There will be an OOC meeting to discuss all things Dark Elf on Thursday January 17 at 9:00 PM EST.
I will drop a portal outside the Dark Elf Embassy in Ta'Illistim and outside Moot Hall in Landing about 15 minutes ahead of time.
The first bit will be a little about my plans. There will be a list to sign up to ask questions. And hopefully a discussion time for all of us to chat and share thoughts and ideas.
I look forward to seeing you all.
~ Valyrka ~
Ta'Illistim
Elves
Dark Elves
Avawren ~ I have Survival and a knife. I can work it out.
GS4-VALYRKA
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/18/2019 06:17 AM CST
Cleaned up log (by Lylia) of the Dark Elven meeting:
https://sites.google.com/view/alabasterspire/home/resources/2019-ooc-dark-elf-meeting-log?authuser=1
I had to miss some large chunks of the beginning and end. One thing that came up was where there are "huge gaps" in the documentation. In a way that is almost everything --- there is fifty or even a hundred thousand years to fill in, after all --- but a few things came to mind fairly quickly. Other than knowing so little about the valences.
(1) Monarch History (55,000 years ago to Present)
The "Faendryl Empire" document from roughly the year 2002 lists some of the Faendryl monarchs. That account has some deep issues. The society document fixed some of them. Generally, it seems written from a political agenda framework, more or less propaganda or even historical revisionism. It is emphasizing when certain magic like demonic summoning and implosion first happened, trying to make the scandalous things sound out in the open and normal for tens of thousands of years before the Undead War.
This is fine if we recognize it in those terms and limit its claim to factuality. But it is not a history framed in terms those Second Age monarchs would have identified as relevant for themselves. The most serious defect is that it has nine Patriarchs presiding over the Undead War, while the other history documents say it only lasted a few years. It describes the time spent underground as "decades" (with only 3 Patriarchs up to and including the Ashrim War) when it would have been more like 15,000 years.
If there were a document like the Illistim monarchs history ("Linsandrych's Legacy"), that chronological problem should be retconned. There was also only one Patriarch between Rythwier and Korvath, so we should know who he was even if it's just a lot of "presided over the development of the new city and social order."
(2) Underground Period (20,000 to 5,000 years ago)
Related to the first one: Assuming we synch up with the other historical documents on the chronology, there would have been around 15,000 years before the Sea Elf War and building the surface city. We know almost nothing about this underground period, how the society worked or the living situation. Is it abandoned? Repurposed? Is New Ta'Faendryl the surface facet to an older and still occupied underground? There would be an entirely different kind of architecture to it. Is it safer than the surface because of the Maelshyve ruins or veil tear? Are there vast networks of caverns with hostile monsters like mindflayers or otherworldly dangers? Did we colonize other planes?
Is the surface side with its meritocracy and top-down society and new institutions (example: Palestra academies did not exist until after the Sea Elf War but the Palestra are allegedly much older and must have worked differently) just reflective of a new world ideology, and what might be called the old money still has below ground holdings with more aristocratic attitudes? In other words, less meritocratic and more familial wealth and power, with the networking and marriages and patronage and so on.
(3) "Recent" History (past few thousand years)
The "Theory of Governance and Social Order" document is a largely static snapshot of the institutional framework of the society as it exists right now. In terms of within-our-own-lifespans history, the human equivalent of 20th century history, we know almost nothing other than the Third Elven War. Relatively recent history in this sense for elves would be something like the past 1,500 or 3,000 years. In theory this could include things that have happened within the Dhe'nar that Dhe'nar characters would know.
What I would like to see someday is a recent(ish) historical timeline for the subcontinent, analogous and partly overlapping with the Turamzzyrian History timeline (from the year 2000) which goes back roughly 1,500 years. The southern wastelands I think should be the most dangerous and chaotic part of the continent. Such a history would include things like the tribes, the iguanoids, the demons, the demonic hybrids, the Horned Cabal, things that have gone wrong from the ruins of Maelshyve, the interaction (or strained relationship) between the Dhe'nar and Faendryl, the Grot'karesh giantmen. And so on. Because right now that whole region is mostly a question mark in that way.
- Xorus' player
https://sites.google.com/view/alabasterspire/home/resources/2019-ooc-dark-elf-meeting-log?authuser=1
I had to miss some large chunks of the beginning and end. One thing that came up was where there are "huge gaps" in the documentation. In a way that is almost everything --- there is fifty or even a hundred thousand years to fill in, after all --- but a few things came to mind fairly quickly. Other than knowing so little about the valences.
