This might be a question that was asked and answered a long time ago (or might be more appropriate for the Aelotoi forum), but why can't one convert to L'Naere? As much as Aelotoi have been in Elanthia for a while, I don't understand why some of them wouldn't continue to follow their old religion (and maybe they could have converted others to their old religion during their time in Elanthia), but they do not really have the option of doing so.
I mean, I guess anyone who isn't a cleric or a paladin doesn't have much of a reason to convert to anything other than RP. So a person could just go around declaring that L'Naere is their preferred deity, but I don't see a reason she shouldn't be included as a possible option.
SARAH3
DAID
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 12:40 AM CDT
It's a nice idea, but one should consider also that Aelotoi are not the only race who don't necessarily follow the Arkati. It isn't necessarily even being from a different planet. Consider the half-krolvin, for instance.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Half-krolvin_religion_%28saved_post%29
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https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Half-krolvin_religion_%28saved_post%29
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INIQUITY
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 04:06 AM CDT
L'Naere is strongly assumed to have been executed by the Drakes. It was the punishment spelled out in the Legend of L'Naere.(*)
In other words, if she is dead, there would be no holy powers from her. I would set my CONVERT to "Ur-Daemon" if I could.
- Xorus' player
* http://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/aelotoi/lnaere.asp
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
In other words, if she is dead, there would be no holy powers from her. I would set my CONVERT to "Ur-Daemon" if I could.
- Xorus' player
* http://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/aelotoi/lnaere.asp
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
SARAH3
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 05:00 AM CDT
Pft, like being dead ever matters to gods (or to their believers, for that matter).
I found some old announcement earlier today indicating that when Aelotoi were first introduced, they were not allowed to worship the Arkati because they worshipped L'Naere (link: http://www.cmnservicesgroup.com/tsoran/news-06-04.html ). If the Aelotoi worshipped L'Naere on Bre'Naere, surely they would be inclined to worship her when they arrived in Elanthia and their beliefs would give them the same sorts of powers as if she was actually alive.
I found some old announcement earlier today indicating that when Aelotoi were first introduced, they were not allowed to worship the Arkati because they worshipped L'Naere (link: http://www.cmnservicesgroup.com/tsoran/news-06-04.html ). If the Aelotoi worshipped L'Naere on Bre'Naere, surely they would be inclined to worship her when they arrived in Elanthia and their beliefs would give them the same sorts of powers as if she was actually alive.
DAID
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 05:34 AM CDT
I actually assumed it was more a point of game mechanics than actual in-world reasoning, myself.
Step 1) Open can of worms
Step 2) Code special messaging for lots of Cleric Base and Paladin Base spells for each worm
Step 3) Profit?
Absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. You know, except someone has to take the time to do it.
Of course, this is only my personal sense. It would be interesting to know a comprehensive list of what kinds of gods are missing besides Aelotoian and Krolvin for CONVERT to at least know how deep the rabbit hole goes.
>In other words, if she is dead, there would be no holy powers from her
I bet if I told that to Sarah's dad about Jesus he might cry.
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Step 1) Open can of worms
Step 2) Code special messaging for lots of Cleric Base and Paladin Base spells for each worm
Step 3) Profit?
Absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. You know, except someone has to take the time to do it.
Of course, this is only my personal sense. It would be interesting to know a comprehensive list of what kinds of gods are missing besides Aelotoian and Krolvin for CONVERT to at least know how deep the rabbit hole goes.
>In other words, if she is dead, there would be no holy powers from her
I bet if I told that to Sarah's dad about Jesus he might cry.
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SARAH3
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 07:02 AM CDT
>I bet if I told that to Sarah's dad about Jesus he might cry.
No, he would argue with you.
No, he would argue with you.
DAID
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 10:35 AM CDT
>>I bet if I told that to Sarah's dad about Jesus he might cry.
>No, he would argue with you.
Better to make a slightly sarcastic comment about a third person in good faith than to offend random people on the forums making a more direct statement:
"Huh? This is a fantasy game and in reality people already worship dead people!"
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>No, he would argue with you.
