We have a few major problems in Elanthia that could all be eloquently solved with the advent of a single system:
- Runaway inflation
- Undervaluing "strong" materials
- Numbers on every piece of gear that don't mean anything
We all know what system fixes these problems, Item Degradation or, as the folder name suggests, damage and repair. We also know this system has not been implemented due to fear of upsetting the playerbase. I am telling you now that it is time for some tough love. Rip off the bandaid and get it done for the good of the overall health of the game. The system is already half implemented (I realize this might be an exaggeration).
We all know there are a lot more silvers coming into the lands than going out. The current methods for reducing the total silver count are simply inadequate. The only way to really effect this is a persistent tax on the activity generating all of the silvers, hunting. The most sensible way to implement this tax is to have items degrade over time and need repair by the appropriate merchant. The more powerful the item, the more expensive the repair process. Nothing should ever permanently break but if you let it break down enough it should remain unusable until it is fixed. This would cause those who have the nicest toys to pay the most in to repair them. I would recommend that a fully degraded item should cost 50% of it's loresung value to repair and a linear scale be implemented below fully degraded.
Now for those about to freak out about this suggestion I really hope you are not the same people arguing for "fixing" treasure at cap. Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment. We are never going to justify an increase to what we make without first reducing the rate of inflation. Our silver income vs. outbound silver is out of control. There is no way we can expect to see it increased further at this rate. Higher level hunters are more likely to be using more expensive gear and will have higher repair costs. At that point we can argue that treasure needs to increase reasonably with level.
Finally we need to remember that the current design leans heavily in the direction of weight vs sturdiness. This makes the lightness of vultite or imflass much more important than the sturdiness of glaes or golvern. As I said the numbers already exist. Let's make use of them and give real value to materials that were supposedly used because of their strength. Further we can add an interesting choice to gearing between durability and weight. Allowing for lightening that reduces sturdiness and vice versa. Anything that increases the choices we can make about our own gear is a plus.
It is time to make some tough choices to preserve the overall integrity of the game. I think our current development team, under SGM Mestys, is the right crew for this difficult job. Besides, I'm sure Keios could kick this update out in a week.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
KITHUS
JARHEAD
Re: Item Degradation
12/16/2014 09:01 AM CST
I do NOT agree with this, but let me tell you why. First off, let's face it, 5% of the player base, and probably less, have 80% of the best items in the game. That's not finger-pointing or complaining, it's just the way it is. Those people worked hard to get those items and they deserve them. However, what you are proposing takes silvers out of the hands of those people who are working towards being able to afford something "Uber". I myself have no excessively valuable items. 7x HCP armor and a 7x longbow, not sighted or ensorcelled and all done through premium points, are my best possessions. Why would I want to spend my silvers repairing something I already have and use for my in-game livelihood? I wouldn't.
What you propose would cause one thing to happen to everyone except the excessively wealthy... all the nice really cool items that would be expensive to repair would be lockered and everyone would hunt with cheap gear, especially those people who don't have a lot of silvers to throw away and might own one decent item that they use all the time. So why would I want to strive to improve my possessions when I know the more my item is worth the more it's going to hurt my pocketbook to own it? The only thing this would accomplish is to keep the powerful items in the hands of the players with the most coin, either silvers or real dollars, who can afford to buy and maintain said items, and place them even further out of reach of the middle of the road player.
I'm sorry, this just isn't the answer.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
What you propose would cause one thing to happen to everyone except the excessively wealthy... all the nice really cool items that would be expensive to repair would be lockered and everyone would hunt with cheap gear, especially those people who don't have a lot of silvers to throw away and might own one decent item that they use all the time. So why would I want to strive to improve my possessions when I know the more my item is worth the more it's going to hurt my pocketbook to own it? The only thing this would accomplish is to keep the powerful items in the hands of the players with the most coin, either silvers or real dollars, who can afford to buy and maintain said items, and place them even further out of reach of the middle of the road player.
I'm sorry, this just isn't the answer.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
KITHUS
Re: Item Degradation
12/16/2014 09:14 AM CST
Radeek you are assuming the worst possible implementation of the system. I'd like to give our development team the benefit of the doubt and assume they can implement this intelligently.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
JARHEAD
Re: Item Degradation
12/16/2014 09:23 AM CST
No, I am assuming the reaction from the playerbase. And trust me, you'll see my gear lockered. What you propose is more like buying a condo. Pay for the unit and constantly pay for it's upkeep. I disagree that this is a solution and it will create more problems than it solves.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
COYOTERRE
Re: Item Degradation
12/16/2014 10:40 AM CST
I understand where you're coming from. I understand the economy needs a significant adjustment.
