I'm a bit disappointed with shielded brawler skill. I have 3 ranks of it, and there is still a significant loss in effectiveness of my UAC attacks with and without my buckler. I'm basically thinking of just never using the buckler unless facing a foe that has a bolt attack (I have 3 ranks of deflect elements also). I did pick up 1 rank of TWC for a slight boost in DS. What would be the return on DS increase if I picked up more ranks of this skill?
For comparison, here's logs of two attacks, one without buckler and one with. The MB difference is still huge, despite the 3 shielded brawler ranks.
1) No shield; the second strike actually missed it's target area, but even this still led to a fatal hit. 2 strikes is the usual for stone giants (like level, as I just hit 58 trainings). It's rare that I need a third attack with these critters ... unless I am using my buckler!
>>s
[Thanatoph, Eastern Slope]
Carefully stepping through the loose rubble of a recent rockslide, you take care not to make too much noise. A wide ledge sits just out of reach above you, beckoning you with the promise of shelter. You also see a stone giant.
Obvious paths: north, southwest, down
>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
...wait 1 seconds.
...wait 1 seconds.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 324 = 1.111 * MM: 107 + d100: 61 = 179
... and hit for 47 points of damage!
Furious fast fist forces fibula fracture! Foot flies free, falling forward five feet forth!
The stone giant rumbles in agony as she teeters for a moment, then falls directly at you!
With a quick leap to the side, you narrowly avoid being crushed as the stone giant lands with a thundering crash!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
The stone giant is stunned!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
A stone giant throws her head back and roars, shaking off the stun!
R>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 309 = 1.165 * MM: 113 + d100: 98 = 229
... and hit for 73 points of damage!
Amazing punch to lower spine pushes it out through the abdomen!
The stone giant rumbles in agony and goes still.
A stone giant seems to lose an aura of confidence.
A stone giant returns to normal color.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
2) Now with buckler in place. It took forever to kill the damned thing; I felt like a monk! If I didn't have 3 ranks of shielded brawler, the MB would be even worse. Ick!
>>e
[Thanatoph, Eastern Slope]
The mountain rises sharply to the south while the path you are on leisurely wends its way eastward. You are sheltered somewhat from the wind and see that in the past, others have chosen this spot to set up camp. You also see a stone giant.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, west, up
>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have good positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 324 = 1.111 * MM: 94 + d100: 23 = 127
... and hit for 20 points of damage!
Descending fist ends its arc against left knee, sending the stone giant stumbling back. Once smitten, twice shy!
The stone giant starts to favor her wounded leg!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>cman vanish
A stone giant plunges her fist into the ground in front of you!
CS: +251 - TD: +207 + CvA: -1 + d100: +64 - -5 == +112
Warding failed!
... 5 points of damage!
Your shield arm twists oddly but snaps right back.
You are knocked off your feet!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
PR>
With subtlety and speed, you aim to clandestinely vanish into the shadows.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
PHR>stand
A stone giant touches the ground, feeling for vibrations.
The stone giant furrows her stony brow, cocking her head to one side.
PH>
You come out of hiding.
You stand back up.
>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 319 = 1.128 * MM: 94 + d100: 4 = 110
... and hit for 1 point of damage!
Awkward punch gently brushes the left thigh. It's like a first date!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>cman vanish
With subtlety and speed, you aim to clandestinely vanish into the shadows.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 319 = 1.128 * MM: 95 + d100: 86 = 193
... and hit for 45 points of damage!
Rotating backhand cleanly snaps tibia!
The stone giant is knocked to the ground!
The stone giant is stunned!
The stone giant starts to favor her wounded leg!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
A stone giant throws her head back and roars, shaking off the stun!
R>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 312 = 1.153 * MM: 100 + d100: 6 = 121
... and hit for 3 points of damage!
Strike comes up short, barely brushing the cheek!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A stone giant lurches to her feet!
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 312 = 1.153 * MM: 94 + d100: 9 = 117
... and hit for 2 points of damage!
Awkward punch gently brushes the left thigh. It's like a first date!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>cman vanish
With subtlety and speed, you aim to clandestinely vanish into the shadows.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance offen
> punch giant left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 312 = 1.153 * MM: 95 + d100: 74 = 183
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Furious fast fist forces fibula fracture! Foot flies free, falling forward five feet forth!
The stone giant rumbles in agony as she teeters for a moment, then falls directly at you!
With a quick leap to the side, you narrowly avoid being crushed as the stone giant lands with a thundering crash!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
The stone giant is stunned!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
A stone giant throws her head back and roars, shaking off the stun!
R>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A strong gust of wind blows by you!
HR>stance offen
> punch giant head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 305 = 1.180 * MM: 99 + d100: 7 = 123
... and hit for 3 points of damage!