(1) Monarch History (55,000 years ago to Present)
The "Faendryl Empire" document from roughly the year 2002 lists some of the Faendryl monarchs. That account has some deep issues. The society document fixed some of them. Generally, it seems written from a political agenda framework, more or less propaganda or even historical revisionism. It is emphasizing when certain magic like demonic summoning and implosion first happened, trying to make the scandalous things sound out in the open and normal for tens of thousands of years before the Undead War.
This is fine if we recognize it in those terms and limit its claim to factuality. But it is not a history framed in terms those Second Age monarchs would have identified as relevant for themselves. The most serious defect is that it has nine Patriarchs presiding over the Undead War, while the other history documents say it only lasted a few years. It describes the time spent underground as "decades" (with only 3 Patriarchs up to and including the Ashrim War) when it would have been more like 15,000 years.
If there were a document like the Illistim monarchs history ("Linsandrych's Legacy"), that chronological problem should be retconned. There was also only one Patriarch between Rythwier and Korvath, so we should know who he was even if it's just a lot of "presided over the development of the new city and social order."
(2) Underground Period (20,000 to 5,000 years ago)
Related to the first one: Assuming we synch up with the other historical documents on the chronology, there would have been around 15,000 years before the Sea Elf War and building the surface city. We know almost nothing about this underground period, how the society worked or the living situation. Is it abandoned? Repurposed? Is New Ta'Faendryl the surface facet to an older and still occupied underground? There would be an entirely different kind of architecture to it. Is it safer than the surface because of the Maelshyve ruins or veil tear? Are there vast networks of caverns with hostile monsters like mindflayers or otherworldly dangers? Did we colonize other planes?
Is the surface side with its meritocracy and top-down society and new institutions (example: Palestra academies did not exist until after the Sea Elf War but the Palestra are allegedly much older and must have worked differently) just reflective of a new world ideology, and what might be called the old money still has below ground holdings with more aristocratic attitudes? In other words, less meritocratic and more familial wealth and power, with the networking and marriages and patronage and so on.
(3) "Recent" History (past few thousand years)
The "Theory of Governance and Social Order" document is a largely static snapshot of the institutional framework of the society as it exists right now. In terms of within-our-own-lifespans history, the human equivalent of 20th century history, we know almost nothing other than the Third Elven War. Relatively recent history in this sense for elves would be something like the past 1,500 or 3,000 years. In theory this could include things that have happened within the Dhe'nar that Dhe'nar characters would know.
What I would like to see someday is a recent(ish) historical timeline for the subcontinent, analogous and partly overlapping with the Turamzzyrian History timeline (from the year 2000) which goes back roughly 1,500 years. The southern wastelands I think should be the most dangerous and chaotic part of the continent. Such a history would include things like the tribes, the iguanoids, the demons, the demonic hybrids, the Horned Cabal, things that have gone wrong from the ruins of Maelshyve, the interaction (or strained relationship) between the Dhe'nar and Faendryl, the Grot'karesh giantmen. And so on. Because right now that whole region is mostly a question mark in that way.
- Xorus' player
UBERWENCH
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/18/2019 10:27 PM CST
Xorus' player gets to the heart of something I have been saying too about the importance of consensus among players for the big details of the world in which we live. I've taken some flak for saying so, but to me, it's vitally important that characters have some common ground on which to build. While I agree that there is such a thing as overly restrictive roleplay and would never want to see Dark Elven cultures so bound about with documentation that there was no longer room for individual players' choices, documents that establish some consensus about things like town/city sizes, rulers' names, and basic geography are essential elements in a shared world. There are so many details our characters would know that we as players don't, and filling in these broad gaps seems like a good investment.
>Is the surface side with its meritocracy and top-down society and new institutions (example: Palestra academies did not exist until after the Sea Elf War but the Palestra are allegedly much older and must have worked differently) just reflective of a new world ideology, and what might be called the old money still has below ground holdings with more aristocratic attitudes? --- Xorus' player
Oh, I hope we get to find out! That's the kind of thing I mean, the level of detail that can hugely enrich roleplay without doing a lot of damage to established backgrounds. Our characters would know about the nature of New Ta'Faendryl's surface and underground portions as readily as a native English speaker can hear the difference between accents from Birmingham, Alabama and Birmingham, England.
