So several lifetimes ago I played GSIII. Recently I decided to come back to GS and check out 4. While I like many things about the game, I've reached a wall. After posting about it on players corner, it was suggested that I post here to. So, FWIW, here we go:

The new player experience is lacking in many ways. There is a decent attempt to share information, but it's like drinking from a firehose. There's no way someone is going to retain and understand all of that information at once. Additionally, there seems to be no 'on-going' training other than via other players or mentors - both of which are good in their own right, but not ideal for people looking to go it alone (those that don't like asking for help).

Mechanics: For me, the lower levels are FAR to difficult in terms of EXP gain/hunting. There is not a sufficient player base at lower levels to make them enjoyable when you have to grind though endless hours of hunting (to be discussed more in a moment) to justify the caps imposed. While I'm sure your intentions are well founded, you either need to get more butts in the chairs or make a fast path to the current player base.

Hunting: I can't speak for higher levels or other classes. But, as a rogue I've hit a wall starting around 6 or 7. I was able to skirt that wall for a while, making it to level 14, but now seem to have hit the end of the road. Regardless of how I redo my training, and with 4x weapon, armor and shield, I cannot hut at my level. In fact, I cant hunt three levels below my level... so, my options are to attempt to level using level 6 (and an occasional 9) mob, which will come to an end soon, as I'll stop getting experience from them; or, save what's left of my sanity and quit while I'm behind.

Additional feedback: the pricing does not really help in attracting new blood. While I don't mind wasting a few bucks, many people won't gamble it on entertainment - especially if they see things as I did above. Someone else suggested that the FTP be modified to give full access and then hit a hard wall at 20. I think that's a good idea. But, all that is for naught if you don't deal with the experiences I mentioned above. Another idea would be to implement some sort of fast track to current levels (or near that) and give folks 30 days for free.

In any case, there's a chance I'll try a bit more, but most likely my experience has been enough for me to call it a loss. So, SIMU gained an account around the 30th and lost it by the 8th.

<Regardless of how I redo my training, and with 4x weapon, armor and shield, I cannot hut at my level.>

Hogwash. I've solo-hunted 6 characters of 6 different professions into their 30's or beyond without the use of spells they do not know.... sorcerer, rogue, empath, ranger, warrior, and cleric.

I'll allow that the mid to upper teens can be difficult, esp for professions like rogues or bards that rely as much on tactics as training and haven't quite come into their own yet. However, if anyone hits a wall that they just cannot get past, it's that one or more of several things is going on:

1. They're trying to hunt in places that were never designed for their character's type. Some creatures/hunting areas are better for magic users, some better for melee, some a cakewalk for everyone, some difficult for most builds, etc. Below level 40 there's a HUGE number of hunting areas to choose from, if you're having trouble in one, try another.... or better yet, ask a rogue what they were hunting when they were your level.

2. They've neglected something in their training that's important and don't realize it. I'd suggest copying and pasting what you get when you type SKILL in the Rogue folder under Professions and letting folk there offer suggestions.

3. They haven't figured out decent tactics for their character. Stance dancing will only get you so far, eventually you're going to have to incorporate CMANs, AMBUSH, etc into your combat. Know the strengths and weaknesses of what you're fighting as well as those of your character, find ways to take advantage of your strengths/their weaknesses, find out how to avoid the worst of their strengths, and limit their ability to target your weaknesses.

4. They refuse to retreat and regroup when a fight turns against them. Yea, sometimes that's not an option... but when you find yourself stunned/webbed/etc, it's time to get your rump out from in front of whatever you're fighting if at all possible, tend to whatever wounds you need to, and maybe return to town to lighten your load.

GS has always had a steep learning curve, even back when it was GS3. It's admiral that you want to try to go it you're own, but the game just has so many ins and outs that you're setting yourself up for frustration by not asking someone somewhere for advice... between other players, Mentors, the forums, Discord, and the Wiki there is boatloads of knowledge your missing out on that can make things much easier for you.

Lastly, if your rogue is trained to use ranged, I'd give this guide a look-through: https://gswiki.play.net/Starchitin%27s_rogue_sniper_guide

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

"Hogwash. I've solo-hunted 6 characters of 6 different professions into their 30's or beyond without the use of spells they do not know.... sorcerer, rogue, empath, ranger, warrior, and cleric."

I'm sure some people can. But, I'm here to say i can't (or perhaps I won't - I'm not that committed to the game yet). And. I'd think a fair number of people would have the same experience and expectations that I do. Right, wrong or indifferent, it's the way I look at it all.