Strike comes up short, barely brushing the cheek!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>stance defen
> hide
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A stone giant touches the ground, feeling for vibrations.
The stone giant furrows her stony brow, cocking her head to one side.
H>stance offen
> punch giant head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone giant!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone giant.
UAF: 360 vs UDF: 309 = 1.165 * MM: 100 + d100: 58 = 174
... and hit for 45 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The stone giant rumbles in agony and goes still.
A stone giant seems to lose an aura of confidence.
A stone giant seems to lose some internal strength.
A stone giant returns to normal color.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
RATHBONER
Re: UAC + shield vs UAC + TWC
12/04/2014 07:46 AM CST
You are comparing lucky die tolls (when you have two empty hands) with unlucky die rolls (when you hold the buckler). Unless you think that holding the buckler is the reason you are 30 worse on the d100, the buckler isn't whats hurting you most there.
61 knocks it down without a buckler, 23 and 4 don't with a buckler but 86 does.
98 kills it without a buckler, 6 doesn't without a buckler and it stands up so you have to knock it down again
9 doesn't knock it down, 74 does.
7 doesn't kill it 58 does.
A monk with lucky rolls would kill it with less RT than you took when you were lucky. You can eventually get to be better than a monk in every situation, but for solo hunting stone giants a monk has advantages over you and you aren't there yet. You'd get all the experience if you had a monk as a partner, but in stone giants separately and solo, the monk does better than you.
...
MM initial 107 vs. 94,95
MM proned 113 vs. 99,100
difference 13. With 2x training and 3 ranks shielded brawler the penalty is 9, so presumably you aren't 2x in shield and are taking some extra penalty for that.
Stone giants require a relatively high endroll (due to heavy armor equivalent skin) to get the crit rank needed for knockdowns and kills. It might be 60% chance with a buckler and 73% chance without.
In that sort of situation I find the threshold for a noticeable effect is around 5 so I'd expect you to find the difference of 13 significant.
If you are going up against squishier critters, you'll be in a situation where you are getting the necessary crit even on a roll of 1 and then there isn't a difference.
You'll also find the MM penalty hurts more the higher level you get to, because the UAF/UDF ratio drops and you need to accumulate the bonuses (punchmastery) and get rid of the penalties (shielded brawler, dumping the shield) just to keep the same chance of a significant crit on a like level critter. Unlike a monk, who has no options left at this level and just gets worse all the way from mid level to cap and beyond, you still have training options open to you to match the Red Queen effect inherent in the UAF/UDF formula. But if you don't keep adding bonuses and dropping penalties as you level, you will find you keep getting worse at UAC as you level, just like a monk does.
61 knocks it down without a buckler, 23 and 4 don't with a buckler but 86 does.
98 kills it without a buckler, 6 doesn't without a buckler and it stands up so you have to knock it down again
9 doesn't knock it down, 74 does.
7 doesn't kill it 58 does.
A monk with lucky rolls would kill it with less RT than you took when you were lucky. You can eventually get to be better than a monk in every situation, but for solo hunting stone giants a monk has advantages over you and you aren't there yet. You'd get all the experience if you had a monk as a partner, but in stone giants separately and solo, the monk does better than you.
...
MM initial 107 vs. 94,95
MM proned 113 vs. 99,100
difference 13. With 2x training and 3 ranks shielded brawler the penalty is 9, so presumably you aren't 2x in shield and are taking some extra penalty for that.
Stone giants require a relatively high endroll (due to heavy armor equivalent skin) to get the crit rank needed for knockdowns and kills. It might be 60% chance with a buckler and 73% chance without.
In that sort of situation I find the threshold for a noticeable effect is around 5 so I'd expect you to find the difference of 13 significant.
If you are going up against squishier critters, you'll be in a situation where you are getting the necessary crit even on a roll of 1 and then there isn't a difference.
You'll also find the MM penalty hurts more the higher level you get to, because the UAF/UDF ratio drops and you need to accumulate the bonuses (punchmastery) and get rid of the penalties (shielded brawler, dumping the shield) just to keep the same chance of a significant crit on a like level critter. Unlike a monk, who has no options left at this level and just gets worse all the way from mid level to cap and beyond, you still have training options open to you to match the Red Queen effect inherent in the UAF/UDF formula. But if you don't keep adding bonuses and dropping penalties as you level, you will find you keep getting worse at UAC as you level, just like a monk does.
THROGG
Re: UAC + shield vs UAC + TWC
12/04/2014 05:10 PM CST
>>You are comparing lucky die tolls (when you have two empty hands) with unlucky die rolls (when you hold the buckler). Unless you think that holding the buckler is the reason you are 30 worse on the d100, the buckler isn't whats hurting you most there.<<
I didn't really look that closely at the end rolls; I just saw that it was taking a lot longer for the combat to end. And perhaps the gods hate shield users and screw with the rolls; I actually used a shield 3 or 4 times during that hunt, and the results were always inferior with the shield in use. I just picked one log at random as an example for my query.