Better to make a slightly sarcastic comment about a third person in good faith than to offend random people on the forums making a more direct statement:
"Huh? This is a fantasy game and in reality people already worship dead people!"
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
ZHOUY1
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 11:50 AM CDT
>Pft, like being dead ever matters to gods (or to their believers, for that matter).
My understanding is that Elanthian religions are not just a system where some people believe in and follow a deity. In order for a spirit to be considered a deity, clerics must be able to channel their power to perform magical feats: that is the foundation of Spiritual Magic. The reason that L'Naere is cnosidered "dead" is that no one, including present-day aelotoi, has been able to channel directly from L'Naere. It's not known if they were able to do so in the past, and since the aelotoi culture was systematically destroyed on their planet, they're not able to remember exactly either.
So, you can roleplay a worshipper of L'Naere and perform the rituals, but in order to actually use clerical magic you would have to CONVERT to someone else. And that seems to me a far more fascinating situation to play out than simply being able to convert to the chosen deity like all the other folk on Elanthia.
My understanding is that Elanthian religions are not just a system where some people believe in and follow a deity. In order for a spirit to be considered a deity, clerics must be able to channel their power to perform magical feats: that is the foundation of Spiritual Magic. The reason that L'Naere is cnosidered "dead" is that no one, including present-day aelotoi, has been able to channel directly from L'Naere. It's not known if they were able to do so in the past, and since the aelotoi culture was systematically destroyed on their planet, they're not able to remember exactly either.
So, you can roleplay a worshipper of L'Naere and perform the rituals, but in order to actually use clerical magic you would have to CONVERT to someone else. And that seems to me a far more fascinating situation to play out than simply being able to convert to the chosen deity like all the other folk on Elanthia.
SARAH3
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 12:21 PM CDT
Maybe L'Naere is just "dead" in Elanith because she doesn't have any shrines or holy places there.
...also the aelotoi culture wasn't wiped out on Bre'Naere. If it were, the aelotoi would not have their own culture when they arrived in Elanthia.
...also the aelotoi culture wasn't wiped out on Bre'Naere. If it were, the aelotoi would not have their own culture when they arrived in Elanthia.
ZHOUY1
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 02:17 PM CDT
>Maybe L'Naere is just "dead" in Elanith because she doesn't have any shrines or holy places there.
According to Braedn, who led the aelotoi into Elanthia, they did not know whether L'Naere really existed at all, or was merely a legend. The goddess apparently disappeared long before the kiramon arrival. So the aelotoi were not able to channel L'Naere on their planet either, despite likely having had shrines: if they had had any clerics who could use powers granted by their goddess, then there wouldn't have been any skepticism.
Mechanically, the CONVERT verb is specifically for determining which deity's power a character draws from when they use spiritual magic, and it's possible to do that without worship. Even for non-clerics/paladins, when they invoke holy spells off scrolls they are using their converted deity's influence. (Incidentally this is also why I don't like a CONVERT ATHEIST option since it's hard to reconcile that with how spiritual magic apparently works in the setting.)
Still, the story about her being killed by the other Arkati is likely very far from the truth, especially considering it was written by Meachreasim Illistim who has a tendency to be comically wrong about other races' histories (for instance he misdates the sylvan migration by at least 10,000 years).
According to Braedn, who led the aelotoi into Elanthia, they did not know whether L'Naere really existed at all, or was merely a legend. The goddess apparently disappeared long before the kiramon arrival. So the aelotoi were not able to channel L'Naere on their planet either, despite likely having had shrines: if they had had any clerics who could use powers granted by their goddess, then there wouldn't have been any skepticism.
Mechanically, the CONVERT verb is specifically for determining which deity's power a character draws from when they use spiritual magic, and it's possible to do that without worship. Even for non-clerics/paladins, when they invoke holy spells off scrolls they are using their converted deity's influence. (Incidentally this is also why I don't like a CONVERT ATHEIST option since it's hard to reconcile that with how spiritual magic apparently works in the setting.)
Still, the story about her being killed by the other Arkati is likely very far from the truth, especially considering it was written by Meachreasim Illistim who has a tendency to be comically wrong about other races' histories (for instance he misdates the sylvan migration by at least 10,000 years).
