a very positive experience, but there is definitely room for improvement if you want to entice new players to stay more than a few days.
For the most part, people have been very friendly! Coming from many many many years of playing other (usually free to play) MUDs, it is nice to see such an old community still having fun. The actual in-game communication for new players pretty much doesn't exist. In the beginning I was trying to use some help or ooc or newbie chat channel .. which doesn't exist. Once other players found out I was new (and not just a new character for an old player), the first suggestion was to get Lich which would enhance the experience of the game and open me up to immediate communication with people that are ready, for the most part, to help. I couldn't imagine playing the game without being able to talk to people and ask the stupid newbie questions I am sure get asked by every new player.
The complexity of the game mechanics is quite nice. I am a big fan of showing numbers during combat to see how I stack up to to the creatures I am attempting to hunt. The diversity of spells is very interesting as well. I can certainly see a lot of balance issues already with the different classes, but not being a PvP game I don't think that is going to be much of an issue. I can understand the desire for 'instant kill' skills to keep you on your toes, but I don't know how many times something has hit me with some open dRoll skill that I have no defense for, only to find my head torn off! For a new player, that is something that really turns me off of a game. I don't expect to be powerful or anything at a low level, but I do expect the game to be a bit easier until I get enough skills and spells and time to have some sort of defense!
Unfortunately the biggest thing that is driving me nuts is that when you roll up a caster class, you're going to have to wait a long time before you're actually going to cast anything useful! Most games these days let you cast spells reliably if you're a caster, and swing a sword reliably as a melee class. Being a caster, I would expect that my character uses spells to fight stuff. Looking at the way mana works in this game, it was pretty evident that is not the case for at least 20 levels or so. Shortly after creating my character and meeting some friendly people in Icemule, I was quickly instructed to re-roll my character and train completely in melee skills and assign my stats to melee specific stats. Not a very good experience for a new player that doesn't know that and not a very good story for players that are wanting to play a magic user! Essentially the first 30 days (20 levels or so) is intended to set your character as a melee character and kill as much stuff as possible and hopefully get high enough level to where you can actually start playing what you thought you would be playing from the start. Also, being a caster class I am not able to train in the melee skills enough in many respects to stay competitive with those that will continue to train in those skills because they are melee players! Not only does an Empath have to train in melee skills to kill stuff in their early years, but they can only train once per level making it MUCH more difficult to gain those early levels!
I love the NPC behaviors, and the way you can interact with them. I think there has been a terrific amount of detail added to this game that I haven't found many other places. Obviously there is a large desire from Simutronics for players to roleplay their characters and interact with the world. The way Gemstone shows what you're wearing and carrying is much nicer than what I have seen in the past. It really does lend itself to staying in character rather than just talking about the stats of the gear you're wearing.
I know that without a select few people that I have been privileged to meet (mostly due to my character being plopped down in Icemule rather than any other town), I would probably not have lasted as long as I have. I hope Simutronics spends some time enhancing their new player experience beyond what it is today. If there was simply a much more direct way of communicating with existing players when it comes to questions about the game, it would really help! The amulet chat channel is neat, but nobody uses it and it doesn't feel like a place where I would want to ask 'What should I set my strength to in the character generator?'
GUTTERSNIPE
RATHBONER
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 06:21 PM CST
> If there was simply a much more direct way of communicating with existing players when it comes to questions about the game, it would really help!
Did you try the Mentors?
Did you try the Mentors?
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 07:44 PM CST
>> Not only does an Empath have to train in melee skills to kill stuff in their early years, but they can only train once per level making it MUCH more difficult to gain those early levels!<<
Doing the sprite quest and talking to the old Thrak (or his equivalent) will get you to level 3 in about 15 minutes. Yeah, it's a bummer that casters often have to use weapons for the first 30 days, but it's fairly easy to do by underhunting. Whack roltons, giant ants and the like till level 5 or 6. By then you will have some decent mana, and can switch over to a pure caster at that point. Now, someone who is well familiar with game mechanics can actually play a pure caster from level 3 (levels 1 and 2 having been achieved via the means described above), but you have to know what you are doing, which newcomers don't.
Also, caster professions can in fact use weapons effectively with the proper training. My warmage capped using weapons for the full 100 levels, as did my cleric. My empath sort of switched back and forth a few times before settling down as a permanent THW wielder. Again, you need to have a good grasp of game mechanics to train properly for that sort of thing.
ATTENTION SIMUTRONICS!
I was mentioning the new player experience in another folder; you really have to get on the problem and make a better, more concise intro page for the new player if you want significant new customer retention. Maybe even a small pamphlet style description of the most common game mechanics (one page for each profession, perhaps). I spent an hour last night explaining things to a new player; that's the third time in the last week or so that I have met someone who was new and clueless, and spent time with them. I am thinking of submitting a Bill for Services Rendered to Simu business office.
Oh, and strongly discourage any newcomer from playing a monk; tell them that's for more experienced players who want a challenge ... or for masochists.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Doing the sprite quest and talking to the old Thrak (or his equivalent) will get you to level 3 in about 15 minutes. Yeah, it's a bummer that casters often have to use weapons for the first 30 days, but it's fairly easy to do by underhunting. Whack roltons, giant ants and the like till level 5 or 6. By then you will have some decent mana, and can switch over to a pure caster at that point. Now, someone who is well familiar with game mechanics can actually play a pure caster from level 3 (levels 1 and 2 having been achieved via the means described above), but you have to know what you are doing, which newcomers don't.
Also, caster professions can in fact use weapons effectively with the proper training. My warmage capped using weapons for the full 100 levels, as did my cleric. My empath sort of switched back and forth a few times before settling down as a permanent THW wielder. Again, you need to have a good grasp of game mechanics to train properly for that sort of thing.
ATTENTION SIMUTRONICS!
I was mentioning the new player experience in another folder; you really have to get on the problem and make a better, more concise intro page for the new player if you want significant new customer retention. Maybe even a small pamphlet style description of the most common game mechanics (one page for each profession, perhaps). I spent an hour last night explaining things to a new player; that's the third time in the last week or so that I have met someone who was new and clueless, and spent time with them. I am thinking of submitting a Bill for Services Rendered to Simu business office.
Oh, and strongly discourage any newcomer from playing a monk; tell them that's for more experienced players who want a challenge ... or for masochists.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
SNOWBEAM
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 07:56 PM CST
<<Oh, and strongly discourage any newcomer from playing a monk; tell them that's for more experienced players who want a challenge ... or for masochists.>>
While I appreciate the intent of this comment, I came back as a (returning) player and greatly enjoyed playing a monk. It's a viable class that was in no way painful. Monks are only underpowered compared to other classes, not compared to the game, really.
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
While I appreciate the intent of this comment, I came back as a (returning) player and greatly enjoyed playing a monk. It's a viable class that was in no way painful. Monks are only underpowered compared to other classes, not compared to the game, really.
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 08:07 PM CST
>>I came back as a (returning) player and greatly enjoyed playing a monk.<<
Aha! A returning player, which means you had some prior concept of game mechanics. My comment was in regard to the true newcomer, who would be pretty clueless how to train or hunt well.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male".
Aha! A returning player, which means you had some prior concept of game mechanics. My comment was in regard to the true newcomer, who would be pretty clueless how to train or hunt well.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male".
SNOWBEAM
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 08:12 PM CST
<<who would be pretty clueless how to train or hunt well.>>
Point them my way. I'll mentor them as long as they want. :)
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
Point them my way. I'll mentor them as long as they want. :)
-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.
DMWCINCY
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 08:27 PM CST
>>Oh, and strongly discourage any newcomer from playing a monk; tell them that's for more experienced players who want a challenge ... or for masochists.
To be honest I really do not like when people say new people should not do something because its too hard or not for newbies. This includes professions, training ideas, or for that matter being part of stories. Its not the right attitude to have when dealing with new people. Will it be harder for someone brand new to the game? Yes. Is this a great opportunity to introduce this person to others of same likes who can help this person in game...a whole lot more yes. Just because YOU do not think its the right way to go does not mean that this new player couldn't handle it.
I think a lot of this can be handled without anything new. You see a new face be friendly. Doesn't matter if its a brand new person or just a new alt. Just because its an alt this current player may not have ever played that profession before and need help...you do not know. New newbie areas, now amulet channels, new this or that will be useless without a community to support itself. We know new development will take time no matter what it is but us the current players can be a community now. For once why don't we put this on our shoulders and do something active ourselves instead?
Pup's Player
To be honest I really do not like when people say new people should not do something because its too hard or not for newbies. This includes professions, training ideas, or for that matter being part of stories. Its not the right attitude to have when dealing with new people. Will it be harder for someone brand new to the game? Yes. Is this a great opportunity to introduce this person to others of same likes who can help this person in game...a whole lot more yes. Just because YOU do not think its the right way to go does not mean that this new player couldn't handle it.
I think a lot of this can be handled without anything new. You see a new face be friendly. Doesn't matter if its a brand new person or just a new alt. Just because its an alt this current player may not have ever played that profession before and need help...you do not know. New newbie areas, now amulet channels, new this or that will be useless without a community to support itself. We know new development will take time no matter what it is but us the current players can be a community now. For once why don't we put this on our shoulders and do something active ourselves instead?
Pup's Player
SHAYD11
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 09:07 PM CST
>Oh, and strongly discourage any newcomer from playing a monk; tell them that's for more experienced players who want a challenge ... or for masochists.
I found playing a monk in the early levels actually easier than the other professions. The melee professions dont have a crazy AS to plow through critters and the casters dont have the mana to straight up wreck things under level 10 like UAC does. I was just running around punching things dead. One punch, one death.
