This is not going to be a change that most Empaths are happy with, but I am wanting to post this in advance to warn players and to provide insight regarding this decision. When Wither (1115) was released, it was intended to be the high level hunting spell for Empaths. Unfortunately, even after Bone Shatter's (1106) adjustments (to make it more usable for lower level players and less lethal on the high end), it is still too powerful due to the Mental Mana Control bonus. Even at 1x MMC training at level 100, the critical damage is only about even with Wither, but for a spell that cost 40% as much mana, that is unacceptable. We're planning a change to remove the MMC modifier from 1106, but to increase the base effectiveness to the same bonus that 24 ranks MMC previously provided. This change will make the spell better for low level Empaths and will position Wither to always deal higher critical damage than Bone Shatter on any warding margin.
GameMaster Estild
GS4-ESTILD
CASSA-NDRA
DOUG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/23/2013 06:54 PM CDT
Heh, probably an accurate view of the future, Estild.
Question -- MMC doesn't do anything to increase the %chance of insta-death, for either spell mentioned, I think.
Can you level-set our expectations of the anticipated insta-death crit impact? Will that remain unchanged, and all we're talking about is the damage done in the event instant death isn't the result? Or will that also be tweaked to match design goals?
Doug
Question -- MMC doesn't do anything to increase the %chance of insta-death, for either spell mentioned, I think.
Can you level-set our expectations of the anticipated insta-death crit impact? Will that remain unchanged, and all we're talking about is the damage done in the event instant death isn't the result? Or will that also be tweaked to match design goals?
Doug
GS4-ESTILD
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/23/2013 07:02 PM CDT
| Doug |
| Question -- MMC doesn't do anything to increase the %chance of insta-death, for either spell mentioned, I think. |
Assuming you're talking about the long descriptive message of the creature dying, that's affected by Mental Lore, Manipulation for both spells.
| Doug |
| Can you level-set our expectations of the anticipated insta-death crit impact? Will that remain unchanged, and all we're talking about is the damage done in the event instant death isn't the result? Or will that also be tweaked to match design goals? |
The intensity of the criticals of the spell is what is being reduced (since it will no longer have the MMC bonus). So instead of dealing a rank 7 wound on X warding margin, it might do a 6 (completely hypothetical numbers).
GameMaster Estild
DOUG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/23/2013 07:16 PM CDT
Thank you, E!
I think I understand, as follows:
- o - The intensity (which also leads to a damage result) is the target for the tweak.
- o - The likelihood of producing instant death (the 'long message') isn't targeted in this tweak.
That isn't to say it won't ever be -- just that right now, we'll see a reduction in the effect of a 'non-insta-death' result to bring the spell in line with design goals.
I'd have to say this doesn't disappoint me personally too greatly -- the variance of Bone Shatter's performance (from 1 to 5 casts needed, where 1 is usually the insta-death result) relative to Wither's performance (from 1 to 2 casts needed) seems to make this relatively painless to me.
Said differently, the first concern point likely will be 'efficient hunting', which is realized in terms of number of casts required and amount of mana expended. In my experience, these are nearly equal now, so you're just limiting the selection of spell, and the balance of the impact isn't critical to me personally. While I dislike not having equal choice, it's not a huge sacrifice compared to what you tee'd up for the expected design.
This is for a non-optimized, non-mutant empath, though. There may (will?!?!) be differing opinions, but I'm not alarmed.
Doug
I think I understand, as follows:
- o - The intensity (which also leads to a damage result) is the target for the tweak.
- o - The likelihood of producing instant death (the 'long message') isn't targeted in this tweak.
That isn't to say it won't ever be -- just that right now, we'll see a reduction in the effect of a 'non-insta-death' result to bring the spell in line with design goals.
I'd have to say this doesn't disappoint me personally too greatly -- the variance of Bone Shatter's performance (from 1 to 5 casts needed, where 1 is usually the insta-death result) relative to Wither's performance (from 1 to 2 casts needed) seems to make this relatively painless to me.
Said differently, the first concern point likely will be 'efficient hunting', which is realized in terms of number of casts required and amount of mana expended. In my experience, these are nearly equal now, so you're just limiting the selection of spell, and the balance of the impact isn't critical to me personally. While I dislike not having equal choice, it's not a huge sacrifice compared to what you tee'd up for the expected design.
This is for a non-optimized, non-mutant empath, though. There may (will?!?!) be differing opinions, but I'm not alarmed.
Doug
THROGG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/23/2013 09:18 PM CDT
>>This is for a non-optimized, non-mutant empath, though. There may (will?!?!) be differing opinions, but I'm not alarmed.<<
Be alarmed ... be very alarmed ... Bone Shatter? What's that?