>What I would like to see someday is a recent(ish) historical timeline for the subcontinent, analogous and partly overlapping with the Turamzzyrian History timeline (from the year 2000) which goes back roughly 1,500 years. --- Xorus' player
I'm all for this. The social order and governance document is the backbone of a lot of modern Faendryl RP, but it's a little bit like the Antikythera mechanism: We can see the gears that once made it move, but we don't see it in action or know its full significance. Having some current events (given that the definition of "current" is pretty broad for Elves of any sort) mapped out, even if it's fairly broad, would give us some context for how the social structures in the core document affect Faendryl life in New Ta'Faendryl itself.
Thank you again for hosting the meeting, Valyrka. It's always inspiring to be around others who are passionate about the race and cultures we play. Looking forward to seeing what the next year brings!
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
>Is the surface side with its meritocracy and top-down society and new institutions (example: Palestra academies did not exist until after the Sea Elf War but the Palestra are allegedly much older and must have worked differently) just reflective of a new world ideology, and what might be called the old money still has below ground holdings with more aristocratic attitudes? --- Xorus' player
Oh, I hope we get to find out! That's the kind of thing I mean, the level of detail that can hugely enrich roleplay without doing a lot of damage to established backgrounds. Our characters would know about the nature of New Ta'Faendryl's surface and underground portions as readily as a native English speaker can hear the difference between accents from Birmingham, Alabama and Birmingham, England.
>What I would like to see someday is a recent(ish) historical timeline for the subcontinent, analogous and partly overlapping with the Turamzzyrian History timeline (from the year 2000) which goes back roughly 1,500 years. --- Xorus' player
I'm all for this. The social order and governance document is the backbone of a lot of modern Faendryl RP, but it's a little bit like the Antikythera mechanism: We can see the gears that once made it move, but we don't see it in action or know its full significance. Having some current events (given that the definition of "current" is pretty broad for Elves of any sort) mapped out, even if it's fairly broad, would give us some context for how the social structures in the core document affect Faendryl life in New Ta'Faendryl itself.
Thank you again for hosting the meeting, Valyrka. It's always inspiring to be around others who are passionate about the race and cultures we play. Looking forward to seeing what the next year brings!
--- Lauren, Lylia's player
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/19/2019 11:14 AM CST
<<documents that establish some consensus about things like town/city sizes, rulers' names, and basic geography are essential elements in a shared world.>>
Here are a few other geographical issues that are fairly major. The last one ended up being a lot longer than I intended:
(I.) Dependent Territory (not including any settlement on other valences, given modern Faendryl statement of "Our discipline rules all worlds.")
One thing we have limited knowledge of with geography is the extent to which Faendryl live outside the city but south of the Demonwall.
* "The Turamzzyrian army engages small groups of dark Elves. Initial conflicts are with minor dark Elven soldiers and commoners and pose little resistance to the massive imperial army." - History of the Turamzzyrian Empire (~2000), this and similar lines have commoners and Faendryl soldiers living in the surrounding territory
* "Faendryl reluctance to release the full force of their sorcerous art upon the Humans results in another victory for the imperial army at Gellig." - History of the Turamzzyrian Empire (~2000), Gellig has never been defined and may have been a Faendryl settlement outside New Ta'Faendryl, but could have been a military outpost
* "Previously, even Faendryl who had departed from New Ta'Faendryl for other parts of Elanthia were barred from research in the repository, and their tomes destroyed." - Introduction to the Enchiridion Valentia and Summoning (~2002), old travel ban rules from the city on demon researchers
The continent map suggests there is forest running along the entire eastern coast of the subcontinent. I would have put Maelshyve deep into the wastelands instead of the edge if it had been my call. There is no reason the Faendryl cannot be using that land. I imagine in the past the underground period in close proximity to Maelshyve would have been a willing acceptance of the conditions of political exile to that spot keeping watch over the ruins. This self-limitation should have been discarded after the Sea Elf War.
(II.) Rhoska-Tor
When asked people would probably have different ideas about what Rhoska-Tor is and its spatial extent. Some plausible interpretations:
(1) Rhoska-Tor is the land Despana was occupying regardless of magical or terrain properties
(2) Rhoska-Tor is a special region of the Southron Wastes owing to its magical properties
.....2(A) These properties are because it is an old place of the Ur-Daemon, or else a specific part of the old places of the Ur-Daemon
.....2(B) These properties are because it is specifically where the Ur-Daemon portal collapsed. The Faendryl later tore the seal.
