An issue came up recently where a private property triggered our vulgarity system. Any room in-game that can be teleported to is considered a public area, even if it's behind an area that can be locked or latched. This has been in our game since February 20, 2002. At this time, this isn't something we plan on changing. If you own a private property and have a room that can be teleported, we can remove the ability to teleport if you'd like that changed, but this would be a permanent change and not something we'll go back and forth on.
As a reminder, inn tables, major sanctuaries (spell 220), and bath houses are all considered public areas due to anyone being able to enter them. I will make sure it is clarified in POLICY 17 about teleportation.
Wyrom, PM
SIMU-WYROM
NAAMIT
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 06:09 AM CDT
Can you please confirm -- An outbound teleportation setting in a room would not trigger this, only inbound teleportation, correct?
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
MAYLAN
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 09:39 AM CDT
Okay, I admit a couple things here.
1. Our vulgarity policy overall is painfully out-dated, as we have collectively grown up as a playerbase. The only kids I know of who play do so under parental supervision. However, I gladly abide by the policy to the best of my ability, because I respect our shared play space.
2. The thought of people breaking policy at an inn table has always been amusing to me. Imagine what the bus boy sees when he goes to work every day. Poor kid probably has PTSD. "Ma, I don't get it. We serve food there. These people are animals!"
That being said, it seems very bizarre that staff would take the time to enforce vulgarity in a private property. My best guess is that there is some wonky code issue that is not easily fixed causing rooms like sanctuaries, tables, and teleport-enabled private property rooms to be considered public. But functionally, they are not. Maybe that's setting off pings for monitoring GMs, and it's not so easy to immediately distinguish between these spaces and true public spaces. If that's the case, I still don't agree with placing the burden on the player here. Is it really a good use of staff time to actively enforce, of all things, someone's private property? That seems a little "gotcha" to me. I understand that this is not up for review at this time. However the next time you do a POLICY review, I recommend you re-consider this.
Anyway, there's my two cents.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
1. Our vulgarity policy overall is painfully out-dated, as we have collectively grown up as a playerbase. The only kids I know of who play do so under parental supervision. However, I gladly abide by the policy to the best of my ability, because I respect our shared play space.
2. The thought of people breaking policy at an inn table has always been amusing to me. Imagine what the bus boy sees when he goes to work every day. Poor kid probably has PTSD. "Ma, I don't get it. We serve food there. These people are animals!"
That being said, it seems very bizarre that staff would take the time to enforce vulgarity in a private property. My best guess is that there is some wonky code issue that is not easily fixed causing rooms like sanctuaries, tables, and teleport-enabled private property rooms to be considered public. But functionally, they are not. Maybe that's setting off pings for monitoring GMs, and it's not so easy to immediately distinguish between these spaces and true public spaces. If that's the case, I still don't agree with placing the burden on the player here. Is it really a good use of staff time to actively enforce, of all things, someone's private property? That seems a little "gotcha" to me. I understand that this is not up for review at this time. However the next time you do a POLICY review, I recommend you re-consider this.
Anyway, there's my two cents.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
WHIGHTCNIGHT
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 09:50 AM CDT
It would also be very convenient to have some sort of in-game command to check if a room is considered private. As not every character is skilled enough to check for every possible form of transportation in or out of a room. Being able to type JUSTICE or VULGARITY or whatever and having a line that mentions IC or OOC that the room is considered public/private would help immensely with this. If a command is added to check this status, please update the corresponding POLICY with the availability of the command to be used so that new players can know that it exists. Also likely add it as something that Thrak mentions in his teachings to new players as well. Just my 2-cents.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 10:17 AM CDT
I agree with some of the points you are making Maylan - it really does seem to be a waste of staff time to be enforcing vulgarity in a private property. But if someone can enter the space uninvited (via teleportation or otherwise) then I guess you could argue that the location isn't truly private and there is a chance, however improbable, that soneone's kid could be exposed to inappropriate content. My opinion is that Simutronics should have a responsibility to keep Elanthia kid friendly to the best of their ability. It seems like the solution Wyrom is offering will address this for Private properties.
