This post is really a question about the limits of role playing. I understand that players are given a significant amount of leeway in regards to developing backstory, but I am curious for my own characters sake how far and what those limits are.

To provide a little bit of context, I have recently returned to the game and basically everyone I used to know does not play anymore. Ta’Vaalor has changed quite a bit and I’ve basically decided to re-write my character’s history. Part of that history includes having read about Elven philosophy/history/theology.

Here is my conundrum: the Elanthian pantheon is, shall we say, limited. Here on Earth, in terms of the ancient world’s scope, there was a basically a deity for everything. I can understand from a game design perspective why that is untenable Elanthia, but I still feel as there are still facets of our lived experience that are not covered by the pantheon (for example there’s no god of wine).

So here is my question: would I be within the bounds of the game if I were to make up some highly obscure Elven philosopher-scholar who wrote about deities that are not officially recognized? How set in stone is the cosmology? Is there any difference of opinion among Elven scholars on cosmology?

Does any of this make sense?

I would recommend doing some homework before writing your own deity document. Lots of homework. Because the Elanthian pantheon is pretty large and covers a great deal many ideologies. Additionally, there are several lesser known spirits that represent certain ideologies in the game, specific to a certain region and whatnot. I think you would be surprised at what you might discover with a little bit of due diligence.

Why? Because then your beliefs, your RP, can be supported by the game - rather than you waiting for that one day when the carpet is pulled out from underneath you and you have to start all over again.

You're going to do the work anyway, one way or the other. Think of all the unnamed shrines and altars throughout Elanthia, even just the areas we can traverse. I can think of one in Icemule, west side of town, the one for Illoke outside of the Stronghold. These are for lesser known, but recognized "gods" that someone felt was worthy of worship and maybe your character will, too.

The other thing to consider is that Elves do not really worship in the traditional/Western/Human Empire sense. Lifespan wise, Elves are practically Immortal anyway, so they look to the Arkati and Spirits as Patrons, not so much bending the knee. Traditionally speaking, which is what you are more likely to find in the Elven Nations.

Anyway.. yes, you can do whatever you want ... but if you find a way to insert yourself into the incredible depth and lore that already exists, I think, in the long term, you will find yourself more satisfied and have more RP opportunities.

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~ Bill, Coyote.
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

Thanks for replying, all.

There seems to be some sort of consensus among you that can be summed up in this:
>Do your homework
I feel like I have done my homework. I've already read (and re-read, and re-read again) all the deity documentation on play.net and, in my opinion, I think it's shallow. It gives us a feel for the deities themselves, but I just think it's lacking in mythology. If you can provide other resources or show me where in game I can learn more, I'd be grateful.

>The other thing to consider is that Elves do not really worship in the traditional/Western/Human Empire sense. Lifespan wise, Elves are practically Immortal anyway, so they look to the Arkati and Spirits as Patrons, not so much bending the knee. Traditionally speaking, which is what you are more likely to find in the Elven Nations.
I'm quite aware of this, and plan on incorporating this into my story.

None of this really answers my question:
>Is there any difference of opinion among Elven scholars on cosmology?
>How set in stone is the cosmology?

I could understand if there is basically little to no variation among Elven scholars on theology/cosmology for the following reasons: 1) The Arkati most definitely are involved in "Earthly-matters" and the believers of Elanthia have access to direct revelation. 2) As was already stated, Elves live for a long time, and, as I suppose is possible, are not subject the radical shifts in philosophy/theology that have happened here on Earth. My problem with the two points above is as follow: how does this imply a static theology/cosmology? In regards to 1), the Arkati are not the self-existent, immutable Christian/Islamic/Jewish God. They certainly change and react to the world; they even seem to fear their own deaths (see http://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/deities/gosaena.asp). In regards to 2), it just doesn't seem in the character of the Elves to have a static theology/cosmology. Given the Illistim and Faendryl's love of knowledge, I think there would most definitely be a rigorous philosophical tradition.

