Well, my subject says it all, mostly.
On a side note, this title offends me: "PC Wizard FE Discussion". A "PC" is a "Personal Computer." I understand some people have distinguished "(an x86) PC (running a Microsoft OS)" from a computer "(with a Motorola core and running) Mac OS". Those days are dead and done, though. There are alternatives to Intel processors (like AMD), but the architecture no longer tells you anything (I don't see anyone mentioning Dreamcasts or Sun Microsystems, for instance). (Although, I still dispute that such misnomers, which meant to label architecture, really said something meaningful before, and they have always made absurd assumptions.)
Well, you can get a flavor for the kinds of posts or attitudes you'd find if the folder I am requesting is created. This may still encapsulate some players, however, and to deny a folder may be a really bad move as the game moves forward. The proper place to voice opinions is better than shutting people up.
Still, now that F2P is on the docket, I feel this is a folder that is absolutely necessary. I think it's fair to put "Third Party" or something in the front of it. I would personally like to see the title as:
Free Software GNU/Linux FEs
(Or similar.)
I think, just because it isn't officially supported, doesn't mean there shouldn't be a Q&A folder. I promise to check it and help people out, with as minimal rants about Simu not supporting the software as possible! (In fact, if Simu did release an FE for GNU/Linux, I feel it needs to be free and open source software...which is already unlikely given the company's history so...when I make the requests usually I'm just trolling anyway. Sorry about that. This request is serious, and finally made because of F2P.)
(Sorry I put so many things in brackets.)
Keep in mind, I have been playing since the late 90s. I got my wife playing. Both of us use (different breeds) of GNU/Linux. And while I'm sure Tillmen doesn't need help uh, he wrote Lich and last I heard he uses Xubuntu.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DAID
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/09/2015 02:22 PM CDT
Also, it really was a slip when I titled it "Softwar"
Maybe an even better option is:
Free Software & GNU/Linux FEs
After all, all of them run on systems that don't run GNU/Linux. Mac OS. Windows. BSD variants. Actually, these FEs are more supported than the official ones from a stance of OS.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
Maybe an even better option is:
Free Software & GNU/Linux FEs
After all, all of them run on systems that don't run GNU/Linux. Mac OS. Windows. BSD variants. Actually, these FEs are more supported than the official ones from a stance of OS.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
GS4-SLEKEN
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/09/2015 06:01 PM CDT
Looks like we have an unsupported third party software folder already.
SGM Sleken
SGM Sleken
DOUG
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/09/2015 06:37 PM CDT
And yet, it may be worthwhile (and time) to adjust the flow of this topic. Perhaps a restructure like:
1) Announcements
2) General Computer / System Questions
3) Connecting to the Game
4) Systems using Microsoft OS
- 4a) General Microsoft OS Questions
- 4b) Wizard Front End
- 4c) Stormfront Front End
- 4d) Simutronics Game Entry (SGE)
- 4e) Scripting for Wizard and Stormfront
5) Systems using Apple OS X
- 5a) General Apple OS X Questions
- 5b) Avalon Front End
- 5c) Scripting for Avalon
6) Systems using other OS
- 6a) General Linux OS Questions
- 6b) Mobile OS Questions
7) Website and Web Based Gaming (Java / eScape)
8) Third Party Clients and Scripting Tools
- 8a) Lich Scripting Engine on Microsoft OS
- 8b) Lich Scripting Engine on Apple OS X
- 8c) Lich Scripting Engine on other OS
- 8d) zMud / cMud and Other Generic Clients
9) Forums Discussions
As an example.
Doug
1) Announcements
2) General Computer / System Questions
3) Connecting to the Game
4) Systems using Microsoft OS
- 4a) General Microsoft OS Questions
- 4b) Wizard Front End
- 4c) Stormfront Front End
- 4d) Simutronics Game Entry (SGE)
- 4e) Scripting for Wizard and Stormfront
5) Systems using Apple OS X
- 5a) General Apple OS X Questions
- 5b) Avalon Front End
- 5c) Scripting for Avalon
6) Systems using other OS
- 6a) General Linux OS Questions
- 6b) Mobile OS Questions
7) Website and Web Based Gaming (Java / eScape)
8) Third Party Clients and Scripting Tools
- 8a) Lich Scripting Engine on Microsoft OS
- 8b) Lich Scripting Engine on Apple OS X
- 8c) Lich Scripting Engine on other OS
- 8d) zMud / cMud and Other Generic Clients
9) Forums Discussions
As an example.