.....2(C) These properties are innate to the area, they're at most corrupted by demonic/undead
.....2(D) These properties were caused solely by Despana (note: this became untenable when the Dhe'nar became official)
(3) Rhoska-Tor is defined by proximity to the Veil tear by the Faendryl and demon summoning in the destruction of Maelshyve
.....3(A) This is the area near-ish to Maelshyve, possibly including New Ta'Faendryl
.....3(B) This is a wide area, perhaps largely the same as the Faendryl borders / dependent territory
(4) Rhoska-Tor is a separate wasteland from the Southron Wastes defined by terrain features
(5) Rhoska-Tor is specifically the site of Despana's keep (Maelshyve), and at most its immediate surroundings like the battle lands
(6) Rhoska-Tor is a loan word with etymological descent from Dhe'nar-si
These are not strictly exclusive, especially in historical terms.
Example: It might be the case that "Rhoska-Tor" is a place on the subcontinent with high concentrations of mana nodes, and that the Ur-Daemon were drawn to it for that reason. They corrupt the land with their presence and dark energy, which causes the various physical effects and the Dark Elven language itself. Despana shows up much later, knowing it is a cursed land. The dark aspects of the place (e.g. this "dark energy"; urglaes; etc.) are useful for making undead. The place she built her keep gets labeled Rhoska-Tor, by herself or others, maybe derives from Dhe'nar-si. The meaning of the word morphs and expands to a wider territory over thousands of years.
With respect to (2) and (4) the Southron Wastes may or may not be considered Ur-Daemon related as well. The fifth one is likely the least familiar. It is essentially saying: "Maelshyve is Barad-dur, the Demonwall is the Ash Mountains (anything past it is Mordor), Rhoska-Tor is the outcropping Barad-dur is built on and maybe Dagorlad or the foothills around Mount Doom, the Southron Wastes are the rest of the plateau of Gorgoroth, and the banshees are Nazgul."
Why might we think that is right? Because a "Tor" is an outcropping or mound or hill, which are mythologically associated with banshees. Keeps are built on mounds, which is why banshees haunt fortifications like castles and towers. Glastonbury Tor is a real world example of this, associated with Arthurian wasteland mythology. It would essentially be a hellmouth for our purposes, and would dovetail with interpretations of pre-existing Veil traumas and the demonic, or perhaps taken literally with fey and the banshees.
You would likely be able to find supporting arguments on both sides for Southron Wastes versus Rhoska-Tor being separate or whole-and-part-of-whole. The "History of the Turamzzyrian Empire" document, for example, describes the Demonwall as reaching the Southron Wastes. But it only goes as far west as Ba'Lathon (Toullaire) which is adjacent only to what the Elanith continent map labels Rhoska-Tor. The Wizardwaste is its own thing and we do not know if environmental complication from its proximity contributed.
(III.) The Scorch
The physical effects of Rhoska-Tor (the Southron Wastes in general?) in prolonged exposure are ambiguous. The documentation is inconsistent on what is responsible for it. In some spots it is blamed on actively tapping into mana foci (nodes) for spells, in some it is exposure to dark energy from the Ur-Daemon War, in some it is Maelshyve/Despana related, in some it is the Faendryl tear in the Veil / summoned demons. The Dark Elven language is magically inborn, which if anything suggests dormant sentient powers.
It was down-played at one point as some way of signaling that only Dark Elves can perceive, but it could also naturally resolve the paradox of the Book of Tormtor allegedly being in the language of the Ur-Daemon. (She could have transcribed it.) The causes of such a change have to pre-date Despana and the Undead War because of the Dhe'nar.
