I was just reminiscing about the arguments back in the day about what is physically realistic in Elanthia. Some things you can attribute to temporary alterations of physics, namely magic, but other things are just illogical. For example, when the world suddenly stopped spinning that one time when the day/night system was introduced, everyone should have died a horribly violent death. Inertia is inertia. It is somewhat different from the case of magical effects, where there is no coherent conversion of mana into "energy."
I remember there was once an analysis by Mnar's player along those lines, like "if you actually made this effect happen out of thin air it would involve as much energy as a nuclear bomb." Some spells that cost more mana would involve much less energy. It's sort of like the joke that a light saber would throw off so much heat you might as well just turn it on remotely.
Here's one about glaes being denser than plutonium, implying soul golems should weigh more than elephants:
http://zilal.byondhome.com/gs3/culture/gemsoul.html
And another on the logic of lightening armor by adding veniom:
http://zilal.byondhome.com/gs3/culture/gemveniom.html
So, I was thinking about situations where things happen in the game where the physics is wrong, but allowing some hand waving for the origins of magical effects. (Or our characters being able to walk hundreds of miles per minute.) If we allow that Implosion (720) opens an unstable portal in space, for example, we can leave aside what that means and look at its consequences. It is an opening to some vacuum, which makes all the air rush through the void. The effects of the spell that are consequential are not magical at all.
The trouble is that it makes bodies explode, which is actually complete nonsense. It might knock you unconscious having all the air sucked out of you, but there is no way you blow up. On the other hand, the rushing air would be way more violent, not this thing that unfolds over multiple rounds. The average velocity of an air molecule is faster than the speed of sound. If you introduce a meter sized hole in a room leading into a vacuum, most of the air in the room will be gone in a fraction of a second. Focused Implosion especially makes no sense.
Another example might be plate armor having a relatively high DF to electricity, when it would make the bolt arc to ground if the inside was padded. In the real world you would wear a metal suit or stand inside a metal cage to protect yourself from the arcs of a Tesla coil. Or being "soaked" from Minor Bolt (903) now makes you more vulnerable to electricity, when pure water (which presumably "elemental water" would be) is actually an insulator.
There's my question for the insufferable nerds out there. What else is not even wrong?
- Xorus' player
INIQUITY
DMWCINCY
Re: Let's Get Physical
09/26/2015 12:19 PM CDT
Adding the impurities from the person hit with the water should make the water conductive enough.
Add the ability to wear heavy armor and move as good and as quietly as you can in game. I have worn a mail shirt before. While i am sure wearing it every day i could move around pretty good...i just cant see myself running around in plate.
While I am the type that can let go of reality to enjoy the mechanics of a game I do love discussions like this and look forward to seeing what people come up with.
Add the ability to wear heavy armor and move as good and as quietly as you can in game. I have worn a mail shirt before. While i am sure wearing it every day i could move around pretty good...i just cant see myself running around in plate.
While I am the type that can let go of reality to enjoy the mechanics of a game I do love discussions like this and look forward to seeing what people come up with.
HATESHI
Re: Let's Get Physical
09/26/2015 12:25 PM CDT
Incidentally, I believe that the Nightime/Daytime quest ultimately explained away the perpetual daytime as being a dense array of magical mirrors forming a massive dome in the sky that reflected light from the sun at all hours and gave the illusion of constant noontime. When it was shattered, shimmering glaesine orbs fell from the sky as a quest momento for everyone who had an account at the time (though of course limited to one per account). I could be wrong in that recollection. It was a good while ago, 2002-ish?
There definitely have been some interesting physical inconsistencies that jumped out at me in the past, though I'll have to think on it to remember just what they were. The whole "what does a single silver piece weigh" was a question that was brought up a few times with some rather startling calculations based on encumbrance.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
There definitely have been some interesting physical inconsistencies that jumped out at me in the past, though I'll have to think on it to remember just what they were. The whole "what does a single silver piece weigh" was a question that was brought up a few times with some rather startling calculations based on encumbrance.
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
BRANDTJRT
Re: Let's Get Physical
09/26/2015 09:16 PM CDT
I do like reading a lot of these sorts of threads. For many things though, I think mana and its interactions with the natural environment are something that would need to be considered, and there should be more studies of it at the various guilds.
Physics-wise, does iron being 120% of the weight of an equal volume of steel make sense?
>>shimmering glaesine orbs fell from the sky as a quest momento for everyone who had an account at the time (though of course limited to one per account)
I don't recall what led up to it, but it was definitely per character and probably around 2001. I think 2002 had those butterfly charms show up.
Physics-wise, does iron being 120% of the weight of an equal volume of steel make sense?
>>shimmering glaesine orbs fell from the sky as a quest momento for everyone who had an account at the time (though of course limited to one per account)
I don't recall what led up to it, but it was definitely per character and probably around 2001. I think 2002 had those butterfly charms show up.
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
09/27/2015 04:08 AM CDT
<<Incidentally, I believe that the Nightime/Daytime quest ultimately explained away the perpetual daytime as being a dense array of magical mirrors forming a massive dome in the sky that reflected light from the sun at all hours and gave the illusion of constant noontime. When it was shattered, shimmering glaesine orbs fell from the sky as a quest momento for everyone who had an account at the time (though of course limited to one per account). I could be wrong in that recollection. It was a good while ago, 2002-ish?>> - HATESHI
Oops...
<< The whole "what does a single silver piece weigh" was a question that was brought up a few times with some rather startling calculations based on encumbrance.>> HATESHI
If I remember correctly it also changes depending on how many coins are involved, which violates conservation of mass, though where do you stuff 50,000 silver coins?
<<Adding the impurities from the person hit with the water should make the water conductive enough.>> DMWCINCY
I might try to calculate this later, how much ion would come off the skin. Though, I think if you get hit with an arc of electricity, the water isn't going to amp the amperage. Maybe it would spread the current more along the surface, giving you surface burns all over instead of the impact point of the bolt? Now I'm imagining someone in plate getting immolated, and the metal expands immobilizing them while they get broiled by their armor.
<<Physics-wise, does iron being 120% of the weight of an equal volume of steel make sense? >> BRANDTJRT
Iron should be maybe 98% to 105% of the weight of an equal volume of steel. Ancient Dwarven secrets? ;)
I will have to try to come up with more later. Off the top of my head, up by Glatoph the wind and cold air will damage you, and you can slip on the ice walking on toward Icemule. I've walked around in -40 Celsius/Fahrenheit (it is the same at that temperature) without caring, though if the wind chill is say -60 it is painful. Ice isn't really slippery anymore at those temperatures. The thin layer of water on the surface gets really thin when you push into the negatives.
It is trickier when there are magical effects going on. Like there is a cold wind blowing out of the arch wights part under the Graveyard, which was written before there was that ghoul master/albino spider area connecting to it. I think that's supposed to be an allusion to the ninth circle of hell in Dante. Or the fall you take in Shadow Valley would be long enough to hit terminal velocity, or 90 something percent of it, except you're getting spit out of a portal at the end. Melgorehn's Reach water tunnels obviously warp space in some way.
I've always assumed ball spells shoot out some kind of essence disturbance, which just makes the elemental effect surround it. If you actually threw a ball of plasma or fire at something, it would not stay together all the way to the target. It would get dispersed trying to move through the atmosphere.