As for the original topic, I agree with the suggestion to ring the doorbell for mentors. Its generally accepted by most that casters start out with melee but it is by no means impossible to level one up being a caster from the get go. Wizards have 901, sorcs have 702, empaths have 1101 and then 1106, clerics have 302. It might not be possible to gain a full head of experience but I find it more suiting to the character to cast. I think its important to clarify whats being suggested as min/max advice and what is actually needed.
I found playing a monk in the early levels actually easier than the other professions. The melee professions dont have a crazy AS to plow through critters and the casters dont have the mana to straight up wreck things under level 10 like UAC does. I was just running around punching things dead. One punch, one death.
As for the original topic, I agree with the suggestion to ring the doorbell for mentors. Its generally accepted by most that casters start out with melee but it is by no means impossible to level one up being a caster from the get go. Wizards have 901, sorcs have 702, empaths have 1101 and then 1106, clerics have 302. It might not be possible to gain a full head of experience but I find it more suiting to the character to cast. I think its important to clarify whats being suggested as min/max advice and what is actually needed.
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 09:35 PM CST
>>I found playing a monk in the early levels actually easier than the other professions<<
As always, YMMV. Just about any profession is easy at start, really. As I said, level 3 is the new starting point for actually playing on your own. I got a bit bored with my monk around level 13, so she's been idle for a while. I consider the monk profession broken because rogues and rangers can use the UAC better than the profession for which the system was designed, due to the hide & ambush factor. Yes, at least one person has played a monk to cap; never said it couldn't be done, just that newcomers might have problems. But even he agreed the profession has problems.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
As always, YMMV. Just about any profession is easy at start, really. As I said, level 3 is the new starting point for actually playing on your own. I got a bit bored with my monk around level 13, so she's been idle for a while. I consider the monk profession broken because rogues and rangers can use the UAC better than the profession for which the system was designed, due to the hide & ambush factor. Yes, at least one person has played a monk to cap; never said it couldn't be done, just that newcomers might have problems. But even he agreed the profession has problems.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
COYOTERRE
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 09:39 PM CST
I never had any of my pures swinging weapons to advance. I strongly disagree that this is the only way to advance a pure. I will agree that it is likely faster, but I also think it's notably OOC for someone to come into the game expecting to be a casting profession and have to tinker around with sword and shield, etc. What a turn off that would be.
Here's some alternative advice, which you may mock and criticize at your leisure.
1) Empaths used to be very welcoming and accomodating to new, low level empaths. Hang out with the other healers and make friends, and they will let you heal the blood and simple wounds. It's not exciting. It's not grinding out levels. But it is possible to advance. Especially during invasions, any and all help is welcome.
2) Bounties will give additional experience and provide non-combat opportunities as well.
3) Make friends. Group hunt in rats or ants or nymphs. Better to group hunt in places that drop treasure, and save all the wands. Make friends with an older ranger and an older wizard or sorceror and have them imbue and imbed a bag of wands for you. There are tons of folks in the Landing who would drool over that sort of "good deed of the day" activity.
- Note to this. Wand hunting does get expensive and it's a pain, but make a few equal level square friends and they will gladly trade wands they can't use for spells they can't cast. Spell duration is so much better than it used to be, that even a low level caster can offer some oomph to like level squares that will last long enough for a hunt or two.
4) The iron quest. I haven't done this in a while, but I recall it was awesome experience. This still possible?
5) Join a society. It's probably a terrible idea to join a society until you have time to study them all and understand the pros/cons, however the tasks will get you a little experience and exploration - and - you will make more friends.
Low level casters are weak. Make no mistake. But that is true in EVERY RPG. But there's plenty of options where you don't have to basically mechanically abuse the system to create a playable pure.
In my opinion, and in fairness (a big clump of salt to offer with my opinion), all my pures are low level, as they are not primary characters. My highest level pure is a 30 something empath - but, mind you, that healer has never, not once, killed a creature. I think once I cast an attack spell at something because I wanted to see how it looked.
Anyway, thanks to the OP for sharing their thoughts on being new in GS. Even from an old player like me, I appreciate the perspective.
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
Here's some alternative advice, which you may mock and criticize at your leisure.
1) Empaths used to be very welcoming and accomodating to new, low level empaths. Hang out with the other healers and make friends, and they will let you heal the blood and simple wounds. It's not exciting. It's not grinding out levels. But it is possible to advance. Especially during invasions, any and all help is welcome.
2) Bounties will give additional experience and provide non-combat opportunities as well.
3) Make friends. Group hunt in rats or ants or nymphs. Better to group hunt in places that drop treasure, and save all the wands. Make friends with an older ranger and an older wizard or sorceror and have them imbue and imbed a bag of wands for you. There are tons of folks in the Landing who would drool over that sort of "good deed of the day" activity.
- Note to this. Wand hunting does get expensive and it's a pain, but make a few equal level square friends and they will gladly trade wands they can't use for spells they can't cast. Spell duration is so much better than it used to be, that even a low level caster can offer some oomph to like level squares that will last long enough for a hunt or two.
4) The iron quest. I haven't done this in a while, but I recall it was awesome experience. This still possible?
5) Join a society. It's probably a terrible idea to join a society until you have time to study them all and understand the pros/cons, however the tasks will get you a little experience and exploration - and - you will make more friends.
Low level casters are weak. Make no mistake. But that is true in EVERY RPG. But there's plenty of options where you don't have to basically mechanically abuse the system to create a playable pure.
In my opinion, and in fairness (a big clump of salt to offer with my opinion), all my pures are low level, as they are not primary characters. My highest level pure is a 30 something empath - but, mind you, that healer has never, not once, killed a creature. I think once I cast an attack spell at something because I wanted to see how it looked.
Anyway, thanks to the OP for sharing their thoughts on being new in GS. Even from an old player like me, I appreciate the perspective.
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/25/2014 11:45 PM CST
>> I strongly disagree that this is the only way to advance a pure.<<
No one said it was.
>> I will agree that it is likely faster,<<
The point. Some folks want to get those early, relatively low power levels done and behind them.
>> but I also think it's notably OOC for someone to come into the game expecting to be a casting profession and have to tinker around with sword and shield, etc. What a turn off that would be.<<
On the other hand, I date waaaay back to early GSIII, when EVERYONE had to train in weapon and shield for defensive purposes, regardless of profession. Runestaves didn't exist. We just took it for granted that things worked that way. Sure, as things are now, if it offends your sense of RP to use a weapon, you certainly don't have to. Players have more options now than back then.
>>that healer has never, not once, killed a creature.<<
Hey, if you want to play a pacifist healer, you certainly can. My empath is totally the opposite. She's a warmongering bloodthirsty creature, whose primary training focus is hunting. She hates to sit around healing and will usually encourage folks in TSC to "stop whining and go buy some herbs" on those rare instances she happens to find herself there. Mind you, during invasions and such she will certainly pitch in and help; in emergencies, general need trumps personal preference.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
No one said it was.
>> I will agree that it is likely faster,<<
The point. Some folks want to get those early, relatively low power levels done and behind them.
>> but I also think it's notably OOC for someone to come into the game expecting to be a casting profession and have to tinker around with sword and shield, etc. What a turn off that would be.<<
On the other hand, I date waaaay back to early GSIII, when EVERYONE had to train in weapon and shield for defensive purposes, regardless of profession. Runestaves didn't exist. We just took it for granted that things worked that way. Sure, as things are now, if it offends your sense of RP to use a weapon, you certainly don't have to. Players have more options now than back then.
>>that healer has never, not once, killed a creature.<<
Hey, if you want to play a pacifist healer, you certainly can. My empath is totally the opposite. She's a warmongering bloodthirsty creature, whose primary training focus is hunting. She hates to sit around healing and will usually encourage folks in TSC to "stop whining and go buy some herbs" on those rare instances she happens to find herself there. Mind you, during invasions and such she will certainly pitch in and help; in emergencies, general need trumps personal preference.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 04:56 AM CST
>While I appreciate the intent of this comment, I came back as a (returning) player and greatly enjoyed playing a monk. It's a viable class that was in no way painful. Monks are only underpowered compared to other classes, not compared to the game, really.
Monk is the opposite of wizard, viable at low to mid level and while its downhill all the way from level 50, they remain playable into the 80s. It is an absolutely terrible experience beyond 90 though, and made all the worse by having had that time to get into character.
If you never expect to get a monk beyond 60, you'll be fine with one, but if you want a character that remains playable to cap and beyond, do not choose a monk. You'll get hooked into the character and then have hundreds of hours of humiliation at the hands of other professions before finally accepting the futility of it and retiring the best character you ever had.
A high level monk may be viable in storyline settings but its hopeless at bounty hunting. 0-90 I'd take about 85% of the critter bounties on offer, by the mid 90s down to 25%, and at 99 only possible to do any by switching to a mutant build. If I'd stayed at the same rate of partner bounties from 91-99 that I did from 65-90, I'd have done 200 on Planes 5 and 4. I actually did 2, one of the first which showed it really was not the sort of thing to repeat, and the last one before I capped as a final confirmation that retirement really was the only option. A struggle to survive solo and bitter humiliation when grouped is the monk's lot post 90.
Monks aren't underpowered compared to many old parts of the game, but they are underpowered in many newer hunting grounds where the density of critters has been designed to the current power level of the other professions. Plus open UAC is horrible everywhere in the presence of characters using other combat systems. To be viable, you have to be hasted when they are not, or they have to act like they are babysitting someone 20 levels lower than you actually are.
Monk is the opposite of wizard, viable at low to mid level and while its downhill all the way from level 50, they remain playable into the 80s. It is an absolutely terrible experience beyond 90 though, and made all the worse by having had that time to get into character.
If you never expect to get a monk beyond 60, you'll be fine with one, but if you want a character that remains playable to cap and beyond, do not choose a monk. You'll get hooked into the character and then have hundreds of hours of humiliation at the hands of other professions before finally accepting the futility of it and retiring the best character you ever had.
