May I just reiterate how UTTERLY %$#@ USELESS MFIRE IS?? I just suffered my annual "Oh hey, maybe MFIRE isn't as bad as I remember it" phase, with the added motivation of testing it with the new 506. My ranger has 20 air lore to get his longbow shots down to 1 second, so I figured I'd see how it interacted with MFIRE:

>mf

You reach for a bundle of wooden arrows and remove 2 of them.

>

With great haste, you let loose a volley of shots!

You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at a frost giant!

AS: +474 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +80 = +437

... and hit for 135 points of damage!

Well placed strike to back shatters vertebrae!

The frost giant is stunned!

You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.

The wooden arrow sticks in a frost giant's back!

You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +449 vs DS: +194 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +97 = +379

... and hit for 133 points of damage!

Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!

The arctic titan is stunned!

The wooden arrow sticks in an arctic titan's chest!

Roundtime: 8 sec.

Roundtime changed to 6 seconds.

You suddenly feel less light-footed and your feet take on a leaden quality.

Where to even start? For one, I normally fire my longbow with aimed shots in 3 seconds; why would unaimed shots take me 4 seconds each? So 8 seconds reduced to 6 seconds for 2 unaimed shots and then it ends the spell. Compare that to Celerity without the use of MFIRE over the same 6 second period:

>get 1 wood arrow from my quiver

fire

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +224 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +23 = +79

A clean miss.

The wooden arrow disappears into the local environs.

Roundtime: 3 sec.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.

>get 1 wood arrow from my quiver

fire

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +224 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +76 = +132

... and hit for 16 points of damage!

Well placed shot to the neck!

The arctic titan is stunned!

Necrotic energy from your skull-set ruic longbow overflows into you!

You feel energized!

The wooden arrow ricochets away from an arctic titan, landing nearby.

Roundtime: 3 sec.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.

>get 1 wood arrow from my quiver

fire

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +237 vs DS: +175 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +15 = +104

... and hit for 1 point of damage!

Thrust catches chin.

Leaves an impression but no cut.

You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.

Glancing shot. The wooden arrow flips over, landing behind an arctic titan.

Roundtime: 3 sec.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.

>get 1 wood arrow from my quiver

fire

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +224 vs DS: +175 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +90 = +166

... and hit for 33 points of damage!

Pierced through neck, a fine shot!

The wooden arrow sticks in an arctic titan's neck!

Roundtime: 3 sec.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.

>get 1 wood arrow from my quiver

fire

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +224 vs DS: +175 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +97 = +173

... and hit for 46 points of damage!

Well placed shot pierces knee, that hurt!

The arctic titan is knocked to the ground!

The wooden arrow sticks in an arctic titan's right leg!

Roundtime: 3 sec.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.

>get 1 wood arrow from my quiver

fire

You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.

>You nock a wooden arrow in your skull-set ruic longbow.

You fire a wooden arrow at an arctic titan!

AS: +224 vs DS: +142 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +77 = +186

... and hit for 50 points of damage!

Beautiful shot pierces skull! Amazing the arctic titan wasn't killed outright!

Necrotic energy from your skull-set ruic longbow overflows into you!

You feel energized!

The wooden arrow sticks in an arctic titan's head!

Roundtime: 3 sec.

Roundtime changed to 1 second.

6 aimed shots, with the potential to shoot 54 more, give or take, before the spell wears off.

I get that there are two separate issues at play here--MFIRE itself and 506 interaction with MFIRE/MSTRIKE compared to normal attacks--but 506 just further underlines the abject uselessness of MFIRE design. It's frustrating that literally the only combat maneuver specifically for archers has such negligible applicability. Is there any chance that MFIRE could be put on somebody's list for review?

Droit

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Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""

<MFIRE should be made a benefit of MoC and put on a free cooldown timer like MSTRIKE. Its RT should be reduced to a minimum threshold, provided you have the requisite strength. It should be able to shoot more arrows.