I basically want to know if I write my own stuff if I will be going completely off the map or is this kind of variance deemed acceptable (or even encouraged) within Elven society?


You may be asking yourself, why does he want to know? The answer to that is this: I want to keep my story close to the chest right now because I am still developing it. I am trying to mimic something in literature, but tweaked for an Elf in the Elven Nations. I also don't want to play an insane character. Maybe one that is seen as batty by others? Sure, but not actually insane.

>How much leeway am I to be given before I wander off into heresy?

Thoughts?

Thanks again.

-ahchoo4u

>I basically want to know if I write my own stuff if I will be going completely off the map or is this kind of variance deemed acceptable (or even encouraged) within Elven society? . . . How much leeway am I to be given before I wander off into heresy? - AHCHOO4U

There is certainly considerable difference of opinion on theology (or atheology, to be more precise?) amongst the Elves of Elanthia. Disagreements about the nature of the Arkati and Elvenkind's relationship to them are there in the earliest history, and still there present day. Views wholly at variance with the orthodoxy would probably be unwelcome, in my view, but not entirely unusual, so there's no fundamental problem there.

What sorts of problems you may encounter would depend on exactly what you were attempting to bring forward. You mentioned arguing for the existence of gods not previously recognized... Setting aside that most Elves do not regard Arkati as 'gods' per se, that shouldn't be an insurmountable problem in and of itself. Heck, some of the stuff you see in official docs today was pure invention by players that got adopted and incorporated into the game, but I'd just be very careful how you go about it. Because of the nature of the Arkati, how they were 'born' or created, how few of them there are, and how long they have been interacting with Elanthian - and particularly Elven - society, you would have an immensely hard time convincing my character that there was a full Arkati of whom he had never heard. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but you'd face IC dismissal by a lot of PCs because of how fully involved the Arkati are in the world.

Full-blown Arkati descended from the age of the Drakes are not your only option for expanding the Elanthian mythoi, though, and probably not the best one. There is pretty solid evidence for Arkati mating with humanoid races and producing 'lesser spirits' as offspring, for example, and that would probably be easier to get away with than claiming to know of an original Arkati no one had ever heard of before. Just be aware of the basic problem you're likely to encounter: explaining why, in a world where the 'gods' are constantly sticking their manifest noses into our lives, no one has ever seen, heard of or talked to your new god before.

Make sure you come up with a good answer to that question first, then have fun with the rest.

Dave, Brandain's Bard

>I think one difference to consider might be... In Elanthia, the gods are REAL. ...They fill the roles that are suited to them as individuals, rather than filling the roles the people of Elanthia might need.

I think this is a good point, but the fact still remains that Elanthia is NOT real. In a meta sense, the gods of Elanthia serve the function of creating a backdrop, of creating a believable world in which it is fun to Role Play. They may serve other functions as well, but from a game design perspective, that should be their primary function.

>They fill the roles that are suited to them as individuals, rather than filling the roles the people of Elanthia might need.
As a side note, are we as players getting the objective, third-person view of the Arkati? Could the mythology in place be that from the perspective of the Elves? From some other entity? Are the Arkati filling the roles that are imposed upon them by the priests of Elanthia for their own ends? These are all the kinds of questions I ask myself when I read the lore.

I think the real thrust of your point is this:
>Why do all facets of life need to be explained by the religions of Elanthia?
This is an excellent question (if I do say so myself) and may point an anachronistic belief I am bringing into my RP, namely that, here on Earth, polytheistic religions that possess a pantheon typically tried to explain all aspects of life through that pantheon. Maybe assuming that religion should explain everything in GSIV is anachronistic and is incorrect, I don't know.

However, the more compelling worldview is once that includes a mythology that explains all of life, not just part of it. But, from the game designer's perspective, this is nigh impossible. It's one thing in a table top role playing game where the GM can just dismiss or explain any question presented to him, but in a game like GSIV? Ugh, I can't even imagine what that would be like. For its part, I think the cosmology has sufficient explanatory power to RP in, but I think that the polytheism is rather lacking. That's just my opinion, however.