DAID
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 03:25 PM CDT
>Maybe L'Naere is just "dead" in Elanith because she doesn't have any shrines or holy places there.
Someone just finished reading American Gods, no?
I still think my general points, either mechanics or the other relevant options that in principle are also missing, are not all susceptible to the possibility of the gods being "dead". It's rather clear from the ban of Aelotoi to be clerics or paladins on a time that this is a coercion to join the fold of the Elanith deities. "You know, my hands are getting cold. Let's burn some of those books on L'Naere!"
Lack of regard to the general picture neatly disposes of the basic concept advocated by the opposition, as it has no universal application and is a minor bandage for a bleeding wound. I guess we can deal with each missing god piecemeal with hand-waving if we want, but I doubt the existing ones could stand up to the same stern examination. How many people have seen Luukos and lived to tell about it?
Since I'm not the OP, I have no real vested interest here. Seeing the CONVERT list expanded, considering the universe, and game, has otherwise grown so much since the ICE age 20 years ago, is not a bad proposal at heart. Mostly one needs what is likely several GMs to step up to the task, and the most probable answer is relevance and time constraints. (I know I keep saying that but, in actual fact we can argue until we're blue in the face, yet staff time is the most likely issue at stake and we ought to agree on simple facts like there gods that are MIA. "They are missing because they are dead!" Sure okay...did I mention the words 'fantasy' or 'god' yet?)
We could definitely get one guru on board perhaps (I have no one in mind, really), say to design the lore and some flashy versions for the two relevant spell circles. But then we need another guru to do the same. And at least one mechanics one to implement.
I'm definitely in favor but, to be frank, the larger problem is that CONVERT does largely jack for most people. This is certainly an issue that ties in to that discussion very closely, but how to make conversion relevant for 90% of the population (when you can RP whatever you want most the time without converting) is, to me, a much more serious issue to resolve.
Why care what gods the game lets you select when selecting a god mechanically means about piddly doo? After all, no one posting on this thread is discussing characters that are paladins or clerics! (I have one but it has no bearing here.)
I think that, in this case, it behooves us as players to, at the least, band behind the point that the gods and CONVERT list are clearly out of touch with the game advances and are stuck in the past. Otherwise I guess I'll fork the thread with krolvin deities I have no personal interest in to see you on the flip side with arguments that are dead in the water, just like L'Naere.
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Someone just finished reading American Gods, no?
I still think my general points, either mechanics or the other relevant options that in principle are also missing, are not all susceptible to the possibility of the gods being "dead". It's rather clear from the ban of Aelotoi to be clerics or paladins on a time that this is a coercion to join the fold of the Elanith deities. "You know, my hands are getting cold. Let's burn some of those books on L'Naere!"
Lack of regard to the general picture neatly disposes of the basic concept advocated by the opposition, as it has no universal application and is a minor bandage for a bleeding wound. I guess we can deal with each missing god piecemeal with hand-waving if we want, but I doubt the existing ones could stand up to the same stern examination. How many people have seen Luukos and lived to tell about it?
Since I'm not the OP, I have no real vested interest here. Seeing the CONVERT list expanded, considering the universe, and game, has otherwise grown so much since the ICE age 20 years ago, is not a bad proposal at heart. Mostly one needs what is likely several GMs to step up to the task, and the most probable answer is relevance and time constraints. (I know I keep saying that but, in actual fact we can argue until we're blue in the face, yet staff time is the most likely issue at stake and we ought to agree on simple facts like there gods that are MIA. "They are missing because they are dead!" Sure okay...did I mention the words 'fantasy' or 'god' yet?)
We could definitely get one guru on board perhaps (I have no one in mind, really), say to design the lore and some flashy versions for the two relevant spell circles. But then we need another guru to do the same. And at least one mechanics one to implement.
I'm definitely in favor but, to be frank, the larger problem is that CONVERT does largely jack for most people. This is certainly an issue that ties in to that discussion very closely, but how to make conversion relevant for 90% of the population (when you can RP whatever you want most the time without converting) is, to me, a much more serious issue to resolve.
