This is a cross post from the rogue folder, illustrating my position that UAC is best suited to ambushing rogues and not Monks; apparently attacking from ambush negates the need to tier up.

>>Here is an example of the UAC used from hiding by an ambushing 2x brawling rogue (Same character as the prior post). Attacking from ambush seems to mean that no tiering up process is needed is needed. You apparently get maximum tiering by ambushing from hiding. This is with both hands empty. And, unlike using the old Voln-fu vs non-undead, it costs no favor.

>>RH> sneak ne
H>
[Glatoph, Glacier]
Although the flying snow makes it difficult to tell, you seem to be going around a large hill. Wind whips through the valley, the chill cutting straight to the bone. You wonder briefly if you still have feet, or if they've frozen off. You also see a frost giant.
Obvious paths: east, southwest
Roundtime: 2 sec.
RH> stance offen
> kick giant left leg
The shrieking winds become suddenly violent. The temperature drops drastically, numbing your extremities in a heartbeat. You cannot see through the flying snow and ice, and it looks as though you may be in trouble!
H>
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to kick a frost giant!
You have good positioning against a frost giant.
UAF: 202 vs UDF: 187 = 1.080 * MM: 96 + d100: 77 = 180
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Rapid twisting kick deals nasty double strike to lower left leg!
A frost giant falls to the ground grasping her mangled left leg!
The frost giant is stunned!
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>
A frost giant throws her head back and howls, shaking off the stun!
R> hide
Roundtime: 2 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
RH> stance offen
> kick giant head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to kick a frost giant!
You have excellent positioning against a frost giant.
UAF: 202 vs UDF: 177 = 1.141 * MM: 104 + d100: 67 = 185
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
Flying roundhouse lands severe blow to the head! Brain begins to ooze out through the ears!
The frost giant cries out in cold agony one last time and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a frost giant.
The light blue glow leaves a frost giant.
Roundtime: 6 sec.<<

However, even with TWC training, using the UAC seems to give only 1 attack. With two katars, I get two strikes.

"If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough."

<<<You aren't guaranteed a tier 3 upon ambushing from hiding, sometimes it's only tier 2, but it's still super duper more powerful compared to UAC from the open. Sort of feels like a slap in the face to monks that they get outdone by rogues and rangers who ambush/UAC. While I'm jabbing away multiple times to tier up, sometimes 4-5 times, the ambusher has already killed multiple times. >>>

Add bards to the insult, with 1 second jabs/punches courtesy of Tonis. Basically, every other class that can double in brawling is better at UAC than monks. Go figure.

~ Heathyr and friends

<<<You aren't guaranteed a tier 3 upon ambushing from hiding, sometimes it's only tier 2, but it's still super duper more powerful compared to UAC from the open. Sort of feels like a slap in the face to monks that they get outdone by rogues and rangers who ambush/UAC. While I'm jabbing away multiple times to tier up, sometimes 4-5 times, the ambusher has already killed multiple times. >>>

Add bards to the insult, with 1 second jabs/punches courtesy of Tonis. Basically, every other class that can double in brawling is better at UAC than monks. Go figure.

~ Heathyr and friends

---

My bard doesn't have Tonis yet, but he sure is a mean brawler! I am still disappointed that apparently his sonic weapon won't flare if I have him swinging one... even though it is suppose to, but it didn't last I checked.

--Zizzle

<<<My bard doesn't have Tonis yet, but he sure is a mean brawler!>>>

The UAC system really completed my original concept for my brawling bardess. I've tinkered with her training several times over the years, but was never quite satisfied. Voln Fu was awesome against undead, but unsustainable against living creatures. UAC requires a bit more finesse, but it's more versatile. Add Tonis into the mix and you turn into a super hero. Fun stuff. :)

<<<I am still disappointed that apparently his sonic weapon won't flare if I have him swinging one... even though it is suppose to, but it didn't last I checked.>>>

As Aratos alluded to, you might try a UAC weapon like a cestus or whatnot. It should be flaring if it's compatible with UAC. But flares have been known to go wonky once in a while. I usually fight bare-handed, but I'll play with sonics a bit and see what happens.

~ Heathyr

Interestingly, Monks can train ambush, too.

Interested in a ninja? Make one.