Oops...
| >take glaesine orb |
| You remove a midnight blue glaesine orb from in your mail sack. |
| >look orb |
| The orb is shaped of pure midnight blue glaes, crafted into a perfect orb. It hangs from a delicate silver chain affixed with a tiny moon-shaped mithril pin. |
| Tiny shimmering crystals hover inside the orb, pulsating slightly with the light of the stars. Currently they form the shape of the constellation of The Unicorn. |
| Barely visible on the glaesine surface of the orb, some words have been etched in minute script around its circumference. |
| >read orb |
| Minute but elegant script is barely visible as it encircles your glaesine orb... |
| "Frae Naira vers Deiam, Jae esais bevre Tua ae te Draekeche." |
| "From Dusk til Dawn, I stand between thee and the darkness." |
| - from the journals of |
| Linsandrych Illistim |
| circa -49,080 |
<< The whole "what does a single silver piece weigh" was a question that was brought up a few times with some rather startling calculations based on encumbrance.>> HATESHI
If I remember correctly it also changes depending on how many coins are involved, which violates conservation of mass, though where do you stuff 50,000 silver coins?
<<Adding the impurities from the person hit with the water should make the water conductive enough.>> DMWCINCY
I might try to calculate this later, how much ion would come off the skin. Though, I think if you get hit with an arc of electricity, the water isn't going to amp the amperage. Maybe it would spread the current more along the surface, giving you surface burns all over instead of the impact point of the bolt? Now I'm imagining someone in plate getting immolated, and the metal expands immobilizing them while they get broiled by their armor.
<<Physics-wise, does iron being 120% of the weight of an equal volume of steel make sense? >> BRANDTJRT
Iron should be maybe 98% to 105% of the weight of an equal volume of steel. Ancient Dwarven secrets? ;)
I will have to try to come up with more later. Off the top of my head, up by Glatoph the wind and cold air will damage you, and you can slip on the ice walking on toward Icemule. I've walked around in -40 Celsius/Fahrenheit (it is the same at that temperature) without caring, though if the wind chill is say -60 it is painful. Ice isn't really slippery anymore at those temperatures. The thin layer of water on the surface gets really thin when you push into the negatives.
It is trickier when there are magical effects going on. Like there is a cold wind blowing out of the arch wights part under the Graveyard, which was written before there was that ghoul master/albino spider area connecting to it. I think that's supposed to be an allusion to the ninth circle of hell in Dante. Or the fall you take in Shadow Valley would be long enough to hit terminal velocity, or 90 something percent of it, except you're getting spit out of a portal at the end. Melgorehn's Reach water tunnels obviously warp space in some way.
I've always assumed ball spells shoot out some kind of essence disturbance, which just makes the elemental effect surround it. If you actually threw a ball of plasma or fire at something, it would not stay together all the way to the target. It would get dispersed trying to move through the atmosphere.
DAID
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/01/2015 03:26 AM CDT
As far as the post about adding veniom to armor to lighten it, I have to question this line:
>Air weighs nothing
It's totally rubbish--shame shame for mocking physics of a fantasy world and getting something so simple so wrong! The rest of the analysis seems okay for me, though.
>What else is not even wrong?
That's a great quote from Wolfgang Pauli, incidentally.
I did a previous analysis of how ridiculous the lunar systems are (and my wife was mocking the star lore as well in the OP): http://www.tinyheroes.com/forums/GemStone%20IV/General%20Roleplaying/The%20World%20of%20Elanthia/thread/1627862
One thing I never figured out is how a character's stature can be changed within some bounds (smaller or larger, strictly for RP in appearance) but the character's mechanical weight isn't changed (as it is determined by stats). So if your character becomes shorter at the New Look Pavilion, they necessarily become fatter so the weight is the same? I find this to be quite foolish, although it can in principle be imagined. Except my sorcerer is diminutive and has an emaciated face but still weighs like 125 pounds (must be junk in the trunk).
If you pour a rose-marrow and talneo potion together, they explode and shatter. Drink one after the other, though, and you're fine! Strange...
I had a post with like 10 items that could be jarring from immersion not to long ago (it was in relation to someone complaining about how an empath linking to them makes them immediately think "this person is F2P" and showing these may happen all the time, depending on perspective) but for the life of me I cannot find it searching tinyheroes on Google. Some of it related to 'physics' while others were more perception-based, etc.
I'll mull over some more physical aspects and see what else I can come up with.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
>Air weighs nothing
It's totally rubbish--shame shame for mocking physics of a fantasy world and getting something so simple so wrong! The rest of the analysis seems okay for me, though.
>What else is not even wrong?
That's a great quote from Wolfgang Pauli, incidentally.
I did a previous analysis of how ridiculous the lunar systems are (and my wife was mocking the star lore as well in the OP): http://www.tinyheroes.com/forums/GemStone%20IV/General%20Roleplaying/The%20World%20of%20Elanthia/thread/1627862
One thing I never figured out is how a character's stature can be changed within some bounds (smaller or larger, strictly for RP in appearance) but the character's mechanical weight isn't changed (as it is determined by stats). So if your character becomes shorter at the New Look Pavilion, they necessarily become fatter so the weight is the same? I find this to be quite foolish, although it can in principle be imagined. Except my sorcerer is diminutive and has an emaciated face but still weighs like 125 pounds (must be junk in the trunk).
If you pour a rose-marrow and talneo potion together, they explode and shatter. Drink one after the other, though, and you're fine! Strange...
I had a post with like 10 items that could be jarring from immersion not to long ago (it was in relation to someone complaining about how an empath linking to them makes them immediately think "this person is F2P" and showing these may happen all the time, depending on perspective) but for the life of me I cannot find it searching tinyheroes on Google. Some of it related to 'physics' while others were more perception-based, etc.
I'll mull over some more physical aspects and see what else I can come up with.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
JADZIABLUE
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/01/2015 10:54 AM CDT
>One thing I never figured out is how a character's stature can be changed within some bounds (smaller or larger, strictly for RP in appearance) but the character's mechanical weight isn't changed (as it is determined by stats). So if your character becomes shorter at the New Look Pavilion, they necessarily become fatter so the weight is the same? I find this to be quite foolish, although it can in principle be imagined. Except my sorcerer is diminutive and has an emaciated face but still weighs like 125 pounds (must be junk in the trunk).
The more and more one analyzes character weights, the less and less sense they make. I generally treat it as a number to be ignored.
I've always wanted character weights to be split up into mechanical and cosmetic weights. I know having that mechanical weight has been one of the barriers to allowing physical build to be a part of the feature system, but given that the mechanical weight comes across as so nonsensical... I think it's almost silly to keep cosmetic and mechanical linked.
My character, a 'shorter than average' human women usually comes out at 220+ pounds when someone WEIGHs her. Yeah... no. She's small in stature and leads an active life. She's in decent shape. Her weight is about double what it should be. (I think its a combination of human race + high strength stat?)
One could say "an Elanthian pound is different than an Earth pound"... which I could totally accept if the comparative weights between races weren't so wildly crazy. Humans are supposed to be heavier/denser than elves. That's fine. I think the system takes that to a bit of an excess though, way past the point of logic. Humans tend to come out ridiculously heavy under this system.
What I would like to see is... when you WEIGH someone, it should just give you a relative indicator of your ability to move them.
>WEIGH Raelee
Raelee looks like she would be easy/difficult/whatever for you to movie.
Then perhaps we could open up a system to allow body builds to be features that are separate from mechanics.