On the flip side, I am definitely glad we have policies in place to prevent Elanthia from devolving into the dumpster fire that is the main LNet channel. At least in public. :-) Colorful expressions definitely have their place in game, and I appreciate it when folks go out of their way to find creative ways to express themselves colorfully without resorting to crude and vulgar language. I'm not convinced that loosening up the vulgarity policy in public (not sure if you are suggesting that it should be or not) would be a good thing overall for the game experience.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
On the flip side, I am definitely glad we have policies in place to prevent Elanthia from devolving into the dumpster fire that is the main LNet channel. At least in public. :-) Colorful expressions definitely have their place in game, and I appreciate it when folks go out of their way to find creative ways to express themselves colorfully without resorting to crude and vulgar language. I'm not convinced that loosening up the vulgarity policy in public (not sure if you are suggesting that it should be or not) would be a good thing overall for the game experience.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
ALLENM20
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 11:12 AM CDT
The way I understood it, is that the system is automated and private properties with rooms you can teleport into can trigger this AUTOMATED system. Once flagged, this can negatively impact the player if they have other policy violations as the system doesn't distinguish where the vulgarity violation was generated.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
OM1E5GA
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 12:03 PM CDT
<Colorful expressions definitely have their place in game, and I appreciate it when folks go out of their way to find creative ways to express themselves colorfully without resorting to crude and vulgar language. I'm not convinced that loosening up the vulgarity policy in public (not sure if you are suggesting that it should be or not) would be a good thing overall for the game experience.>
THIS!
I have had so much fun with the gnome over the years making him colorful, revolting, and generally walking up to the line and peeing all over it (and maybe taking a flying leap over it once in a great while....ssshhh!) while remaining in character.... if I were able to just use whatever language I wanted (and allowed myself to) I don't think I or anyone around me would have had near as much fun with him as we have. Besides, even when I'm sitting at a table chatting with someone, it's just extra keystrokes to use those words if I were to type the way I speak.
As an interesting aside, as I've played Star I've actually had the thought that a lot of RL vulgarity could actually be considered OOC. The big way is that what offends us IRL wouldn't necessarily be offensive in the societies our characters live in and vice versa. For example, "race" is not only interpreted in a vastly different way in RL then it is in Elanthia, but Elanthians also tend to view racism differently... when Star calls someone a "knife-eared freak" in the town commons, the only ones likely to be offended are those with elvish blood and even they might very well not even bat an eye cause "what does that gnome know about anything". However, if one were to use a similar phrase to describe someone of another race IRL they'd be taking a HUGE social risk, if not a financial one.
Similarly, in a society where our religions don't exist, views on religious and sexual vulgarity would vary depending on what deity one followed and/or their up-bringing. Who's to say followers of certain deities wouldn't bat an eye at the most graphic description of what happens behind closed doors but would be rendered speechless at the mention someone took a vow of celibacy. If a large enough percentage of society were never taught that sex was an affront to their god, would certain four-letter words I can't type here even gain any sort of traction? Maybe, but not necessarily....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
THIS!
I have had so much fun with the gnome over the years making him colorful, revolting, and generally walking up to the line and peeing all over it (and maybe taking a flying leap over it once in a great while....ssshhh!) while remaining in character.... if I were able to just use whatever language I wanted (and allowed myself to) I don't think I or anyone around me would have had near as much fun with him as we have. Besides, even when I'm sitting at a table chatting with someone, it's just extra keystrokes to use those words if I were to type the way I speak.
As an interesting aside, as I've played Star I've actually had the thought that a lot of RL vulgarity could actually be considered OOC. The big way is that what offends us IRL wouldn't necessarily be offensive in the societies our characters live in and vice versa. For example, "race" is not only interpreted in a vastly different way in RL then it is in Elanthia, but Elanthians also tend to view racism differently... when Star calls someone a "knife-eared freak" in the town commons, the only ones likely to be offended are those with elvish blood and even they might very well not even bat an eye cause "what does that gnome know about anything". However, if one were to use a similar phrase to describe someone of another race IRL they'd be taking a HUGE social risk, if not a financial one.
Similarly, in a society where our religions don't exist, views on religious and sexual vulgarity would vary depending on what deity one followed and/or their up-bringing. Who's to say followers of certain deities wouldn't bat an eye at the most graphic description of what happens behind closed doors but would be rendered speechless at the mention someone took a vow of celibacy. If a large enough percentage of society were never taught that sex was an affront to their god, would certain four-letter words I can't type here even gain any sort of traction? Maybe, but not necessarily....
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
MAYLAN
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 12:26 PM CDT
>On the flip side, I am definitely glad we have policies in place to prevent Elanthia from devolving into the dumpster fire that is the main LNet channel.
I could not agree with you more. If the game environment turned into LNET, I'd unsub. For me, I think these things are more nuanced than can easily be captured in a clear-cut policy. I have long disliked the double-standard present between violence and sexuality. And to be clear I am not advocating for less graphic violence in the game. I quite enjoy it.
I expect quality roleplay and respect for fellow players in a shared space, but within these confines I can't say I'm offended by the sight of a text breast or someone saying the F word after stubbing their toe. Context matters, and it's hard to capture that in policy. But I still don't like the answer of an automatic warning for saying a bad word.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
I could not agree with you more. If the game environment turned into LNET, I'd unsub. For me, I think these things are more nuanced than can easily be captured in a clear-cut policy. I have long disliked the double-standard present between violence and sexuality. And to be clear I am not advocating for less graphic violence in the game. I quite enjoy it.
