As a player, I love a little conflict to enliven my gaming. It adds some spice, and because real life is hardly conflict-free, some verisimilitude. There's one bit of real-world thinking that I hope we don't let intrude too much into gameplay, though, and that's implying any woman you disagree with is a whore. It's taking the easy way out, it stifles discussion instead of fostering it, and it's frankly uncomfortably close to real-life nerves for some of us.

Elanthia isn't inherently feminist. The Faendryl have a patriarchy, not a matriarchy (well, except for those three times when a Matriarch took over for a time). Women in Elanthian history are more often victims or political pawns (Cosima is the most recent example) than agents of change in their own right. Those are the IC facts, but during conflict, we need to take some OOC factors into account as well, and answering every verbal thrust and riposte with "you're a whore" is a cheap, facile way to shut down what would otherwise be a nice give and take. It's also a pretty silly way to discredit someone, if you think about it: "Oh, yeah? Well, you go on a lot of paid dates." People do that garbage enough in real life, and it's just dumb. I'd really like it if conflicts here could seek a higher level.

"But my character thinks that other character is a whore!" Yeah, well, if Lylia were real, she'd probably think a lot of ugly things too; she's mean. Because I'm in charge of what she gets to think and say, I refrain from saying the things that shut down dialogue and risk offending the player behind the target character. I'm not saying no character should ever call another a woman (or man, for that matter) of easy virtue, just that it shouldn't be the answer to any and every discussion:

"Clearly, the Empire was going to invade; look at these documents."

"Yes, but you're a whore."

"You must understand that the Empire has our best interests at heart."

"So what? You're a whore."

"We should stop fighting each other and turn our eyes to the real threat."

"Sorry, I couldn't hear you over all that whoooore."

It doesn't even make sense in most contexts. Lylia, despite being a proper married lady with a rather stiff public persona, has even had that hurled at her in discussions. That would be laughable if it weren't an indication of just how pervasive that foolish and facile non-argument is -- not just in the game but in the real world. Don't like what a woman is saying? Call her a whore. It gets really old. There are times when it's warranted -- a character puts the moves on another character's husband, say, or publicly brags about her goal of warming some NPC's bed -- but it isn't the answer to every discussion. When I see it done, no matter who's doing the talking or which side of the conflict my character takes, I cringe as a player.

I'm not trying to govern anyone else's roleplay or tell you what you can and can't say, nor am I a proponent of political correctness in Elanthia. I'm just asking that we think about what we say to other players' characters and whether those things open dialogue or slam it shut. Do those comments make sense IC, or are we going for the easy, lazy jab? Could something hurt a player and not just the character he or she plays? Would arguing against the substance of what a character says be more effective than attempting to dismiss that character altogether?

<it's fun to argue and bicker with one another, but if everyone just slings ad hominem attacks all day long, it gets old and it's not interesting.

I agree, and it's why I've taken to removing Lylia from gatherings of Cross adherents and their opposition. It's more an inevitable byproduct of the pace at which the story unfolds than any lack of creativity on the part of players, but any large-scale discussion between the two factions pretty much boils down to "I know you are, but what am I?" I can't come up with anything better than that myself, so I get out unless some new bit of information is being discussed, e.g., those maps and plans from the Earl's desk. It's natural for the story to take place over weeks and months, and I love that Kenstrom and company are thinking on this grand scale, but I need to find ways as a player to drop out of the conflict for a bit. The Midsummer Nights festival has been a wonderful vacation from the Landing's woes.

I worry a little that it might give the impression I'm only into the story when NPCs are around, but it's more that when an NPC is there, things are a little more orderly. I like conflict, but only a little conflict. Otherwise, I feel like I'm in a room of young-Earth creationists talking to evolutionary biologists or maybe a bunch of writers who are pro- and anti-Oxford-comma. No one's going to settle these debates or persuade anyone, and while it's sometimes fun to spar for the sake of sparring, a steady diet of it isn't to my tastes. I push away from the table for a bit. Hey, that leaves more vitriol for everyone else, right? :)

--- Lylia's player, who is a lot less quarrelsome than her character

I agree with you, Lylia's player, and I hope that I haven't done that - I don't think I have.

I'm also going to agree with Madmountan's post. Everyone's insults are no longer interesting or relevant. They're just lazy RP. Don't agree? Well, you're a big stupid head and your mama dresses you funny. I go from feeling totally immersed into the character into feeling as if I've stumbled onto a grade school playground.

While none of this troubles me too much, as it tends to feed into the growing sense of contempt that he feels for certain points of view, which makes it easier for him to do and say what he feels is best.. if there IS anyone left with genuine concern over an increasingly troublesome situation, their message is absolutely getting lost.

If your character can't deliver your message of faith or belief without insult? You're doing it wrong. IMLTHO

Mind you, sometimes the insults are necessary to do just that: end the conversation. And I expect that at this rate, my character will just resort to indulging on absinthe and returning the favor. Which, if his past is any indication, will be far more colorful and creative than anything I've seen so far. :-)

~ Bill, Coyote.

Seems a reasonable request.

~Taverkin

>Mind you, sometimes the insults are necessary to do just that: end the conversation.

You're right, and as I noted in my first post, sometimes garden implements such as spades and hoes are exactly what they seem to be. There are occasions when a character's behavior merits some similar in-character nastiness in turn. Sometimes it's hard to see all that leads up to an exchange of insults, too, so what may be an entirely legitimate war of words between two characters only looks shocking to people who walked in on the last part of it.

Hey now. I know this is the Conflict folder, but do you really want to start the comma debate?

Because I'm ready if you are. ::cracks knuckles::

Dave, Brandain's Bard, Cambridge Guide adherent. Because as General Melchett told us, "Oxford is a complete dump!"

It's definitely pretty crappy that anyone would consider calling someone else a whore a reasonable thing to say in an argument (in general, let alone in game) and it's a sign that someone just failed to make their point. I'm actually surprised it's allowed in game since I wasn't at Ivas's temple destruction.

Personally, if someone had called my character this, I would have assumed that the word was not allowed in game so I probably would have REPORTed it just like if someone had used any other choice words that probably aren't allowed in game. Even if the word is allowed, I would have reported it because it would definitely be something I'd interpret as an insult directed toward me as a player rather than my character, especially if it was an ongoing thing. So maybe try that?

I also agree that a lot of the storylines do have a significant element of men as actors and women as victims, which is pretty unfortunate.

That said, I totally disagree about Oxford commas. They are wholly unnecessary if one phrases ones sentences correctly, as noted by every English-speaking country other than the USA (which has also bastardized the spelling of words such as "colour", "centre" and "honour").

<or if another character is in fact roleplaying a prostitute, which would be tough to do well and color within the lines, but it's possible.

Old Winniefred and The Madam in Talador......Awesome awesome awesome NPC's

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

>To me, the objectionable thing about "whore" isn't the word itself but when it's used to stifle what someone says -- more specifically, what a woman says as almost no one uses the term on men.

This.

---

>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."

American universities reserve their commas for the tuition bill.