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
The more and more one analyzes character weights, the less and less sense they make. I generally treat it as a number to be ignored.
I've always wanted character weights to be split up into mechanical and cosmetic weights. I know having that mechanical weight has been one of the barriers to allowing physical build to be a part of the feature system, but given that the mechanical weight comes across as so nonsensical... I think it's almost silly to keep cosmetic and mechanical linked.
My character, a 'shorter than average' human women usually comes out at 220+ pounds when someone WEIGHs her. Yeah... no. She's small in stature and leads an active life. She's in decent shape. Her weight is about double what it should be. (I think its a combination of human race + high strength stat?)
One could say "an Elanthian pound is different than an Earth pound"... which I could totally accept if the comparative weights between races weren't so wildly crazy. Humans are supposed to be heavier/denser than elves. That's fine. I think the system takes that to a bit of an excess though, way past the point of logic. Humans tend to come out ridiculously heavy under this system.
What I would like to see is... when you WEIGH someone, it should just give you a relative indicator of your ability to move them.
>WEIGH Raelee
Raelee looks like she would be easy/difficult/whatever for you to movie.
Then perhaps we could open up a system to allow body builds to be features that are separate from mechanics.
Signed,
Raelee and her Strings
>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."
DAID
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/01/2015 11:17 AM CDT
>The more and more one analyzes character weights, the less and less sense they make. I generally treat it as a number to be ignored.
I don't disagree. It's still a rather foolish system in my opinion. And I ignore it, especially now that 730 is so easy for my halfling sorcerer to use (and my halfling paladin is pretty buff so he doesn't care anyway).
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
I don't disagree. It's still a rather foolish system in my opinion. And I ignore it, especially now that 730 is so easy for my halfling sorcerer to use (and my halfling paladin is pretty buff so he doesn't care anyway).
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
BRANDTJRT
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/02/2015 01:10 AM CDT
>>If you pour a rose-marrow and talneo potion together, they explode and shatter. Drink one after the other, though, and you're fine! Strange...
Depends on what happens in their innards in the meantime. Maybe we just miss the anguished moans the next morning? :O
V V V V V
https://twitter.com/gs4_tahminarre
Depends on what happens in their innards in the meantime. Maybe we just miss the anguished moans the next morning? :O
V V V V V
https://twitter.com/gs4_tahminarre
KRAKII
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/02/2015 04:44 PM CDT
"My character, a 'shorter than average' human women usually comes out at 220+ pounds when someone WEIGHs her. Yeah... no. She's small in stature and leads an active life. She's in decent shape. Her weight is about double what it should be. (I think its a combination of human race + high strength stat?)" -- Raelee
CONstitution is the primary ingredient for weight, but I think STRength does play into it, too.
CONstitution is the primary ingredient for weight, but I think STRength does play into it, too.
KRAKII
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/02/2015 04:47 PM CDT
I hate walking away from a post for an hour... Dang those meetings with the boss!
.
What I was going to say, though, was "Don't think of your character as the svelte person you see nowadays. Think 'medieval period'. Think 'Rubenesque'. Think 'Rosie the Riveter' (for those weapon-swingers). Think 'Oktoberfest BierGirl' (holding up five 1L steins... in each hand)."
.
What I was going to say, though, was "Don't think of your character as the svelte person you see nowadays. Think 'medieval period'. Think 'Rubenesque'. Think 'Rosie the Riveter' (for those weapon-swingers). Think 'Oktoberfest BierGirl' (holding up five 1L steins... in each hand)."
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
10/06/2015 01:55 AM CDT
<<That's a great quote from Wolfgang Pauli, incidentally.>> DAID
It came to mind because right now I'm taking Wolfgang Ketterle's MITx course sequence on atomic and optical physics.
It has already helped me understand Conan O'Brien and Jim Carrey talking about resonance in Penning traps.
<<Some of it related to 'physics' while others were more perception-based, etc.>>
Something else to consider is that we have some historical knowledge spanning 100,000 years, and the occasional temporal distortion providing glimpses over the time range, but there are no hard statements of climate variations over that time period. There have certainly been very long periods of time in Earth history where the world was too warm to have ice caps at all, but we have a glacier not far from the Landing and arctic cold all the way north.
In contrast, the forest line in the United States began down in the South 10,000 years ago, and gradually moved upwards into Canada over several millennia as the glaciers receded. Something like that would be a very visible change in the living memory of Elves, where we know some of the Argent Mirrors lived on the order of 5,000 years. That's long enough for "hunter gatherer" societies to transform into riverine cultures and agro-pastoralists.
One thing that stood out to me in the religious lore is that Nagothyrm was described as having the DragonSpine as relative foothills at its base, which would require it to be in the north, but the land is described as mild in climate with tall waterfalls and "banks of ferns as tall as oak trees." Unless it was where the Southron Wastes are now, annihilated in the Ur-Daemon War. The visions of Mount Aenatumgana showing the construction of the Drake's Shrine depict a violently cold climate up there at the time.
<<I did a previous analysis of how ridiculous the lunar systems are (and my wife was mocking the star lore as well in the OP):>>
We know from DragonRealms that there are 13 planets in the solar system, with Elanthia being #6 from the single star. (Their constellations are more elaborate because they have a profession focused on celestial bodies: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Star_chart .) Only the first one seems explicitly "molten", but most of them have to be out of the habitable zone. I do not think there is any indication of the relative masses of the planets, whether any of them are gas giants or super-earths. It is difficult to say what the variation should be in the orbital eccentricity, or the apsidal and axial precessions, but it is hard to believe Elanthia is a perfect sphere in a perfect circle with everything balancing just so.
The I.C.E. Age lore was kind of absurdly specific about the details. Here's the data: http://clarn.celeonet.fr/wp-content/uploads/shadow_world_aide_de_jeu_donnees_generales.pdf
I was told once that someone tried to simulate this lunar system with a computer, and of course, it was completely unstable. [Liabo] had an orbit of 70 days, [Lornon] was actually on a polar orbit, there was a fifth moon twice as large as Lornon called Varin. The obvious objection is that the world was on the edge of an interdimensional rift, and the flows of essence came from another universe interacting with our own system in some complex way. But even that excuse stops working more than 200,000 years ago for that timeline.
Something I just noticed: In the modern lore "Lornon's Eve" is when Lornon is at its "zenith" (for our continent?), once a year on Eorgaen 31st, whereas it orbits Elanthia once every month. The zenith wording is a hold over from the old lore, where it was called the Night of the Third Moon. Except there was no pretense of it happening once per year, because that makes no sense. I'm guessing they confused it with something like a full moon coinciding with perigee, though the blood red could be lunar eclipse related.
It came to mind because right now I'm taking Wolfgang Ketterle's MITx course sequence on atomic and optical physics.
It has already helped me understand Conan O'Brien and Jim Carrey talking about resonance in Penning traps.
<<Some of it related to 'physics' while others were more perception-based, etc.>>
Something else to consider is that we have some historical knowledge spanning 100,000 years, and the occasional temporal distortion providing glimpses over the time range, but there are no hard statements of climate variations over that time period. There have certainly been very long periods of time in Earth history where the world was too warm to have ice caps at all, but we have a glacier not far from the Landing and arctic cold all the way north.
In contrast, the forest line in the United States began down in the South 10,000 years ago, and gradually moved upwards into Canada over several millennia as the glaciers receded. Something like that would be a very visible change in the living memory of Elves, where we know some of the Argent Mirrors lived on the order of 5,000 years. That's long enough for "hunter gatherer" societies to transform into riverine cultures and agro-pastoralists.