>>A monk with lucky rolls would kill it with less RT than you took when you were lucky.<<
Why is that? Are you counting the extra RT I get from hiding? I'd rather hide and not get hit than sit out in the open and have less RT; also I am not using shadow mastery actively here.
>> presumably you aren't 2x in shield and are taking some extra penalty for that<<
Unfortunately not; approximately 1.5x. Mind you, I wasn't aware that shield ranks per se had an effect on the MB. I have been putting spare PTPs into fitness more than shield; perhaps I'll try to grab some more shield ranks for a while.
>> But if you don't keep adding bonuses and dropping penalties as you level, you will find you keep getting worse at UAC as you level, just like a monk does.<<
Specifically what other skills do you suggest? I have 3 ranks of punch mastery and fully intend to get 5, but I assume monks would do the same, and you can't go over 5. Rogues can't go over 2x shield training, and 5 ranks of shielded brawler is, again, as much as I can stack on top of this. Hiding and ambush are, of course, a given for a rogue, which does help increase survival.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male."
I didn't really look that closely at the end rolls; I just saw that it was taking a lot longer for the combat to end. And perhaps the gods hate shield users and screw with the rolls; I actually used a shield 3 or 4 times during that hunt, and the results were always inferior with the shield in use. I just picked one log at random as an example for my query.
>>A monk with lucky rolls would kill it with less RT than you took when you were lucky.<<
Why is that? Are you counting the extra RT I get from hiding? I'd rather hide and not get hit than sit out in the open and have less RT; also I am not using shadow mastery actively here.
>> presumably you aren't 2x in shield and are taking some extra penalty for that<<
Unfortunately not; approximately 1.5x. Mind you, I wasn't aware that shield ranks per se had an effect on the MB. I have been putting spare PTPs into fitness more than shield; perhaps I'll try to grab some more shield ranks for a while.
>> But if you don't keep adding bonuses and dropping penalties as you level, you will find you keep getting worse at UAC as you level, just like a monk does.<<
Specifically what other skills do you suggest? I have 3 ranks of punch mastery and fully intend to get 5, but I assume monks would do the same, and you can't go over 5. Rogues can't go over 2x shield training, and 5 ranks of shielded brawler is, again, as much as I can stack on top of this. Hiding and ambush are, of course, a given for a rogue, which does help increase survival.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male."
THROGG
Re: UAC + shield vs UAC + TWC
12/04/2014 10:20 PM CST
I take it all back; after sacrificing to several of the Liabo Arkati, today I got a whole series of two shot kills despite using my buckler. The gods must have been upset with me last night.
They seem to like tarts; who knew the Arkati were halflings??
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
They seem to like tarts; who knew the Arkati were halflings??
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
RATHBONER
Re: UAC + shield vs UAC + TWC
12/05/2014 06:47 AM CST
>Why is that? Are you counting the extra RT I get from hiding? I'd rather hide and not get hit than sit out in the open and have less RT; also I am not using shadow mastery actively here.
Monks don't get hit (at least not 1vs1 at like level)
Of course I count hiding. Just like I count the 3s soft RT for 1207. Hiding is more powerful against higher level critters or multiple critters, but for a single stone giant like level 1207 is better at stopping a monk being hit than hiding is at stopping a rogue being hit. And just like I count the jab RT for a monk. Hiding is about tiering up as well as about avoiding being targetted. And just like I count feint RT for a monk. Hiding is about cutting through stance as well.
If you've been unlucky in getting damaging crits but still got the tiers, it may pay you to stay in the open. If the first shot gives a punch opening, it may pay to stay in the open and punch again straight away.
With lucky rolls the monk can do this, walk in on stone gaint, 1207, jab, punch head, loot, another stone giant walks in, 1207, punch head loot.
1 kill in 10s, 2 in 17s against your 1 in 14s and the monk does not have a chance of being toppled on either. You don't need to be as lucky to get the 14s kill as the monk does to get the 10s or 7s kills and overall you are taking a bit more risk and the monk is a bit slower but there isn't actually much in it.
A rogue walks all over a monk in Deadfalls but not in stone giants. Solo the monk remains decently functional compared to your rogue for a while yet. If you had a like level monk to stalk round stone giants, you'd walk all over them, but solo and separate the monk is still decently functional at this point.
>Specifically what other skills do you suggest? I have 3 ranks of punch mastery and fully intend to get 5, but I assume monks would do the same, and you can't go over 5. Rogues can't go over 2x shield training, and 5 ranks of shielded brawler is, again, as much as I can stack on top of this. Hiding and ambush are, of course, a given for a rogue, which does help increase survival.