A high level monk may be viable in storyline settings but its hopeless at bounty hunting. 0-90 I'd take about 85% of the critter bounties on offer, by the mid 90s down to 25%, and at 99 only possible to do any by switching to a mutant build. If I'd stayed at the same rate of partner bounties from 91-99 that I did from 65-90, I'd have done 200 on Planes 5 and 4. I actually did 2, one of the first which showed it really was not the sort of thing to repeat, and the last one before I capped as a final confirmation that retirement really was the only option. A struggle to survive solo and bitter humiliation when grouped is the monk's lot post 90.
Monks aren't underpowered compared to many old parts of the game, but they are underpowered in many newer hunting grounds where the density of critters has been designed to the current power level of the other professions. Plus open UAC is horrible everywhere in the presence of characters using other combat systems. To be viable, you have to be hasted when they are not, or they have to act like they are babysitting someone 20 levels lower than you actually are.
GUTTERSNIPE
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 09:49 AM CST
I tried sitting in town and healing wounds, but the game put me in Icemule where people seem to rarely have any injuries that I could have healed away. If this was the only way I was going to gain experience, I think it would have taken at least my first 30 days to get to level 5! I realize this is a roleplaying game and I shouldn't care so much about levels. Be honest with yourself, and ask if you would have kept playing a game that every 15 days you got a new basic skill.
I also tried the bounty system. It had me going out to kill things that I couldn't even hit if I rolled 100s for an hour. They quickly snapped my neck though.
Make friends and group hunt rats? Make friends with who? The level 100 wizard or the level 100 wizard or the level 100 empath or the level 100 warrior? The lowest level character that I met in the first week of play was level 18.
I don't know what the iron quest is or where you would even find that. I would love to do other things than kill stuff all day, but I don't even know where to go for quests like that. The bounty system is great because it has a central location to get and turn in quests. Unfortunately every bounty I've come up against has been 'go kill x' or 'go kill x to get y'.
My problem with low level casters isn't that they are weak, it is that they are incredibly time consuming to level compared to their melee counterparts. At level 3 I had 9 mana, or there abouts. As someone pointed out, they could play a level 3 caster without much trouble. At 9 mana, you have 9 tries to kill something using the 1101 spell. If it took my 3 casts of that spell to kill a rat, I can kill 3 rats before going and sitting down. 3 level 1 rat kills for a level 3 character isn't going to be a very fun gaming experience for a new player. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not saying this game is for everyone. However, if you're wanting a larger playerbase (which most people I talk to are looking for), you will want to make some concessions to entice players that are expecting at least some familiarity to what is out there on the market.
I also tried the bounty system. It had me going out to kill things that I couldn't even hit if I rolled 100s for an hour. They quickly snapped my neck though.
Make friends and group hunt rats? Make friends with who? The level 100 wizard or the level 100 wizard or the level 100 empath or the level 100 warrior? The lowest level character that I met in the first week of play was level 18.
I don't know what the iron quest is or where you would even find that. I would love to do other things than kill stuff all day, but I don't even know where to go for quests like that. The bounty system is great because it has a central location to get and turn in quests. Unfortunately every bounty I've come up against has been 'go kill x' or 'go kill x to get y'.
My problem with low level casters isn't that they are weak, it is that they are incredibly time consuming to level compared to their melee counterparts. At level 3 I had 9 mana, or there abouts. As someone pointed out, they could play a level 3 caster without much trouble. At 9 mana, you have 9 tries to kill something using the 1101 spell. If it took my 3 casts of that spell to kill a rat, I can kill 3 rats before going and sitting down. 3 level 1 rat kills for a level 3 character isn't going to be a very fun gaming experience for a new player. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not saying this game is for everyone. However, if you're wanting a larger playerbase (which most people I talk to are looking for), you will want to make some concessions to entice players that are expecting at least some familiarity to what is out there on the market.
DMWCINCY
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 10:16 AM CST
A few things to try. Find and use wands. Wands are the best friend of casters very early until they have enough mana to fully hunt on their own. Go to the empath folder here on the forums. Many passionate empath players that can help you with skills and stats (despite what people say you dont need to swing a weapon first 30 days). Keep meeting people and asking for help. While icemule has quiet times there are some good people up there that can and will help. Not knowing your playing time though is hard to say who to look for. Lastly if you have specific questions type dir silverwood inside town. This will take you to the mentors place. Ring the doorbell and we will try fo help.
SHAYD11
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 11:06 AM CST
9 mana is rough, Im pretty sure if you upped the mana stat for the first 30 days(wisdom and influence?) though it could have been more like 20. Again, not a ginormous amount of mana but enough to make things easier(also upping the wisdom stat for CS as an empath for the first 30 days would also really help). I'd suggest the giant rats for maybe til level 4 or 5(which should be doable in the first 6 hours of hunting with the gift) and then try thryils which have at least mediocre loot. Other critters to try after that would be out the south gate too, including hobgoblins after thryils, lesser orcs or snowy cockatrices when hobs are too easy etc.
GUTTERSNIPE
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 11:31 AM CST
Thanks for the suggestions. I've made it to level 11 in the first week and a half using two-handed weapons and the kindness of wizards casting spells on me. I am thinking of trying the wands approach, but fear that if I run out of wands I won't have any viable way of doing combat. I hate the idea of relying on others to gain experience ... especially in a game so spread out as Gemstone.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 09:55 PM CST
I wish you folks would listen to what our new friend is saying. He's being polite about it, but I don't see where any of you acknowledged his honest complaint: He's getting by. He knows the tricks because other players before you have already told him. But he's not a GS player from 1995, willing to put up with this forever. He's a new player from 2014, and he's telling you that having no mana and being told to swing a weapon or sit around healing is not fun for him. You can't change that by suggesting he hunt rats until level 10, or swing a claidhmore, or stockpile wands. The fact that it's "better than it used to be" is no help to him now.
This should be obvious, but whenever I bring it up you folks always say the same things: You can level by underhunting, or using water wands on fire guardians, or swinging a claidhmore, or charity wands. And maybe at one time it made sense to make it difficult for casters initially, but how long does that last? About as long as the 30 day trial. Is that really what you want new players to experience? The pain of pure casters intended to justify their power later on? How is that a strategy for success?
~Taverkin
This should be obvious, but whenever I bring it up you folks always say the same things: You can level by underhunting, or using water wands on fire guardians, or swinging a claidhmore, or charity wands. And maybe at one time it made sense to make it difficult for casters initially, but how long does that last? About as long as the 30 day trial. Is that really what you want new players to experience? The pain of pure casters intended to justify their power later on? How is that a strategy for success?
~Taverkin
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 10:39 PM CST
>>whenever I bring it up you folks always say the same things:<<
Unfortunately, we aren't development GMs; all we who post on the forums CAN do is offer advice on how to work with the system as it exists now. In addition, programmer GM time appears to be rather limited, so Simu may not be able to address these issues immediately. Hopefully, this discussion here will provide some basis for improvement in the newcomer experience, but there is nothing we can do to expedite this, except perhaps by bringing it to their attention.
New player retention has been brought up as a topic in several venues.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Unfortunately, we aren't development GMs; all we who post on the forums CAN do is offer advice on how to work with the system as it exists now. In addition, programmer GM time appears to be rather limited, so Simu may not be able to address these issues immediately. Hopefully, this discussion here will provide some basis for improvement in the newcomer experience, but there is nothing we can do to expedite this, except perhaps by bringing it to their attention.
New player retention has been brought up as a topic in several venues.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
KRAKII
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 11:17 PM CST
Taverkin, in how many of any of the bigger games with gobs of subscribers and more or less of turnover, do characters wind up being perfectly playable every time? How many of their players re-roll a new player, once they've mastered the mechanics? Probably nearly all. So we are no different in that regard.
(As an example, "way back when" I plugged in 'Final Fantasy' in my NES. Great game, I was having a blast... but it was a LONG slog! Took me forever! I've been playing this for three nights, and I'm onlike level 5 or something! <pause to look at my party> Yep, everyone's got all their armor & weapons loaded on them and... say... what's this 'equip' command on the menu? CHECK THAT OUT, all my combat numbers just jumped like a squillion points! Suddenly, with the items not just on the character but in use I could blow through like five levels in an hour. And I went and re-rolled, because I had sold off some of the magical weapons just to keep up on healing.)
I liked Doug's big long laundry list of things, but at least some of them I see as not being workable (like "set it so that the user cannot install/use certain software"... unlikely to happen/be possible). Overall, though, there was a lot of positive outlook on possibilities.
Naturally, I am exempting things like the current WoW expansion, where "you just get level 90" for plonking down the money for the expansion. (And yes, any respect I had for them as a gaming company--as distinguished from a money-making business--went out the door.)
(As an example, "way back when" I plugged in 'Final Fantasy' in my NES. Great game, I was having a blast... but it was a LONG slog! Took me forever! I've been playing this for three nights, and I'm onlike level 5 or something! <pause to look at my party> Yep, everyone's got all their armor & weapons loaded on them and... say... what's this 'equip' command on the menu? CHECK THAT OUT, all my combat numbers just jumped like a squillion points! Suddenly, with the items not just on the character but in use I could blow through like five levels in an hour. And I went and re-rolled, because I had sold off some of the magical weapons just to keep up on healing.)
I liked Doug's big long laundry list of things, but at least some of them I see as not being workable (like "set it so that the user cannot install/use certain software"... unlikely to happen/be possible). Overall, though, there was a lot of positive outlook on possibilities.
Naturally, I am exempting things like the current WoW expansion, where "you just get level 90" for plonking down the money for the expansion. (And yes, any respect I had for them as a gaming company--as distinguished from a money-making business--went out the door.)