One thing that stood out to me in the religious lore is that Nagothyrm was described as having the DragonSpine as relative foothills at its base, which would require it to be in the north, but the land is described as mild in climate with tall waterfalls and "banks of ferns as tall as oak trees." Unless it was where the Southron Wastes are now, annihilated in the Ur-Daemon War. The visions of Mount Aenatumgana showing the construction of the Drake's Shrine depict a violently cold climate up there at the time.
<<I did a previous analysis of how ridiculous the lunar systems are (and my wife was mocking the star lore as well in the OP):>>
We know from DragonRealms that there are 13 planets in the solar system, with Elanthia being #6 from the single star. (Their constellations are more elaborate because they have a profession focused on celestial bodies: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Star_chart .) Only the first one seems explicitly "molten", but most of them have to be out of the habitable zone. I do not think there is any indication of the relative masses of the planets, whether any of them are gas giants or super-earths. It is difficult to say what the variation should be in the orbital eccentricity, or the apsidal and axial precessions, but it is hard to believe Elanthia is a perfect sphere in a perfect circle with everything balancing just so.
The I.C.E. Age lore was kind of absurdly specific about the details. Here's the data: http://clarn.celeonet.fr/wp-content/uploads/shadow_world_aide_de_jeu_donnees_generales.pdf
I was told once that someone tried to simulate this lunar system with a computer, and of course, it was completely unstable. [Liabo] had an orbit of 70 days, [Lornon] was actually on a polar orbit, there was a fifth moon twice as large as Lornon called Varin. The obvious objection is that the world was on the edge of an interdimensional rift, and the flows of essence came from another universe interacting with our own system in some complex way. But even that excuse stops working more than 200,000 years ago for that timeline.
Something I just noticed: In the modern lore "Lornon's Eve" is when Lornon is at its "zenith" (for our continent?), once a year on Eorgaen 31st, whereas it orbits Elanthia once every month. The zenith wording is a hold over from the old lore, where it was called the Night of the Third Moon. Except there was no pretense of it happening once per year, because that makes no sense. I'm guessing they confused it with something like a full moon coinciding with perigee, though the blood red could be lunar eclipse related.
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 12:25 PM CDT
I have been cranking the numbers and making formal comparison charts between DragonRealms and GemStone, figuring out the inconsistencies in the moon lores especially. The current GemStone lore document was released relatively close to the GSIV transition, if I remember correctly, and obviously DragonRealms was released over half a decade earlier. The OOC notes claim Makiri was the moon that blew up, that Liabo is Katamba, and Lornon is Yavash. This turns out to be problematic.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/DragonRealms#Comparisons
This bothered me because when DragonRealms was developed, [Makiri] was not a satellite of [Liabo], only [Tilaok] (40 mile diameter) was orbiting another moon. So the mythical story of a moon egg hatching and the dragon burning what we call Liabo would have made sense for [Tilaok], whereas [Makiri] was actually larger and much further away. [Makiri], [Lornon], and [Tilaok] were all probably captured asteroids in the I.C.E. Age lore. Varin was closest and had volcanism from tidal forces.
More seriously, the third moon in the time DragonRealms is set is even closer than the one we assume is Liabo (Katamba), and does not exist in GemStone IV. Somehow Elanthia gains a moon if DragonRealms really is in the future. As far as I can tell, Katamba has no satellite of its own, which is fine because Tilaok should get ripped out of its orbit anyway from gravity. (In the I.C.E. Age lore this is covered because the Lords of [Liabo] totally screw with the physics of [Liabo] with their magical power.)
The biggest difference is that Elanthia in the time of DR has a 6 hour day, meaning it is spinning four times faster on its axis compared to GemStone IV. Ordinarily, this would imply that DR is very, very far in the past from GS. However, DR has very specific numbers for the rising and setting times of the moons, which imply the moons have retrograde orbits. (In other words, the moons go in the opposite direction of the spin of Elanthia, making them rise a handful of minutes earlier each day.)
That would mean over obscene amounts of time the moons will get closer to Elanthia and make it spin faster from tidal forces. Their sidereal months turn out to be roughly the same as what I calculated for the orbital periods. I used that to calculate the orbital radius of the moons, assuming that Elanthia has roughly the same mass as Earth. It turns out that Katamba (supposedly Liabo) and Yavash (supposedly Lornon) are extremely close to each other. The other problem is that Liabo is significantly closer in GemStone than Katamba is DragonRealms, which is backwards if the orbit is retrograde and DragonRealms is in the extremely distant future with accelerated days.
Basically, something extremely weird had to have happened at some point, changing the moon situation entirely. It would have to be magic on massive scales. This is not even touching other issues like Lornon is not supposed to be asteroid sized, so if it were big and that much closer you would have things like enormous ocean tides.
- Xorus' player
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/DragonRealms#Comparisons
This bothered me because when DragonRealms was developed, [Makiri] was not a satellite of [Liabo], only [Tilaok] (40 mile diameter) was orbiting another moon. So the mythical story of a moon egg hatching and the dragon burning what we call Liabo would have made sense for [Tilaok], whereas [Makiri] was actually larger and much further away. [Makiri], [Lornon], and [Tilaok] were all probably captured asteroids in the I.C.E. Age lore. Varin was closest and had volcanism from tidal forces.
More seriously, the third moon in the time DragonRealms is set is even closer than the one we assume is Liabo (Katamba), and does not exist in GemStone IV. Somehow Elanthia gains a moon if DragonRealms really is in the future. As far as I can tell, Katamba has no satellite of its own, which is fine because Tilaok should get ripped out of its orbit anyway from gravity. (In the I.C.E. Age lore this is covered because the Lords of [Liabo] totally screw with the physics of [Liabo] with their magical power.)
The biggest difference is that Elanthia in the time of DR has a 6 hour day, meaning it is spinning four times faster on its axis compared to GemStone IV. Ordinarily, this would imply that DR is very, very far in the past from GS. However, DR has very specific numbers for the rising and setting times of the moons, which imply the moons have retrograde orbits. (In other words, the moons go in the opposite direction of the spin of Elanthia, making them rise a handful of minutes earlier each day.)
That would mean over obscene amounts of time the moons will get closer to Elanthia and make it spin faster from tidal forces. Their sidereal months turn out to be roughly the same as what I calculated for the orbital periods. I used that to calculate the orbital radius of the moons, assuming that Elanthia has roughly the same mass as Earth. It turns out that Katamba (supposedly Liabo) and Yavash (supposedly Lornon) are extremely close to each other. The other problem is that Liabo is significantly closer in GemStone than Katamba is DragonRealms, which is backwards if the orbit is retrograde and DragonRealms is in the extremely distant future with accelerated days.
Basically, something extremely weird had to have happened at some point, changing the moon situation entirely. It would have to be magic on massive scales. This is not even touching other issues like Lornon is not supposed to be asteroid sized, so if it were big and that much closer you would have things like enormous ocean tides.
- Xorus' player
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
LUXELLE
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 02:19 PM CDT
Xorus:
DR's time happens at that 4x multiplier not because the world spins faster, but because the decision was made in beta to have game time move at that speed for playing reasons. Daytime/Nightime and Moons matter a great deal more in DR, and the GMs did not want to have people who lived (wherever) be at a significant disadvantage because of this.