Why care what gods the game lets you select when selecting a god mechanically means about piddly doo? After all, no one posting on this thread is discussing characters that are paladins or clerics! (I have one but it has no bearing here.)
I think that, in this case, it behooves us as players to, at the least, band behind the point that the gods and CONVERT list are clearly out of touch with the game advances and are stuck in the past. Otherwise I guess I'll fork the thread with krolvin deities I have no personal interest in to see you on the flip side with arguments that are dead in the water, just like L'Naere.
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SARAH3
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 04:00 PM CDT
>According to Braedn, who led the aelotoi into Elanthia, they did not know whether L'Naere really existed at all, or was merely a legend. The goddess apparently disappeared long before the kiramon arrival.
At some point, I did read all the Aelotoi lore available on the official page, but it was not recently. Do you have a link for that point?
Additionally, if that is the case, why does the forum post archived by Tsoran in 2006 (which I linked upthread) begin:
>By the word of the Aelotoi Elders at a recent town meeting in Cysaegir, the traditional worship of L'Naere will continue to be fostered and encouraged for all of their people.
If the worship of L'Naere was discontinued while on Bre'Naere, why was it traditional to worship her and why did the early aelotoi not have the option of converting to any of the other Arkati until 2006? There were two or three years where the aelotoi could not convert to the Arkati (or be clerics/paladins) because they worshiped L'Naere. Like, the aelotoi were barred from some professions because they were assumed to be worshiping a different god(dess) instead of just happily picking up whatever religions were around in their new home.
This is also quite different from the idea of converting to atheism since there is at least some reason to believe that the aelotoi have worshiped L'Naere traditionally and on an ongoing basis (even if it's in the form of an old news announcement). Whether or not she is dead, alive or never existed shouldn't really matter. This is a religion in a fantasy game we're talking about.
>Someone just finished reading American Gods, no?
...yes. And I think it's totally a valid mechanism for importing gods (although at one point L'Naere would have been an Arkati, she was just cast out for being a traitor so it would be sort of a re-import of a deity).
I do agree that L'Naere probably isn't an option because it's going to be a lot of work (especially if one wanted to include the Krolvin gods as well or I don't know if the Erithians have their own gods) and I know that it doesn't really do anything for most characters in the game to formally convert (since one can RP whatever beliefs they want). However, it's definitely something that's pretty blatantly incomplete, probably for historical reasons. I don't get the point of including pantheons or patron gods for newer races when one's character cannot worship them. I mean, when people immigrate to a new place, they don't drop their old religions in less than a generation. Most people don't change their religion after childhood. I'm not sure why all the aelotoi would either convert to a new religion or abandon their faith entirely just because they went to a new place.
I'm pretty sure that some players would actually appreciate this sort of option (e.g. I would definitely convert at least one of my characters to L'Naere if she was an option, just for the RP and I'm sure that other players of Aelotoi would do the same). Additionally, it seems like the GMs are also wondering why so many players are unconverted (or at least one of them wondered last year). Perhaps allowing more options for conversion would encourage more people to convert.
At some point, I did read all the Aelotoi lore available on the official page, but it was not recently. Do you have a link for that point?
Additionally, if that is the case, why does the forum post archived by Tsoran in 2006 (which I linked upthread) begin:
>By the word of the Aelotoi Elders at a recent town meeting in Cysaegir, the traditional worship of L'Naere will continue to be fostered and encouraged for all of their people.
If the worship of L'Naere was discontinued while on Bre'Naere, why was it traditional to worship her and why did the early aelotoi not have the option of converting to any of the other Arkati until 2006? There were two or three years where the aelotoi could not convert to the Arkati (or be clerics/paladins) because they worshiped L'Naere. Like, the aelotoi were barred from some professions because they were assumed to be worshiping a different god(dess) instead of just happily picking up whatever religions were around in their new home.
This is also quite different from the idea of converting to atheism since there is at least some reason to believe that the aelotoi have worshiped L'Naere traditionally and on an ongoing basis (even if it's in the form of an old news announcement). Whether or not she is dead, alive or never existed shouldn't really matter. This is a religion in a fantasy game we're talking about.
