ENCELADAN
Impotence.
11/09/2011 08:51 AM CST
Don't worry, this isn't an advertisement for cheap prescriptions from Canada. Rather, it's a sort of compilation of musings that I've been noticing, and I can't say I really like the trends that I'm noticing.
To start, I'll point out what I already see and identify as the single point that completely undermines and renders any argument I make to be void. And that, quite simply, is the need for plot forwarding. More on that in a bit.
The "meat" of this is that I can't think of very many instances of Liabo ever actively taking part in resolving an issue or fixing a problem that can, and should be well within their influence and power to resolve.
Conversely, there are all too many examples of Luukos or others acting openly, without repurcussion, and clearly succeeding at everything they do. (This isn't a rant about their followers being able to act openly without consequence, though that is also an issue.)
An example is the return of Morvule. I have a real problem with the idea that the Liabo Arkati did squat to stop it, given that Nershuul was doing stuff for years to bring it about.
Another example I'll cite won't have as many details, since it's part of something ubresolved. Suffice to say, Lornon was asked to fix something after Liabo couldn't (or wouldn't) and they did. Not for free, but still.
As I said earlier, I know the reason: plot demands certain things. There has to be noticeable, clear occasions where Lornon gets an obvious triumph.
My problem? There are too many occasions where Liabo just ignores these things. Sometimes we get help in the form of a proxy (Ulstram, Chaeye, etc.) but when you stack the two and measure, Lornon always seems to be the one with the upper hand.
THAT WE CAN SEE.
I doubt that Ronan and Voln have Predator drones flying over Sheruukostan ready to launch Hellfire missiles at Dark Alliance extremists who poke their heads up from their caves, but I do know that since the world is so big and things are happening elsewhere, what we end up seeing with Lornon is the rare success, when all the counter efforts fail and something gets through.
So with that said, it would be nice to actually SEE some comparative successes, whether it be through rites, news, or something else entirely that could be used as propoganda or as shining examples of direct action on the part of Liabo. I don't mean a commune iwhere a few words are spoken and everyone resorts to the near-caricature response of "Our faith is strong, we will endure because they watch."
Forget watching and talking. I want to see direct action. I want to see something that leaves a mark, so we actually have a justification for our characters to continue believing that Liabo isn't impotent when it comes to countering Lornon.
As it stands, recent events and storylines haven't been offering much to challenge the image that Liabo is powerless to do much except gawk when bad things happen, and pray about it.
I guess that does raise another point. Luukos can take souls, Sheru drives insanity. What sort of things could Liabo do to directly act and fight in a similar fashion? Inquisitions perhaps, but that's a bit of a slippery road. I guess I'm wondering what, since it's not the Liabo MO to practice human sacrifice, Liabo could do to strike fear into Lornon, and have an equivalent impact to enrage or otherwise hurt and demoralize.
Because otherwise, I think Liabo is dysfunctional, and needs something to cure it. And it's hard to continue playing a character who believes, but keeps seeing indifference and inaction from their patron when challenged.
Sorry for the length of this post (not really, though.) This had been on my mind for a bit, and I guess some instances in the past few days finally broke my silence.
-Aydan, player of
VT-JSARIA
Re: Impotence.
11/09/2011 05:55 PM CST
>And it's hard to continue playing a character who believes, but keeps seeing indifference and inaction from their patron when challenged.
Curiously, Godefroy regards that as an article of faith. As long as Liabo doesn't HAVE to step in, things aren't really all that bad. They aren't the first line of defense; we are. Whether they would notice and/or care if we lost - in most cases, maybe not in the current plotline - is up for debate.
Personally, I view it more as us being barely pawns of the Arkati. Whatever schemes they have, we would contribute in such a minuscule fashion it is almost a non-issue. Lorminstra doesn't need our help, on the whole, to do her thing. Our assistance doesn't really do much more than point a spotlight.
Luukos and Sheru, however, can actually benefit directly (ie, feed off the results of) from our efforts. Ronan and Kai, maybe not as much. Thus we are more likely to see action from Luukosians and Sheruvians.
That said, a society that tends to value the tenets of Liabo over Lornon is, on the whole, more likely to be stable, healthy, and prosperous. The Empire is an example of that - Liabo is winning, on the balance. Thus, there is less need for action from agents of Liabo, because society as a whole is faring okay.
~Godefroy
Morvule hisses, "Ssssally ssssellssss sssseashellssss by the sssseasssshore."
Curiously, Godefroy regards that as an article of faith. As long as Liabo doesn't HAVE to step in, things aren't really all that bad. They aren't the first line of defense; we are. Whether they would notice and/or care if we lost - in most cases, maybe not in the current plotline - is up for debate.
Personally, I view it more as us being barely pawns of the Arkati. Whatever schemes they have, we would contribute in such a minuscule fashion it is almost a non-issue. Lorminstra doesn't need our help, on the whole, to do her thing. Our assistance doesn't really do much more than point a spotlight.
Luukos and Sheru, however, can actually benefit directly (ie, feed off the results of) from our efforts. Ronan and Kai, maybe not as much. Thus we are more likely to see action from Luukosians and Sheruvians.
That said, a society that tends to value the tenets of Liabo over Lornon is, on the whole, more likely to be stable, healthy, and prosperous. The Empire is an example of that - Liabo is winning, on the balance. Thus, there is less need for action from agents of Liabo, because society as a whole is faring okay.
~Godefroy
Morvule hisses, "Ssssally ssssellssss sssseashellssss by the sssseasssshore."
SIWAS
Re: Impotence.
11/09/2011 06:06 PM CST
>Lorminstra doesn't need our help, on the whole, to do her thing.