The actual TIME in Elanthia in DR just doesn't have the same 1:1 comparison that GS has. So I think that you can dispense with the time thing as anything significant in the scope of the evolution of the world.
Now ... moons.
I have been a little confused over the history of the moons, too. In my case, I had to learn YET ANOTHER set of names for the SAME moons when I returned to GS. I fail at this a lot. Luxie has uttered the names Orhan, Tlilok, and Charon several times aloud in GS. If someone asks, then she has to clarify it and ... she tells them in her little village in the sticks that's the local name for "The Great Moon" or "The Dark Moon" or "The Flamedancer" ... and everyone understands. :)
In GS2 there was no moon, officially. We all just presumed there was ONE like the earth's real moon.
In GS3 we were gifted with the 5 moons of the ICE AGE. (I've spent more time under these than the current GS4 ones.)
When it was De-Iced, one of the moons fell ... I always thought that was Varin. Now there are 4 moons, but the last almost 2 years are the first time I've had to learn them.
When DR came along, the lore was that Grazhir hatched, or fell. I thought this was Mikori.
When I made my little moon chart, I was playing DR. I found LOADS more information about the transitions and changes of the moons to DR in the GS documentation online. There's just nothing in the DR stuff that addresses it.
So let me go back to my roots and remember how I came to these conclusions about which moons became what, and where.
DR's time happens at that 4x multiplier not because the world spins faster, but because the decision was made in beta to have game time move at that speed for playing reasons. Daytime/Nightime and Moons matter a great deal more in DR, and the GMs did not want to have people who lived (wherever) be at a significant disadvantage because of this.
The actual TIME in Elanthia in DR just doesn't have the same 1:1 comparison that GS has. So I think that you can dispense with the time thing as anything significant in the scope of the evolution of the world.
Now ... moons.
I have been a little confused over the history of the moons, too. In my case, I had to learn YET ANOTHER set of names for the SAME moons when I returned to GS. I fail at this a lot. Luxie has uttered the names Orhan, Tlilok, and Charon several times aloud in GS. If someone asks, then she has to clarify it and ... she tells them in her little village in the sticks that's the local name for "The Great Moon" or "The Dark Moon" or "The Flamedancer" ... and everyone understands. :)
In GS2 there was no moon, officially. We all just presumed there was ONE like the earth's real moon.
In GS3 we were gifted with the 5 moons of the ICE AGE. (I've spent more time under these than the current GS4 ones.)
When it was De-Iced, one of the moons fell ... I always thought that was Varin. Now there are 4 moons, but the last almost 2 years are the first time I've had to learn them.
When DR came along, the lore was that Grazhir hatched, or fell. I thought this was Mikori.
When I made my little moon chart, I was playing DR. I found LOADS more information about the transitions and changes of the moons to DR in the GS documentation online. There's just nothing in the DR stuff that addresses it.
So let me go back to my roots and remember how I came to these conclusions about which moons became what, and where.
KRAKII
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 02:33 PM CDT
Realize that the 6-hour 'day' over there is probably nearly completely due to the existence of the Moon Mage profession. In order to allow for them to see different effects in a reasonable amount of play-time, they have to have the shorter day.
KRAKII
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 02:36 PM CDT
Bah. I hate long phone calls that I have to actually pay attention to.
.
"Yeah. What she said." :)
.
"Yeah. What she said." :)
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 05:23 PM CDT
<<DR's time happens at that 4x multiplier not because the world spins faster, but because the decision was made in beta to have game time move at that speed for playing reasons.>>
I understand what you guys are saying. The issue I would have with that is that the multiplier starts at the hour level. 1 second is not 0.25 seconds, 1 minute is not 15 seconds. When they calculated their moon phases (the orbital period) the equation was based on 60 minutes per hour rather than 15 minutes. Or put in another way, the equation could have been 15 minutes per hour, but their numbers require Elanthia to have 24 hours at 15 minutes per hour rather than 6 hours. Xibar is traveling at 13 degrees per day, but under the time compression it would have to be 52 degrees per day. That has observational consequence regardless of the time convention.
In other words, if we allow it to just be an OOC time compression convention, Xibar needs to cycle every 7 days in D.R. time rather than 28 days. Conversely, if it is really taking 28 days, the rise and set times are wrong. The actual speed in space of Xibar within the game is 7 days of seconds when Elanthia spins 28 times.
Now, if I assume those days are supposed to be actual days of time, it changes the orbital distances. Liabo becomes much, much further away in DragonRealms, and Lornon is farther away rather than closer. That requires Elanthia to have significantly longer days, because the planet would be spinning much slower. The orbits in D.R. would still be retrograde because of the set/rise times, which would require DragonRealms to be set in the very distant past barring some magical intervention.
With Grazhir there is no reason it can't have been Mikori, it's just that as far as I can tell Tlilok is missing. The third moon orbits Elanthia rather than Orhan/Liabo.
- Xorus' player
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
I understand what you guys are saying. The issue I would have with that is that the multiplier starts at the hour level. 1 second is not 0.25 seconds, 1 minute is not 15 seconds. When they calculated their moon phases (the orbital period) the equation was based on 60 minutes per hour rather than 15 minutes. Or put in another way, the equation could have been 15 minutes per hour, but their numbers require Elanthia to have 24 hours at 15 minutes per hour rather than 6 hours. Xibar is traveling at 13 degrees per day, but under the time compression it would have to be 52 degrees per day. That has observational consequence regardless of the time convention.
In other words, if we allow it to just be an OOC time compression convention, Xibar needs to cycle every 7 days in D.R. time rather than 28 days. Conversely, if it is really taking 28 days, the rise and set times are wrong. The actual speed in space of Xibar within the game is 7 days of seconds when Elanthia spins 28 times.
Now, if I assume those days are supposed to be actual days of time, it changes the orbital distances. Liabo becomes much, much further away in DragonRealms, and Lornon is farther away rather than closer. That requires Elanthia to have significantly longer days, because the planet would be spinning much slower. The orbits in D.R. would still be retrograde because of the set/rise times, which would require DragonRealms to be set in the very distant past barring some magical intervention.
With Grazhir there is no reason it can't have been Mikori, it's just that as far as I can tell Tlilok is missing. The third moon orbits Elanthia rather than Orhan/Liabo.
- Xorus' player
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
KANDOR
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 07:58 PM CDT
Is it still reasonable to believe the Elanthia of DragonRealms is the same as the Elanthia of GemStone? I recall the old background info and a lot of hearsay on the subject, but the professions are mostly different, magic is entirely different, the gods are different, the lands are different, the rocks and metals things are made of are different. Things that would stand the test of thousands or millions of years are different. Some weird parallels remain, like both having empaths, but these seem few and far between now.
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/22/2016 08:13 PM CDT
<<Is it still reasonable to believe the Elanthia of DragonRealms is the same as the Elanthia of GemStone?>>
I will have to try to re-calculate the numbers both ways and make a second table, the issue is how to handle the discontinuity in the time compression. Beyond that I think it would make more sense to just have DragonRealms be some kind of parallel universe. The details just do not add up without absurd levels of outside intervention.
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
I will have to try to re-calculate the numbers both ways and make a second table, the issue is how to handle the discontinuity in the time compression. Beyond that I think it would make more sense to just have DragonRealms be some kind of parallel universe. The details just do not add up without absurd levels of outside intervention.