>Someone just finished reading American Gods, no?
...yes. And I think it's totally a valid mechanism for importing gods (although at one point L'Naere would have been an Arkati, she was just cast out for being a traitor so it would be sort of a re-import of a deity).
I do agree that L'Naere probably isn't an option because it's going to be a lot of work (especially if one wanted to include the Krolvin gods as well or I don't know if the Erithians have their own gods) and I know that it doesn't really do anything for most characters in the game to formally convert (since one can RP whatever beliefs they want). However, it's definitely something that's pretty blatantly incomplete, probably for historical reasons. I don't get the point of including pantheons or patron gods for newer races when one's character cannot worship them. I mean, when people immigrate to a new place, they don't drop their old religions in less than a generation. Most people don't change their religion after childhood. I'm not sure why all the aelotoi would either convert to a new religion or abandon their faith entirely just because they went to a new place.
I'm pretty sure that some players would actually appreciate this sort of option (e.g. I would definitely convert at least one of my characters to L'Naere if she was an option, just for the RP and I'm sure that other players of Aelotoi would do the same). Additionally, it seems like the GMs are also wondering why so many players are unconverted (or at least one of them wondered last year). Perhaps allowing more options for conversion would encourage more people to convert.
JADZIABLUE
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 04:11 PM CDT
>Perhaps allowing more options for conversion would encourage more people to convert.
Just playing devil's advocate here.
I actually like that a lot of people aren't converted. Elanthia is, ultimately, full of polytheistic societies. People devoting themselves specifically to one deity is something that probably would be fairly uncommon outside of the clergy. In some ways, I really wish the GMs would do more to encourage polytheistic behavior and not make pigeonholing the norm. Pray to Oleani for love, pray to Imaera to make your garden grow, pray to Mularos to take your pain away.
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
Just playing devil's advocate here.
I actually like that a lot of people aren't converted. Elanthia is, ultimately, full of polytheistic societies. People devoting themselves specifically to one deity is something that probably would be fairly uncommon outside of the clergy. In some ways, I really wish the GMs would do more to encourage polytheistic behavior and not make pigeonholing the norm. Pray to Oleani for love, pray to Imaera to make your garden grow, pray to Mularos to take your pain away.
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
UBERWENCH
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 04:48 PM CDT
>In some ways, I really wish the GMs would do more to encourage polytheistic behavior and not make pigeonholing the norm. Pray to Oleani for love, pray to Imaera to make your garden grow, pray to Mularos to take your pain away.
I wholeheartedly agree! Now that I think about it, it's kind of strange that we don't have more people who pray to different gods for different reasons. Most characters choose one of the Arkati to worship and pretty much ignores the others, but you're right -- it doesn't have to be that way. The idea of a god for every purpose is an appealing one.
I wholeheartedly agree! Now that I think about it, it's kind of strange that we don't have more people who pray to different gods for different reasons. Most characters choose one of the Arkati to worship and pretty much ignores the others, but you're right -- it doesn't have to be that way. The idea of a god for every purpose is an appealing one.
ZHOUY1
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 04:59 PM CDT
>At some point, I did read all the Aelotoi lore available on the official page, but it was not recently. Do you have a link for that point?
It was copied over to the wiki here:
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/A_Brief_History_of_the_Aelotoi
My speculation is that they continued to worship L'Naere as a matter of tradition after her disappearance, but stopped getting any magical powers from doing so. Still, worship continued during the millenia of enslavement, maybe because it fostered a sense of community and identity, and maybe it gave them hope that one day she would return to save them. The Cysaegir elders' decision to allow free worship of other Arkati was a very practical one: to give their people access to valuable magic such as resurrection which they would not otherwise have by exclusively worshiping an absent goddess.
>This is a religion in a fantasy game we're talking about.
Speaking of games, the situation actually reminds me of the Dragon Age setting, where the elves used to have gods, but their gods disappeared, their people were enslaved, and their knowledge forgotten. When they finally won their freedom some of them went back to their traditional worship, except the legends that filtered down through history had become very much twisted and they had little idea of what their gods actually were.
