>XXX's armor looks like it has already been adjusted. She would have to take it off and then put it back on for you to be able to properly work with it.
The character here received armor support from a different warrior who I believe has 4 ranks of armor support. My warrior has 5 ranks (the maximum amount) of support. A character with N ranks of armor support should be able to have to re-adjust any level of armor support up to and including N ranks, not just exactly N ranks, without having to ask the character to take the armor off and back on again. (Which can be an awkward request to make in public.)
A little QoL would be awesome. Thanks!
PFLATS
RATHBONER
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
11/30/2016 08:44 AM CST
Its about requiring consent for intimate actions on another character, not just avoiding mechanical disadvantage.
When I've been asked to provide armor support, I didn't have any issue with asking the character to rearrange their own attire first. Thats a lot less intimate than rearranging it for them which they've already consented to.
The RT is mechanically awkward and there might be more elegant ways to code that requirement for consent, but I do think it needs to be there to avoid having RPcentric players forced out of character by mechanically dominated ones.
When I've been asked to provide armor support, I didn't have any issue with asking the character to rearrange their own attire first. Thats a lot less intimate than rearranging it for them which they've already consented to.
The RT is mechanically awkward and there might be more elegant ways to code that requirement for consent, but I do think it needs to be there to avoid having RPcentric players forced out of character by mechanically dominated ones.
OM1E5GA
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
11/30/2016 09:22 AM CST
<Its about requiring consent for intimate actions on another character, not just avoiding mechanical disadvantage.>
Except any character can just walk up to another and get intimate with their armor if it hasn't already been adjusted. There's a paladin that keeps adjusting my cleric's robes to help with casting all the time... and after this thread, I'm thinking maybe he's noticed the pink robes and bedazzled runestaff and he just wants to feel up the poor guy...
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Except any character can just walk up to another and get intimate with their armor if it hasn't already been adjusted. There's a paladin that keeps adjusting my cleric's robes to help with casting all the time... and after this thread, I'm thinking maybe he's noticed the pink robes and bedazzled runestaff and he just wants to feel up the poor guy...
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KHARIZ555
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
11/30/2016 12:56 PM CST
<<Its about requiring consent for intimate actions on another character, not just avoiding mechanical disadvantage.
As Star pointed out, that's not correct. If someone's armor is NOT already adjusted, or if it has been adjusted by the same warrior in the past, that warrior can walk up to the person and adjust the armor at will. The roundtime only applies to the warrior, not the recipient.
If I adjust your armor, and then walk up to you an hour later, I can adjust it again. But if Roblar adjusts your armor, I can't adjust it unless it wears off (all 4 hours) or you add/remove your armor for me to adjust it. The request was for warriors with equal to or higher ranks to be able to adjust armor without the need for the recipient to add/remove their armor first. This is a reasonable request, and one that I support.
As Star pointed out, that's not correct. If someone's armor is NOT already adjusted, or if it has been adjusted by the same warrior in the past, that warrior can walk up to the person and adjust the armor at will. The roundtime only applies to the warrior, not the recipient.
If I adjust your armor, and then walk up to you an hour later, I can adjust it again. But if Roblar adjusts your armor, I can't adjust it unless it wears off (all 4 hours) or you add/remove your armor for me to adjust it. The request was for warriors with equal to or higher ranks to be able to adjust armor without the need for the recipient to add/remove their armor first. This is a reasonable request, and one that I support.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
11/30/2016 01:54 PM CST
Seems reasonable to me. I would hope that demeanor also stops armor adjustments.
ROBLAR
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
11/30/2016 03:05 PM CST
I support this as well. Higher ranks should override the same type adjustment already on armor.
And also yes demeanor should be the mechanical block for rpers that do not want to be adjusted. Whether general demeanor or going cold on someone who is frisky with their unwanted hands adjusting you.
And also yes demeanor should be the mechanical block for rpers that do not want to be adjusted. Whether general demeanor or going cold on someone who is frisky with their unwanted hands adjusting you.
RATHBONER
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 04:33 AM CST
>As Star pointed out, that's not correct. If someone's armor is NOT already adjusted, or if it has been adjusted by the same warrior in the past, that warrior can walk up to the person and adjust the armor at will. The roundtime only applies to the warrior, not the recipient.
When you take your armor off and put it on again, you take a lot of RT. I don't think there'd be much fuss at all about this if it wasn't for that RT. I don't want to take it in order to remove unwanted alterations to my character, and I suspect you wouldn't mind getting consent first if the recipient didn't have to take that RT to give it. If something like STOP SUPPORT did the same thing as removing and replacing armor but without RT, I suspect everyone would regard that as an improvement on the current system.
>Seems reasonable to me. I would hope that demeanor also stops armor adjustments.
There isn't a separate demeanor setting for armor adjustment let alone one that can be tailored to allow different settings for whether its none, my own, my partner's or some strangers adjustment thats being overridden without consent. Using an existing adjustment to indicate where presumed consent applies works pretty well for me, and a lot better than could be done with demeanor settings, though there might be some that deliberately don't have any adjustment at all and they should be able to keep it that way.