We play in an Elanthia where the system is gamed to advantage. This one would be as well.
You know how I will game this system?
Ebladed steel. I am perfectly capable of hunting to make coins using crap equipment, and then using those coins to cheaply repair my crap equipment. The profit can then be sold or, under your proposal, buy up everyone's lockered uber gear, because then I will have the coin to afford it, using garbage.
I'm not even all that clever about this sort of thing, but that answer came to me in about 30 seconds. I am certain the diehard profiteers could do better.
You know what will diminish? Player enjoyment. The years and trades and sacrifices to finally get that one beautifully altered, storied piece of gear? NOW I HATE IT, because it is too expensive to maintain. What does an invasion cost to participate in? 100 silvers. 1000 silvers. 10000 silvers? Creatures I can't even learn from, who beat up on my character due to FoF mechanics, and in an RP game, I just want to protect the town I love? And since I never make any coins during invasions, I have to evaluate if I can AFFORD to engage in Character vs Creature RP conflict, because of degradation to my gear?
YES, it is realistic.
But if I wanted realistic, I'd go join a LARP.
I want to blow off steam after a long/crappy/tiring day of work and play a game, and this game is already complicated enough as it is. There are nights that I don't log in, not because I don't love the game, but because my brain is not up to the task. You're going to throw in another complication?
No. Please, no.
All these ideas you have, KITHUS: What's with all the tough love and punishment for playing? It is a game. It should be fun. You're obviously invested in the game, you're obviously intelligent, and you're obviously in dire need of greater challenge. Come up with a challenge that is FUN for the rest of us, too. At the end of the day, it's a game, not a time travel training regimen designed to prepare us for a portal to Hobbiton.
THAT is your new challenge. Do you accept?
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
We play in an Elanthia where the system is gamed to advantage. This one would be as well.
You know how I will game this system?
Ebladed steel. I am perfectly capable of hunting to make coins using crap equipment, and then using those coins to cheaply repair my crap equipment. The profit can then be sold or, under your proposal, buy up everyone's lockered uber gear, because then I will have the coin to afford it, using garbage.
I'm not even all that clever about this sort of thing, but that answer came to me in about 30 seconds. I am certain the diehard profiteers could do better.
You know what will diminish? Player enjoyment. The years and trades and sacrifices to finally get that one beautifully altered, storied piece of gear? NOW I HATE IT, because it is too expensive to maintain. What does an invasion cost to participate in? 100 silvers. 1000 silvers. 10000 silvers? Creatures I can't even learn from, who beat up on my character due to FoF mechanics, and in an RP game, I just want to protect the town I love? And since I never make any coins during invasions, I have to evaluate if I can AFFORD to engage in Character vs Creature RP conflict, because of degradation to my gear?
YES, it is realistic.
But if I wanted realistic, I'd go join a LARP.
I want to blow off steam after a long/crappy/tiring day of work and play a game, and this game is already complicated enough as it is. There are nights that I don't log in, not because I don't love the game, but because my brain is not up to the task. You're going to throw in another complication?
No. Please, no.
All these ideas you have, KITHUS: What's with all the tough love and punishment for playing? It is a game. It should be fun. You're obviously invested in the game, you're obviously intelligent, and you're obviously in dire need of greater challenge. Come up with a challenge that is FUN for the rest of us, too. At the end of the day, it's a game, not a time travel training regimen designed to prepare us for a portal to Hobbiton.
THAT is your new challenge. Do you accept?
Respectfully,
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
KITHUS
Re: Item Degradation
12/16/2014 10:58 AM CST
I'm sorry Bill but I think these dire predictions of everyone lockering their good gear because they might have to pay a bit more to maintain it are far fetched. Would some people choose to use e-bladed steel, maybe and that's their choice. Most people would use their gear, pay the repair costs and the overall silver value of everything would drop as there was less silver available. I'm not even sure why you'd buy up all that lockered nice stuff when no one would be using it because of the new system and it is essentially worthless.