It was copied over to the wiki here:
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/A_Brief_History_of_the_Aelotoi
My speculation is that they continued to worship L'Naere as a matter of tradition after her disappearance, but stopped getting any magical powers from doing so. Still, worship continued during the millenia of enslavement, maybe because it fostered a sense of community and identity, and maybe it gave them hope that one day she would return to save them. The Cysaegir elders' decision to allow free worship of other Arkati was a very practical one: to give their people access to valuable magic such as resurrection which they would not otherwise have by exclusively worshiping an absent goddess.
>This is a religion in a fantasy game we're talking about.
Speaking of games, the situation actually reminds me of the Dragon Age setting, where the elves used to have gods, but their gods disappeared, their people were enslaved, and their knowledge forgotten. When they finally won their freedom some of them went back to their traditional worship, except the legends that filtered down through history had become very much twisted and they had little idea of what their gods actually were.
DMWCINCY
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 05:15 PM CDT
Pup openly wears symbols of both imaera and kuon. He also gives thanks to other gods for various reasons. While an imaerite he does not strictly pray or give thanks to just her. It should be up to the player and not game mechanics to determine diety rp. Dont let game mechanics hold back rp.
JARHEAD
Re: L'Naere
04/21/2015 05:41 PM CDT
When Radeek prays, and he prays quite frequently, a lot of times it's to Goseana, even though he's spiritually aligned to Phoen and does spend a LOT of time in Phoen's temple in Solhaven (in his opinion the only good thing in Solhaven besides Pasha's). He has also prayed to most of the Liabo Arkati, and even occasionally to one or more of the Lornon Arkati at one time or another. He prays with selective purpose, thinking that to have your prayer answered it helps the ask the appropriate Arkati. Unlike some Tehir Radeek believes in all the Arkati fervently, even though he thinks that most of the time they don't give two hoots about us, unless they want something from us. He also almost never prays for himself, it's nearly always for others.
Follow Pup's advice and RP it the way you see fit. As long as you are consistent within the lore and consistent in your characters portrayal of that lore then I don't see any issues with it.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Follow Pup's advice and RP it the way you see fit. As long as you are consistent within the lore and consistent in your characters portrayal of that lore then I don't see any issues with it.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
INIQUITY
Re: L'Naere
04/22/2015 02:17 AM CDT
I'm inclined to interpret it the same way as ZHOUY1. At the moment I have two characters who "worship" the Ur-Daemon in some fashion. One is aligned to "Other", the other is set to "Marlu." They do not know they have split alignments. It is based on a theological disagreement, even though they claim to swear fealty to the same religion. In principle I would see nothing wrong with someone saying IC they believe their power comes from L'Naere, but whether it is actually true depends on whether it is possible for L'Naere to be channeling power through them.
Similarly, the half-krolvin gods may just be the same moon gods as ours, expressed with other metaphors. In theory there could be many dead Arkati from the Ur-Daemon War.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
Similarly, the half-krolvin gods may just be the same moon gods as ours, expressed with other metaphors. In theory there could be many dead Arkati from the Ur-Daemon War.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
DAID
Re: L'Naere
04/22/2015 06:04 AM CDT
>>Perhaps allowing more options for conversion would encourage more people to convert.
>Just playing devil's advocate here.
>I actually like that a lot of people aren't converted. Elanthia is, ultimately, full of polytheistic societies.
To the first point: it might, and it might not. It would surely get a few more CONVERTs but I think the heart of the issue is that, besides a few boons, it doesn't do much mechanically and it is difficult to undo.
I don't entirely agree with the second point, but I don't disgree, either. My main has gone through at least four different worshipping stages, particularly in the earlier years when I was still playing with his backstory and figuring him out. One of those was a neutral pantheon, one was a Lornon, and two are Liabo. I only converted at the end when I really felt that I knew which one was for him (Imaera). Lately I've been wondering if Niima might be more appropriate, but my main thought he has good reasons to worship both Imaera and Niima, so he's a sort of polytheist. This definitely is in a basic agreement with the point above, since it is a polytheistic society, and it's actually pretty normal for a character to have more than one patron god or spirit, yet we can only choose one. He has a couple items which are symbols of Imaera, and I'm thinking to get some things more themed for Niima next (though the custom spell prep for a sailor's ditty and a couple mermaid's tear sapphires here and there is already a hint).