1) cast Hold or Sympathy on critter
2) Focused M-strike with 7x flail
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
Be alarmed ... be very alarmed ... Bone Shatter? What's that?
1) cast Hold or Sympathy on critter
2) Focused M-strike with 7x flail
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
THROGG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/23/2013 09:24 PM CDT
BTW, if you are looking at revising empathic circle spells, how about trying to make empathic link actually useful?
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
OM1E5GA
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/23/2013 10:48 PM CDT
Mwuahahaha! A spell gets nerfed and it's not a sorcerer spell! Eat that empaths!
Wait a minute.... I play an empath too.... THIS IS TOTAL HOGWASH! How dare you nerf empaths! Why can't you go pick on bards or wizards or some other profession that no one of importance plays?!?!?
Heh, seriously though, this doesn't bother me or either of my empaths in the least since, even though they're pretty well trained for them, neither one uses Bone Shatter or Wither enough that I'm likely to ever notice the change and prolly won't be casting it much for the foreseeable future (come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER cast Wither.... I might have to give it a try and see what it does). Since I stopped hunting bone golems and large ogres everything I've hunted has had a weakness to fire (I'm not using 1106 on trolls when I have access to 111 and gold wands), had no bones, was lightly enough armored that I got better crits with any of my bolts, and/or had a TD that made warding spells impractical (I did cast 1106 on skeletal soldiers a few times, but they were usually dead from the splash damage done by the Fire Spirit I was casting at other critters in the area before I got to them).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Wait a minute.... I play an empath too.... THIS IS TOTAL HOGWASH! How dare you nerf empaths! Why can't you go pick on bards or wizards or some other profession that no one of importance plays?!?!?
Heh, seriously though, this doesn't bother me or either of my empaths in the least since, even though they're pretty well trained for them, neither one uses Bone Shatter or Wither enough that I'm likely to ever notice the change and prolly won't be casting it much for the foreseeable future (come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER cast Wither.... I might have to give it a try and see what it does). Since I stopped hunting bone golems and large ogres everything I've hunted has had a weakness to fire (I'm not using 1106 on trolls when I have access to 111 and gold wands), had no bones, was lightly enough armored that I got better crits with any of my bolts, and/or had a TD that made warding spells impractical (I did cast 1106 on skeletal soldiers a few times, but they were usually dead from the splash damage done by the Fire Spirit I was casting at other critters in the area before I got to them).
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
JEZBELLE
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 10:11 AM CDT
All I ask is that you do not make the new boneshatter like the new mana disruption. Plink plink plink is not how I want to play the game.
I use a bunch of different spells but boneshatter was the best for skinning. Trying to do skinning bounties is going to suck because firebolts will ruin your skins and wither, well I wither well enough to end up with dust instead of a dead griffin.
I will have a wait and see attitude because until I actually go use the spell I'm not sure what to expect. At post cap I have 80 MMC ranks. I guess I can knock that down to 24 ranks for share as I have 101 ranks of SMC.
Velvette
I use a bunch of different spells but boneshatter was the best for skinning. Trying to do skinning bounties is going to suck because firebolts will ruin your skins and wither, well I wither well enough to end up with dust instead of a dead griffin.
I will have a wait and see attitude because until I actually go use the spell I'm not sure what to expect. At post cap I have 80 MMC ranks. I guess I can knock that down to 24 ranks for share as I have 101 ranks of SMC.
Velvette
GS4-ESTILD
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 10:28 AM CDT
| Velvette |
| All I ask is that you do not make the new boneshatter like the new mana disruption. Plink plink plink is not how I want to play the game. |
Due to the thresholds we use, the difference between 24 and 80 ranks isn't significant. While there will technically be a difference, you may not even notice it.
GameMaster Estild
ETANNIDOMHNAILL
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 12:32 PM CDT
<<I use a bunch of different spells but boneshatter was the best for skinning.>>
Not true, actually. You want to use spells that do raw HP damage since, as you know, damaging the area you're taking the skin from will lower the skin quality. A combination of empathic assault, which does raw HP damage in its CS cycles, combined with the raw HP damage caused by 1101, is far more likely to leave skins untouched. It's even better when you're trained in telepathy lore since you'll get more CS attacks with empathic assault for even more HP damage.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
Not true, actually. You want to use spells that do raw HP damage since, as you know, damaging the area you're taking the skin from will lower the skin quality. A combination of empathic assault, which does raw HP damage in its CS cycles, combined with the raw HP damage caused by 1101, is far more likely to leave skins untouched. It's even better when you're trained in telepathy lore since you'll get more CS attacks with empathic assault for even more HP damage.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
JEZBELLE
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 02:33 PM CDT
Thanks Estild, that's nice to know. I've had to relearn how to hunt my sorceress, and that was after shelving her for oh 10 years.