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/23/2016 01:10 PM CDT
Here's another example: 1 year in DragonRealms is 400 days. I interpreted that as their calendar being arbitrary because it comes from multiplying by powers of ten off the base unit of a week, which is obviously rooted in the OOC fact that a "week" over there equals 1 Earth day. The solar year in GemStone is 365 days. It would take trillions of years for the orbit of Elanthia to change by the 6 million miles or so needed to make the solar year naturally change by that much in actuality.
Though a month works out to being 40 days which is the sidereal month for Yavash, so my assumption would be that IC their weeks and months are based on a lunar calendar. I do not know how the seasons synch with the calendar in DragonRealms. If the world got smashed with a moon it might have changed the tilt of its axis.
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
Though a month works out to being 40 days which is the sidereal month for Yavash, so my assumption would be that IC their weeks and months are based on a lunar calendar. I do not know how the seasons synch with the calendar in DragonRealms. If the world got smashed with a moon it might have changed the tilt of its axis.
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
LUXELLE
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/23/2016 01:35 PM CDT
| My chart of the Moons of Elanthia Through The Ages |
| The ICEage | de-ICEd/GS4 | DragonRealms |
| Orhan | Liabo | Katamba (black) |
| Charon | Lornon | Yavash (red) |
| Tlilok | Tilaok | Xibar (blue) |
| Mikori | Makiri | Grazhir (fallen) |
| Varin | {splat} | n/a |
I put this together in 2012 when I returned to DR in an effort to understand some of the continuity of the world of Elanthia. There are technical deets for all the DR Moons at the DRwiki. The very mana that the moon mages use comes from the phases and positions of the DR Moons, so ... in some ways they are pretty well documented. In others, though - not so much.
Note: the de-ICING lore and the DR lore pretty much had to be developed at the same time.
Like you, I found Tlilok and Xibar to be the confusing points in this "big picture".
* Tilaok is small, fiery colored, and orbits Liabo
* Xibar is the smallest moon, is blue, and orbits Elanthia.
In the cataclysm that became DR's core lore of the Dragon Hatching From A Moon, Liabo was scorched to black, and we lost a moon, Makiri, which (conveniently) is described as being egg-like.
More hints about the changes to the other moons were gleaned from the official documentation in the GS pages of the web site:
https://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/moons.asp
And there we learn that Tilaok is fiery-colored because of its atmosphere. Which could have easily been stripped when the whole egg-hatching thing went down. The cataclysm turned beautiful Liabo into a black moon, and Tilaok was front and center for that show. It could have been ripped out of its orbit around the larger moon, and recaptured by Elanthia into an orbit of its own, closer.
But, without the special atmosphere, the thing is a frozen ... silvery blue ... moon.
There, that's my logic from a storyline point of view, without any physics, time, or astronomical computations. :) Is there anything that says it? Not really.
Could a comet have streaked in, hit Makiri into a billion pieces (the fall of Grazhir), vaporized Tilaok into nothing (eradicating it from history and lore), and then settled into orbit to become Xibar, the frozen blue moon?
Sure ... but there's nothing that says that, either. That sounds like it might have been an even bigger cataclysm.
I think only the GMs know for sure.
The Moons of Elanthia have always held a special interest to my characters, thank you for letting me ramble.
:)
LUXELLE
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/23/2016 01:49 PM CDT
>> Is it still reasonable to believe the Elanthia of DragonRealms is the same as the Elanthia of GemStone? I recall the old background info and a lot of hearsay on the subject, but the professions are mostly different, magic is entirely different, the gods are different, the lands are different, the rocks and metals things are made of are different. Things that would stand the test of thousands or millions of years are different. Some weird parallels remain, like both having empaths, but these seem few and far between now.
Kandor: DR started out as Elanthia of the future. Many of the original tiny things that bound the two games together have been retconned out over the past 10 years in DR, though. A few remain, though, and I'm not even going to list them for fear that I'd be providing a hitlist of things to be deleted. :(
DR is set on a southern continent, so the lands would be different.
Different pantheons ... no issue there in my book; Look how many pantheons have come and gone in only 2,000 years of history on Earth.
Many materials are shared between the two.
Magic ... is magical, I don't even know if it matters that DR magic is used differently. Maybe the nature of it was changed in the great cataclysm?
In the First Elanthia (GS2) ... most all of these things did not exist at all, remember. :) Clerics healed through magic (not empathy at all), there were only 4 professions, etc...
~L.
Kandor: DR started out as Elanthia of the future. Many of the original tiny things that bound the two games together have been retconned out over the past 10 years in DR, though. A few remain, though, and I'm not even going to list them for fear that I'd be providing a hitlist of things to be deleted. :(
DR is set on a southern continent, so the lands would be different.
Different pantheons ... no issue there in my book; Look how many pantheons have come and gone in only 2,000 years of history on Earth.
Many materials are shared between the two.
Magic ... is magical, I don't even know if it matters that DR magic is used differently. Maybe the nature of it was changed in the great cataclysm?
In the First Elanthia (GS2) ... most all of these things did not exist at all, remember. :) Clerics healed through magic (not empathy at all), there were only 4 professions, etc...
~L.
LUXELLE
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/23/2016 02:45 PM CDT
Xorus: DR Seasons are, like the days and months, completely evenly divided. I'm sure that was to help make all the calcs easier. There were some notable exceptions over the years, but I'm pretty sure those anomalies were flat out bugs in code.
A "week" in DR only exists on the books, like an "hour" ... the players do not try to deal with those terms or periods; I never heard a GM try to, either. The two terms were confusing IC words with OOC meanings that were introduced likely for some well-intentioned purpose, and DR got stuck with them.
Players did adopt referring to time in an anlas, which is 30 minutes real-time.
Minutes in DR are roisaen ... and equal to a minute in OOC time. Players adopted this new word, too.
"Days" - _in practical use_ - could mean anything within the gameplay. :( Likewise, "tomorrow" and "yesterday" could also. A player was constantly guessing whether the other player/NPC meant OOC days or the speedy 4x days that were IC.
Ref: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthian_time
Ultimately, the flying of time in DR compared to real time may not be something that computes. Can you look at it without the 4x multiplier and see if it makes sense?
(DR players have had web calendar calculators running on javascript/perl/php for years to get us real times/dates that make sense for players to schedule stuff or refer to dates. There used to be a phases/moon-rise/set of the moons calculator, but it's been offline a while.)
**
A "week" in DR only exists on the books, like an "hour" ... the players do not try to deal with those terms or periods; I never heard a GM try to, either. The two terms were confusing IC words with OOC meanings that were introduced likely for some well-intentioned purpose, and DR got stuck with them.
Players did adopt referring to time in an anlas, which is 30 minutes real-time.
Minutes in DR are roisaen ... and equal to a minute in OOC time. Players adopted this new word, too.
"Days" - _in practical use_ - could mean anything within the gameplay. :( Likewise, "tomorrow" and "yesterday" could also. A player was constantly guessing whether the other player/NPC meant OOC days or the speedy 4x days that were IC.
Ref: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthian_time
Ultimately, the flying of time in DR compared to real time may not be something that computes. Can you look at it without the 4x multiplier and see if it makes sense?
(DR players have had web calendar calculators running on javascript/perl/php for years to get us real times/dates that make sense for players to schedule stuff or refer to dates. There used to be a phases/moon-rise/set of the moons calculator, but it's been offline a while.)
