I have literally never had occasion to cast this spell, because I don't care diddly about redirecting targeting (and if I'm hunting solo, there's no great mystery who is going to be the target...), nor do I need to force change of stance because Lullabye/1005 does "make them vulnerable" more better for 1/3 the mana.
.
However!
The 'renewal cost' section of the GSWiki article ends with an intriguing bit of language, "...adding additional round time to the target."
Oh, really?!?!?
What's this about 'Round Time'? <perk!>
And does this RT happen immediately, as with Slow and Pious Trial (since the ELReview), in the way that our RT-Song, Depression/1015, signally dooes not (Depression's additional RT is added to the next thing they do)?
KRAKII
CMNABRIT
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 03:38 PM CST
I on occasion use the spell to help others hunt... more often than not I use it on players or npcs to keep them busy/interrogate. The song has a warding check and if they fail I believe it adds rt immediately (been a long time since I've had it used on me). Depending on the amount of telepathy lore you have it can potentially raise the level of rage, the higher levels lead to the target falling or clawing at their ears,but I have found that even with 70 ranks of telepathy lore the rage level increase is hit or miss. In addition the song effects auto renew every few rounds if you and the target are in the same room when it fires off, adding more rt, and potentially the level of rage.
I have to agree that 1005 is a better spell choice in all imaginable combat situations, 1016 should likely be reviewed/replaced with a better utility spell.
Archales
I have to agree that 1005 is a better spell choice in all imaginable combat situations, 1016 should likely be reviewed/replaced with a better utility spell.
Archales
KRAKII
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 03:45 PM CST
Now, if it were whole-room (like Depression, one level lower [this is the big subtle "HINT, HINT" to the GMs...]) and THIS ONE added its RT immediately, whereas Depression tagged its RT on after the next (and later) go rounds...
...then heck yeah, this would instantly get added to my SSS. (Staple Starting Songs.)
Currently I lead with Unravel (easier to affect with subsequent stuff, and/or hit the juicy mana core immediately), then Depression (easier to hit with everything else later, plus more likely to survive because of added RT) once I do hit the mana.
If I could Rage the whole room to hand them RT now, then Depress them to give extra added bonus RT when they get around to doing something... Heck yeah. Bard for the win.
Then I could only Unravel when I actually have a need for mana and there's no 'mana pulse' available.
...then heck yeah, this would instantly get added to my SSS. (Staple Starting Songs.)
Currently I lead with Unravel (easier to affect with subsequent stuff, and/or hit the juicy mana core immediately), then Depression (easier to hit with everything else later, plus more likely to survive because of added RT) once I do hit the mana.
If I could Rage the whole room to hand them RT now, then Depress them to give extra added bonus RT when they get around to doing something... Heck yeah. Bard for the win.
Then I could only Unravel when I actually have a need for mana and there's no 'mana pulse' available.
KRAKII
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 04:05 PM CST
It may be that you aren't seeing a benefit from Lore increases in Rage step, because your successful warding result is already having (near-)max effect.
GM willing to clarify?
.
Another thought: sure, this forces them to attack, but I've already discounted that.
However, if this forced them to, only, use only a mundane 'attack' (as opposed to any chance for anything special like a CMan, or QStrike, or MStrike, or spell-cast, or summon allies, or <other creature effect>, or ...), then I could, again, see bringing this into use.
GM willing to clarify?
GM willing to clarify?
.
Another thought: sure, this forces them to attack, but I've already discounted that.
However, if this forced them to, only, use only a mundane 'attack' (as opposed to any chance for anything special like a CMan, or QStrike, or MStrike, or spell-cast, or summon allies, or <other creature effect>, or ...), then I could, again, see bringing this into use.
GM willing to clarify?
LUXELLE
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 04:34 PM CST
Lullabye slows them down, too, though... for lots less mana. Luxie grew up solo hunting, too, because there was just hardly anyone her level for so long.
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CMNABRIT
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 05:09 PM CST
I suspect you may be right about the warding margin against kobolds, I will try using 1016 on something more challenging like a bandit. Based solely on anecdotal examples I think the song does in fact make it much more likely that even pure creatures will try to attack the singer using melee attacks, I am not confident it out right prevents other types of attacks.
Archales
Archales
CMNABRIT
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 05:13 PM CST
I tend to rely more on physical attacks, but I like opening with 1015 anytime there are two or more creatures, then ewave, then pick them apart with 1002, and mstrike anything that didn't die from having its shield/weapon blown up. I don't have as many mana concerns these days, but I agree that 1013 should be cast first, so you don't strip your own songs trying to get at the mana reserves of your target.
Archales
Archales
MAMU1
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/10/2018 09:11 PM CST
1016 kept me alive through Stronghold and the Bowels when facing rooms with 2+ critters. It generated roundtime and knockdowns. I'd typically rage one, lullabye another. I'd swing at the sleeper then renew 1016, then swing and so on. I can't say I've used it much in OTF as I have enough mana to run tonis nonstop for 1 second feints.
-Drinin
-Drinin
KRAKII
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/11/2018 08:32 AM CST
All of this is good feedback; thanks!
KRAKII
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/12/2018 09:17 AM CST
Now that I'm back from being sick a day... :(
(Free tip for folks: stay healthy! And enjoy it while you are!)