When you take your armor off and put it on again, you take a lot of RT. I don't think there'd be much fuss at all about this if it wasn't for that RT. I don't want to take it in order to remove unwanted alterations to my character, and I suspect you wouldn't mind getting consent first if the recipient didn't have to take that RT to give it. If something like STOP SUPPORT did the same thing as removing and replacing armor but without RT, I suspect everyone would regard that as an improvement on the current system.
>Seems reasonable to me. I would hope that demeanor also stops armor adjustments.
There isn't a separate demeanor setting for armor adjustment let alone one that can be tailored to allow different settings for whether its none, my own, my partner's or some strangers adjustment thats being overridden without consent. Using an existing adjustment to indicate where presumed consent applies works pretty well for me, and a lot better than could be done with demeanor settings, though there might be some that deliberately don't have any adjustment at all and they should be able to keep it that way.
RATHBONER
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 05:14 AM CST
>If I adjust your armor, and then walk up to you an hour later, I can adjust it again. But if Roblar adjusts your armor, I can't adjust it unless it wears off (all 4 hours) or you add/remove your armor for me to adjust it. The request was for warriors with equal to or higher ranks to be able to adjust armor without the need for the recipient to add/remove their armor first. This is a reasonable request, and one that I support.
If I adjust my own armor, you can't walk up to me and readjust it without my consent, and thats the way it should remain. If my partner adjusts my armor, you can't walk up to me and readjust it without my consent, and thats the way it should remain.
Something other than add/remove armor to express consent is fine, but something that allows you to impose unwanted alterations on me, that then take me half a minute of RT to reverse, is not fine at all.
OM1E5GA
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 09:45 AM CST
<Something other than add/remove armor to express consent is fine, but something that allows you to impose unwanted alterations on me, that then take me half a minute of RT to reverse, is not fine at all.>
That something should also prevent people from casting their spells on you. It drives me nuts when folk (usually wizards) just start casting defensive spells on me that I can't have up all the time. Unless it's Strength, stop wasting your mana on my characters, I'm just going to STOP the spells the second you walk away.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That something should also prevent people from casting their spells on you. It drives me nuts when folk (usually wizards) just start casting defensive spells on me that I can't have up all the time. Unless it's Strength, stop wasting your mana on my characters, I'm just going to STOP the spells the second you walk away.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KRAKII
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 09:49 AM CST
Do it before they walk away, so they see them melting off you as they do it...
THROGG
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 11:35 AM CST
You know, rogues can adjust armor also.
PFLATS
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 12:05 PM CST
>If I adjust my own armor, you can't walk up to me and readjust it without my consent, and thats the way it should remain. If my partner adjusts my armor, you can't walk up to me and readjust it without my consent, and thats the way it should remain.
If it's the same type of adjustment, and equal or greater ranks - in other words, an unmitigated improvement - then I disagree. Every other system in the game that I can think of works this way. If you're attached in your own armor support over mine, then that's an RP thing and you can handle it with demeanor. I don't think we're dealing with an epidemic of drive-by armor adjustments.
The system should remain as-is for lesser of different types of armor adjustments. You should not be able to replace someone's Fluidity with your Evasion. You should not be able to replace their Fluidity 3 with your Fluidity 1. You should be able to replace their Fluidity 3 with your Fluidity 4.
If it's the same type of adjustment, and equal or greater ranks - in other words, an unmitigated improvement - then I disagree. Every other system in the game that I can think of works this way. If you're attached in your own armor support over mine, then that's an RP thing and you can handle it with demeanor. I don't think we're dealing with an epidemic of drive-by armor adjustments.
The system should remain as-is for lesser of different types of armor adjustments. You should not be able to replace someone's Fluidity with your Evasion. You should not be able to replace their Fluidity 3 with your Fluidity 1. You should be able to replace their Fluidity 3 with your Fluidity 4.
OM1E5GA
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 12:20 PM CST
<I don't think we're dealing with an epidemic of drive-by armor adjustments.>
Maybe not in the Landing where everyone demands payment for near everything. In other towns, though, people routinely cast spells, adjust armor, etc without asking if it's needed or wanted. Their intentions are good, but it's not always helpful... esp since it's not possible to ensure you can have spells you don't know up all the time in many smaller towns.
It drives me nuts because I get used to having them there in the 4 hours they're up then end up taking risks I shouldn't when they fall... which accounts for most of the deaths for my characters that are below level 60. It's also why I STOP any spells I don't know (other then disks or strength) before hunting.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Maybe not in the Landing where everyone demands payment for near everything. In other towns, though, people routinely cast spells, adjust armor, etc without asking if it's needed or wanted. Their intentions are good, but it's not always helpful... esp since it's not possible to ensure you can have spells you don't know up all the time in many smaller towns.
It drives me nuts because I get used to having them there in the 4 hours they're up then end up taking risks I shouldn't when they fall... which accounts for most of the deaths for my characters that are below level 60. It's also why I STOP any spells I don't know (other then disks or strength) before hunting.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
ROBLAR
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 12:54 PM CST
Don't you mean STOP spells that you do know?