Doug
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 04:46 AM CDT
>Looks like we have an unsupported third party software folder already.
Lumping an entire OS as "unsupported third party software" sounds pretty steep to me.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
Lumping an entire OS as "unsupported third party software" sounds pretty steep to me.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
GS4-SLEKEN
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 07:52 AM CDT
Isn't that what it is, though? ;)
SGM Sleken
SGM Sleken
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 10:28 AM CDT
>Isn't that what it is, though? ;)
Hahaha, yes I suppose so!
Minus my philsophical ramblings in the OP, my main point is a simple one, however. A new player to GS will not see any options besides playing on Mac OS X and Windows on the main website. Even coming to the forums, it's not very obvious where they would ask for help if their OS is not one of those types. They might give up and not try playing!
When I came back some years ago, it took quite a bit of google-fu to dig up the answer, and I attempted several options to connect and play before finding one that worked. Now I use a different version.
Even slightly lowering this barrier to a similar prospective player wouldn't be a bad thing, I don't think.
I like Doug's list which shows things in some detail. The name of a folder can mean the difference of knowing it is an appropriate question to ask vs. deciding not to bother trying.
I'm thinking more, and maybe I'll make a gswiki guide on the matter. This could be more suitable anyway, with potentially higher visibility.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
Hahaha, yes I suppose so!
Minus my philsophical ramblings in the OP, my main point is a simple one, however. A new player to GS will not see any options besides playing on Mac OS X and Windows on the main website. Even coming to the forums, it's not very obvious where they would ask for help if their OS is not one of those types. They might give up and not try playing!
When I came back some years ago, it took quite a bit of google-fu to dig up the answer, and I attempted several options to connect and play before finding one that worked. Now I use a different version.
Even slightly lowering this barrier to a similar prospective player wouldn't be a bad thing, I don't think.
I like Doug's list which shows things in some detail. The name of a folder can mean the difference of knowing it is an appropriate question to ask vs. deciding not to bother trying.
I'm thinking more, and maybe I'll make a gswiki guide on the matter. This could be more suitable anyway, with potentially higher visibility.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 10:36 AM CDT
Though ah...I may need to re-name the shell script I wrote to launch profanity.
It's definitely a four-letter profane word. ^_^
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
It's definitely a four-letter profane word. ^_^
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
GS4-IXIX
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 11:22 AM CDT
I would actually lean the other way and suggest (merely my opinion) that we might want to condense the topics, and just have a general 'Frontends' topic or perhaps 'Official Frontends' and 'Unofficial Frontends' topics. I like sorting things as much as the next undead horror but I think a general topic can be more inviting to people who aren't sure where their question needs to go, and might not ask for help if they can't figure it out.
Ixix
Ixix
DOUG
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 11:45 AM CDT
Not opposed at all, Ixix. But the 'flatter' concept works so much better in message bases that can have tags assigned, and then - you know. . . searched. I'm not 'disappointed' in our current forums, but I'm perhaps too old-school in that content needs to be differentiated - either up front through contextual separation, or on demand through tagging and searching.
I'm even old-school enough that those are the only two real methods that come to mind! I blush. . .
Doug
I'm even old-school enough that those are the only two real methods that come to mind! I blush. . .
Doug
GS4-IXIX
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 12:26 PM CDT
The wiki can help us out with that a lot too I think - it's a better spot for static how-to and reference type information (again, in my opinion).
Ixix
Ixix
DOUG
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 12:47 PM CDT
I like your opinion! Mostly. ;)
The wiki can certainly help, although I would have said its real strength is not in 'static' information. It is ideal, however, for how-to in this space.
The problem is that most especially new customers will appreciate a higher touch. In this context (message base) higher touch can include linked reference material, but not only linked reference material. That's too impersonal, and can smack of 'read the manual' type approach to responses. Add to that most new customers (presuming F2P accounts) won't be allowed to 'edit' or 'post' to the wiki -- I hope!
Still, not opposed to the general statement and like the benefits of that tool.
Doug
The wiki can certainly help, although I would have said its real strength is not in 'static' information. It is ideal, however, for how-to in this space.