That said this is not about adding challenge. It is about adding depth and versatility, while at the same time making inroads into fixing the economy and treasure system. The game cannot provide any real meaningful challenge because there is no risk of permanent loss. This is not an attempt to fix that, nor do I plan to make any suggestion in that direction, outside of Platinum. At worst a creature can be so powerful it can kill me and I'll suffer a temporary con loss or a creature may very rarely disarm me and I could potentially lose a weapon if I'm not being careful. That's just the nature of Gemstone. It is not a game meant to challenge your "skill" but an environment for RP.
I do have some challenges I've tried myself that anyone is welcome to take up:
- My wizard Eronderl has never killed a single creature but he is currently level 51. I will cap him without ever killing anything or gaining a bounty point.
- I have a brawling monk who fights naked and will not go into town. If he gets too injured to find his own herbs he has to die and decay (In platinum) to correct it.
- I've never tried it but I've always though a paladin of Fash'lo'nae who uses nothing but quarterstaves would be painfully entertaining
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
That said this is not about adding challenge. It is about adding depth and versatility, while at the same time making inroads into fixing the economy and treasure system. The game cannot provide any real meaningful challenge because there is no risk of permanent loss. This is not an attempt to fix that, nor do I plan to make any suggestion in that direction, outside of Platinum. At worst a creature can be so powerful it can kill me and I'll suffer a temporary con loss or a creature may very rarely disarm me and I could potentially lose a weapon if I'm not being careful. That's just the nature of Gemstone. It is not a game meant to challenge your "skill" but an environment for RP.
I do have some challenges I've tried myself that anyone is welcome to take up:
- My wizard Eronderl has never killed a single creature but he is currently level 51. I will cap him without ever killing anything or gaining a bounty point.
- I have a brawling monk who fights naked and will not go into town. If he gets too injured to find his own herbs he has to die and decay (In platinum) to correct it.
- I've never tried it but I've always though a paladin of Fash'lo'nae who uses nothing but quarterstaves would be painfully entertaining
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
JARHEAD
Re: Item Degradation
12/16/2014 11:31 AM CST
I'm on the Coyote bandwagon here. I come to GS to relieve a bit of stress. Add to the stress in the game and I might as well take my ball and go play in the traffic. This is a text based, magical world and all the outcry for realism or adding difficulty to what I already consider a system that to a new player (and even to me at times) is quite intimidating and very complex to me is a bit on the silly side. The game as it stands now is hard enough to get ahead in and to add to that would probably drive a number of players to throw up their hands and just cancel their accounts. We don't need a harder world, we need a more populated one. The biggest issue I see in GS isn't how hard the game is or who owns what or how many silvers we make or how much town locksmiths charge or how many script hunters there are. The biggest issue is the low population within the lands. In my opinion before anything else is fixed or changed I think that should be addressed and corrected, for the betterment of all.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
SOLFE
Re: Item Degradation
12/19/2014 10:56 PM CST
A long time ago, I suggested a modified breakage system. The gist was that all items were affected by breakage and could be fixed by visiting the appropriate shop. The twist, give and take on this was you paid for immediate restoration but if you were willing to part with the item for a week the price would be much reduced. The ingame function of this parting with the item was to allow it to not only be repaired, but cataloged by the local museum. The curators would underwrite the cost of repair in exchange for examination.
Additional items absolutely wrecked or lost to an implosion or disarm could be restored via the museum.
The how and why's aren't really important, the point is, a breakage system has to be a give and take.
I don't even have cool equipment, I am using standard 4x roves and a staff on my main character. Two of my characters are actually using plain old weapons mundane weapons by choice. Ideally, I'd like to use them from 0-100, I have no idea if that is even possible. But losing them would suck if there was no return on it.
Magarven the Mad
Additional items absolutely wrecked or lost to an implosion or disarm could be restored via the museum.
The how and why's aren't really important, the point is, a breakage system has to be a give and take.
I don't even have cool equipment, I am using standard 4x roves and a staff on my main character. Two of my characters are actually using plain old weapons mundane weapons by choice. Ideally, I'd like to use them from 0-100, I have no idea if that is even possible. But losing them would suck if there was no return on it.
Magarven the Mad
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Item Degradation
12/22/2014 10:10 AM CST
What you're forgetting Kithus is that 99% of the time when anything "bad" gets implemented in GS, there's no "good" implemented to offset it or justify it.
i.e. If they implemented this (or even real breakage like they were going to do in the late 90s/early 2000s), there would be little to no new high end gear released (outside of pay events of course) to compensate.
It would be nothing more than a nerf without a buff to justify it. You've played long enough that I'd think you'd know this. The in-game economy would be no different, the numbers would just adjust themselves proportionally. Which means nothing would really changed other than people having less fun.
~ Methais
i.e. If they implemented this (or even real breakage like they were going to do in the late 90s/early 2000s), there would be little to no new high end gear released (outside of pay events of course) to compensate.
It would be nothing more than a nerf without a buff to justify it. You've played long enough that I'd think you'd know this. The in-game economy would be no different, the numbers would just adjust themselves proportionally. Which means nothing would really changed other than people having less fun.
~ Methais
KITHUS
Re: Item Degradation
12/22/2014 12:14 PM CST
I have some faith that our current APM sees the big picture. I doubt he would put in something like this in a vacuum. I could see him putting it in along with a larger project to re-balance the treasure system. I simply do not think we will ever see meaningful change to the treasure system without a corresponding system to remove silver from the lands.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
KRAKII
Re: Item Degradation
12/22/2014 04:02 PM CST
"What you're forgetting Kithus is that 99% of the time when anything "bad" gets implemented in GS, there's no "good" implemented to offset it or justify it." -- Methais
What you're overlooking, Methais, is that 90+% of the time when anything gets implemented in GS, it's "good" (because it's a new addition that was never available/possible before). And of the remaining 10% of things implemented, probably 90+% of those are downtweaks for something that is legitimately unbalanced.
.
.
"i.e. If they implemented this (or even real breakage like they were going to do in the late 90s/early 2000s), there would be little to no new high end gear released (outside of pay events of course) to compensate." -- ibid
As one of the scant handful of people still here who actually played in a system where stuff did break (or get dropped to death, or lost to decay), there are only four (4) words to say in response. "You," "Are," "Totally," and the last one is, "Wrong."
Two case studies: Enchant, and merchant events.
The example that I keep giving is my armor, from +15 to +40. I handed the suit over to Kodos on a Friday evening, he figured it would be done by Monday night. (It was actually ready a day early, on Sunday, and I was quite happy to wear it while out slaughtering the last few things to scrounge up the money to finish the payoff.) Standard pricing for Enchants--in thousands per 'x'--at the time was: 20/40/60/90/150/300/450/talk to the Wizard for anything higher; he charged me 650k. Armor was always more worth your while to get Enchanted because weapon & shield would drop to the ground when you died, but armor only fell if you decayed.
I'll say that again: 650k, for taking +15 armor up to +40, expected turnaround time of three (3) days, and good temper times with the potions let him finish about 24 hours early.
No monkeying around with infusing mana into a pool. No multiple casts per level of Enchant. (It was a grand total of five potion pours/five casts: the 4x, the 5x, the 6x, the 7x, and the 8x.)
The ONLY reason that that situation could obtain, was because Stuff Was Going Away. It would be lost to death, it would be lost to breakage, whatever.
I remember at one single merchant event I went through the same guy's line like four times. He was putting edges (or spikes for Krush-type/tipped for Puncture-type) on weapons of the next-higher magical material to bump up the Enchant. (So putting making "a mithril rapier" into "an eog-tipped rapier" would mean it was +10 now.) So instead of a +5/+5 mithril Defender bastard sword, it was now--four trips through his line later--instead "a galvorn-edged mithril bastard sword", and +25/+5.
There is very little likelihood of walking out (with a net +30 item) from most events that I can think of nowadays. Even less so, for having the same service re-re-re-applied. The only reason I was able to go through his line four times was because his service was not in demand (I had a Defender, so I had to use a merchant and not a player-Enchanter); everyone was standing over in the tailor's line to get altererations.
You used to be able to order white eog[ora]/iorake[eonake]/shaalk[vultite] claidhmores from either one of the "good" traveling smiths that came around, usually once or twice a year (and in lucky years, once each!)... for like 300k, for the +20 materials. (I didn't really care about other materials, since the holy materials worked for me as a Cleric and would still hit mundane creatures just as well.) Or we could talk about Giacomo's merchant, with the +15 xenium-hilted serrated laen claidhmores being sold off the shelf (and with Trading discounts applicable). Padded suits of armor, on the quick-sell mannequins, at ever event.
Again: the ONLY reason that that system worked, was because Stuff Was Going Away. Armor and fluff less so (which is why alterations and toys were so valuable) because those only if you decayed.
Weapons and shields were cheap, and disposable, because--like any wooden baseball bat or shovel/axe handle--with repeated use it broke. And so there was a constant departure of neat/nifty/cool/uber-powerful stuff out of the game.
Meaning that there was absolutely NO problem of "overpowering" or "unbalancing" with releasing another round of neat/nifty/cool/uber-powerful stuff out into the game.
Because three months later when the next merchant caravan rolled around, there would be a bunch of no-longer-dead people needing to replace their stuffs.
What you're overlooking, Methais, is that 90+% of the time when anything gets implemented in GS, it's "good" (because it's a new addition that was never available/possible before). And of the remaining 10% of things implemented, probably 90+% of those are downtweaks for something that is legitimately unbalanced.
.
.
"i.e. If they implemented this (or even real breakage like they were going to do in the late 90s/early 2000s), there would be little to no new high end gear released (outside of pay events of course) to compensate." -- ibid
As one of the scant handful of people still here who actually played in a system where stuff did break (or get dropped to death, or lost to decay), there are only four (4) words to say in response. "You," "Are," "Totally," and the last one is, "Wrong."
Two case studies: Enchant, and merchant events.
The example that I keep giving is my armor, from +15 to +40. I handed the suit over to Kodos on a Friday evening, he figured it would be done by Monday night. (It was actually ready a day early, on Sunday, and I was quite happy to wear it while out slaughtering the last few things to scrounge up the money to finish the payoff.) Standard pricing for Enchants--in thousands per 'x'--at the time was: 20/40/60/90/150/300/450/talk to the Wizard for anything higher; he charged me 650k. Armor was always more worth your while to get Enchanted because weapon & shield would drop to the ground when you died, but armor only fell if you decayed.
I'll say that again: 650k, for taking +15 armor up to +40, expected turnaround time of three (3) days, and good temper times with the potions let him finish about 24 hours early.
No monkeying around with infusing mana into a pool. No multiple casts per level of Enchant. (It was a grand total of five potion pours/five casts: the 4x, the 5x, the 6x, the 7x, and the 8x.)
The ONLY reason that that situation could obtain, was because Stuff Was Going Away. It would be lost to death, it would be lost to breakage, whatever.
I remember at one single merchant event I went through the same guy's line like four times. He was putting edges (or spikes for Krush-type/tipped for Puncture-type) on weapons of the next-higher magical material to bump up the Enchant. (So putting making "a mithril rapier" into "an eog-tipped rapier" would mean it was +10 now.) So instead of a +5/+5 mithril Defender bastard sword, it was now--four trips through his line later--instead "a galvorn-edged mithril bastard sword", and +25/+5.
There is very little likelihood of walking out (with a net +30 item) from most events that I can think of nowadays. Even less so, for having the same service re-re-re-applied. The only reason I was able to go through his line four times was because his service was not in demand (I had a Defender, so I had to use a merchant and not a player-Enchanter); everyone was standing over in the tailor's line to get altererations.
You used to be able to order white eog[ora]/iorake[eonake]/shaalk[vultite] claidhmores from either one of the "good" traveling smiths that came around, usually once or twice a year (and in lucky years, once each!)... for like 300k, for the +20 materials. (I didn't really care about other materials, since the holy materials worked for me as a Cleric and would still hit mundane creatures just as well.) Or we could talk about Giacomo's merchant, with the +15 xenium-hilted serrated laen claidhmores being sold off the shelf (and with Trading discounts applicable). Padded suits of armor, on the quick-sell mannequins, at ever event.
Again: the ONLY reason that that system worked, was because Stuff Was Going Away. Armor and fluff less so (which is why alterations and toys were so valuable) because those only if you decayed.
Weapons and shields were cheap, and disposable, because--like any wooden baseball bat or shovel/axe handle--with repeated use it broke. And so there was a constant departure of neat/nifty/cool/uber-powerful stuff out of the game.