DOUG
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 11:31 PM CST
>> unlikely to happen/be possible
It's actually technically quite easy - a number of today's games include mechanisms that do exactly this. Of course it starts its own arms race, because in those games the intent would be to not allow it at all. The hardest part would be to get release of the FE code to insert the appropriate routines.
Here, it's very specific and time-bound, lasting only until the player for that character accepts and confirms. For old players well versed in the intricacies, it's a one time command entered quickly and painlessly. For the new player, it gives an opportunity to explore and ask questions -- and will likely lead to 80% acceptance. But it's made knowingly rather than learning 'by surprise'.
The bigger challenge will likely be the 'political' side of the issue. Without specific engagement and explanation of the necessity, showing the benefits, and explaining how its done I think fear will be rampant, and many will see it as an 'infringement of their rights'. And we don't do so well in that category, as a customer and management base, in my view.
Doug
It's actually technically quite easy - a number of today's games include mechanisms that do exactly this. Of course it starts its own arms race, because in those games the intent would be to not allow it at all. The hardest part would be to get release of the FE code to insert the appropriate routines.
Here, it's very specific and time-bound, lasting only until the player for that character accepts and confirms. For old players well versed in the intricacies, it's a one time command entered quickly and painlessly. For the new player, it gives an opportunity to explore and ask questions -- and will likely lead to 80% acceptance. But it's made knowingly rather than learning 'by surprise'.
The bigger challenge will likely be the 'political' side of the issue. Without specific engagement and explanation of the necessity, showing the benefits, and explaining how its done I think fear will be rampant, and many will see it as an 'infringement of their rights'. And we don't do so well in that category, as a customer and management base, in my view.
Doug
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Player Comments
11/26/2014 11:33 PM CST
<Taverkin, in how many of any of the bigger games with gobs of subscribers and more or less of turnover, do characters wind up being perfectly playable every time? How many of their players <re-roll a new player, once they've mastered the mechanics? Probably nearly all. So we are no different in that regard.
<(As an example, "way back when" I plugged in 'Final Fantasy' in my NES. Great game, I was having a blast... but it was a LONG slog! Took me forever! I've been playing this for three nights, <and I'm onlike level 5 or something! <pause to look at my party> Yep, everyone's got all their armor & weapons loaded on them and... say... what's this 'equip' command on the menu? CHECK THAT <OUT, all my combat numbers just jumped like a squillion points! Suddenly, with the items not just on the character but in use I could blow through like five levels in an hour. And I went and <re-rolled, because I had sold off some of the magical weapons just to keep up on healing.)
<I liked Doug's big long laundry list of things, but at least some of them I see as not being workable (like "set it so that the user cannot install/use certain software"... unlikely to <happen/be possible). Overall, though, there was a lot of positive outlook on possibilities.
<Naturally, I am exempting things like the current WoW expansion, where "you just get level 90" for plonking down the money for the expansion. (And yes, any respect I had for them as a gaming <company--as distinguished from a money-making business--went out the door.)
I'm not sure why you have so much difficulty acknowledging a problem. Do you not see one? Just answer the question: Does the new player have a point?
~Taverkin
<(As an example, "way back when" I plugged in 'Final Fantasy' in my NES. Great game, I was having a blast... but it was a LONG slog! Took me forever! I've been playing this for three nights, <and I'm onlike level 5 or something! <pause to look at my party> Yep, everyone's got all their armor & weapons loaded on them and... say... what's this 'equip' command on the menu? CHECK THAT <OUT, all my combat numbers just jumped like a squillion points! Suddenly, with the items not just on the character but in use I could blow through like five levels in an hour. And I went and <re-rolled, because I had sold off some of the magical weapons just to keep up on healing.)
<I liked Doug's big long laundry list of things, but at least some of them I see as not being workable (like "set it so that the user cannot install/use certain software"... unlikely to <happen/be possible). Overall, though, there was a lot of positive outlook on possibilities.
<Naturally, I am exempting things like the current WoW expansion, where "you just get level 90" for plonking down the money for the expansion. (And yes, any respect I had for them as a gaming <company--as distinguished from a money-making business--went out the door.)
I'm not sure why you have so much difficulty acknowledging a problem. Do you not see one? Just answer the question: Does the new player have a point?
~Taverkin
COYOTERRE
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 12:16 AM CST
>I tried sitting in town and healing wounds, but the game put me in Icemule where people seem to rarely have any injuries that I could have healed away. If this was the only way I was going to gain experience, I think it would have taken at least my first 30 days to get to level 5! I realize this is a roleplaying game and I shouldn't care so much about levels. Be honest with yourself, and ask if you would have kept playing a game that every 15 days you got a new basic skill.
Hi! Welcome to Elanthia!!!! :-)
Icemule is funny. It used to be that, back in the days of dinosaurs and raptors, that EVERYONE got hurt there because of the windchill factor. Then, with GS4, you could train in survival and BAH!
No, I agree. My aforementioned pacifist healer? Took him to Solhaven at one point, to be a healer in their TSC equivalent there. IT WAS MISERABLE AND I HATED IT. If not for the fact that he was a secondary character, that would have killed the game for me. Not because Solhaven is awful - it was lovely. But, as you said, no one was ever hurt, and if they WERE hurt, they had a healer they preferred, which wasn't my little silly boy.
There's a pretty big epic quest going on in Wehnimer's Landing right now, and it's possibly the only place where a Town Central healer can possibly make a go of things. Also, there's many invasions and wicked people and you might also get killed alot more than you will in Icemule. I love Icemule, by the way, it's my second favorite city, but having spent a little time in their town center since returning 8 months ago, I understand your concerns.
>I also tried the bounty system. It had me going out to kill things that I couldn't even hit if I rolled 100s for an hour. They quickly snapped my neck though.
It wasn't a perfect suggestion. My lil ones that I try to put on bounties when I log them in? More than half the time, it's something they can't or won't do.
I guess when I made the suggestion, it was the thought of doing "a little of this, a little of that" - multitasking assorted mundane tasks until such time as you've got coins for wands or resources or friends or whatnot that means you can go out and do a couple few hunts on your own terms.
- I am not an expert on anything related to Elanthia. Please bear that in mind. -
>Make friends and group hunt rats? Make friends with who? The level 100 wizard or the level 100 wizard or the level 100 empath or the level 100 warrior? The lowest level character that I met in the first week of play was level 18.
A couple of months ago, there was actually a little quest action in Icemule, on Thurfel's Island there. It's a shame you missed it, it would have been a good opportunity for you to make some friends etc etc.
>I don't know what the iron quest is or where you would even find that. I would love to do other things than kill stuff all day, but I don't even know where to go for quests like that.
I confess it's been awhile, but the iron quest was out of Wehnimer's Landing. Some kind soul will comment further on this in the thread! OR! I'll be called out and have to look up the info - however, if you are level 11 now, then it doesn't matter.
Do you not have a travel token? I thought all new characters got one. Because it might be hard to get to the Landing from IMT on your own, but the 15 (?) minutes it might take you with the travel guide, would be so very worth it, I think.
>My problem with low level casters isn't that they are weak, it is that they are incredibly time consuming to level compared to their melee counterparts. At level 3 I had 9 mana, or there abouts. As someone pointed out, they could play a level 3 caster without much trouble. At 9 mana, you have 9 tries to kill something using the 1101 spell. If it took my 3 casts of that spell to kill a rat, I can kill 3 rats before going and sitting down. 3 level 1 rat kills for a level 3 character isn't going to be a very fun gaming experience for a new player. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not saying this game is for everyone. However, if you're wanting a larger playerbase (which most people I talk to are looking for), you will want to make some concessions to entice players that are expecting at least some familiarity to what is out there on the market.
For what it is worth - I 1000% agree that one of the biggest game design concerns is that low level casters STINK. The mana system for being a low level pure is terrible and what it encourages - JUST PICK UP A CLAID? - is, from an RP standpoint? Absurd.
But, you know what's tricky? Is that, at a certain level, pures are pretty untouchable. Self cast. No outside spells, no help, no nothing. Yes, you have to know what to hunt (avoid roa'ters, for instance). So, in a way, you kinda want to make the first X levels kinda a real big pain in the derriere, because pures will reach a point where it simply will not matter anymore, at least until cap, where the hunting options are limited. They're going to be not only universally helpful to all the other professions, but they're also going to be relatively self sufficient and able to hunt certain areas at their leisure. Which is nice. As someone who focuses on rangers, I cannot say that at all - and I'm pretty darn good at hunting.
So, there's this notion of game balance and all that. Of which I am not a pro at all. Does any of that comfort you now? NO.
I do not have any more clever answers, but I am deeply appreciative of you sharing your concerns. Late night, glass of wine, tired from work, my answer is - young healer? Come to the Landing! You WILL find work and friends and help and it will change your view on everything. Spend that travel token to come to Wehnimer's Landing, get on the amulet and introduce yourself and let the magic happen.
Once you get there, I'll drop a few names of folks you should seek out. But, if you do that, I imagine I won't even have to tell you who to look for.
I hope I don't sound too flippant. I appreciate all that you're saying and I do hope you find some fun and decide to stick around. Thanks, again, for sharing. :-)
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
Hi! Welcome to Elanthia!!!! :-)
Icemule is funny. It used to be that, back in the days of dinosaurs and raptors, that EVERYONE got hurt there because of the windchill factor. Then, with GS4, you could train in survival and BAH!
No, I agree. My aforementioned pacifist healer? Took him to Solhaven at one point, to be a healer in their TSC equivalent there. IT WAS MISERABLE AND I HATED IT. If not for the fact that he was a secondary character, that would have killed the game for me. Not because Solhaven is awful - it was lovely. But, as you said, no one was ever hurt, and if they WERE hurt, they had a healer they preferred, which wasn't my little silly boy.