The problem is that most especially new customers will appreciate a higher touch. In this context (message base) higher touch can include linked reference material, but not only linked reference material. That's too impersonal, and can smack of 'read the manual' type approach to responses. Add to that most new customers (presuming F2P accounts) won't be allowed to 'edit' or 'post' to the wiki -- I hope!
Still, not opposed to the general statement and like the benefits of that tool.
Doug
GS4-IXIX
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 01:13 PM CDT
I should clarify that when I said 'static' I meant in terms of 'we'll always want a how to install Avalon page', as opposed to 'the how to install Avalon page will always be the same.'
And I definitely agree with your other point, I know that I always appreciate a personal answer and then a 'for more info, you can check out this page' response more than just a link.
Ixix
And I definitely agree with your other point, I know that I always appreciate a personal answer and then a 'for more info, you can check out this page' response more than just a link.
Ixix
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/10/2015 04:36 PM CDT
I don't disagree at all, Ixix.
My only reservation, which spawned this post, is that such OSes (and their respective FE options) are not on the main page. A welcome banner is never bad. But I can see that Doug's nicely comprehensive list might be excessive (if not up my alley). Indeed, I had Mac OS X some years ago and ditched Avalon as unplayable, and my wife, once she joined (also at that time on Mac OS X) followed suit in short order. The FEs for GNU/Linux are usually also quite friendly on Mac OS X, if not Windows as well. (And um...no offense, usually better choices than Avalon.)
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
My only reservation, which spawned this post, is that such OSes (and their respective FE options) are not on the main page. A welcome banner is never bad. But I can see that Doug's nicely comprehensive list might be excessive (if not up my alley). Indeed, I had Mac OS X some years ago and ditched Avalon as unplayable, and my wife, once she joined (also at that time on Mac OS X) followed suit in short order. The FEs for GNU/Linux are usually also quite friendly on Mac OS X, if not Windows as well. (And um...no offense, usually better choices than Avalon.)
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/18/2015 03:32 PM CDT
While I still stand behind my initial concept, I would like to recant my previous statements which said GemStone could not be played under GNU/Linux natively with official software.
I found that modern Chromium can use eScape (or a similar program which is a web front end). This was certainly not true several years ago when I came back. I couldn't say whether is was from free software web browsers becoming more sophisticated, my lack of attempts to use eScape in general, or developments by Simutronics. In any case, I am very pleased to notice that I am now wrong for having said the game cannot be played under many operating systems.
Still, clearly this is not the preferred OS for most players, which leads to my OP. (Though I think when I'm next feeling less lazy, writing the gswiki article on the topic is the best option.)
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
I found that modern Chromium can use eScape (or a similar program which is a web front end). This was certainly not true several years ago when I came back. I couldn't say whether is was from free software web browsers becoming more sophisticated, my lack of attempts to use eScape in general, or developments by Simutronics. In any case, I am very pleased to notice that I am now wrong for having said the game cannot be played under many operating systems.
Still, clearly this is not the preferred OS for most players, which leads to my OP. (Though I think when I'm next feeling less lazy, writing the gswiki article on the topic is the best option.)
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/18/2015 03:35 PM CDT
>Still, clearly this is not the preferred OS for most players, which leads to my OP. (Though I think when I'm next feeling less lazy, writing the gswiki article on the topic is the best option.)
I meant "preferred FE for most players" but...I suppose it amounts to the same thing?
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
I meant "preferred FE for most players" but...I suppose it amounts to the same thing?
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DOUG
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/20/2015 11:28 AM CDT
Does natively include WINE?
No dog in the hunt, just curious on the perspective.
Doug
No dog in the hunt, just curious on the perspective.
Doug
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/24/2015 08:33 AM CDT
>Does natively include WINE?
To me, no. Some others might say yes. Another important point here is that I don't believe StormFront runs under wine (or, it did not when I tried it some years ago...and a majority of wine bugs need to be resolved on a program-by-program basis, which makes me think whatever reason SF didn't work is probably still there). The Wizard FE does work under wine, but I find wine to be slow and janky. In fact, one of my personal rules is to use wine as little as possible. At present I have exactly 1 program I run under wine.
Also, is my memory that bad, or has there been a little changes in some of the folder names recently? COOL!
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
To me, no. Some others might say yes. Another important point here is that I don't believe StormFront runs under wine (or, it did not when I tried it some years ago...and a majority of wine bugs need to be resolved on a program-by-program basis, which makes me think whatever reason SF didn't work is probably still there). The Wizard FE does work under wine, but I find wine to be slow and janky. In fact, one of my personal rules is to use wine as little as possible. At present I have exactly 1 program I run under wine.