(A) Mana Focus/Maelshyve Proximity: "In the aftermath of the Undead War, the Faendryl had been banished to the land of Rhoska-Tor, the barren and blasted land where Maelshyve had stood. Life in that place was never easy, for little grew there. Below the surface, however, the Faendryl found extensive networks of caverns. Not only did these provide shelter, but they also contained an unusually large number of mana foci. The Faendryl were able to refine their already-considerable talent for magic. This helped them survive. Slowly, the Faendryl began to change. Their features became even finer and sharper. Those living in the deepest caverns, those closest to the ruins of Maelshyve, found their skin darkening to a brown or black. As their aptitude for magic increased, they became physically weaker. The Faendryl also became increasingly bitter towards the other Elven houses." - History of Elanthia (1996)
(B) Dark Energy: "The dark essence that had been left behind by the Ur-Daemon War not only tainted the appearance and psyche of the Dhe'nar, but it also had a powerful effect on the flows of magic in the region." - History of the Dhe'nar (later 1990s; made official in roughly 2002)
(C) Caused by Maelshyve Implosion: "Decades passed in the dark of the caverns, and the Faendryl learned to survive. With the magic from the many mana foci they coaxed plants from the lifeless soil, sped the growth of herds of livestock. In the pride of their triumph over certain death, the obvious twisting of the life they had created went unnoticed. Each rolton, velnalin and cow was laced with the energies seeping from the unhealed tear in the Veil. Each plant grew from magics tainted with the mana of the demons they continued to summon to plant their crops. They lived in the caves that honeycombed the area beneath fallen Maelshyve, and the forces left behind sculpted the Faendryl features to finer, sharper lines, darker skin, and physically weaker vessels with greater capacities for magic." - History of the Faendryl Empire (roughly 2002)
(D) Mana Foci: "When the first elves settled in Rhoska-Tor, the mana foci in the surrounding land tainted their physical bodies and changed their appearance. For instance, their ears became more sharply defined, giving them the ability to hear a varying degree of different tonal ranges not audible to other elves, and they found their tongues were able to make new, unique sounds. This new race, dark elves, learned to draw upon the powers of the mana flows to increase their arcane potential. But tapping into this power did something more: it gave them an innate knowledge of a tongue never heard before." - Dark Elven Languages document (2008)
(E) Mana Foci: "Dark elves can be distinguished by their sharper features and usually dark brown or black skin color. This anomaly with Dark Elven skin can be attributed to the mana foci in Rhoska-Tor where they were exiled to after the Undead War. ... Did you know? Often times experiments performed by Dark Elven mothers can cause their child to have a lighter pigmentation, accounting for the dozens of light-skinned Dark Elves living in Elanthia today." - Dark Elf racial description (late 1990s; the racial descriptions pages are partly vestigial holdovers of I.C.E. Age racial descriptions)
(F) Ur-Daemon Portal:" "The War lasted one thousand years. The final stand, before the portal to the Ur-Daemons' home plane that Fash'lo'nae had secretly opened upon Elanthia, blasted the landscape for hundreds of miles, leaving it a lifeless wasteland. The Ur-Daemons were gone -- but so were the Drakes. Their numbers had been decimated, and most of those left had been driven insane by fear. The Arkati were servants no longer. Their time on Lornon and Liabo had changed the Arkati, however. Those who state the Lornon Arkati had summoned the Ur-Daemon say that the Liabo Arkati were horrified and appalled by what the others had done. Others say that the differing influences of each moon had changed them."__ - Gods of Elanthia document (1998? 1999/2000?)
This last one is indirectly assuming that the Elves could only have been speaking of the Southron Wastes, given our continent, and the corresponding History of Elanthia where Despana was from the jungles beyond the Southron Wastes and searched the places of the Ur-Daemon. The History of Fash'lo'nae (2008) also references summoning Ur-Daemon on Lornon, and the idea that the moon of the dark gods is a gate world associated with the demonic originates in the I.C.E. history (a setting where collapsing portals can create these kinds of permanent magical catastrophes and corruption with dark power is important.) It is theological interpretation of Lornon making them dark gods rather than idea they were sorted and sent by their personalities. Compare the effect on the dragons to the effect on the giantmen from the front lines at Maelshyve below.
Effects on Other Races:
We do not know much about what exposure or prolonged exposure does to other races. (Depending on how you interpret the origin of banshees, we do know the effect it has on spirits.) We know that long exposure creates Dark Elves, but we do not know if this can be done within an individual, or how many generations. We do not know the short or intermediate run effects on Elves. We may know the short exposure consequences for giantmen to Maelshyve proximity. Keeping others out might be for their own good. It is plausible that gnomes might be outlawed from New Ta'Faendryl for more than security-secrets reasons if, say, it makes them feral and cave gnome like or whatever.