PS Am I the only one that doesn't ever use 1101 for hunting? I think 1101 I think heal. I don't use a lot of spells, I guess I need to start branching out. I'll have to work on my CS, carrying a bow means not as many ranks of other things but totally worth it for the RP standpoint.
Velvette
PS Am I the only one that doesn't ever use 1101 for hunting? I think 1101 I think heal. I don't use a lot of spells, I guess I need to start branching out. I'll have to work on my CS, carrying a bow means not as many ranks of other things but totally worth it for the RP standpoint.
Velvette
JAKKAL
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 03:10 PM CDT
For a long time I thought Wither was underpowered. I guess I was wrong. Bone shatter was too powerful! (jk!)
Seriously though, I only have 30 ranks of MMC right now. Bone shatter works fine at that strength. Dropping that to 24 shouldn't make much difference.
What it does change is the balance between MMC and SMC. I believe MMC now only assists Empathic assault's warding damage cycles now. Where extra ranks of SMC will reduce the time between pulses for both Trolls blood and Regeneration. If you don't use Empathic Assault much, it may be time to start switching MMC for SMC.
>>Am I the only one that doesn't ever use 1101 for hunting? I think 1101 I think heal. I don't use a lot of spells, I guess I need to start branching out. I'll have to work on my CS, carrying a bow means not as many ranks of other things but totally worth it for the RP standpoint.
I doubt there are many past level 20 that seriously use 1101 for hunting. It just takes too much time to kill anything that way. Personally I think you should use that bow for more than just RP flavor. I get great Triton spines because I shoot them in the eye.
---Mirrami, Crossbow empath
Seriously though, I only have 30 ranks of MMC right now. Bone shatter works fine at that strength. Dropping that to 24 shouldn't make much difference.
What it does change is the balance between MMC and SMC. I believe MMC now only assists Empathic assault's warding damage cycles now. Where extra ranks of SMC will reduce the time between pulses for both Trolls blood and Regeneration. If you don't use Empathic Assault much, it may be time to start switching MMC for SMC.
>>Am I the only one that doesn't ever use 1101 for hunting? I think 1101 I think heal. I don't use a lot of spells, I guess I need to start branching out. I'll have to work on my CS, carrying a bow means not as many ranks of other things but totally worth it for the RP standpoint.
I doubt there are many past level 20 that seriously use 1101 for hunting. It just takes too much time to kill anything that way. Personally I think you should use that bow for more than just RP flavor. I get great Triton spines because I shoot them in the eye.
---Mirrami, Crossbow empath
NISHIMA
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 03:35 PM CDT
Bone Shatter isn't overpowered, Wither is underpowered.
There are already monsters that are very difficult to crit, and require straight hp damage to kill. Not fun if it has 600 or more hp! I don't want to have to spend 100 mana to kill one like-level critter.
Also, when are you going to fix mana pool from WIS stat? As CON grows, and HP and stamina grows with it. Why not mana pool with wisdom? This nerf still baffles (and irritates) me to this day.
...I vowed to avoid the boards this time around. Alas.
There are already monsters that are very difficult to crit, and require straight hp damage to kill. Not fun if it has 600 or more hp! I don't want to have to spend 100 mana to kill one like-level critter.
Also, when are you going to fix mana pool from WIS stat? As CON grows, and HP and stamina grows with it. Why not mana pool with wisdom? This nerf still baffles (and irritates) me to this day.
...I vowed to avoid the boards this time around. Alas.
NISHIMA
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/24/2013 05:51 PM CDT
Some math.
> Even at 1x MMC training at level 100, the critical damage is only about even with Wither, but for a spell that cost 40% as much mana, that is unacceptable.
Ok. Say you nerf bone shatter 25%. That would make it 75% as effective as Wither. To keep mana vs effectiveness ratio, Wither would have to be improved by 87.5%.
1 - (.75 / (6/15))= .875
Even if it were nerfed into the ground by 50% (which is absurd) there should be a 25% buff to Wither.
1- (.5 / (6/15)) = .25
What you are proposing is to nerf it by 60%. Amazing.
> Even at 1x MMC training at level 100, the critical damage is only about even with Wither, but for a spell that cost 40% as much mana, that is unacceptable.
Ok. Say you nerf bone shatter 25%. That would make it 75% as effective as Wither. To keep mana vs effectiveness ratio, Wither would have to be improved by 87.5%.
1 - (.75 / (6/15))= .875
Even if it were nerfed into the ground by 50% (which is absurd) there should be a 25% buff to Wither.