Also, is my memory that bad, or has there been a little changes in some of the folder names recently? COOL!
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DOUG
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/24/2015 08:39 AM CDT
Wizard runs great under WINE - my go-to game rig is OS X, XQuartz, WINE and Wizard FE, for a great many reasons. SF, when I last tested it, was slow and janky. That has to do with the way it was designed. I'd given some thought to seeing if I could get it to work, especially for the item menu link capabilities. But truthfully, Wizard is better, and extending link capabilities in Wizard + Lich is probably fairly trivial by comparison.
Doug
Doug
GS4-AULIS
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/24/2015 08:40 AM CDT
<<Also, is my memory that bad, or has there been a little changes in some of the folder names recently? COOL!
Ayup. There was a change in folder names recently. I recently added a new WIKI topic under this category. And after looking back I felt the actual name of the main category read more like they were super nested with all the / between. Hence the main category change to just "Software & Hardware Help" instead of "Front Ends/WIKI/Forums/etc."
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
Ayup. There was a change in folder names recently. I recently added a new WIKI topic under this category. And after looking back I felt the actual name of the main category read more like they were super nested with all the / between. Hence the main category change to just "Software & Hardware Help" instead of "Front Ends/WIKI/Forums/etc."
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/24/2015 08:51 AM CDT
In fact, to elaborate on my personal perspective, I rarely run any non-free software directly on my own computer. Of course, if I'm using the internet, who is to say what software I am using (free or otherwise). Even a router my signals get sent through may have a proprietary driver.
I would ideally like to run zero non-free software, but I'm not quite there.
Lately I don't have dropbox installed. It was on my machine, but I reinstalled my OS last April and honestly don't find dropbox that useful (I have direct access to a web server so...why bother?). In any case, when I did have it installed, I used it this way: http://gentoo-en.vfose.ru/wiki/Jail_Dropbox
(In fact, I'm sure you can see a lengthy post in the Discussion page where I posted a script to do it.)
I think at present I have:
1) LISE++, which is a program for physics I use. It may or may not be free software, but anyway it's quite useful. I run that under wine (the one I alluded to above). Some of the features I use most commonly I keep meaning to patch together some shell scripts I wrote to do for me. That is as much because it's free software as because the most common reason I use this intense clunky program is for a really simple thing called a Brho calculation. There's no reason to use a giant program for that. But, even if I had that program, I would likely keep it installed.
2) Adobe flash. I have tried lightspark and gnash, but I had a lot of problems with that. I was reluctant to try them again on this install because my last install could hardly use flash at all, and although I don't watch youtube etc that much, it's a nice enough feature that I like it. I'm hoping this will be resolved by full adoption of HTML 5 and the <video> tag and Flash will burn in the pits of hell.
3) Skype. I don't use it much anymore since my wife moved to Japan, but sometimes I need to call my US bank or whatever, and it's much cheaper than if I used my cellphone etc (which I'm sure is also a proprietary OS...it's an old flip phone). There are a number of free software alternatives, but even my wife was too lazy to install them...haha.
I think that's it at present. I can be fairly sure because I have to manually input the licenses I accept which aren't GPL, BSD, Apache, or similar kinds, and it says:
ACCEPT_LICENSE="skype-eula dlj-1.1 sun-bcla-java-vm IBM-J1.4 Oracle-BCLA-JavaSE AdobeFlash-10.3 AdobeFlash-11.x"
I don't actually think I have a lot of that installed any more (just checked...no), since my make.conf file just gets carried around with me all the time and I'm lazy to delete stuff. I think I'm using IcedTea now so I don't need the Oracale JDK. I don't even know why sun java or old flash is even in there...laziness.
Of course some things you'd ask why even bother at all, like why do you need JDK? This present install isn't as awesome as some, with only 3 gccs and 3 ruby versions. It used to be I carried around about 10+ gcc versions at any given time. (Need at least two: modern one, and hardened gcc-3.)
As an example, I refuse to use Adobe Acrobat because it is easily avoidable non-free software. Presently I use evince, but I really really loved xpdf, but there are some weird issues with that, and I'm not sure it will ever be able to compile again. I had also used epdfreader (now defunct) kpdf (now defunct) and some others. Evince isn't as lightweight as I'd like, but it's decent.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
I would ideally like to run zero non-free software, but I'm not quite there.