(G) "The people that banded the Hammer Clan were outcasts from T'Kirem and Grishknel Clans. They seemed to have slowly gone mad after the Battle of Maelshyve, becoming more violent, consumed by nightmares, and in some cases totally overcome with a desire to consume blood. This period of "insanity" often lasted a full moon cycle, then slowly lifted. During their madness, they were banished from their Clans. Some died. Most wandered to the Southron Wastes." - Giantkin History document (2001?)
(H) "Each had sustained many injuries, although these seemed to be healing at an abnormally rapid rate. Seeing the elves fall back into infighting and unrest immediately after the battle, the three Wsalamir left them to their bickering and returned home. Unfortunately, of those three, Eahnimaki was the only one to return to his clan well. Mishka had sustained a strangely unhealing wound that continually festered and rotted in her leg, and Eahnimaki frequently carried her. In later years, he went on to be a great leader of the Wsalamir Clan. Mishka's wound never healed. It continued to rot, causing her horrible pain and releasing its toxins into the rest of her body. Whether it was these poisons, the constant pain she was in, or the magics she had been exposed to that drove her insane, no one is certain. Mishka's sanity slowly slipped away, and nothing her Clan did seemed to help. Finally, late one night, she ran off into the mountains. She was never heard from again. Kantoran was consumed by the violence and blood lust that some other post-Maelshyve warriors were, and was therefore banished to the Southron Wastes until the urges left him. He later became one of the original banding members of the Grot'karesh Clan." - Giantkin History document (2001?)
Environmental Effects on Inanimate Materials:
"Despanal is actually a transformation of alabaster, which becomes despanal after it has been exposed to an intense degree of uncontrolled sorcerous magic. ... Despanal can be found in Rhoska-Tor, beneath Old Ta'Faendryl, in New Ta'Faendryl, near the Demonwall in the Turamzzyrian Empire, and in other locations where significant deposits of alabaster have been exposed to strong sorcerous magic. ... Most of the elven cities presume that Despana's magic created despanal, resulting in the name, but the Faendryl believe that their sorcery was responsible for its creation rather than Despana's." - Elanthian Gems document (2003?)
"A major deposit of alabaster once existed beneath Rhoska-Tor, but the magically sensitive stone transforms into despanal when exposed to a high degree of sorcerous magic. Only slight traces of alabaster remain, and those only where veins of mithril or krodera shielded the metal." - Elanthian Gems document (2003?)
"One of the most volatile and rare metals in Elanthia, urglaes is often thought of as the metal the Ur-Daemons used in combat against the Drakes. The only large deposits of the metal are found in ancient, long-dormant veins of lava. The blasted lands around Maelshyve also hold some deposits, and it is thought that Despana herself was very fond of it and perhaps used it in her horrible magical workings." - Elanthian Metals document, cursed metal (2001)
"Ironically, House Faendryl selected the heliodor as its royal jewel thousands of years before their discovery of sorcery and their experimentation with demon summoning. Thirty thousand years ago, when the first heraldic designs were being established, a magnificent sculpture carved from a single piece of heliodor stood in the center of the city of Ta'Faendryl. It depicted Geniselle Anaya Faendryl, the first Matriarch of Ta'Faendryl, kneeling before her son, Yshryth Silvius Faendryl, as he accepted the crown of Ta'Faendryl from her hands. It had been magically enchanted to control the weather around the city of Ta'Faendryl, ensuring that storms were scheduled and never threatened the city. Because of this marvelous feat of Faendryl magic, the Faendryl chose the heliodor as their royal jewel." - Elanthian Gems document. (This is just an aside. This one is interesting because the heliodor section references Geniselle from the "History of the Faendryl" document, but plainly states that the royal jewel was chosen to be heliodor thousands of years before they discovered sorcery and demonic summoning, in spite of thirty thousand years ago being long after that same document claims for it.)
....
This is so much to say we do not really understand "the scorch", but we should know it a lot better. We should know what it does to other races, and if there are taboos and prohibitions. Would Elves actually send an ambassador to reside in New Ta'Faendryl? We know exposure to dead Ur-Daemon "corrupts" or "taints" others from storylines. We know urglaes is cursed and unholy. We have reference to "evil essence" in the History of the Order of Voln (2014), and "dark essence" as well as "the dark magic of the region" from the History of the Dhe'nar (late90s/2002), expressed in relation to the creation and control of the undead. We should know what this is in relation to sorcerous magic.