**
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/24/2016 12:48 AM CDT
One of the major ambiguities for me in making this kind of comparison is that I have a very solid knowledge of everything that has been retconned in GemStone IV, but very limited understanding of what was changed when and why with DragonRealms. There is enough left over that it is really obvious to me that DragonRealms was developed at the same time GemStone was being de-ICEd, because some of its lore is even closer to Shadow World than the current lore for GemStone.
It has been a hobby of mine for a long time to crack all of the hidden ICE Age lore and other easter eggs in the Landing region. Lately it has been mostly figuring out all of the literature allusions and language games Kygar hid in his areas, but one thing I noticed is that there is a mural in the mines of Shadow Valley where you see a huge dragon breathing fire on a small planet. There is a subtle prophecy and moon theme there, and its demon looked like a dragon, but that stood out to me.
<<Ultimately, the flying of time in DR compared to real time may not be something that computes. Can you look at it without the 4x multiplier and see if it makes sense?>>
I have done it both ways now.
There are things that do not make sense in both situations, which is realistically what you should expect. They made Liabo unreasonably close to Elanthia in the current GemStone moon lore. Even in the first case Liabo is further away in DragonRealms than it is in GemStone IV, and it is around three times further away in the second case. Elanthia would need to be very far off from having the same hours in a day as it does in the time of GemStone if that happened naturally without magic.
With magic or "divine intervention" it all goes out the window. One of the introductory texts in the Shadow World atlas is an excerpt from a Lord of Essaence speaking crystal talking about the discovery of essence coming from another universe where distance is meaningless and conservation of energy cannot really be defined.
<<Magic ... is magical, I don't even know if it matters that DR magic is used differently. Maybe the nature of it was changed in the great cataclysm?>>
Somewhere on the DragonRealms Wiki I remember reading about another cataclysmic kind of event involving merger/collision with another universe. There is a concept of pollution or corruption of other realities and their alien energies bleeding through into our plane of existence, which causes the nature/behavior of our reality to change permanently. That is much like the Dark Essaence / Unlife concept, and has existed a long time in GemStone in the documentation for Elementals and their planes.
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
It has been a hobby of mine for a long time to crack all of the hidden ICE Age lore and other easter eggs in the Landing region. Lately it has been mostly figuring out all of the literature allusions and language games Kygar hid in his areas, but one thing I noticed is that there is a mural in the mines of Shadow Valley where you see a huge dragon breathing fire on a small planet. There is a subtle prophecy and moon theme there, and its demon looked like a dragon, but that stood out to me.
<<Ultimately, the flying of time in DR compared to real time may not be something that computes. Can you look at it without the 4x multiplier and see if it makes sense?>>
I have done it both ways now.
| (1) One way is allowing 1 second to be 1 second, 1 minute to be 1 minute. Xibar would transit in roughly 600,000 seconds. That's the scenario where Elanthia is spinning four times faster, so it becomes 28 "days" in the way the hour is defined as 15 minutes. The issue is whether Xibar rising 13 minutes earlier each day should be treated as 780 seconds or as 13/15th of an hour which is four times as many seconds if time is just compressed. |
| (2) The second way is assuming 1 second is 0.25 Earth seconds, 1 minute is 15 Earth seconds, and so on. This is the same thing as ignoring the 4x multiplier because everything changes proportionally. Then the times they give for the lunar phases are basically correct, and the orbits of all of the moons are further away than they are in GemStone. |
There are things that do not make sense in both situations, which is realistically what you should expect. They made Liabo unreasonably close to Elanthia in the current GemStone moon lore. Even in the first case Liabo is further away in DragonRealms than it is in GemStone IV, and it is around three times further away in the second case. Elanthia would need to be very far off from having the same hours in a day as it does in the time of GemStone if that happened naturally without magic.
With magic or "divine intervention" it all goes out the window. One of the introductory texts in the Shadow World atlas is an excerpt from a Lord of Essaence speaking crystal talking about the discovery of essence coming from another universe where distance is meaningless and conservation of energy cannot really be defined.
<<Magic ... is magical, I don't even know if it matters that DR magic is used differently. Maybe the nature of it was changed in the great cataclysm?>>
Somewhere on the DragonRealms Wiki I remember reading about another cataclysmic kind of event involving merger/collision with another universe. There is a concept of pollution or corruption of other realities and their alien energies bleeding through into our plane of existence, which causes the nature/behavior of our reality to change permanently. That is much like the Dark Essaence / Unlife concept, and has existed a long time in GemStone in the documentation for Elementals and their planes.
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
LUXELLE
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/24/2016 02:18 AM CDT
>> Somewhere on the DragonRealms Wiki I remember reading about another cataclysmic kind of event involving merger/collision with another universe. There is a concept of pollution or corruption of other realities and their alien energies bleeding through into our plane of existence, which causes the nature/behavior of our reality to change permanently. That is much like the Dark Essaence / Unlife concept, and has existed a long time in GemStone in the documentation for Elementals and their planes.
This sounds like it might be the Lyras (huge horrible necromancer) thing and the Barrier that protected Elanthia from the horrors of Lyras. It was introduced around the time of the War with Sorrow, and the adding of a couple new races. (1999ish) I was never clear if this was supposed to have been another plane, a place, or some parallel universe thing. I was gone for the finale (hopefully...) in 2008/2009, and when I returned to DR, there were precious few people who could recount the details of all of that to me.
There are first person accounts from people during the 1999ish dates at the Wren's Nest in the archives if you wanted to read them.
Do you know there's a pub in DR dedicated to Kygar? It makes me a little weepy every time I visit, but I always do. https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Kygar%27s_Pub
Rog is the barkeep, and there are two cats, Samantha and Tobias, pretty sure are their names.
I would tell everyone the place was named for a famous bard... (and nobody ever questioned me about that, good thing, I didn't really have an IC answer!)
:sniffle:
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/24/2016 03:08 AM CDT
<<Do you know there's a pub in DR dedicated to Kygar? It makes me a little weepy every time I visit, but I always do.>>
I did not know! Bonespear Tower is a Kygar memorial. It has a grave marker with his name on it and a Dwarf ghost that appears and disappears.
I've figured out that the creatures around Foggy Valley are all meaningful in other languages. (e.g. Vesperti and Pra'eda are Latin.)
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
I did not know! Bonespear Tower is a Kygar memorial. It has a grave marker with his name on it and a Dwarf ghost that appears and disappears.
I've figured out that the creatures around Foggy Valley are all meaningful in other languages. (e.g. Vesperti and Pra'eda are Latin.)
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
KRAKII
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/25/2016 09:44 AM CDT
"Dwarf ghost" -- Xorus
Which is hysterical, given the size of the guy. :)
Which is hysterical, given the size of the guy. :)
INIQUITY
Re: Let's Get Physical
07/26/2016 05:26 AM CDT
<<Which is hysterical, given the size of the guy. :)>> - Krakii
The demon is about 20 feet tall, though. :)
I'm guessing "Bonespear" is a play off "Shakespeare".
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
The demon is about 20 feet tall, though. :)
I'm guessing "Bonespear" is a play off "Shakespeare".
>Level: 46
>Strongest foe vanquished: an infernal lich
KRAKII
Re: Let's Get Physical
08/16/2016 02:23 PM CDT
Some more insights for you, in the 'comparative history' department:
By: HJ-ERIC
Re: Hey there, Hi there, Ho there.