I wish I could stop spells I don't know!
I wish I could stop spells I don't know!
VANKRASN39
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 01:09 PM CST
>That something should also prevent people from casting their spells on you.
+100
DMWCINCY
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/01/2016 06:37 PM CST
Yeah landing culture has changed. I have not paid for a zpell up in a good 3 years at least.
RATHBONER
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/02/2016 07:08 AM CST
>If it's the same type of adjustment, and equal or greater ranks - in other words, an unmitigated improvement - then I disagree. Every other system in the game that I can think of works this way. If you're attached in your own armor support over mine, then that's an RP thing and you can handle it with demeanor. I don't think we're dealing with an epidemic of drive-by armor adjustments.
I could deal with it by WARN INTERACT and REPORT, but I don't think thats an improvement on the current situation any more than I think using demeanor is. They are both too blunt for the purpose.
Consent is a fundamental principle of the game. Its my judgement about whether I want to consent that counts, not your judgement of whether I should or not, or your judgement of whether I would or not. Whether it is an unmitigated improvement or not is down to my judgement not yours. An assault is not an improvement. Mitigation does not change that its an assault.
The only reason there isn't a drive by epidemic on armor support is that mechanics prevent it. There is an epidemic of presumed consent in the game on spell "buffs".
I could deal with it by WARN INTERACT and REPORT, but I don't think thats an improvement on the current situation any more than I think using demeanor is. They are both too blunt for the purpose.
Consent is a fundamental principle of the game. Its my judgement about whether I want to consent that counts, not your judgement of whether I should or not, or your judgement of whether I would or not. Whether it is an unmitigated improvement or not is down to my judgement not yours. An assault is not an improvement. Mitigation does not change that its an assault.
The only reason there isn't a drive by epidemic on armor support is that mechanics prevent it. There is an epidemic of presumed consent in the game on spell "buffs".
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/02/2016 10:10 AM CST
>> The only reason there isn't a drive by epidemic on armor support is that mechanics prevent it. There is an epidemic of presumed consent in the game on spell "buffs".
I generally don't spell people up unless they ask (or unless they wander into the White Haven courtyard during service night).
That said, while I don't personally spell people up without asking or unless I know them, I would argue that we have a sub-culture of presumed consent and a small minority of players (characters?) that don't like the current culture. Calling it an epidemic incorrectly characterizes it as generally unwanted or undesired across a broad base of the population. I would argue that 80+ percent of the player base is happy to have random defensive spells thrown on them.
To somewhat illustrate my point, I did used to cast haste on empaths whenever they were healing up. I did this without asking for years - I don't have a count but lets say it was at least a hundred empaths. Out of all those empaths, I had maybe 2 or 3 that asked me not to do this (so I color coded them appropriately and didn't cast haste on the going forward) and let's say maybe 2-3 more that would have preferred I didn't cast haste on them but chose not to say anything about it.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
I generally don't spell people up unless they ask (or unless they wander into the White Haven courtyard during service night).
That said, while I don't personally spell people up without asking or unless I know them, I would argue that we have a sub-culture of presumed consent and a small minority of players (characters?) that don't like the current culture. Calling it an epidemic incorrectly characterizes it as generally unwanted or undesired across a broad base of the population. I would argue that 80+ percent of the player base is happy to have random defensive spells thrown on them.
To somewhat illustrate my point, I did used to cast haste on empaths whenever they were healing up. I did this without asking for years - I don't have a count but lets say it was at least a hundred empaths. Out of all those empaths, I had maybe 2 or 3 that asked me not to do this (so I color coded them appropriately and didn't cast haste on the going forward) and let's say maybe 2-3 more that would have preferred I didn't cast haste on them but chose not to say anything about it.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
VANKRASN39
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/02/2016 10:13 AM CST
>I would argue that 80+ percent of the player base is happy to have random defensive spells thrown on them.
80+% are probably just fine with being randomly healed, but we have mechanics to stop random healing.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/02/2016 10:33 AM CST
Oh sorry... I meant to add that I'm on board with having mechanics to stop defensive spells from being cast if people want that. I just didn't think it was a fair characterization of the issue.
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
-- Robert
A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
KRAKII
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/02/2016 10:46 AM CST
Not just Haste (now, Celerity). But RapidFire would not go amiss, either.
(Like when you've got nothing but six limb minors [to include hands], or five organ minors [to include eyes].)
Incant bang bang bang bang bang. Done. None of this 20-second cumulative wait crap.
(Like when you've got nothing but six limb minors [to include hands], or five organ minors [to include eyes].)
Incant bang bang bang bang bang. Done. None of this 20-second cumulative wait crap.
BRANDTJRT
Re: ARMOR adjustments and multiple adjusters
12/09/2016 09:12 PM CST
As a thought, what about a flag to only have it work if in the same group? Then you can stop random touching, but easily get it at other times.