There's a pretty big epic quest going on in Wehnimer's Landing right now, and it's possibly the only place where a Town Central healer can possibly make a go of things. Also, there's many invasions and wicked people and you might also get killed alot more than you will in Icemule. I love Icemule, by the way, it's my second favorite city, but having spent a little time in their town center since returning 8 months ago, I understand your concerns.
>I also tried the bounty system. It had me going out to kill things that I couldn't even hit if I rolled 100s for an hour. They quickly snapped my neck though.
It wasn't a perfect suggestion. My lil ones that I try to put on bounties when I log them in? More than half the time, it's something they can't or won't do.
I guess when I made the suggestion, it was the thought of doing "a little of this, a little of that" - multitasking assorted mundane tasks until such time as you've got coins for wands or resources or friends or whatnot that means you can go out and do a couple few hunts on your own terms.
- I am not an expert on anything related to Elanthia. Please bear that in mind. -
>Make friends and group hunt rats? Make friends with who? The level 100 wizard or the level 100 wizard or the level 100 empath or the level 100 warrior? The lowest level character that I met in the first week of play was level 18.
A couple of months ago, there was actually a little quest action in Icemule, on Thurfel's Island there. It's a shame you missed it, it would have been a good opportunity for you to make some friends etc etc.
>I don't know what the iron quest is or where you would even find that. I would love to do other things than kill stuff all day, but I don't even know where to go for quests like that.
I confess it's been awhile, but the iron quest was out of Wehnimer's Landing. Some kind soul will comment further on this in the thread! OR! I'll be called out and have to look up the info - however, if you are level 11 now, then it doesn't matter.
Do you not have a travel token? I thought all new characters got one. Because it might be hard to get to the Landing from IMT on your own, but the 15 (?) minutes it might take you with the travel guide, would be so very worth it, I think.
>My problem with low level casters isn't that they are weak, it is that they are incredibly time consuming to level compared to their melee counterparts. At level 3 I had 9 mana, or there abouts. As someone pointed out, they could play a level 3 caster without much trouble. At 9 mana, you have 9 tries to kill something using the 1101 spell. If it took my 3 casts of that spell to kill a rat, I can kill 3 rats before going and sitting down. 3 level 1 rat kills for a level 3 character isn't going to be a very fun gaming experience for a new player. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not saying this game is for everyone. However, if you're wanting a larger playerbase (which most people I talk to are looking for), you will want to make some concessions to entice players that are expecting at least some familiarity to what is out there on the market.
For what it is worth - I 1000% agree that one of the biggest game design concerns is that low level casters STINK. The mana system for being a low level pure is terrible and what it encourages - JUST PICK UP A CLAID? - is, from an RP standpoint? Absurd.
But, you know what's tricky? Is that, at a certain level, pures are pretty untouchable. Self cast. No outside spells, no help, no nothing. Yes, you have to know what to hunt (avoid roa'ters, for instance). So, in a way, you kinda want to make the first X levels kinda a real big pain in the derriere, because pures will reach a point where it simply will not matter anymore, at least until cap, where the hunting options are limited. They're going to be not only universally helpful to all the other professions, but they're also going to be relatively self sufficient and able to hunt certain areas at their leisure. Which is nice. As someone who focuses on rangers, I cannot say that at all - and I'm pretty darn good at hunting.
So, there's this notion of game balance and all that. Of which I am not a pro at all. Does any of that comfort you now? NO.
I do not have any more clever answers, but I am deeply appreciative of you sharing your concerns. Late night, glass of wine, tired from work, my answer is - young healer? Come to the Landing! You WILL find work and friends and help and it will change your view on everything. Spend that travel token to come to Wehnimer's Landing, get on the amulet and introduce yourself and let the magic happen.
Once you get there, I'll drop a few names of folks you should seek out. But, if you do that, I imagine I won't even have to tell you who to look for.
I hope I don't sound too flippant. I appreciate all that you're saying and I do hope you find some fun and decide to stick around. Thanks, again, for sharing. :-)
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 03:43 AM CST
Perhaps a simple disclaimer or fact sheet could appear when someone rolls up a new character. Something that says a blurb to the effect that "spell casters are weak at first but very strong later on, arms users are strong initially but weaker than casters at upper levels, and semis are in between throughout their careers." Then they'd be duly warned what to expect.
Heck, if you rolled up a level 1 magic user in classic D&D, you could, if lucky, cast a couple of weak magic missile spells (and that's if the DM allowed bonus spells for high IQ), after which you were relegated to poking things with your dagger while in your AC9 robes and hoping to roll a 20.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Heck, if you rolled up a level 1 magic user in classic D&D, you could, if lucky, cast a couple of weak magic missile spells (and that's if the DM allowed bonus spells for high IQ), after which you were relegated to poking things with your dagger while in your AC9 robes and hoping to roll a 20.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 07:18 AM CST
I don't think this is true any more. (apart from wizards) Clerics and empaths in particular have had lots of dev over the last ten years that has completely changed how best to play them at low level and swingers had lots of dev that gives high level boosts.
The real problem new players have is they get bad advice on how to play because they talk to people who haven't been "new" is twenty years and think you still have to play the game the way they played back in GS3.
Most established players have a rubbish idea on how to help a new player. Even 4 months into playing a monk I was finding myself giving advice that really was suitable to an established player 4 weeks in to playing a monk rather than a new player just out of the mangler, because I'd forgotten just what it was like to play those early levels despite having gone through them 3 times in the past year and because I shot through them in a few hours playing time without actually experiencing the difficulties a new player has. My experience of what its like to be a new player is back in the 20th century and the game has changed drastically since then.
...
Here's another suggestion.
Presumably there is training for Mentor's on how to help new players. Occasionally (once a year?) run an event based on getting that training out to other players who, like me, are out of touch and disconnected from the current new player experience but would like to help new players play the way they want to rather than instructing them in the way I had to play the game 15 years ago.
I've got a pretty good test for whether a player is truly new or just a new character on an old player. If they are truly new, its far, far, more difficult to help them. I can put myself in the shoes of an alt or a returning player, see the game as they see it, a short conversation and a little information and they are away doing what they want to do. But its rally hard to get myself to see the world as a player that is level 2 for the first time is seeing it. Players that are level 20 for the first time I manage to help, even with quite tricky issues, but level 2 for the first time is just too small a part of my experience at too long ago to draw on successfully.
The real problem new players have is they get bad advice on how to play because they talk to people who haven't been "new" is twenty years and think you still have to play the game the way they played back in GS3.
Most established players have a rubbish idea on how to help a new player. Even 4 months into playing a monk I was finding myself giving advice that really was suitable to an established player 4 weeks in to playing a monk rather than a new player just out of the mangler, because I'd forgotten just what it was like to play those early levels despite having gone through them 3 times in the past year and because I shot through them in a few hours playing time without actually experiencing the difficulties a new player has. My experience of what its like to be a new player is back in the 20th century and the game has changed drastically since then.
...
Here's another suggestion.
Presumably there is training for Mentor's on how to help new players. Occasionally (once a year?) run an event based on getting that training out to other players who, like me, are out of touch and disconnected from the current new player experience but would like to help new players play the way they want to rather than instructing them in the way I had to play the game 15 years ago.
I've got a pretty good test for whether a player is truly new or just a new character on an old player. If they are truly new, its far, far, more difficult to help them. I can put myself in the shoes of an alt or a returning player, see the game as they see it, a short conversation and a little information and they are away doing what they want to do. But its rally hard to get myself to see the world as a player that is level 2 for the first time is seeing it. Players that are level 20 for the first time I manage to help, even with quite tricky issues, but level 2 for the first time is just too small a part of my experience at too long ago to draw on successfully.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 03:50 PM CST
<Perhaps a simple disclaimer or fact sheet could appear when someone rolls up a new character. Something that says a blurb to the effect that "spell casters are weak at first but very strong <later on, arms users are strong initially but weaker than casters at upper levels, and semis are in between throughout their careers." Then they'd be duly warned what to expect.
<Heck, if you rolled up a level 1 magic user in classic D&D, you could, if lucky, cast a couple of weak magic missile spells (and that's if the DM allowed bonus spells for high IQ), after <which you were relegated to poking things with your dagger while in your AC9 robes and hoping to roll a 20.
You illustrate the point perfectly, old-timer. I get it. Back in your day, when classic D&D was a relevant model, players didn't mind having no mana as a caster. We just accepted it. And we loved it! Heck, we loved it if our dial-up internet allowed us to connect at all! But this is not the 80s and 90s. It's going on 2015 and chances are good you're going to see some new players who don't give a rat's furry butt about classic D&D and the pain and suffering casters should be expected to feel early on as justification for all the cool spells they get. That isn't how games work these days. Just as your high-speed internet has changed your expectations of being able to play the game, advancements in gaming have changed the expectations of some new players.
This thread was started by one who is telling you exactly that. He doesn't care about classic D&D or what you had to go through in GS3. He simply observes that, if you want to play a caster, GSIV is not a good place to do it (from the perspective of a new player starting out). That's obvious from my perspective, and I've been saying this for years. But a lot of you seem highly resistant to even acknowledging the possibility that this might be a problem rather than "the way it should be". BTW, thanks Bill, for acknowledging the problem.
I'll try to write up one suggestion for improvement to get the ball rolling and see where it goes from there, but in my opinion we have allowed this low level situation to go on for far too long. There is no way this is good for the game. Most of us established players barely feel the bite of it. We know the low levels don't last long in the big scheme of things. Not only do new players not know that, they haven't been hooked by everything GS has to offer. At the moment where we should be presenting them with the best of GS, we show them the very worst which only established players understand is but a fleeting moment in the average GS player's career. You do see that, don't you?
~Taverkin
<Heck, if you rolled up a level 1 magic user in classic D&D, you could, if lucky, cast a couple of weak magic missile spells (and that's if the DM allowed bonus spells for high IQ), after <which you were relegated to poking things with your dagger while in your AC9 robes and hoping to roll a 20.