Similarly, there may have been outlaw or cults or dissidents wandering down there even before Despana without behing Dhe'nar, so there would not necessarily be anything surprising about other "tainted" groups. Whether Dark Elven or whatever else. I'm not sure what information about, for example, "The Collectors" from the wastes exists.
- Xorus' player
Here are a few other geographical issues that are fairly major. The last one ended up being a lot longer than I intended:
(I.) Dependent Territory (not including any settlement on other valences, given modern Faendryl statement of "Our discipline rules all worlds.")
One thing we have limited knowledge of with geography is the extent to which Faendryl live outside the city but south of the Demonwall.
* "The Turamzzyrian army engages small groups of dark Elves. Initial conflicts are with minor dark Elven soldiers and commoners and pose little resistance to the massive imperial army." - History of the Turamzzyrian Empire (~2000), this and similar lines have commoners and Faendryl soldiers living in the surrounding territory
* "Faendryl reluctance to release the full force of their sorcerous art upon the Humans results in another victory for the imperial army at Gellig." - History of the Turamzzyrian Empire (~2000), Gellig has never been defined and may have been a Faendryl settlement outside New Ta'Faendryl, but could have been a military outpost
* "Previously, even Faendryl who had departed from New Ta'Faendryl for other parts of Elanthia were barred from research in the repository, and their tomes destroyed." - Introduction to the Enchiridion Valentia and Summoning (~2002), old travel ban rules from the city on demon researchers
The continent map suggests there is forest running along the entire eastern coast of the subcontinent. I would have put Maelshyve deep into the wastelands instead of the edge if it had been my call. There is no reason the Faendryl cannot be using that land. I imagine in the past the underground period in close proximity to Maelshyve would have been a willing acceptance of the conditions of political exile to that spot keeping watch over the ruins. This self-limitation should have been discarded after the Sea Elf War.
(II.) Rhoska-Tor
When asked people would probably have different ideas about what Rhoska-Tor is and its spatial extent. Some plausible interpretations:
(1) Rhoska-Tor is the land Despana was occupying regardless of magical or terrain properties
(2) Rhoska-Tor is a special region of the Southron Wastes owing to its magical properties
.....2(A) These properties are because it is an old place of the Ur-Daemon, or else a specific part of the old places of the Ur-Daemon
.....2(B) These properties are because it is specifically where the Ur-Daemon portal collapsed. The Faendryl later tore the seal.
.....2(C) These properties are innate to the area, they're at most corrupted by demonic/undead
.....2(D) These properties were caused solely by Despana (note: this became untenable when the Dhe'nar became official)
(3) Rhoska-Tor is defined by proximity to the Veil tear by the Faendryl and demon summoning in the destruction of Maelshyve
.....3(A) This is the area near-ish to Maelshyve, possibly including New Ta'Faendryl
.....3(B) This is a wide area, perhaps largely the same as the Faendryl borders / dependent territory
(4) Rhoska-Tor is a separate wasteland from the Southron Wastes defined by terrain features
(5) Rhoska-Tor is specifically the site of Despana's keep (Maelshyve), and at most its immediate surroundings like the battle lands
(6) Rhoska-Tor is a loan word with etymological descent from Dhe'nar-si
These are not strictly exclusive, especially in historical terms.
Example: It might be the case that "Rhoska-Tor" is a place on the subcontinent with high concentrations of mana nodes, and that the Ur-Daemon were drawn to it for that reason. They corrupt the land with their presence and dark energy, which causes the various physical effects and the Dark Elven language itself. Despana shows up much later, knowing it is a cursed land. The dark aspects of the place (e.g. this "dark energy"; urglaes; etc.) are useful for making undead. The place she built her keep gets labeled Rhoska-Tor, by herself or others, maybe derives from Dhe'nar-si. The meaning of the word morphs and expands to a wider territory over thousands of years.
With respect to (2) and (4) the Southron Wastes may or may not be considered Ur-Daemon related as well. The fifth one is likely the least familiar. It is essentially saying: "Maelshyve is Barad-dur, the Demonwall is the Ash Mountains (anything past it is Mordor), Rhoska-Tor is the outcropping Barad-dur is built on and maybe Dagorlad or the foothills around Mount Doom, the Southron Wastes are the rest of the plateau of Gorgoroth, and the banshees are Nazgul."