I expect quality roleplay and respect for fellow players in a shared space, but within these confines I can't say I'm offended by the sight of a text breast or someone saying the F word after stubbing their toe. Context matters, and it's hard to capture that in policy. But I still don't like the answer of an automatic warning for saying a bad word.
~Land Pirate Maylan~
NAAMIT
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 12:28 PM CDT
I like Tysong's recommendation, but to take it two step further, I do think it would be beneficial to update the vulgarity monitoring system for either of the following, which would prevent unsuspecting eyes from seeing naughty words, period:
1) when offending word is said, check for other people in the room. If no other people are in the room, bypass.
2) create a speech language masking rule for the most egregious words to simply ##### hash them out.
Come to think of it, I can just write a Lich script to handle #2, so I never get in trouble for this again!
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
1) when offending word is said, check for other people in the room. If no other people are in the room, bypass.
2) create a speech language masking rule for the most egregious words to simply ##### hash them out.
Come to think of it, I can just write a Lich script to handle #2, so I never get in trouble for this again!
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 01:13 PM CDT
>>Can you please confirm -- An outbound teleportation setting in a room would not trigger this, only inbound teleportation, correct?
Correct, outbound teleportation is still considered private. It must specifically be set to only outbound teleportation (which we have plenty of).
>>1. Our vulgarity policy overall is painfully out-dated, as we have collectively grown up as a playerbase. The only kids I know of who play do so under parental supervision. However, I gladly abide by the policy to the best of my ability, because I respect our shared play space.
While I can agree that our playerbase is, on average, certainly older, I don't think that that's the only factor on being offended by vulgarity. We try to make the game not slip into being lewd. While I can think of many words that are thematic and in genre, I don't think it would help the game be more appealing.
>>2. The thought of people breaking policy at an inn table has always been amusing to me. Imagine what the bus boy sees when he goes to work every day. Poor kid probably has PTSD. "Ma, I don't get it. We serve food there. These people are animals!"
Inn tables are due to the auto invite feature. While a friend might not mind it, we can't know. That's why it's a roundabout policy.
>>That being said, it seems very bizarre that staff would take the time to enforce vulgarity in a private property.
It's automated. The more severe the word, the harsher it is. If a warning is issued, it's considered one of the more severe terms.
>>It would also be very convenient to have some sort of in-game command to check if a room is considered private.
I'll add this. Will offer more transparency.
>>1) when offending word is said, check for other people in the room. If no other people are in the room, bypass.
This already happens. If you're by yourself, nothing comes of it. Like tables, we can't know which people you adventure with are okay with it, so it has to be a catchall.
Wyrom, PM
Correct, outbound teleportation is still considered private. It must specifically be set to only outbound teleportation (which we have plenty of).
>>1. Our vulgarity policy overall is painfully out-dated, as we have collectively grown up as a playerbase. The only kids I know of who play do so under parental supervision. However, I gladly abide by the policy to the best of my ability, because I respect our shared play space.
While I can agree that our playerbase is, on average, certainly older, I don't think that that's the only factor on being offended by vulgarity. We try to make the game not slip into being lewd. While I can think of many words that are thematic and in genre, I don't think it would help the game be more appealing.
>>2. The thought of people breaking policy at an inn table has always been amusing to me. Imagine what the bus boy sees when he goes to work every day. Poor kid probably has PTSD. "Ma, I don't get it. We serve food there. These people are animals!"
Inn tables are due to the auto invite feature. While a friend might not mind it, we can't know. That's why it's a roundabout policy.
>>That being said, it seems very bizarre that staff would take the time to enforce vulgarity in a private property.
It's automated. The more severe the word, the harsher it is. If a warning is issued, it's considered one of the more severe terms.
>>It would also be very convenient to have some sort of in-game command to check if a room is considered private.
I'll add this. Will offer more transparency.
>>1) when offending word is said, check for other people in the room. If no other people are in the room, bypass.
This already happens. If you're by yourself, nothing comes of it. Like tables, we can't know which people you adventure with are okay with it, so it has to be a catchall.
Wyrom, PM
NAAMIT
Re: Private Areas and Vulgarity
06/09/2020 01:22 PM CDT
1) when offending word is said, check for other people in the room. If no other people are in the room, bypass.
> This already happens. If you're by yourself, nothing comes of it.
Intriguing. I think there is a bug in the system then. I'll wait for a referral to discuss further.
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
> This already happens. If you're by yourself, nothing comes of it.
Intriguing. I think there is a bug in the system then. I'll wait for a referral to discuss further.
Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."