Lately I don't have dropbox installed. It was on my machine, but I reinstalled my OS last April and honestly don't find dropbox that useful (I have direct access to a web server so...why bother?). In any case, when I did have it installed, I used it this way: http://gentoo-en.vfose.ru/wiki/Jail_Dropbox
(In fact, I'm sure you can see a lengthy post in the Discussion page where I posted a script to do it.)
I think at present I have:
1) LISE++, which is a program for physics I use. It may or may not be free software, but anyway it's quite useful. I run that under wine (the one I alluded to above). Some of the features I use most commonly I keep meaning to patch together some shell scripts I wrote to do for me. That is as much because it's free software as because the most common reason I use this intense clunky program is for a really simple thing called a Brho calculation. There's no reason to use a giant program for that. But, even if I had that program, I would likely keep it installed.
2) Adobe flash. I have tried lightspark and gnash, but I had a lot of problems with that. I was reluctant to try them again on this install because my last install could hardly use flash at all, and although I don't watch youtube etc that much, it's a nice enough feature that I like it. I'm hoping this will be resolved by full adoption of HTML 5 and the <video> tag and Flash will burn in the pits of hell.
3) Skype. I don't use it much anymore since my wife moved to Japan, but sometimes I need to call my US bank or whatever, and it's much cheaper than if I used my cellphone etc (which I'm sure is also a proprietary OS...it's an old flip phone). There are a number of free software alternatives, but even my wife was too lazy to install them...haha.
I think that's it at present. I can be fairly sure because I have to manually input the licenses I accept which aren't GPL, BSD, Apache, or similar kinds, and it says:
ACCEPT_LICENSE="skype-eula dlj-1.1 sun-bcla-java-vm IBM-J1.4 Oracle-BCLA-JavaSE AdobeFlash-10.3 AdobeFlash-11.x"
I don't actually think I have a lot of that installed any more (just checked...no), since my make.conf file just gets carried around with me all the time and I'm lazy to delete stuff. I think I'm using IcedTea now so I don't need the Oracale JDK. I don't even know why sun java or old flash is even in there...laziness.
Of course some things you'd ask why even bother at all, like why do you need JDK? This present install isn't as awesome as some, with only 3 gccs and 3 ruby versions. It used to be I carried around about 10+ gcc versions at any given time. (Need at least two: modern one, and hardened gcc-3.)
As an example, I refuse to use Adobe Acrobat because it is easily avoidable non-free software. Presently I use evince, but I really really loved xpdf, but there are some weird issues with that, and I'm not sure it will ever be able to compile again. I had also used epdfreader (now defunct) kpdf (now defunct) and some others. Evince isn't as lightweight as I'd like, but it's decent.
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/24/2015 08:51 AM CDT
>Ayup. There was a change in folder names recently. I recently added a new WIKI topic under this category. And after looking back I felt the actual name of the main category read more like they were super nested with all the / between. Hence the main category change to just "Software & Hardware Help" instead of "Front Ends/WIKI/Forums/etc."
Yes, I saw the WIKI folder as well. Thank you Aulis!
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
Yes, I saw the WIKI folder as well. Thank you Aulis!
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
DAID
Re: Folder for "Free Softwar GNU/Linux FEs"
03/24/2015 09:00 AM CDT
Oh, derp, and my nVidia driver. Grr.
I had tried an Ututo live DVD, since they run all free software, to see if I can use my video card. And it does. But I've been busy so I didn't figure out how they are doing it.
More over, lately my video card has been wonky. (It will freeze up, and I have to unplug AND pull the battery to wipe some latent data on the video card in order to get the driver working again.) So besides for ethical reasons, I have a practical reason I should look into that again.
Maybe I will do that soon! And maybe my uptimes will get back to 1 month+ again...
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
I had tried an Ututo live DVD, since they run all free software, to see if I can use my video card. And it does. But I've been busy so I didn't figure out how they are doing it.
More over, lately my video card has been wonky. (It will freeze up, and I have to unplug AND pull the battery to wipe some latent data on the video card in order to get the driver working again.) So besides for ethical reasons, I have a practical reason I should look into that again.
Maybe I will do that soon! And maybe my uptimes will get back to 1 month+ again...
"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes
