Any plans for new UAC using critters? or updates to old critters to use UAC? A grappling and kicking elder centaur would be sweet.
VANKRASN39
HEATHERHAZE
Re: UAC creatures
01/09/2014 05:22 PM CST
<<<Any plans for new UAC using critters? or updates to old critters to use UAC? A grappling and kicking elder centaur would be sweet.>>>
I hate to say this because it may sound a bit snarky to the UAC system (which I like, overall), but I suspect the main reason we haven't seen UAC critters so far is because they'd be a joke. It may work okay for characters, but how long do you think a critter would last when it started jabbing, trying to tier up? Heh...
Snarkiness aside, I'd love to be proven wrong and see some cool UAC critters released. I could envision such creatures being particularly designed to give UAC characters a significant edge, perhaps giving such characters a renewed sense of purpose.
~ Heathyr and friends
I hate to say this because it may sound a bit snarky to the UAC system (which I like, overall), but I suspect the main reason we haven't seen UAC critters so far is because they'd be a joke. It may work okay for characters, but how long do you think a critter would last when it started jabbing, trying to tier up? Heh...
Snarkiness aside, I'd love to be proven wrong and see some cool UAC critters released. I could envision such creatures being particularly designed to give UAC characters a significant edge, perhaps giving such characters a renewed sense of purpose.
~ Heathyr and friends
GS4-FINROS
Re: UAC creatures
01/09/2014 09:19 PM CST
>Any plans for new UAC using critters? or updates to old critters to use UAC? A grappling and kicking elder centaur would be sweet.
I have plans for them, yes. Unarmed combat was designed to be usable by critters from the beginning, and I've had a test critter that can make basic unarmed attacks for months now. I've just been diverted by other priorities and haven't found time to create/convert a live critter over yet.
>I hate to say this because it may sound a bit snarky to the UAC system (which I like, overall), but I suspect the main reason we haven't seen UAC critters so far is because they'd be a joke. It may work okay for characters, but how long do you think a critter would last when it started jabbing, trying to tier up? Heh...
Certainly, any character that regularly kills and/or disables creatures without allowing that creature to make an attack, will have no trouble with an unarmed creature (just as they have no trouble with melee or spellcasting creatures). On the other hand, spell tanking won't make you immune from an unarmed attack in the way that it can for an AS or CS attack, and a creature who does get off an unarmed attack will probably connect -- and have a pretty good chance of tiering up, ready for the next attack...
I have plans for them, yes. Unarmed combat was designed to be usable by critters from the beginning, and I've had a test critter that can make basic unarmed attacks for months now. I've just been diverted by other priorities and haven't found time to create/convert a live critter over yet.
>I hate to say this because it may sound a bit snarky to the UAC system (which I like, overall), but I suspect the main reason we haven't seen UAC critters so far is because they'd be a joke. It may work okay for characters, but how long do you think a critter would last when it started jabbing, trying to tier up? Heh...
Certainly, any character that regularly kills and/or disables creatures without allowing that creature to make an attack, will have no trouble with an unarmed creature (just as they have no trouble with melee or spellcasting creatures). On the other hand, spell tanking won't make you immune from an unarmed attack in the way that it can for an AS or CS attack, and a creature who does get off an unarmed attack will probably connect -- and have a pretty good chance of tiering up, ready for the next attack...
HEATHERHAZE
Re: UAC creatures
01/09/2014 09:55 PM CST
<<<On the other hand, spell tanking won't make you immune from an unarmed attack in the way that it can for an AS or CS attack, and a creature who does get off an unarmed attack will probably connect -- and have a pretty good chance of tiering up, ready for the next attack...>>>
True. However, with some critters, you don't dare let them get off the first shot, spell, or maneuver, because it will likely be lethal (if not immediately, then as a result of a stun or disabling effect). Not so much with a jab. Chances are likely the critter will have to make at least two successful attacks to be much of a threat. Of course, that depends heavily on the relative levels.
Then again, I've only experienced the UAC system from the point of view of the aggressor, so perhaps it was unfair of me to say UAC critters would be a joke. Especially since I get the distinct feeling you're about to prove me wrong.
And I'm definitely okay with that. :)
~ Heathyr and friends
True. However, with some critters, you don't dare let them get off the first shot, spell, or maneuver, because it will likely be lethal (if not immediately, then as a result of a stun or disabling effect). Not so much with a jab. Chances are likely the critter will have to make at least two successful attacks to be much of a threat. Of course, that depends heavily on the relative levels.
Then again, I've only experienced the UAC system from the point of view of the aggressor, so perhaps it was unfair of me to say UAC critters would be a joke. Especially since I get the distinct feeling you're about to prove me wrong.
And I'm definitely okay with that. :)
~ Heathyr and friends
EULOGIA
Re: UAC creatures
01/09/2014 11:57 PM CST
>>On the other hand, spell tanking won't make you immune from an unarmed attack in the way that it can for an AS or CS attack, and a creature who does get off an unarmed attack will probably connect -- and have a pretty good chance of tiering up, ready for the next attack…<<
Curious to see this in action versus temporal reversion.
-E
THROGG
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 02:23 AM CST
Will my monk and brawling rogues get bonuses against their attacks, since they are trained in the same form of combat?
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
RATHBONER
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 06:05 AM CST
UAC bandits would be far more lethal than the weapon using variety. All those swing and misses while you are proned, stanced and in RT for 45 seconds will turn into a crit kill after 15s instead. Anything which can put you into any sort of RT lock will murder you if it has UAC.
KITHUS
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 08:54 AM CST
Forget UAC while in RT from bandits. Ambush kicks to the head will be brutal.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
THROGG
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 05:37 PM CST
>>Ambush kicks to the head will be brutal.<<
This is exactly how my ambushing rogues hunt; UAC attacks from ambush are far deadlier than those conducted from the open. My rogue gals make my monk look like my grandma trying to use kung-fu. There is apparently no need to tier up when attacking from ambush, it apparently happens automatically, similar to the way a DS pushdown occurs when a hider is ambushing with weapons. They never bother with a jab; a kick to the head or a punch to the throat is their usual opening shot.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
This is exactly how my ambushing rogues hunt; UAC attacks from ambush are far deadlier than those conducted from the open. My rogue gals make my monk look like my grandma trying to use kung-fu. There is apparently no need to tier up when attacking from ambush, it apparently happens automatically, similar to the way a DS pushdown occurs when a hider is ambushing with weapons. They never bother with a jab; a kick to the head or a punch to the throat is their usual opening shot.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
GS4-FINROS
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 11:17 PM CST
>Curious to see this in action versus temporal reversion.
As with any other DS-boosting spell, 540 grants the same bonus to UDF as it does to DS (as a side note, this was one of the more annoying spells to modify to make it work with unarmed combat).
>Will my monk and brawling rogues get bonuses against their attacks, since they are trained in the same form of combat?
Why would they? There are no professional bonuses in unarmed combat (aside from the usual quartet of stat GIs, training costs/limits, spell lists, and cman access -- assuming you want to think of those as professional bonuses).
As to the comments on the difficulty of creatures using unarmed attacks (on both sides), I can best summarize by saying that creature design is a delicate process. Setting aside the player's "instant first strike" capability, it would not be difficult to design a creature that would regularly defeat players in one-on-one combat (using perfectly reasonable stats, spells, and cman selections). However, the design goal for creatures is that they lose in combat. The trickiness is to make the battle feel like a challenge while letting the player win the overwhelming majority of encounters.
I actually think that I'll be able to make unarmed creatures more challenging than melee creatures because of the system design; we'll see how it works out in practice when I finally get a chance to make one. Turning out as either "a joke" or "far more lethal" would constitute a design failure and I'd have go back to rework it. I hope that unarmed creatures will end up on the upper end of the challenge scale without being significantly more lethal than their peers.
As with any other DS-boosting spell, 540 grants the same bonus to UDF as it does to DS (as a side note, this was one of the more annoying spells to modify to make it work with unarmed combat).
>Will my monk and brawling rogues get bonuses against their attacks, since they are trained in the same form of combat?
Why would they? There are no professional bonuses in unarmed combat (aside from the usual quartet of stat GIs, training costs/limits, spell lists, and cman access -- assuming you want to think of those as professional bonuses).
As to the comments on the difficulty of creatures using unarmed attacks (on both sides), I can best summarize by saying that creature design is a delicate process. Setting aside the player's "instant first strike" capability, it would not be difficult to design a creature that would regularly defeat players in one-on-one combat (using perfectly reasonable stats, spells, and cman selections). However, the design goal for creatures is that they lose in combat. The trickiness is to make the battle feel like a challenge while letting the player win the overwhelming majority of encounters.