You illustrate the point perfectly, old-timer. I get it. Back in your day, when classic D&D was a relevant model, players didn't mind having no mana as a caster. We just accepted it. And we loved it! Heck, we loved it if our dial-up internet allowed us to connect at all! But this is not the 80s and 90s. It's going on 2015 and chances are good you're going to see some new players who don't give a rat's furry butt about classic D&D and the pain and suffering casters should be expected to feel early on as justification for all the cool spells they get. That isn't how games work these days. Just as your high-speed internet has changed your expectations of being able to play the game, advancements in gaming have changed the expectations of some new players.
This thread was started by one who is telling you exactly that. He doesn't care about classic D&D or what you had to go through in GS3. He simply observes that, if you want to play a caster, GSIV is not a good place to do it (from the perspective of a new player starting out). That's obvious from my perspective, and I've been saying this for years. But a lot of you seem highly resistant to even acknowledging the possibility that this might be a problem rather than "the way it should be". BTW, thanks Bill, for acknowledging the problem.
I'll try to write up one suggestion for improvement to get the ball rolling and see where it goes from there, but in my opinion we have allowed this low level situation to go on for far too long. There is no way this is good for the game. Most of us established players barely feel the bite of it. We know the low levels don't last long in the big scheme of things. Not only do new players not know that, they haven't been hooked by everything GS has to offer. At the moment where we should be presenting them with the best of GS, we show them the very worst which only established players understand is but a fleeting moment in the average GS player's career. You do see that, don't you?
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 04:39 PM CST
Suggestion:
Change harness power so that the first rank per level equals the corresponding skill points per rank or 3 mana, whichever is higher. In other words, your first 10 ranks provide 5 mana per rank, the next 10 provide 4 mana per rank, and then 3 mana for each rank up to your level from there on just as it is now. Additional ranks per level are weighted to provide greater benefits for 2x training: 1.5 mana for the second rank, but only 0.5 mana for the third rank. The reasoning being that only post-cap players can truly afford to train a third rank in harness power anyway, and they don't have mana problems. Better to weight it for the benefit of the low levels and leveling players, in my opinion.
In addition, due to the conflict between long-term stat growth and the mana stat (which is confusing to new players!), I propose we do away with linking it to starting mana stat and instead simply provide the baseline of 25 mana plus applicable racial bonuses/penalties currently associated with the mana stat. For instance, halflings get -5 aura penalty. Thus a halfling wizard starting out would have 20 - 5 = 20 base mana before any harness power is applied.
So how would this play out?
Basically, no matter what you do with your stats, you start out with 15-35 base mana. The starting range becomes 20-42 mana instead of 3-40. From there on, you gain an additional 20 mana over the first 10 levels and another 10 additional over the next 10 levels. And you can gain another 10 additional mana over the course of 20 levels current system if you 2x harness power (there is no gain/loss for the third rank relative to the current system).
So if a new player makes it to level 20 and is advised to place stats for growth, instead of a level 20 halfling wizard with 60 (1x HP) to 80 (2x HP) and zero base mana from tanking the aura stat for growth, that halfling wizard has 110 mana (1x) or 140 mana (2x).
It's far from limitless, but should allow a great deal more freedom with no possibility of new players messing it up and ending up frustrated and unable to be a caster from the start.
On the other end, the impact of 2x harness power is significantly greater over time (150 mana over 100 ranks instead of only 100), but the maximum mana pool is only increased by 30 points due to the first 20 levels and only a post-cap player would likely consider training the third rank at 0.5 mana per rank and triple the cost! I think this would help out a little bit with caster classes at the high end who currently have efficiency problems, but don't necessarily want to spend the next year training harness power rank by rank to get to 3x!
What do you guys think? Would this help ease up on the lowbie casters without disrupting the overall game too much? If the changes to 2x and 3x are too much for you, what about the first two suggestions by themselves? Those should only really impact the low levels, aside from the extra mana from the first 20 skill ranks and the mana stat bonus which currently is lost to stat growth. But I think most high level casters could use a bit more mana before they get to 2x or 3x harness power and mana becomes almost a non-issue.
~Taverkin
Change harness power so that the first rank per level equals the corresponding skill points per rank or 3 mana, whichever is higher. In other words, your first 10 ranks provide 5 mana per rank, the next 10 provide 4 mana per rank, and then 3 mana for each rank up to your level from there on just as it is now. Additional ranks per level are weighted to provide greater benefits for 2x training: 1.5 mana for the second rank, but only 0.5 mana for the third rank. The reasoning being that only post-cap players can truly afford to train a third rank in harness power anyway, and they don't have mana problems. Better to weight it for the benefit of the low levels and leveling players, in my opinion.
In addition, due to the conflict between long-term stat growth and the mana stat (which is confusing to new players!), I propose we do away with linking it to starting mana stat and instead simply provide the baseline of 25 mana plus applicable racial bonuses/penalties currently associated with the mana stat. For instance, halflings get -5 aura penalty. Thus a halfling wizard starting out would have 20 - 5 = 20 base mana before any harness power is applied.
So how would this play out?
Basically, no matter what you do with your stats, you start out with 15-35 base mana. The starting range becomes 20-42 mana instead of 3-40. From there on, you gain an additional 20 mana over the first 10 levels and another 10 additional over the next 10 levels. And you can gain another 10 additional mana over the course of 20 levels current system if you 2x harness power (there is no gain/loss for the third rank relative to the current system).
So if a new player makes it to level 20 and is advised to place stats for growth, instead of a level 20 halfling wizard with 60 (1x HP) to 80 (2x HP) and zero base mana from tanking the aura stat for growth, that halfling wizard has 110 mana (1x) or 140 mana (2x).
It's far from limitless, but should allow a great deal more freedom with no possibility of new players messing it up and ending up frustrated and unable to be a caster from the start.
On the other end, the impact of 2x harness power is significantly greater over time (150 mana over 100 ranks instead of only 100), but the maximum mana pool is only increased by 30 points due to the first 20 levels and only a post-cap player would likely consider training the third rank at 0.5 mana per rank and triple the cost! I think this would help out a little bit with caster classes at the high end who currently have efficiency problems, but don't necessarily want to spend the next year training harness power rank by rank to get to 3x!
What do you guys think? Would this help ease up on the lowbie casters without disrupting the overall game too much? If the changes to 2x and 3x are too much for you, what about the first two suggestions by themselves? Those should only really impact the low levels, aside from the extra mana from the first 20 skill ranks and the mana stat bonus which currently is lost to stat growth. But I think most high level casters could use a bit more mana before they get to 2x or 3x harness power and mana becomes almost a non-issue.
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 05:05 PM CST
Just thinking it over, maybe the 2x bonus could be scaled back? Between the mana stat bonus, which practically speaking doesn't apply to capped casters due to that conflict between growth and the mana being linked to the starting stat value, 2x harness power at cap would result in right around 500 mana - quite a difference from the 400ish we expect currently! Not quite what I intended. Maybe 1.25 mana for the second rank and 0.75 for the third?
So, to use the halfling wizard example again...
Level 1 = 25 mana (1x), 26 mana (2x)
Level 10 = 70 mana (1x), 82 mana (2x)
Level 20 = 110 mana (1x), 135 (2x)
Level 50 = 200 mana (1x), 262 (2x)
Level 75 = 275 mana (1x), 369 (2x)
Level 100 = 350 mana (1x), 475 (2x), 550 (3x)
That doesn't seem so bad. Certainly the low end looks a lot better to me. I dunno, though. Maybe the weighting on 2x vs. 3x isn't an idea that needs to fly.
~Taverkin
So, to use the halfling wizard example again...
Level 1 = 25 mana (1x), 26 mana (2x)
Level 10 = 70 mana (1x), 82 mana (2x)
Level 20 = 110 mana (1x), 135 (2x)
Level 50 = 200 mana (1x), 262 (2x)
Level 75 = 275 mana (1x), 369 (2x)
Level 100 = 350 mana (1x), 475 (2x), 550 (3x)
That doesn't seem so bad. Certainly the low end looks a lot better to me. I dunno, though. Maybe the weighting on 2x vs. 3x isn't an idea that needs to fly.
~Taverkin
GUTTERSNIPE
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 05:58 PM CST
I like the idea! How much mana do people typically have at level 100? I certainly like the idea of being able to use spells at level 1. 25 mana would really have helped me stay true to my class and sling some spells instead of picking up a weapon, knowing that I have a limited number of days before I need to reset my stats to what a caster should be. It would also help from an RP aspect, where people wouldn't need to put their stats specifically to help melee and then reset at the end of their 30 days.
Another thing that would be really helpful is showing what someones stats are going to be at level 100 when you're assigning them. Luckily I read through the documentation and found a neat excel spreadsheet that someone had made to help with that ... but how many people are going to do that? How many players are setting their stats having no idea what they will end up like and getting caught suffering through the game post their 30 days?
Another thing that would be really helpful is showing what someones stats are going to be at level 100 when you're assigning them. Luckily I read through the documentation and found a neat excel spreadsheet that someone had made to help with that ... but how many people are going to do that? How many players are setting their stats having no idea what they will end up like and getting caught suffering through the game post their 30 days?
TRINITIS2
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 07:42 PM CST
>My problem with low level casters isn't that they are weak, it is that they are incredibly time consuming to level compared to their melee counterparts. At level 3 I had 9 mana, or there abouts. As someone pointed out, they could play a level 3 caster without much trouble. At 9 mana, you have 9 tries to kill something using the 1101 spell. If it took my 3 casts of that spell to kill a rat, I can kill 3 rats before going and sitting down. 3 level 1 rat kills for a level 3 character isn't going to be a very fun gaming experience for a new player. I'm not saying it's impossible, and I'm not saying this game is for everyone. However, if you're wanting a larger playerbase (which most people I talk to are looking for), you will want to make some concessions to entice players that are expecting at least some familiarity to what is out there on the market.