Oh, and tip to the bards of the lands -- Tonis does have a deleterious affect on your UAC, just as Haste does. It may not leap out, especially at lower levels.

But I'd encourage watching for the variance in tier probability over time, especially in higher end combats, and especially when 'sustained'.

Was an important part of testing for the Elf -- and part of why there's no significant 'rush' to UAC.

Hah! So funny. . .

Doug

A deleterious affect? I have heard about that but I'm just going to say that is BS. At 73 my monk, if he is using haste, is absolutely brutal in a grimswarm camp. I have noticed no deleterious affect whatsoever. Toss in rolling krynch and it is pretty nuts.

---

That's what I am saying when people think UAC is slow, should remember there is a spell called haste that makes it BLAZING fast! Tonis with a bard in your group is GRAVY! <smooch>

--Zizzle

>>Yes what were we thinking

I'll admit to being unclear about this point. I don't think UAC to be overly-fast, and I suspect that there will be some scorn for some time about the Haste drawback. There's a post about it -- Wizard topic, I believe -- Finros made.

I'm very confident, as is the case throughout much of the game, that it is discernable under certain conditions. I found it during beta -- and we know statistical analysis isn't my strength. Heh.

But I don't believe that's the point you're trying to make, Aluvius. Rather than guess, I'd like to ask you to amplify. If it is what I think it is, I believe it to be highly relevant.

As to the ambushing monk, it is a bit fringe I'll admit. I suspect the derision is about the hiding part, and the difficulties hiding at the higher levels in the game?

Doug

>This is a cross post from the rogue folder, illustrating my position that UAC is best suited to ambushing rogues and not Monks; apparently attacking from ambush negates the need to tier up.

As with melee ambushing, there's a skill check (based primarily on the ambush skill and relative levels) for the automatic tier-up. Theoretically, an ideal melee ambush will be slightly more effective on average than an ideal UCS ambush. In practice, the advantage is about the same. Your claim ignores the extra training requirements and setup circumstances to execute a successful ambush. If you were to claim that a rogue is a better UCS ambusher than a monk, I would agree with you.

>I have noticed no deleterious affect whatsoever.

As Heathyr said, the probability of a tier-up on any given strike is less. The penalty is probably too small, but I don't plan on going back to increase it at this point, since the fundamental problem is with haste, and there's only so far I'm willing to tweak other systems to account for it.

The derision was aimed at another post about the positive effects of tonis/haste on UAC, so why would anyone complain about non tonis/hasted open UAC being slow? The illogic of the statement bothered me. Also to me UAC is much less fun when you're hasted, but that's another issue.

As for the ambushing monk, yes the problem is that ranger/rogue professional bonuses throw the whole system out of whack for other classes since critters have to be designed with them in mind. Its not that it isn't doable, its that its not as effective. And yeah most of this stuff gets worse as you level up.

Got it, thanks. I think that's relevant.

And yes, agree that other professions are better at hiding, and thus are easier to set up for ambushing.

Doug

Frankly monks aren't the masters of UAC combat which is disheartening. They have one advantage and that is the rolling krynch stance cman. Some of the other classes were able to complain and get reduced MM penalties from armor/shields and access to the attack masteries, monks have no other mechanically significant advantages when it comes to UAC.

And when you weigh krynch against every other melee class's abilities, a big one being the ability to cheaply train armor use for CvA advantage, it means that monks are just average when it comes to open UAC.

Its frustrating. The mastery and penalty changes were introduced because there were a lot of non-monks complaining about how UAC was ineffective. Kind of ironic, eh?

One more idea for now, to tie in with multiple people attacking the same creature, I also think that the chances for tiering up should increase, after all with the creature trying to defend multiple foes more openings should present themselves.

>Rogues are supposed to be the best locksmiths; they can 3x in traps/picking.
Throgg

Picking /= combat

Being the best at picking doesn't mean anything when you can use an NCP to open any box 100% of the time and other professions can open 80% of boxes.


-farmer

There are plenty of classes that are clearly the top of the heap at particular styles of combat. You might argue that monks shouldn't be the best class at UAC (which I also think is silly), but are you honestly arguing that they shouldn't be in the top 2 or 3?

Okay, then I think we can agree! :)