I actually think that I'll be able to make unarmed creatures more challenging than melee creatures because of the system design; we'll see how it works out in practice when I finally get a chance to make one. Turning out as either "a joke" or "far more lethal" would constitute a design failure and I'd have go back to rework it. I hope that unarmed creatures will end up on the upper end of the challenge scale without being significantly more lethal than their peers.
THROGG
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 11:34 PM CST
>> There are no professional bonuses in unarmed combat <<
You are referring to GS IV as it stands now. I am referring to more factual matters. A fight between two persons trained in martial arts is going to be different than with one of them untrained. Think Jean-Claude van Dam vs Chuck Norris, as opposed to Bruce Lee vs some untrained street punk.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
You are referring to GS IV as it stands now. I am referring to more factual matters. A fight between two persons trained in martial arts is going to be different than with one of them untrained. Think Jean-Claude van Dam vs Chuck Norris, as opposed to Bruce Lee vs some untrained street punk.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
THROGG
Re: UAC creatures
01/10/2014 11:37 PM CST
Or to put in an even better example from current GS game design; someone trained in a CMan can defend better against that same maneuver than someone who is untrained. Should have used that as an argument from the start :P
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
HEATHERHAZE
Re: UAC creatures
01/11/2014 02:02 AM CST
<<<Turning out as either "a joke" or "far more lethal" would constitute a design failure and I'd have go back to rework it. I hope that unarmed creatures will end up on the upper end of the challenge scale without being significantly more lethal than their peers.>>>
I regret my choice of words. I was doing a poor job of making a tongue-in-cheek snark about the UAC system (which, again, I actually like). And some of the comments in reply have, I think, aptly shown that UAC critters could potentially be very challenging. Naturally, it depends upon how they're implemented. Given that the goal of any GM creating such a creature would be to create a balanced yet challenging foe, I don't seriously think the UAC system would fall flat, in the end. But...it will certainly be interesting.
Now having said all that...
<<<Will my monk and brawling rogues get bonuses against their attacks, since they are trained in the same form of combat?>>>
<<<Why would they? There are no professional bonuses in unarmed combat (aside from the usual quartet of stat GIs, training costs/limits, spell lists, and cman access -- assuming you want to think of those as professional bonuses).>>>
Hearing this really surprises me. I would expect one trained in unarmed combat to have a significant advantage when defending against an opposing unarmed fighter, as opposed to someone without any training. If the issue is professional bonuses then I agree, there's no need for that. But to me, the question seemed related to their UAC training, not necessarily their profession (which is incidental). As a long time martial artist, myself, I know that an opponent with training is much more of a challenge than one without. I can't believe a UAC trained character would receive no defensive bonus vs. a UAC critter. But perhaps this is simply a misunderstanding?
~ Heathyr and friends
I regret my choice of words. I was doing a poor job of making a tongue-in-cheek snark about the UAC system (which, again, I actually like). And some of the comments in reply have, I think, aptly shown that UAC critters could potentially be very challenging. Naturally, it depends upon how they're implemented. Given that the goal of any GM creating such a creature would be to create a balanced yet challenging foe, I don't seriously think the UAC system would fall flat, in the end. But...it will certainly be interesting.
Now having said all that...
<<<Will my monk and brawling rogues get bonuses against their attacks, since they are trained in the same form of combat?>>>
<<<Why would they? There are no professional bonuses in unarmed combat (aside from the usual quartet of stat GIs, training costs/limits, spell lists, and cman access -- assuming you want to think of those as professional bonuses).>>>
Hearing this really surprises me. I would expect one trained in unarmed combat to have a significant advantage when defending against an opposing unarmed fighter, as opposed to someone without any training. If the issue is professional bonuses then I agree, there's no need for that. But to me, the question seemed related to their UAC training, not necessarily their profession (which is incidental). As a long time martial artist, myself, I know that an opponent with training is much more of a challenge than one without. I can't believe a UAC trained character would receive no defensive bonus vs. a UAC critter. But perhaps this is simply a misunderstanding?
~ Heathyr and friends
RATHBONER
Re: UAC creatures
01/11/2014 07:40 AM CST
>Hearing this really surprises me. I would expect one trained in unarmed combat to have a significant advantage when defending against an opposing unarmed fighter, as opposed to someone without any training.
Training in any form of combat provides defenses against all forms. If you are empty handed your brawling training should contribute to your UDF and reduce the MM on you just as your THW training would if you were holding a maul.
Training in any form of combat provides defenses against all forms. If you are empty handed your brawling training should contribute to your UDF and reduce the MM on you just as your THW training would if you were holding a maul.