I agree. MFIRE should be a parallel of MSTRIKE, both learned through MOC with the same thresholds for open/focused targets. MTHROW, too.. once thrown weapons can be carried in bundles.

In other words, you can have MFIRE if you want all archers to be like monks. Be careful what you ask for.

Yeah, lets not draw too much attention to archery, guys.

>Yeah, lets not draw too much attention to archery, guys.

I presume you're saying that tongue-in-cheek. If not, let me assure you that the amount of discussion that players give such topics doesn't suddenly increase our awareness of them as if we weren't aware of them before.

>More to make light of the impression that what you guys think the playerbase wants isn't seemingly in line with reality. I think we've had all "nerf before we can make better" we can handle with the ELR.

It's more "long term health of the game" than "what we think the playerbase wants in the short term". That said, I said nothing about nerfing archery anytime soon. If other threads are to be believed -- including one that you're currently participating in, in another topic -- players prefer when we're upfront about things. And I'm being upfront about the fact that MFIRE pretty much sucks but that I don't anticipate making it into a ranged MSTRIKE equivalent and thus unambiguously upgrading archery, under its present state as compared to other physical combat styles.

>More to make light of the impression that what you guys think the playerbase wants isn't seemingly in line with reality. I think we've had all "nerf before we can make better" we can handle with the ELR.

It's more "long term health of the game" than "what we think the playerbase wants in the short term". That said, I said nothing about nerfing archery anytime soon. If other threads are to be believed -- including one that you're currently participating in, in another topic -- players prefer when we're upfront about things. And I'm being upfront about the fact that MFIRE pretty much sucks but that I don't anticipate making it into a ranged MSTRIKE equivalent and thus unambiguously upgrading archery, under its present state as compared to other physical combat styles.

I've seen it stated several times now about the "long term health of the game".

Does the amount of wizard characters played vs the amount of other classes played have anything to do with the wizard changes?

I'd like to understand why wizards had to be nerfed in order to help the long term health of the game.

Anything compared with celerity is going to look sick, because celerity is even more powerful than haste was, particularly at high training.

Can mfire work against wizards making every single topic about wizards being nerfed?

so should we put a big banner on the wiki page to not train in it?

>so should we put a big banner on the wiki page to not train in it?

Heh. I think that's implied by how little actual information there is about it on the wiki. That's why I keep feeling the need to retrain it, to remind myself how poorly it works.

Droit

---

Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""

>Heh. I think that's implied by how little actual information there is about it on the wiki.

The wiki does sat its slow both specifically and by implication from the example clip.

"Many people find it quicker to fire individual shots than to use mfire."
"Roundtime: 12 sec."

Its not something that I'd try out with much expectation of success after looking at the wiki page.

>Physical combat information in general is extremely lacking.

What sorts of things would you like to see more of? e.g. MFIRE looks about right to me and I wouldn't actually think of adding anything to that page even if it was one of the CMans I knew a lot about.

Changing the info box is not something I know how to do (presumably there is a way to change it automatically across all manoevers to include a slot for roundtime?), then its a case of rolling up test squares to acquire the data.

When to use is trickier. Its very situational. There are an awful lot of manoevers that my characters regard as only fit for RP use, but others make use of. (e.g. a halfling smith is rubbish at offensive manoevers not just because rogue manoevers are rubbish, but because there are heavy penalties for being a halfling and training as a smith.)

Are there ANY specific use cases where Mfire might be useful? How about burst damage on a non-critting creature like a Construct?

>Are there ANY specific use cases where Mfire might be useful?

When you want the lolz of eating dirt.

>Every time you use MFIRE, three new wizard nerf topics are spawned.

Oh yeah, and that. But I think it's more like "Post about MFIRE" and that requires "Starting a new thread on the forums" which results in "Another thread where players discuss wizard nerfs". People are doing that for the lolz too, right?

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>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p