Meaning that there was absolutely NO problem of "overpowering" or "unbalancing" with releasing another round of neat/nifty/cool/uber-powerful stuff out into the game.
Because three months later when the next merchant caravan rolled around, there would be a bunch of no-longer-dead people needing to replace their stuffs.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 09:24 AM CST
>As one of the scant handful of people still here who actually played in a system where stuff did break (or get dropped to death, or lost to decay), there are only four (4) words to say in response. "You," "Are," "Totally," and the last one is, "Wrong."
One other thing you're overlooking is the fact that pay events didn't exist back then, which has been Simu's bread and butter for the past several years and is the avenue that 99% of high-end items have been released on.
I don't see Simu really doing anything in the foreseeable future that could potentially cut into that. It wouldn't make sense from a business perspective, and if it turns into, "Hey guys we're implementing breakage, but don't worry, we'll be having even more pay events to get new gear at, so it's a win-win for us all!", people will puke all over that.
I'm not necessarily against the system that Kithus proposed, I just don't have much faith in Simu as a whole to do it correctly and follow through on everything with it, despite Wyrom's awesomeness.
That, and I think the knee-jerk reaction/rage quits from a good chunk of the player base might be too much this time around. The player base was still big enough to survive Growing Pains, but these days, not so much.
Simu would have to, at the very least, outline a detailed plan on what they plan to do in addition to putting in this degradation/breakage system in, so that people would know it's not just going to be a nerf. They would have to give us timelines on when the "treasure buff" and whatever else would go in, and stick to it.
If they put this in and then were just like, "More items coming RSN to offset breakage", it would be catastrophic.
~ Methais
One other thing you're overlooking is the fact that pay events didn't exist back then, which has been Simu's bread and butter for the past several years and is the avenue that 99% of high-end items have been released on.
I don't see Simu really doing anything in the foreseeable future that could potentially cut into that. It wouldn't make sense from a business perspective, and if it turns into, "Hey guys we're implementing breakage, but don't worry, we'll be having even more pay events to get new gear at, so it's a win-win for us all!", people will puke all over that.
I'm not necessarily against the system that Kithus proposed, I just don't have much faith in Simu as a whole to do it correctly and follow through on everything with it, despite Wyrom's awesomeness.
That, and I think the knee-jerk reaction/rage quits from a good chunk of the player base might be too much this time around. The player base was still big enough to survive Growing Pains, but these days, not so much.
Simu would have to, at the very least, outline a detailed plan on what they plan to do in addition to putting in this degradation/breakage system in, so that people would know it's not just going to be a nerf. They would have to give us timelines on when the "treasure buff" and whatever else would go in, and stick to it.
If they put this in and then were just like, "More items coming RSN to offset breakage", it would be catastrophic.
~ Methais
KRAKII
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 11:02 AM CST
"One other thing you're overlooking is the fact that pay events didn't exist back then" -- Methais
The hardest part was trying to type the response through being doubled over with laughter. :)
The number of staff they have in the office was largely unchanged year to year, though since Melissa left and Bubba was covering both GS & DR, they have had one fewer "main salary" folks there. Andy is no longer doing web-work for them, and I think Gorlash has left as well, but I have no clear knowledge of whether their places have been filled nor by whom if so.
But if you honestly think there's anything like "no grounds for equal comparison" between $6/hour for five or six hours (which was a "kind of flow" weekday evening), or--in later years--$3/hour for 12-15 hours (which was an "event weekend all-day sit-down"), day in/day out for months... versus the paltry $15 they get for an entire month nowadays or even $50-75 for an event ticket... Then yeah, we're talking totally separate languages. And probably not even on the same continent while we're having the conversation.
(I'm not entirely convinced that they did not make more money under the per-hour system, even if they were only getting a cut of what the dial-in service charged the end-user, and under the current web-system they get it all.)
.
.
I believe they could do it, and I even think they could do it well.
Setting up for it could involve things like running two big events in advance of the system's advent, about T-minus-3 and again at T-minus-6 months. Go ahead and sell sexy new weapons/armor/shields for folks to try out. If Breakage never does happen, then hey, there's weapons & armor & shields for folks to use. Forever. If it does, they've gotten to play with them with no fear at all for several months, and then for however long they can husband them after.
Go ahead and turn the messaging on, so that people will be aware of HOW LONG something will last. (Things like "using a steel rapier against a glaes golem" aren't such a hot idea.") Watch the degradation as it goes on, and this allows for tweaking of the system in the background right away, too. Let 'analyze' (or some other less-overworked verb) tell the player about how much the repair costs would be.
Let people see how different materials work out. This could play heavily into a Material Review, as other folks have also commented about the "sameness" of materials. Lighter weight versus lasting longer versus higher Enchant versus elemental flares versus...
.
I don't expect to see it any time soon. (Remember that I talk about things happening "recently" as being in the 4-6 year range; "soon" is just the future form of "recent". :) Maybe not even at all.
But I think that it would the 'economy' of the game a whole ton, and I think it could be done (even, done well) by the current crop of GMs staffing things out.
The hardest part was trying to type the response through being doubled over with laughter. :)
The number of staff they have in the office was largely unchanged year to year, though since Melissa left and Bubba was covering both GS & DR, they have had one fewer "main salary" folks there. Andy is no longer doing web-work for them, and I think Gorlash has left as well, but I have no clear knowledge of whether their places have been filled nor by whom if so.
But if you honestly think there's anything like "no grounds for equal comparison" between $6/hour for five or six hours (which was a "kind of flow" weekday evening), or--in later years--$3/hour for 12-15 hours (which was an "event weekend all-day sit-down"), day in/day out for months... versus the paltry $15 they get for an entire month nowadays or even $50-75 for an event ticket... Then yeah, we're talking totally separate languages. And probably not even on the same continent while we're having the conversation.
(I'm not entirely convinced that they did not make more money under the per-hour system, even if they were only getting a cut of what the dial-in service charged the end-user, and under the current web-system they get it all.)
.
.
I believe they could do it, and I even think they could do it well.
Setting up for it could involve things like running two big events in advance of the system's advent, about T-minus-3 and again at T-minus-6 months. Go ahead and sell sexy new weapons/armor/shields for folks to try out. If Breakage never does happen, then hey, there's weapons & armor & shields for folks to use. Forever. If it does, they've gotten to play with them with no fear at all for several months, and then for however long they can husband them after.
Go ahead and turn the messaging on, so that people will be aware of HOW LONG something will last. (Things like "using a steel rapier against a glaes golem" aren't such a hot idea.") Watch the degradation as it goes on, and this allows for tweaking of the system in the background right away, too. Let 'analyze' (or some other less-overworked verb) tell the player about how much the repair costs would be.
Let people see how different materials work out. This could play heavily into a Material Review, as other folks have also commented about the "sameness" of materials. Lighter weight versus lasting longer versus higher Enchant versus elemental flares versus...
.
I don't expect to see it any time soon. (Remember that I talk about things happening "recently" as being in the 4-6 year range; "soon" is just the future form of "recent". :) Maybe not even at all.
But I think that it would the 'economy' of the game a whole ton, and I think it could be done (even, done well) by the current crop of GMs staffing things out.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 11:32 AM CST
>The hardest part was trying to type the response through being doubled over with laughter. :)
I'm well aware that it was pay-per-hour back then. It's not now, and Simu probably made way more money then than they do now.
That was kind of my point. Back then they didn't "need" pay events because they were already making piles of money. These days, it seems to be their primary source of income.
To fund other projects.
That fail.
:(
~ Methais
I'm well aware that it was pay-per-hour back then. It's not now, and Simu probably made way more money then than they do now.
That was kind of my point. Back then they didn't "need" pay events because they were already making piles of money. These days, it seems to be their primary source of income.
To fund other projects.
That fail.
:(
~ Methais
KRAKII
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 12:45 PM CST
Ah.
Sorry, I blame text. I had a totally different takeaway from that. :(
Yeah, we're agreed on the cash-flow then. :)
.
.
To be honest, I don't think most of their projects fail per se. Tiny Heroes did very well, but let's be honest: with limited (if any) new content (or an "open sandbox" kind of settings, such as my current go-to for Defender products [Desktop Tower Defense Pro] has), the re-play capability only goes so far. And without the Android chunk of the market the financial draw only goes so far.
HX & MO (hell, even CyberStrike) have their devoted core of loyal players. It's not like there is all that terribly much more expense in running smaller servers to handle those when they're already getting hardware and throughput handled. And pretty much any income stream is a good income stream. :)
The only thing that I've heard of that really went belly-up was the Dragons of Elanthia thing on KickStarter. Have there been others? (And no, I'm not counting in-game projects of one of the existing products. I mean whole new product.)
Sorry, I blame text. I had a totally different takeaway from that. :(
Yeah, we're agreed on the cash-flow then. :)
.
.
To be honest, I don't think most of their projects fail per se. Tiny Heroes did very well, but let's be honest: with limited (if any) new content (or an "open sandbox" kind of settings, such as my current go-to for Defender products [Desktop Tower Defense Pro] has), the re-play capability only goes so far. And without the Android chunk of the market the financial draw only goes so far.
HX & MO (hell, even CyberStrike) have their devoted core of loyal players. It's not like there is all that terribly much more expense in running smaller servers to handle those when they're already getting hardware and throughput handled. And pretty much any income stream is a good income stream. :)
The only thing that I've heard of that really went belly-up was the Dragons of Elanthia thing on KickStarter. Have there been others? (And no, I'm not counting in-game projects of one of the existing products. I mean whole new product.)
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 02:17 PM CST
>Have there been others?
Does HJ count? :(
~ Methais
Does HJ count? :(
~ Methais
KRAKII
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 03:53 PM CST
Ahhh, but even their failure was mitigated: since they licensed that engine to someone (SW:G?) they at least got to milk it for a little bit of RoI.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 06:16 PM CST
The HJ engine was definitely a success. The game itself...well you know. :(
Maybe I'm in the minority here but if by some miracle GS were able to be translated into a graphical MMO with all of its current combat mechanics intact, it would be pretty incredible.
Will never happen, but would still be incredible.
~ Methais
Maybe I'm in the minority here but if by some miracle GS were able to be translated into a graphical MMO with all of its current combat mechanics intact, it would be pretty incredible.
Will never happen, but would still be incredible.
~ Methais
COYOTERRE
Re: Item Degradation
12/23/2014 09:31 PM CST
>Maybe I'm in the minority here but if by some miracle GS were able to be translated into a graphical MMO with all of its current combat mechanics intact, it would be pretty incredible.
I was really, really, really excited at the idea of HJ, a graphical MMORPG with the live online GM's like we have in GS, and the ability to customize things like we can with text. I'm glad at least they made some ROI on selling/leasing the engine, but ... yea, that was something I was hoping to see in my lifetime.
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
I was really, really, really excited at the idea of HJ, a graphical MMORPG with the live online GM's like we have in GS, and the ability to customize things like we can with text. I'm glad at least they made some ROI on selling/leasing the engine, but ... yea, that was something I was hoping to see in my lifetime.
~ Bill, Coyote.
The Black Diamond Masquerade Ball: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Current%20and%20Upcoming%20Events/thread/1675348#
DVDMORSE
Re: Item Degradation
12/26/2014 08:52 PM CST
Ah, it's been a while since we've had this debate. I like it much better when this folder is quiet.
I'll keep my response brief this time:
A damage and repair system--fine, as long as anything can be repaired. I'm fine with having to do upkeep on weapons and armor to keep them in good shape. As long as the loss is avoidable, no problem.
Irreparable damage system to take items out of the game=my accounts would all be closed. I can't think of anything else that would be as certain to get me to quit.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
I'll keep my response brief this time:
A damage and repair system--fine, as long as anything can be repaired. I'm fine with having to do upkeep on weapons and armor to keep them in good shape. As long as the loss is avoidable, no problem.
Irreparable damage system to take items out of the game=my accounts would all be closed. I can't think of anything else that would be as certain to get me to quit.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
DAID
Re: Item Degradation
12/30/2014 08:23 AM CST
>I don't see Simu really doing anything in the foreseeable future that could potentially cut into that. It wouldn't make sense from a business perspective, and if it turns into, "Hey guys we're implementing breakage, but don't worry, we'll be having even more pay events to get new gear at, so it's a win-win for us all!", people will puke all over that
I just wanted to chime in my very sophisticated reply to this thread, by emulating barfing sounds in text:
Buuuuuuuuuuuullllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeggggggghhh.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
I just wanted to chime in my very sophisticated reply to this thread, by emulating barfing sounds in text:
Buuuuuuuuuuuullllllllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeggggggghhh.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