I'm not sure the benefits or use of letting players convert to more than one deity/spirit. Definitely for certain kinds of things (paladins and clerics especially, but also for 340, Voln armor, etc) the character probably needs a main conversion (otherwise I mean, every person using Voln armor would add Voln as a patron...though I'm not sure if this is a bad thing).
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>Just playing devil's advocate here.
>I actually like that a lot of people aren't converted. Elanthia is, ultimately, full of polytheistic societies.
To the first point: it might, and it might not. It would surely get a few more CONVERTs but I think the heart of the issue is that, besides a few boons, it doesn't do much mechanically and it is difficult to undo.
I don't entirely agree with the second point, but I don't disgree, either. My main has gone through at least four different worshipping stages, particularly in the earlier years when I was still playing with his backstory and figuring him out. One of those was a neutral pantheon, one was a Lornon, and two are Liabo. I only converted at the end when I really felt that I knew which one was for him (Imaera). Lately I've been wondering if Niima might be more appropriate, but my main thought he has good reasons to worship both Imaera and Niima, so he's a sort of polytheist. This definitely is in a basic agreement with the point above, since it is a polytheistic society, and it's actually pretty normal for a character to have more than one patron god or spirit, yet we can only choose one. He has a couple items which are symbols of Imaera, and I'm thinking to get some things more themed for Niima next (though the custom spell prep for a sailor's ditty and a couple mermaid's tear sapphires here and there is already a hint).
I'm not sure the benefits or use of letting players convert to more than one deity/spirit. Definitely for certain kinds of things (paladins and clerics especially, but also for 340, Voln armor, etc) the character probably needs a main conversion (otherwise I mean, every person using Voln armor would add Voln as a patron...though I'm not sure if this is a bad thing).
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INIQUITY
Re: L'Naere
04/23/2015 02:52 AM CDT
For what it is worth, I was less than thrilled when the CONVERT verb was added with only a single setting, as my demon worshippers regard a few of the malevolent despots in the Lornon pantheon as patrons. It seems to me that spiritual magic does not need the gods in general, because there are potentially many other "lesser spirits" and sources of channeled power in the background. There would be nothing wrong with using different deities for various circumstances. Clerics and paladins are different, especially with the powerful spells.
There was old lore that deities were at least subconsciously aware of what their followers were doing using their power, and that if you were really out of line in your god's name it could provoke some unwanted attention. I do not know how valid that is these days. Getting "forsaken" by a god does not sound unreasonable.
One concept that has really atrophied over the past twenty years is the idea of a "local god", whose range is centered on a focus of power in the same way Greater Elementals are described now (which you can also worship but not convert.) When the cleric is outside of the range of their deity they would be completely powerless. You can imagine how popular that would be if it worked that way mechanically. The idea was that a local deity would be much more directly accessible, as opposed to the few gods with a global reach. Gosaena was an "evil local goddess" for a few years, thought to have been more powerful in the past, before being re-written into her Ebon Gate role. Though the legends still preserve the idea of gods becoming more and less powerful over time.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
There was old lore that deities were at least subconsciously aware of what their followers were doing using their power, and that if you were really out of line in your god's name it could provoke some unwanted attention. I do not know how valid that is these days. Getting "forsaken" by a god does not sound unreasonable.
One concept that has really atrophied over the past twenty years is the idea of a "local god", whose range is centered on a focus of power in the same way Greater Elementals are described now (which you can also worship but not convert.) When the cleric is outside of the range of their deity they would be completely powerless. You can imagine how popular that would be if it worked that way mechanically. The idea was that a local deity would be much more directly accessible, as opposed to the few gods with a global reach. Gosaena was an "evil local goddess" for a few years, thought to have been more powerful in the past, before being re-written into her Ebon Gate role. Though the legends still preserve the idea of gods becoming more and less powerful over time.
- Xorus' player
>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"