For my own part, I'd like to add my own take on it and add to the story, but I don't want to force anachronisms into the world that don't belong and break suspension of disbelief.

-ahchoo4u

>>What sorts of problems you may encounter would depend on exactly what you were attempting to bring forward. You mentioned arguing for the existence of gods not previously recognized... Setting aside that most Elves do not regard Arkati as 'gods' per se, that shouldn't be an insurmountable problem in and of itself. Heck, some of the stuff you see in official docs today was pure invention by players that got adopted and incorporated into the game, but I'd just be very careful how you go about it. Because of the nature of the Arkati, how they were 'born' or created, how few of them there are, and how long they have been interacting with Elanthian - and particularly Elven - society, you would have an immensely hard time convincing my character that there was a full Arkati of whom he had never heard. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but you'd face IC dismissal by a lot of PCs because of how fully involved the Arkati are in the world.<<

Agreed. Unless you came across someone like my character who doesn't concern herself with the Arkati and doesn't know the difference between Niima and Charl. :) But I think she's in the minority on that.

In my opinion, when it comes to talk of cosmology and theology, you have a lot more wiggle room to develop and play with it within the game. As mentioned above, I'm not sure how will received your character would be if they showed up and started talking about some new Arkati no one has ever heard of. BUT, I think it also depends on how you RP and deliver it. Packaging a new deity up in theology from an Elven scholar, I think, would be more acceptable than your character actually actively following said deity.

When it comes down to it, I try to think of the documentation as a backbone of the World our characters live in and it's up to us as the players to fill it and make it grow.

~Kayse

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Kaldonis sniffs at his tube of glue.

You try hard not to grin.

Speaking to Kaldonis, you say, "That explains a lot..."

Astru giggles.

Speaking softly to you, Astru says, "It really does."

You stare at nothing in particular.

>>As a side note, are we as players getting the objective, third-person view of the Arkati?

Thuunk and Clunk treat stories of the Arkati as they would tales of any other character in Elanthia. What you hear, depends on who you talk to. When you Really care, go find the character (or Arkati) in question and ask them. If they consider you to be worthy of talking to, they will talk to you. If not, they (both other player run characters and NPCs) will treat you like fleas.



Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)

As to what I originally said

>>Do your homework

The reply:

>I feel like I have done my homework. I've already read (and re-read, and re-read again) all the deity documentation on play.net and, in my opinion, I think it's shallow. It gives us a feel for the deities themselves, but I just think it's lacking in mythology. If you can provide other resources or show me where in game I can learn more, I'd be grateful.

And something I'm stealing from Scribes:

>This kind of sounds harsh, and that's not my intention, but I want to just make it clear that there's a lot of room in Gemstone to roleplay creative ideas and backgrounds

Anyway, I definitely didn't mean to say that in the way to suggest you hadn't been reading up on lore or trying to do some research. It's mostly like, if you are relatively well-versed in the basic background of the game, then you should pretty much be fine. And as far as backstories or alternate religions etc, as long as there's no massive conflict with existing lore, you're pretty much off the hook! And even if there are a few sticky points with your backstory, if you're aware of them, you'll at least have a canned reply to anyone who questions you. Usually that's a good conversation starter, and I'll surprise myself sometimes inventing things about my backstory on the fly when talking to someone.

I totally agree the actual pages on the given Arkati are fairly sparse. But there's a lot of documentation buried all around, and the topics rarely have too much tunnel vision (that is to say, you can find unexpected topics scattered in all different subjects of lore). But where to find the existing lore that you can find a way to connect your character to, that's a very difficult point to advise on! Keep digging I guess...

I really want to put together an even attempted "comprehensive" Lore e-book at some point. But it's safe to say that's no less than 6 months in the future, likely longer.

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>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."