You can't go over 3 ranks of mastery. And I had my 3 at level 22. As I said, its downhill for monks all the way from mid level.
You can lose 4 of your shield penalty by getting to 2x (and getting higher doesn't help even if you could train more) another 4 by getting to full shielded brawler, and the final 5 by doing without the shield. I'd say fully trained and using the option to attack without it when the situation was favorable for that, you'll be in roughly a similar position at cap to where you are with the shield now.
Third attack on this gnome which isn't an unusual number to need once they are spelled up. Pretty similar to your situation on stone giants. No shield, but only 2 ranks punchmastery. (I gave up the third for divert in the Bowels, but I'd be better off with punchmastery in Deadfalls)
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a deformed red-eyed dark gnome!
You have excellent positioning against a deformed red-eyed dark gnome.
UAF: 519 vs UDF: 516 = 1.005 * MM: 106 + d100: 81 = 187
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Explosive punch to the face leaves little else than a pulpy mass of blood, bone, and brain matter!
The red-eyed dark gnome falls to the ground and dies.
But catch them just spawned without spells and they one shot.
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a deformed red-eyed dark gnome!
You have good positioning against a deformed red-eyed dark gnome.
UAF: 518 vs UDF: 326 = 1.588 * MM: 97 + d100: 53 = 207
... and hit for 62 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The red-eyed dark gnome falls to the ground and dies.
Monks don't get hit (at least not 1vs1 at like level)
Of course I count hiding. Just like I count the 3s soft RT for 1207. Hiding is more powerful against higher level critters or multiple critters, but for a single stone giant like level 1207 is better at stopping a monk being hit than hiding is at stopping a rogue being hit. And just like I count the jab RT for a monk. Hiding is about tiering up as well as about avoiding being targetted. And just like I count feint RT for a monk. Hiding is about cutting through stance as well.
If you've been unlucky in getting damaging crits but still got the tiers, it may pay you to stay in the open. If the first shot gives a punch opening, it may pay to stay in the open and punch again straight away.
With lucky rolls the monk can do this, walk in on stone gaint, 1207, jab, punch head, loot, another stone giant walks in, 1207, punch head loot.
1 kill in 10s, 2 in 17s against your 1 in 14s and the monk does not have a chance of being toppled on either. You don't need to be as lucky to get the 14s kill as the monk does to get the 10s or 7s kills and overall you are taking a bit more risk and the monk is a bit slower but there isn't actually much in it.
A rogue walks all over a monk in Deadfalls but not in stone giants. Solo the monk remains decently functional compared to your rogue for a while yet. If you had a like level monk to stalk round stone giants, you'd walk all over them, but solo and separate the monk is still decently functional at this point.
>Specifically what other skills do you suggest? I have 3 ranks of punch mastery and fully intend to get 5, but I assume monks would do the same, and you can't go over 5. Rogues can't go over 2x shield training, and 5 ranks of shielded brawler is, again, as much as I can stack on top of this. Hiding and ambush are, of course, a given for a rogue, which does help increase survival.
You can't go over 3 ranks of mastery. And I had my 3 at level 22. As I said, its downhill for monks all the way from mid level.
You can lose 4 of your shield penalty by getting to 2x (and getting higher doesn't help even if you could train more) another 4 by getting to full shielded brawler, and the final 5 by doing without the shield. I'd say fully trained and using the option to attack without it when the situation was favorable for that, you'll be in roughly a similar position at cap to where you are with the shield now.
Third attack on this gnome which isn't an unusual number to need once they are spelled up. Pretty similar to your situation on stone giants. No shield, but only 2 ranks punchmastery. (I gave up the third for divert in the Bowels, but I'd be better off with punchmastery in Deadfalls)
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a deformed red-eyed dark gnome!
You have excellent positioning against a deformed red-eyed dark gnome.
UAF: 519 vs UDF: 516 = 1.005 * MM: 106 + d100: 81 = 187
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Explosive punch to the face leaves little else than a pulpy mass of blood, bone, and brain matter!
The red-eyed dark gnome falls to the ground and dies.
But catch them just spawned without spells and they one shot.
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a deformed red-eyed dark gnome!
You have good positioning against a deformed red-eyed dark gnome.
UAF: 518 vs UDF: 326 = 1.588 * MM: 97 + d100: 53 = 207
... and hit for 62 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The red-eyed dark gnome falls to the ground and dies.
THROGG
Re: UAC + shield vs UAC + TWC
12/05/2014 02:26 PM CST
>>You can't go over 3 ranks of mastery<<
Arg; had a brain fart. I was thinking of the fifth rank of shielded brawler.
>>Monks don't get hit (at least not 1vs1 at like level)<<
Have to check this out.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Arg; had a brain fart. I was thinking of the fifth rank of shielded brawler.
>>Monks don't get hit (at least not 1vs1 at like level)<<
Have to check this out.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