1- (.5 / (6/15)) = .25
What you are proposing is to nerf it by 60%. Amazing.
AUDIOSERF
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/25/2013 01:50 PM CDT
The overall concept of buffing Wither by nerfing Boneshatter is pretty hilarious.
RISHIB1
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/25/2013 06:52 PM CDT
Argh. Well, that explains why I found 1106 slightly more efficient to use at cap.
Anyway, I primarily bolt (1110/111), so not much change. (1110 + 1101 = skinning goodness)
Rishi
- Player of Kembal
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
Anyway, I primarily bolt (1110/111), so not much change. (1110 + 1101 = skinning goodness)
Rishi
- Player of Kembal
Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."
DOUG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
09/25/2013 10:03 PM CDT
>>The overall concept of buffing Wither by nerfing Boneshatter is pretty hilarious.
Yeah, I was pretty amused that this is the preferred reaction of a select few, too.
Doug
Yeah, I was pretty amused that this is the preferred reaction of a select few, too.
Doug
ZENNSUNNI
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
11/20/2013 10:56 AM CST
>Bone Shatter isn't overpowered, Wither is underpowered.
Both spells are grotesquely overpowered. I reflect on this each and every time I play my empath. Boggled by this assertion, I am.
Player of Kilshaar
Both spells are grotesquely overpowered. I reflect on this each and every time I play my empath. Boggled by this assertion, I am.
Player of Kilshaar
PRAT2
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
11/20/2013 11:41 AM CST
I disagree on Wither. It's supposed to be an Empath's primary hunting spell, it's not bad, but it isn't over powered. When you compare it to so many other spells from other classes in the same level range, it's just about right. If anything I'd love to see it tweaked to make it more powerful, although, if it were, I could see it being moved into a higher level spell slot to increase the mana cost a bit. Overall, I'm pretty happy with both Bone Shatter and Wither, and wouldn't want to see 1106 nerfed any more than it already has been.
ZENNSUNNI
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
11/21/2013 12:11 PM CST
>When you compare it to so many other spells from other classes in the same level range, it's just about right.
I've played all three classes extensively, and I'd take wither over 719 or 317 any day of the week.
Player of Kilshaar
I've played all three classes extensively, and I'd take wither over 719 or 317 any day of the week.
Player of Kilshaar
THROGG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
11/21/2013 04:42 PM CST
>>I've played all three classes extensively, and I'd take wither over 719 or 317 any day of the week.<<
DC was a killer spell years back; consequently, it was seriously nerfed. In fact, sorcery itself was nerfed overall; 702 also used to be devastating. Training in elemental lores helps DC a bit but most sorcerers prefer to concentrate on sorcerous lores (necro and demon). 317 is, IMO, about as viscious as wither, with decent religion lore. Unfortunately, I don't have anything around I can do a decent testing on, as my empath and cleric are both vacationing in the Landing. Maybe some invasion critter will come by and volunteer for a test subject.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
DC was a killer spell years back; consequently, it was seriously nerfed. In fact, sorcery itself was nerfed overall; 702 also used to be devastating. Training in elemental lores helps DC a bit but most sorcerers prefer to concentrate on sorcerous lores (necro and demon). 317 is, IMO, about as viscious as wither, with decent religion lore. Unfortunately, I don't have anything around I can do a decent testing on, as my empath and cleric are both vacationing in the Landing. Maybe some invasion critter will come by and volunteer for a test subject.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
THROGG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
11/21/2013 05:17 PM CST
Aaaarg! I can't do a decent comparison of 1115 and 317 right now. My empath HAD 40 ranks of manipulation lore, but she had a hissy fit when 1106 was nerfed, and fixskilled them away. My cleric, on the other hand, still has 40 ranks of religion lore. Also, there is a CS difference due to the empath's insistence on not being a pure caster; silly girl!
OK, if I pretend that the Empath still has 40 ranks manipulation, and allowing for the CS difference, I estimate that with similar training paths, the two spells would probably give similar results. Hardly scientific method, however.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
OK, if I pretend that the Empath still has 40 ranks manipulation, and allowing for the CS difference, I estimate that with similar training paths, the two spells would probably give similar results. Hardly scientific method, however.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
THROGG
Re: Bone Shatter (1106)
11/21/2013 06:00 PM CST
Oh, one last point. Neither 1106 nor 1115 hit things like constructs and golems. Needing an effective combat form vs constructs in OTF was one reason I changed Guenn from a pure caster back to a weapon user (the other choice was spell aiming and using things like crystal wands). 317 is quite capable of blowing away anything. I just have to be careful using it in Nelemar, to make sure the room is dry (Charl follower).
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