On: 12/9/2004
At: 12:00:44 AM
##: 145
<<That would be the woman (?) Marliese.>>
That's it. And for trivia, here's the storyline that Suz and I wanted to do. It was devised at a time when we thought we would need to "instance" our IFE games to handle growing loads. The storyline was meant to explain IC why the two Elanthian worlds of GS/DR were instanced. If we'd done the instancing, we'd have simply created multiple copies of the same game world but players could move between these worlds at will.
This was devised years ago, so I'm probably munging the details.
Some DR mages were experimenting with moving themselves through time. They had some success by using the souls of various "sensitive" creatures. Marliese proved to be the key in their experiments. However, only Marliese could go through to the past (or future?) through their time spells. However, they could manipulate here while on the other side and kept her trapped in the human body (I believe she was a panther who was forced to be a human woman and the event long ago was to help her get back to her human form...not very sure of this however).
On the GS side of things other evil mages realized what was going on (or thought they did) and started working with the DR mages to complete the spells and allow them to travel through time. Unfortunately, they needed Marliese to help them and they refused to release her until she did as they bid. IOW, they were blackmailing her to help them. Marliese would be tormented by her predicament and be and feared both to help and not help her captors. She didn't understand the consequences of what they were doing but she suspected enough.
So, this event would take place at the same time in DR and GSIII. The event would have had GSIII people walking along and suddenly find themselves in DR. Then they walk into a new room and find themselves back in GSIII. THe same would happen in DR. Other strange oddities would take place as well, such as the wrong creatures behaving the "wrong" way showing up, or odd events in the sky, etc.
Marliese would have interacted with players in both games who'd then try to figure out a solution to her predicament. However, the event depended on cooperation with the other game. IE, it could not be "solved" without knowing what was going on in the other game. The hope was that players would try to help her out and if they figured what was going on, convince Marliese to stop helping the mages (which would result in her death) or help the mages and damn the consequences.
The culmination of the event would have introduced the instancing of our games. IE, Marliese would either have helped them or refused to help. The end result would have been the same, except for the end of the event. IC, the difference between her helping or not would have been something which I don't remember, but IC it'd have been better if she'd sacrificed herself (well, better for Elanthia).
But the consequences either way would have been a shatterd time in which Elanthia was split into multiple "phases" between which players could travel.
That's what I remember. Suz probably would have remembered it differently, God rest her soul (If you remember the fawn in the Vuln quests, think of her as well). This was an event that even after we'd decided to not do instancing I wanted to do. Then again, I had a long list of unfinished business in DR when I left.
The reality is that the new Producers finally got together and decided that DR comes long after GS, which in any case is true even in the scenario above. OF course, it would have been equally true to say that DR came before GS since time itself would have been shattered and time had grown almost meaningless in the context of what came before what.
And a final bit of trivia. The original history of DR did have it happening after GS. We'd even planned to eventually build some hints of GS in some areas that players would eventually reach (this was on the western edge of the same continent DR occupied though the current and more correct version of history has the actual location of GS across the ocean on a completely different continent). We'd envisioned an entirely new game experience after lvl 100, but alas, that's another idea never come to fruition...so many ideas :)
So, none of what I said above is official. It's just one of my favorite "didn't have time for" events that in my mind was incorporated into how I and Suz viewed DR and GS. One of the neat things about our games is their ongoing evolution. Nothing is truly sacred. Nothing is completely clear. There are many histories and viewpoints of history in DR and it lends depth and variety to the story that's really unmatched (except in GS) in any other game out there, period.
When new GMs come in, they bring a new and fresh perspective on the game and its history. They add their perfume to the landscape and enrichen it in ways that one person or a handful of people can't possibly do.
Eric, Director of Development
By: HJ-ERIC
Re: Hey there, Hi there, Ho there.
On: 12/9/2004
At: 12:00:44 AM
##: 145
<<That would be the woman (?) Marliese.>>
That's it. And for trivia, here's the storyline that Suz and I wanted to do. It was devised at a time when we thought we would need to "instance" our IFE games to handle growing loads. The storyline was meant to explain IC why the two Elanthian worlds of GS/DR were instanced. If we'd done the instancing, we'd have simply created multiple copies of the same game world but players could move between these worlds at will.
This was devised years ago, so I'm probably munging the details.
Some DR mages were experimenting with moving themselves through time. They had some success by using the souls of various "sensitive" creatures. Marliese proved to be the key in their experiments. However, only Marliese could go through to the past (or future?) through their time spells. However, they could manipulate here while on the other side and kept her trapped in the human body (I believe she was a panther who was forced to be a human woman and the event long ago was to help her get back to her human form...not very sure of this however).
On the GS side of things other evil mages realized what was going on (or thought they did) and started working with the DR mages to complete the spells and allow them to travel through time. Unfortunately, they needed Marliese to help them and they refused to release her until she did as they bid. IOW, they were blackmailing her to help them. Marliese would be tormented by her predicament and be and feared both to help and not help her captors. She didn't understand the consequences of what they were doing but she suspected enough.
So, this event would take place at the same time in DR and GSIII. The event would have had GSIII people walking along and suddenly find themselves in DR. Then they walk into a new room and find themselves back in GSIII. THe same would happen in DR. Other strange oddities would take place as well, such as the wrong creatures behaving the "wrong" way showing up, or odd events in the sky, etc.
Marliese would have interacted with players in both games who'd then try to figure out a solution to her predicament. However, the event depended on cooperation with the other game. IE, it could not be "solved" without knowing what was going on in the other game. The hope was that players would try to help her out and if they figured what was going on, convince Marliese to stop helping the mages (which would result in her death) or help the mages and damn the consequences.
The culmination of the event would have introduced the instancing of our games. IE, Marliese would either have helped them or refused to help. The end result would have been the same, except for the end of the event. IC, the difference between her helping or not would have been something which I don't remember, but IC it'd have been better if she'd sacrificed herself (well, better for Elanthia).
But the consequences either way would have been a shatterd time in which Elanthia was split into multiple "phases" between which players could travel.
That's what I remember. Suz probably would have remembered it differently, God rest her soul (If you remember the fawn in the Vuln quests, think of her as well). This was an event that even after we'd decided to not do instancing I wanted to do. Then again, I had a long list of unfinished business in DR when I left.
The reality is that the new Producers finally got together and decided that DR comes long after GS, which in any case is true even in the scenario above. OF course, it would have been equally true to say that DR came before GS since time itself would have been shattered and time had grown almost meaningless in the context of what came before what.
And a final bit of trivia. The original history of DR did have it happening after GS. We'd even planned to eventually build some hints of GS in some areas that players would eventually reach (this was on the western edge of the same continent DR occupied though the current and more correct version of history has the actual location of GS across the ocean on a completely different continent). We'd envisioned an entirely new game experience after lvl 100, but alas, that's another idea never come to fruition...so many ideas :)
So, none of what I said above is official. It's just one of my favorite "didn't have time for" events that in my mind was incorporated into how I and Suz viewed DR and GS. One of the neat things about our games is their ongoing evolution. Nothing is truly sacred. Nothing is completely clear. There are many histories and viewpoints of history in DR and it lends depth and variety to the story that's really unmatched (except in GS) in any other game out there, period.
When new GMs come in, they bring a new and fresh perspective on the game and its history. They add their perfume to the landscape and enrichen it in ways that one person or a handful of people can't possibly do.
Eric, Director of Development