As the player of a devout Lorminstran, I think my main irritation is the current trend to trivialize her role in what comes after death and put all the focus on Gosaena. Scribes's [censored] document on the humans' perspective of religion undercutting Lorminstra even more didn't do much to help that. (Thanks, Scribes.)
--
You quietly whisper to Tolomyn, "I would like 'an unpretentious albugineous rumchunder dress whorled with chrysochlorous penniform arabesques', please."
>
You gaze hopefully at Tolomyn.
>
Tolomyn stares at you.
As the player of a devout Lorminstran, I think my main irritation is the current trend to trivialize her role in what comes after death and put all the focus on Gosaena. Scribes's [censored] document on the humans' perspective of religion undercutting Lorminstra even more didn't do much to help that. (Thanks, Scribes.)
--
You quietly whisper to Tolomyn, "I would like 'an unpretentious albugineous rumchunder dress whorled with chrysochlorous penniform arabesques', please."
>
You gaze hopefully at Tolomyn.
>
Tolomyn stares at you.
WOLFES2
Re: Impotence.
11/10/2011 09:29 AM CST
I don't have any answers but I would go so far as to say I agree quite a bit with where he is going with this topic. Miracles and efforts should take part on both sides of the pantheonic coin, as it were. This could be one of those instances where the player needs this as much or more than the character.
I'm unsure as to the direct influences and examples that Aydan speaks, but I'd like to see a bit more smiting and Old Testament types of action. I get the whole faith business but in a realm where the "gods" actually do have a hand in events, that hand that is much more likely to be seen is Lornon's.
~Galenok
I'm unsure as to the direct influences and examples that Aydan speaks, but I'd like to see a bit more smiting and Old Testament types of action. I get the whole faith business but in a realm where the "gods" actually do have a hand in events, that hand that is much more likely to be seen is Lornon's.
~Galenok
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: Impotence.
11/10/2011 04:35 PM CST
<<Scribes's [censored] document on the humans' perspective of religion undercutting Lorminstra even more didn't do much to help that. (Thanks, Scribes.)
No problem.
GM Scribes
No problem.
GM Scribes
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: Impotence.
11/10/2011 04:44 PM CST
In regard to the original post in this thread, it certainly can be frustrating to play a character whose faith isn't nearly as supported as others in perceived actions of Lornon/Liabo. My own advice, while it is well worth the time to make a note to GMs to request more participation, is to take your character and look for the miracles in the everyday. I'm not saying, "Wow, the milk is on the table, blessed be the action of Lorminstra!" Rather, see the events that go against X god as evidence of your god's reach into the Elanthian world. "Oh? Luukos' servants didn't win the battle, surely Voln himself guided the defenders!"
Is it more fun to have Voln or Volny powers pop up and kick lizard bowing butt....sure. But this is a viable path for the faithful. ;)
GM Scribes
Is it more fun to have Voln or Volny powers pop up and kick lizard bowing butt....sure. But this is a viable path for the faithful. ;)
GM Scribes
SCRAPPERK
Re: Impotence.
11/10/2011 05:50 PM CST
I had a super post yesterday when this was first started and deleted it. Now coming back to the thread again, I have a new ideology.
Let's say we do agree that what happens is mostly below Liabo's notice, or concern. I can buy that. However, it seems to me, that you know, every once in a while a Liabo-ite would happen to glance in our direction and say WTHeck! -Insert lightning bolt for effect- issue not neccesarily resolved, but definately a sign of 'I saw that!' for our loyal Liabo followers to build upon.
~
UPDATE: He's still good ole Grishom Stone.
ENCELADAN
Re: Impotence.
11/10/2011 06:32 PM CST
THE PROBLEM AS I SEE IT...
... is that so many of our characters aren't operating on the basis of faith anymore. Faith requires the unseen, unreasoned belief that just because we don't see it day to day, we know their presence is there and all that good stuff.
However, that doesn't take into account how many times that we actually do see the Arkati. Or hear them, or see an actual influence that doesn't have to be inferred. When you've had Lumnis come down and talk to you a few times, or you've had Voln give you a pep talk, seen and heard Lorminstra a couple of times, seen and heard Koar once, or you've seen Oleani healing people who have been cursed (this is all stuff that's happened in the last two years, either to my character or when he's been present to witness it) you don't really have to have a child's faith anymore, because you've been validated that on some level, you exist and you matter.
It's not like faith and religion in the real world, where nothing other than personal faith is going to give any sort of proof or evidence (I use the word lightly) that the divine exists.
Furthermore, I don't think there's really a need to alert a GM about the whole religion thing. It's without a doubt the single largest, most prominent form of roleplay in the game, second only to racial tension.
Therefore, I think the issue is that there's a bit of inequality in the actual physical presence, the sort of thing that you can point out, without any doubt at all, that (insert Liabo Arkati here) actually did this. No inference, no faith needed, nothing short of clear and undisputable proof.
The sort of thing that Lornon gets far too often and Liabo doesn't in comparison, when it comes to the grand scheme of that unending war between the two pantheons. I'll grant that the general benevolence from Liabo would probably preclude most offensive efforts on their part (except for Ronan, Kai, Voln, Lorminstra, etc), but even then, we militant followers need something to rally behind.
That's what I would ask for. It's a matter of morale for we tireless few who have to fight these wars so the childlike faithful can continue having their milk granted by Lorminstra.
-A's player.
FIREPHOENIX
Re: Impotence.
11/14/2011 12:08 PM CST
I doubt that Ronan and Voln have Predator drones flying over Sheruukostan ready to launch Hellfire missiles at Dark Alliance extremists who poke their heads up from their caves....>>>
I have faith....that they do.
-Geijon
P.S. LOL
I have faith....that they do.
-Geijon
P.S. LOL