"the song effects auto renew every few rounds if you and the target are in the same room when it fires off, adding more rt" -- Archales
- So it is not required to be manually renewed, but some times bangs off on its own? (a la the Interference/Interdiction spells that I was raising a big squawk about last year.)
- When you say 'every few rounds', we're talking what, 15s or 30s or 45s (sense of scale)? Basically, more like Unravel (~15s or it ends on its own) or more like Manna/Heroism feeling more refreshed (~ever minute)?
- Is that a timer visible in 'spell active', like Unravel is?
.
"even with 70 ranks of telepathy lore" -- ibid
(I stopped at 26 ranks, so you have: +88s renewal on me, -7TD pushdown more from Depression, +5AS more from Kai's [which I get free from 'mana spellup' but then 'stop', because I don't want the mana drain on renewal], and +22s more Tonis duration.)
Holy smokes. So I'm guessing you're a weapon-swinger? And/or using a Mastered instrument for Disruption (if you use that at all)? Do you find the extra duration meaningful?
Just curious about the decision for Telepathy vs. Manipulation. (Even with Dancing Weapon/1025, AS is affected by Manipulation versus duration from Telepathy.)
.
"It generated roundtime and knockdowns." -- Drinin
Knockdowns are from the clawing at their ears (or whatever the messaging is)? So they then have to spend an action to stand up?
Is the roundtime something that we can see ("...RoundTime: 8s") or interpolate (<this message> always == 4s, <that message> always == 7s, <other message> always == 10s) meaningfully?
(Free tip for folks: stay healthy! And enjoy it while you are!)
"the song effects auto renew every few rounds if you and the target are in the same room when it fires off, adding more rt" -- Archales
- So it is not required to be manually renewed, but some times bangs off on its own? (a la the Interference/Interdiction spells that I was raising a big squawk about last year.)
- When you say 'every few rounds', we're talking what, 15s or 30s or 45s (sense of scale)? Basically, more like Unravel (~15s or it ends on its own) or more like Manna/Heroism feeling more refreshed (~ever minute)?
- Is that a timer visible in 'spell active', like Unravel is?
.
"even with 70 ranks of telepathy lore" -- ibid
(I stopped at 26 ranks, so you have: +88s renewal on me, -7TD pushdown more from Depression, +5AS more from Kai's [which I get free from 'mana spellup' but then 'stop', because I don't want the mana drain on renewal], and +22s more Tonis duration.)
Holy smokes. So I'm guessing you're a weapon-swinger? And/or using a Mastered instrument for Disruption (if you use that at all)? Do you find the extra duration meaningful?
Just curious about the decision for Telepathy vs. Manipulation. (Even with Dancing Weapon/1025, AS is affected by Manipulation versus duration from Telepathy.)
.
"It generated roundtime and knockdowns." -- Drinin
Knockdowns are from the clawing at their ears (or whatever the messaging is)? So they then have to spend an action to stand up?
Is the roundtime something that we can see ("...RoundTime: 8s") or interpolate (<this message> always == 4s, <that message> always == 7s, <other message> always == 10s) meaningfully?
CMNABRIT
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/12/2018 05:45 PM CST
I didn't have the patience to sit and do extensive testing, but by every few rounds I meant every 3 rounds or so until your songs auto renew, the target moves, or the target dies. I can report that it does not prevent a creature from casting. However, you can manually renew it to keep the target more or less trapped in RT.
I am very post cap, so I have a variety of skills to use in combat I tend to use an even mix of magical and physical attacks. Probably not the same spells as a pure bard would use, but 1002 is a staple. I also use 1005 and 1008 a lot in warcamps because of the nerfs that were made to 1030, and the extra RT of 1008 + 1015 keeps dizzy longer.
I almost never hunt alone, my usual hunting partner is my brother who is also a bard, but more manipulation heavy, so I depress, then ewave, he sings 1030. I am pretty good on mana conservation but having the 70 ranks adds to my duration which allows me to renew/cast 1015/1030 at the cheaper renewal cost, for longer. Its also cheaper sometimes to slow down a room for what 6 mana or whatever it costs to renew 1015, rather than spend 35 mana on tonis.
I also wanted to see if having a crap ton of telepathy lore would make 1016 more attractive as a spell option, but results were ....mixed. I'll keep playing around with it until I need to burn another fixskill.
Archales
I am very post cap, so I have a variety of skills to use in combat I tend to use an even mix of magical and physical attacks. Probably not the same spells as a pure bard would use, but 1002 is a staple. I also use 1005 and 1008 a lot in warcamps because of the nerfs that were made to 1030, and the extra RT of 1008 + 1015 keeps dizzy longer.
I almost never hunt alone, my usual hunting partner is my brother who is also a bard, but more manipulation heavy, so I depress, then ewave, he sings 1030. I am pretty good on mana conservation but having the 70 ranks adds to my duration which allows me to renew/cast 1015/1030 at the cheaper renewal cost, for longer. Its also cheaper sometimes to slow down a room for what 6 mana or whatever it costs to renew 1015, rather than spend 35 mana on tonis.
I also wanted to see if having a crap ton of telepathy lore would make 1016 more attractive as a spell option, but results were ....mixed. I'll keep playing around with it until I need to burn another fixskill.
Archales
KRAKII
Re: Someone who uses it, clarify Rage/1016 for me?
01/12/2018 10:53 PM CST
More good feedback; thanks for the info!