The way I deal with this is actually doing a "lowbie" training plan for the first 5-8 levels. I 3x spells, and dump all spare points into harness power. With the proper starting stats and training in this way, you can get close to 20 at level 3ish. I maintain this training plan until level 8 or so, then stop training in Harness power until I've leveled up enough for my ranks to equal 1x or 2x, depending on my desired build. You don't get any extra skills, but at the low levels, the mana and spell ranks are much more important.
An example would look something like :
Level 0 - all into HP.
Level 1 to 3 - 3x spells, rest into HP.
level 4 to 8 - 2x spells and all rest into HP.
level 8+ - 2x spells, normal training plan minus HP until I get to 2x HP, then 2x HP for the rest of my levels.
The way I deal with this is actually doing a "lowbie" training plan for the first 5-8 levels. I 3x spells, and dump all spare points into harness power. With the proper starting stats and training in this way, you can get close to 20 at level 3ish. I maintain this training plan until level 8 or so, then stop training in Harness power until I've leveled up enough for my ranks to equal 1x or 2x, depending on my desired build. You don't get any extra skills, but at the low levels, the mana and spell ranks are much more important.
An example would look something like :
Level 0 - all into HP.
Level 1 to 3 - 3x spells, rest into HP.
level 4 to 8 - 2x spells and all rest into HP.
level 8+ - 2x spells, normal training plan minus HP until I get to 2x HP, then 2x HP for the rest of my levels.
TRINITIS2
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 07:53 PM CST
I completely love this idea Taverkin. Like you, I HATE starting a new caster and slogging through the mana troubles. Seeing a character starting with 25+ mana would be awesome.
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 08:32 PM CST
>>we loved it if our dial-up internet allowed us to connect at all!<<
::Blink::
You mean my 256K dial-up modem is obsolete?? Darn! I guess I should splurge and get that 512K model.
>>That isn't how games work these days.<<
Not quite true; many still do.
>> In other words, your first 10 ranks provide 5 mana per rank, the next 10 provide 4 mana per rank, and then 3 mana for each rank up to your level from there on just as it is now. <<
OK, this suggestion is one I rather like! Low level casters won't become overpowered, simply because they will still only have access to a few low power spells, but they will have the mana to use the ones they do have more frequently. Hey GMs! Make up a beta test area so we can see how this works at various levels.
>>How much mana do people typically have at level 100? <<
My level 100 gals have all only trained 1x in HP, and have around 320 or so mana. 2x in HP would give them 100 more.
>>Another thing that would be really helpful is showing what someones stats are going to be at level 100 when you're assigning them. Luckily I read through the documentation and found a neat excel spreadsheet that someone had made to help with that ... but how many people are going to do that?<<
Another excellent point; a new player wouldn't even realize this even exists as a possible future problem. Another thing to include in any new player help document.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
::Blink::
You mean my 256K dial-up modem is obsolete?? Darn! I guess I should splurge and get that 512K model.
>>That isn't how games work these days.<<
Not quite true; many still do.
>> In other words, your first 10 ranks provide 5 mana per rank, the next 10 provide 4 mana per rank, and then 3 mana for each rank up to your level from there on just as it is now. <<
OK, this suggestion is one I rather like! Low level casters won't become overpowered, simply because they will still only have access to a few low power spells, but they will have the mana to use the ones they do have more frequently. Hey GMs! Make up a beta test area so we can see how this works at various levels.
>>How much mana do people typically have at level 100? <<
My level 100 gals have all only trained 1x in HP, and have around 320 or so mana. 2x in HP would give them 100 more.
>>Another thing that would be really helpful is showing what someones stats are going to be at level 100 when you're assigning them. Luckily I read through the documentation and found a neat excel spreadsheet that someone had made to help with that ... but how many people are going to do that?<<
Another excellent point; a new player wouldn't even realize this even exists as a possible future problem. Another thing to include in any new player help document.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
KRAKII
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 09:25 PM CST
Taverkin, I did not say it was not a problem. In fact, I liked most of Doug's suggestions to help alleviate the situation.
I just said that we were not alone in that problem. And that it is a problem of long-standing, and quite familiar in the genre/trope. Spell-casters suck in combat, and stay back. Weapon-swingers are good in combat--incluing "early on in the game"--and are up front. This is in fact the entire genesis of the 'Tank' build archetype in, well... everything, nowadays. You Get A Tank. He sits up front getting beat on. You put your buffs on him--from everyone--and he survives, and meanwhile your damage-producers are potting away at range. They need that protection because--see point #1--they suck in combat. Initially.
Just because it's a stereotype, doesn't make it untrue. The reason big world-changing cosmic power is permitted later on, is because you're a weenie at the start. There isn't anything new here, and it's not much of a surprise to anyone entering games of this type. You do not typically start as Conan, King of Aquilonia (unless you just bought the newest WoW expansion, with auto-level to 90th according to their commercials); you start as the half-naked savage with a sword and a loincloth.
.
My only problem with your 'additional mana' idea is that I am an experienced player, so I've dealt with it before, so I don't really see it as a problem. And I played D&D, including as a spellcaster, and was used to the whole "you only get to cast like, once" and then you beat things to death with the stick in your hands. We've already made low-level spell-casting easier four times here (first change was to give mana at lower stat values; second was to start with an initial pool based on your mana stat and then the third at the same time was to give +3 mana/level if you trained in it, as well as the fourth of adding the possibility of as much as +2/level after that if you chose).
But that is just my perception, because I'm used to dealing with it. So no, I do not see it as a real problem... for my characters. <shrug>
A true newbie to the game? Sure, it may be a lot harder for them. I can see value in opening up more mana for them.
.
On the other hand--and speaking as the player of several spell-casting characters--I don't really see a need for higher level characters, who by now know what they're doing, to reap the benefit of a fat pool of additional free mana if we change the way things work.
I'd be much more inclined to just give a brand new character (maybe spellcasters & semis only?) an Enhancive item for +40 mana (or whatever number we come up with; semis only half as much?) that they get bright red warning messages if they try to throw away, and it works ONLY while the character is lower than 11th level.
(i.e. You get +40 mana for free, no training necessary, for the first ten levels.)
Then the item breaks.
EVERY time you make a level, you get messaged about it going to break.
EVERY time you level, you get messaged about how important it is for your profession to train in Harness Power if you want to use mana.
.
But I can see the start of a slippery slope problem, too, though.
Do we give the weapon-swingers a free +20 weapon? How do we set it up that they can hold it [normally 10th level for +20 items]? It should be easier for them, too, shouldn't it? Why do they/spell-casters get this cool thing and we/Tanks don't? If we only give semis half as much mana, do we give them only a +10 weapon instead? Have the mana Enhancive be their weapon?
.
And, of course: At what point do we STOP giving people free stuff to make it easier?
.
Ain't game balance a pain?
:)
I just said that we were not alone in that problem. And that it is a problem of long-standing, and quite familiar in the genre/trope. Spell-casters suck in combat, and stay back. Weapon-swingers are good in combat--incluing "early on in the game"--and are up front. This is in fact the entire genesis of the 'Tank' build archetype in, well... everything, nowadays. You Get A Tank. He sits up front getting beat on. You put your buffs on him--from everyone--and he survives, and meanwhile your damage-producers are potting away at range. They need that protection because--see point #1--they suck in combat. Initially.
Just because it's a stereotype, doesn't make it untrue. The reason big world-changing cosmic power is permitted later on, is because you're a weenie at the start. There isn't anything new here, and it's not much of a surprise to anyone entering games of this type. You do not typically start as Conan, King of Aquilonia (unless you just bought the newest WoW expansion, with auto-level to 90th according to their commercials); you start as the half-naked savage with a sword and a loincloth.
.
My only problem with your 'additional mana' idea is that I am an experienced player, so I've dealt with it before, so I don't really see it as a problem. And I played D&D, including as a spellcaster, and was used to the whole "you only get to cast like, once" and then you beat things to death with the stick in your hands. We've already made low-level spell-casting easier four times here (first change was to give mana at lower stat values; second was to start with an initial pool based on your mana stat and then the third at the same time was to give +3 mana/level if you trained in it, as well as the fourth of adding the possibility of as much as +2/level after that if you chose).
But that is just my perception, because I'm used to dealing with it. So no, I do not see it as a real problem... for my characters. <shrug>
A true newbie to the game? Sure, it may be a lot harder for them. I can see value in opening up more mana for them.
.
On the other hand--and speaking as the player of several spell-casting characters--I don't really see a need for higher level characters, who by now know what they're doing, to reap the benefit of a fat pool of additional free mana if we change the way things work.
I'd be much more inclined to just give a brand new character (maybe spellcasters & semis only?) an Enhancive item for +40 mana (or whatever number we come up with; semis only half as much?) that they get bright red warning messages if they try to throw away, and it works ONLY while the character is lower than 11th level.
(i.e. You get +40 mana for free, no training necessary, for the first ten levels.)
Then the item breaks.
EVERY time you make a level, you get messaged about it going to break.
EVERY time you level, you get messaged about how important it is for your profession to train in Harness Power if you want to use mana.
.
But I can see the start of a slippery slope problem, too, though.
Do we give the weapon-swingers a free +20 weapon? How do we set it up that they can hold it [normally 10th level for +20 items]? It should be easier for them, too, shouldn't it? Why do they/spell-casters get this cool thing and we/Tanks don't? If we only give semis half as much mana, do we give them only a +10 weapon instead? Have the mana Enhancive be their weapon?
.
And, of course: At what point do we STOP giving people free stuff to make it easier?
.
Ain't game balance a pain?