There is a steep learning curve here. There is a lot of information out there, but a lot of it is useless without context - something a new player wouldn't usually have. Further, I've seen little to nothing regarding what types of creatures to hunt for what setup's etc. And, personally I don't think that is something that should be a hard wall this early on. That type of mechanic should be built on over a period of time. At mid teens someone isn't committed enough to continue on. In the early days of GS, when there was a decent population at that level range, you could overcome with grouping. Now, most everyone at that level is scripting and burning through (with knowledge and experience to guide them through).

Additional details on my experiences - I did talk with a mentor and research heavily before posting. I respec'd every way I could imagine. I looked at stats and skills I could find on other players. Nothing I tried made any notable difference. Also, 'stance dancing', though common sense, isn't something I saw out there. Additionally, something i didn't see out there was that using the dagger I started with was a bad idea for a young rogue (this turns out to be a really bad idea at my current level IMO).

After reading some of the responses, and talking to a few people on Discord (which has been the best tool thus far), I believe I've found a way to make it a bit further. So, in the hopes of either 'getting it' or getting far enough along to get past this wall, I'm going to try that a bit. However, I still stand by everything I've said. I believe the average new player wouldn't continue on based on what I've seen and experienced. People, by and large, are not accustom to putting in that level of effort from the word go. I've played some rather difficult mechanics in MMORPGs (with end level raiding for about 7 years). I have no issue putting in the work... but, no one likes banging their head against a bed of spikes for eternity.

FWIW - I didn't post this as a complaint per say. I posted it as feedback. From what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of feedback from newer players and I think it's sorely needed.

At level 14 you need to stance dance, and you need a choice of weaponry. Something you can swing fast when the critter is fast and you need to dance fast, and something you can swing hard when the critter is armored. There are still critters where sitting in the same stance works, but its becoming a lot more important to dance once you are past level 10 and a lot more tedious if you don't.

Assuming you are OHE, you should have handaxe, shortsword and dagger (others can be made to work too but thats the range of weaponry to have).

You should be using mostly the handaxe, but there will be a few situations where the extra speed of the shortsword is worth it. You may have found the dagger useful earlier, and it will be useful again once you have the training to ambush, but at level 14 its just for skinning.

There are still critters where it pays to pick the right stance and swing in it, but they are getting rarer and its getting grindier if you play that way. Unless the critter is really fast, its going to pay you to sit in defensive till the critter acts, stance offensive, attack it with your handaxe, stance defensive. If there are multiple critters, run away. (or pick a stance where they can't hurt you and nick them, or dance if they are acting in sync).

Once you are comfortable with that, look at the options for your shield points and try them out. Some of the shield skills work pretty well at boosting your attack in the teens (and earlier, its actually worth starting to experiment at level 5)

If you aren't paying, and are finding it grindy, thats why. You need to subscribe or buy whatever passes it takes to make the game feel less grindy. I think being relatively slow to level 10 is an advantage, but once into the teens F2P gets really grindy compared to subscriber mode.

I had an F2P rogue in Icemule until level 15 earlier this year. The 6-9 stuff (monkeys etc., lesser orcs etc., spectres) should be getting too easy but still fine to practice skills on. Silverbacks (next up from lesser orcs/spectres) are huntable from as soon as you get 4x gear, but you need modest dancing skills and the right weapon (handaxe or equivalent). Dogs and guardians (next up from monkeys) are tactically tricky, you need to run away a lot and have a lot of patience particularly when learning that area. Sentries (next up from guardians) aren't as tactically tricky, if you get comfortable with the dog area, you can take the sentries no problem. If you get comfortable with sentries, you can take the ogres (next up from silverbacks). After that you need a cleric friend or to switch towns. Everyone dies a lot in urchins (next up from sentries) and there's a lot of undead among the other options.

"when your only two hunting characters are a CS caster and a ranged user, it's almost like playing two different games from a hunting perspective." -- Starchitin

This is another good thing to remember, on both sides of the discussion. (What mind-set advice is coming from, whether you're the one giving or receiving.)

After several years playing the Bard nearly exclusively, it required some substantial adjustments to thought process to go back to a melee character--bringing up the Monk, or now with the Fighter to get into the plate Mist Ring--and that whole "hard RT" means I can't do WHAT?!?!

>>everybody uses it for in game communication

nope


Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)

> Maybe the Elven Nations are more busy on those channels.

They aren't.

---

Some lady softly says, "Naamit is over-rated."
You reply, speaking to the lady, "At least I have ratings."

Hey! We few who don't use Lich should start our own Lich chann--....

<mutter, grumble, sear, kick puppy>