:)
THROGG
Re: New Player Comments
11/27/2014 11:02 PM CST
>>-I don't really see a need for higher level characters, who by now know what they're doing, to reap the benefit of a fat pool of additional free mana if we change the way things work.<<
Expanding the initial mana pool by 20 or 25 would benefit lower level casters the most; it's a proportionate thing. At level 1-2, it's a lot of mana. At cap, with a mana pool that even now is anywhere from 300-420+, the extra mana would have minimal impact. What, maybe one extra cast of focused implosion before having to spirit wrack or use symbol of mana? The new system would need some tweaking, perhaps, to make sure they didn't get more than this but it sounds feasible.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Expanding the initial mana pool by 20 or 25 would benefit lower level casters the most; it's a proportionate thing. At level 1-2, it's a lot of mana. At cap, with a mana pool that even now is anywhere from 300-420+, the extra mana would have minimal impact. What, maybe one extra cast of focused implosion before having to spirit wrack or use symbol of mana? The new system would need some tweaking, perhaps, to make sure they didn't get more than this but it sounds feasible.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 04:40 AM CST
If someone sets their stats to "easy" difficulty level for melee, and "impossible" difficulty level for magic, they are going to have trouble playing magically. If the people they turn to for advice cripple their mana supply they are going to be short on mana. If they go for help to someone who is prepared to give them spells and support for swinging but not for playing as a pure, they are going to find it a lot easier to play as a swinger.
...
And that gives me another idea.
If the sprite quest hasn't been updated to give pures some sort of mana potion rather than a strength one, it should be and if pures don't get a wand they can use to complete it at level 0, they should. Last time I did the sprite quest as a pure I got to level 2 with the other lowbie bonus exp first, so that I could complete it magically, but a new player isn't going to know how to manipulate the system that way.
...
And that gives me another idea.
If the sprite quest hasn't been updated to give pures some sort of mana potion rather than a strength one, it should be and if pures don't get a wand they can use to complete it at level 0, they should. Last time I did the sprite quest as a pure I got to level 2 with the other lowbie bonus exp first, so that I could complete it magically, but a new player isn't going to know how to manipulate the system that way.
RORN
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 07:11 AM CST
>Do we give the weapon-swingers a free +20 weapon? How do we set it up that they can hold it [normally 10th level for +20 >items]? It should be easier for them, too, shouldn't it? Why do they/spell-casters get this cool thing and we/Tanks don't? If we only >give semis half as much mana, do we give them only a +10 weapon instead? Have the mana Enhancive be their weapon?
>Krakii
The biggest problem with mana for a pure is that it limits how long they can attack. A pure Empath with 4 mana at the start can cast Harm 4 times, takes about what, 15 seconds? Then they have to wait for their mana to regen at 15% every two minutes where their hunting to 25% every two minutes if they go to a node (provided they even know what a node is and where to find one). They then wait 8 to 14 minutes for their mana pool to refill.
Weapon users can go out and swing their weapon non stop the whole 15 minutes, a pure is done hunting in 15 seconds and then has to yawn and wait for 14 minutes off node to do another 15 seconds of hunting once his mana comes back.
We need it to be changed so a pure can hunt the full 15 minutes the way a weapon user can. Leaving a new player who wants to play a spellcaster only able to cast for 15 seconds every 15 minutes and having to yawn waiting the rest of the 15 minutes is a near sure showstopper, that new player pure is going to another game that doesn't force 14 minutes of being unable to hunt on him.
Tanivar Somakre
Healing, you want it, you shall have it.
>Krakii
The biggest problem with mana for a pure is that it limits how long they can attack. A pure Empath with 4 mana at the start can cast Harm 4 times, takes about what, 15 seconds? Then they have to wait for their mana to regen at 15% every two minutes where their hunting to 25% every two minutes if they go to a node (provided they even know what a node is and where to find one). They then wait 8 to 14 minutes for their mana pool to refill.
Weapon users can go out and swing their weapon non stop the whole 15 minutes, a pure is done hunting in 15 seconds and then has to yawn and wait for 14 minutes off node to do another 15 seconds of hunting once his mana comes back.
We need it to be changed so a pure can hunt the full 15 minutes the way a weapon user can. Leaving a new player who wants to play a spellcaster only able to cast for 15 seconds every 15 minutes and having to yawn waiting the rest of the 15 minutes is a near sure showstopper, that new player pure is going to another game that doesn't force 14 minutes of being unable to hunt on him.
Tanivar Somakre
Healing, you want it, you shall have it.
SHAYD11
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 01:26 PM CST
>If someone sets their stats to "easy" difficulty level for melee, and "impossible" difficulty level for magic, they are going to have trouble playing magically. If the people they turn to for advice cripple their mana supply they are going to be short on mana. If they go for help to someone who is prepared to give them spells and support for swinging but not for playing as a pure, they are going to find it a lot easier to play as a swinger.
This, so much this. I was trying to find a polite way to say this before I got hit with a turkey coma and forgot.
>if pures don't get a wand they can use to complete it at level 0
Im pretty sure wizards at least are genned with an iron wound in one of their containers.
>What Tanivar Somakre said
Different professions should have different pros and cons, if you just make them all the same... If they have no issues with mana can we make them need blesses to cast at undead? How about different casting rts for higher df spells like melee swingers get. A claidh takes a lot longer to swing than a dagger after all. I get young pures have issues with mana but its their difficult stage. When I first started playing I was told to try out warriors or rogues as they were easier to get used to playing just starting out.
This, so much this. I was trying to find a polite way to say this before I got hit with a turkey coma and forgot.
>if pures don't get a wand they can use to complete it at level 0
Im pretty sure wizards at least are genned with an iron wound in one of their containers.
>What Tanivar Somakre said
Different professions should have different pros and cons, if you just make them all the same... If they have no issues with mana can we make them need blesses to cast at undead? How about different casting rts for higher df spells like melee swingers get. A claidh takes a lot longer to swing than a dagger after all. I get young pures have issues with mana but its their difficult stage. When I first started playing I was told to try out warriors or rogues as they were easier to get used to playing just starting out.
COSTELLOK
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 02:17 PM CST
To be fair, this isn't nearly as bad for a pure that actually trains for spellcasting instead of swinging. A level 1 pure (the sprite quest gets you through level 0) who doubles in harness power and starts with a high number in their mana stat(s) can easily have close to 15-20 mana at that point.
Fyonn's player
Fyonn's player
DOUG
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 02:32 PM CST
There were changes made quite some time back that gave starting pures more mana. But maybe the (avg?) 20 points isn't enough. While I don't think anyone above 40 trainings needs more mana, the ideas of scaling mana from say. . 50? at the start and then tapering throughout the first 40 levels isn't a bad idea.
Of course, we have some habits that harm us more than help, too. A lot of young spell casters I meet will insist on carrying 4 hours of spells, even if they're self-spelling. That's a lot of mana waiting to regen. Most hunts across the board only last 15 minutes or so - and we should be encouraging young pures to only self-spell for a cast, or maybe two, then hunt and refresh while resting.
Doug
Of course, we have some habits that harm us more than help, too. A lot of young spell casters I meet will insist on carrying 4 hours of spells, even if they're self-spelling. That's a lot of mana waiting to regen. Most hunts across the board only last 15 minutes or so - and we should be encouraging young pures to only self-spell for a cast, or maybe two, then hunt and refresh while resting.
Doug
JARHEAD
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 02:55 PM CST
In my opinion, Gemstone, especially when playing younger characters, is not meant to be solo'ed. It's should be a team effort. I still remember tree spirit parties fondly. No pure had enough mana to fill their heads there, but coupled with semi's and squares they'd get a cast or two in and let the swingers finish it. No one ever complained that they weren't learning enough and we all had a great time and I made a lot of friends that way.
I'd say before you go asking for changes to the game why not try it the old fashioned way. I understand we don't have the player base we once had but I know there are enough younger characters out there to make it worth the attempt. This is a role-playing game, after all. Make a few friends. I guarantee you that if you play GS for more than power-hunting then you'll have a great time.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
I'd say before you go asking for changes to the game why not try it the old fashioned way. I understand we don't have the player base we once had but I know there are enough younger characters out there to make it worth the attempt. This is a role-playing game, after all. Make a few friends. I guarantee you that if you play GS for more than power-hunting then you'll have a great time.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Player Comments
11/28/2014 08:32 PM CST
<Different professions should have different pros and cons, if you just make them all the same... If they have no issues with mana can we make them need blesses to cast at undead? How about <different casting rts for higher df spells like melee swingers get. A claidh takes a lot longer to swing than a dagger after all. I get young pures have issues with mana but its their <difficult stage. When I first started playing I was told to try out warriors or rogues as they were easier to get used to playing just starting out.
What GSIV forum discussion would be complete without the ubiquitous slippery slope strawman?
You're welcome to disagree that this is an issue worth fixing, but let's not pretend that asking for mana is going to make them the same as squares or that daggers will become claidhmores. It's a ridiculous argument. Balancing classes does not make them the same. A warrior does not become a wizard simply because they can both kill a target in the same amount of time. Giving mana to low level casters so that they can complete objectives without having to take the physical challenge does not turn them into warriors either. In fact, one could argue it does precisely the opposite - and that it absolutely should be this way, not the way it currently is!
~Taverkin
What GSIV forum discussion would be complete without the ubiquitous slippery slope strawman?
You're welcome to disagree that this is an issue worth fixing, but let's not pretend that asking for mana is going to make them the same as squares or that daggers will become claidhmores. It's a ridiculous argument. Balancing classes does not make them the same. A warrior does not become a wizard simply because they can both kill a target in the same amount of time. Giving mana to low level casters so that they can complete objectives without having to take the physical challenge does not turn them into warriors either. In fact, one could argue it does precisely the opposite - and that it absolutely should be this way, not the way it currently is!
~Taverkin