Why might we think that is right? Because a "Tor" is an outcropping or mound or hill, which are mythologically associated with banshees. Keeps are built on mounds, which is why banshees haunt fortifications like castles and towers. Glastonbury Tor is a real world example of this, associated with Arthurian wasteland mythology. It would essentially be a hellmouth for our purposes, and would dovetail with interpretations of pre-existing Veil traumas and the demonic, or perhaps taken literally with fey and the banshees.
You would likely be able to find supporting arguments on both sides for Southron Wastes versus Rhoska-Tor being separate or whole-and-part-of-whole. The "History of the Turamzzyrian Empire" document, for example, describes the Demonwall as reaching the Southron Wastes. But it only goes as far west as Ba'Lathon (Toullaire) which is adjacent only to what the Elanith continent map labels Rhoska-Tor. The Wizardwaste is its own thing and we do not know if environmental complication from its proximity contributed.
(III.) The Scorch
The physical effects of Rhoska-Tor (the Southron Wastes in general?) in prolonged exposure are ambiguous. The documentation is inconsistent on what is responsible for it. In some spots it is blamed on actively tapping into mana foci (nodes) for spells, in some it is exposure to dark energy from the Ur-Daemon War, in some it is Maelshyve/Despana related, in some it is the Faendryl tear in the Veil / summoned demons. The Dark Elven language is magically inborn, which if anything suggests dormant sentient powers.
It was down-played at one point as some way of signaling that only Dark Elves can perceive, but it could also naturally resolve the paradox of the Book of Tormtor allegedly being in the language of the Ur-Daemon. (She could have transcribed it.) The causes of such a change have to pre-date Despana and the Undead War because of the Dhe'nar.
(A) Mana Focus/Maelshyve Proximity: "In the aftermath of the Undead War, the Faendryl had been banished to the land of Rhoska-Tor, the barren and blasted land where Maelshyve had stood. Life in that place was never easy, for little grew there. Below the surface, however, the Faendryl found extensive networks of caverns. Not only did these provide shelter, but they also contained an unusually large number of mana foci. The Faendryl were able to refine their already-considerable talent for magic. This helped them survive. Slowly, the Faendryl began to change. Their features became even finer and sharper. Those living in the deepest caverns, those closest to the ruins of Maelshyve, found their skin darkening to a brown or black. As their aptitude for magic increased, they became physically weaker. The Faendryl also became increasingly bitter towards the other Elven houses." - History of Elanthia (1996)
(B) Dark Energy: "The dark essence that had been left behind by the Ur-Daemon War not only tainted the appearance and psyche of the Dhe'nar, but it also had a powerful effect on the flows of magic in the region." - History of the Dhe'nar (later 1990s; made official in roughly 2002)
(C) Caused by Maelshyve Implosion: "Decades passed in the dark of the caverns, and the Faendryl learned to survive. With the magic from the many mana foci they coaxed plants from the lifeless soil, sped the growth of herds of livestock. In the pride of their triumph over certain death, the obvious twisting of the life they had created went unnoticed. Each rolton, velnalin and cow was laced with the energies seeping from the unhealed tear in the Veil. Each plant grew from magics tainted with the mana of the demons they continued to summon to plant their crops. They lived in the caves that honeycombed the area beneath fallen Maelshyve, and the forces left behind sculpted the Faendryl features to finer, sharper lines, darker skin, and physically weaker vessels with greater capacities for magic." - History of the Faendryl Empire (roughly 2002)
(D) Mana Foci: "When the first elves settled in Rhoska-Tor, the mana foci in the surrounding land tainted their physical bodies and changed their appearance. For instance, their ears became more sharply defined, giving them the ability to hear a varying degree of different tonal ranges not audible to other elves, and they found their tongues were able to make new, unique sounds. This new race, dark elves, learned to draw upon the powers of the mana flows to increase their arcane potential. But tapping into this power did something more: it gave them an innate knowledge of a tongue never heard before." - Dark Elven Languages document (2008)
(E) Mana Foci: "Dark elves can be distinguished by their sharper features and usually dark brown or black skin color. This anomaly with Dark Elven skin can be attributed to the mana foci in Rhoska-Tor where they were exiled to after the Undead War. ... Did you know? Often times experiments performed by Dark Elven mothers can cause their child to have a lighter pigmentation, accounting for the dozens of light-skinned Dark Elves living in Elanthia today." - Dark Elf racial description (late 1990s; the racial descriptions pages are partly vestigial holdovers of I.C.E. Age racial descriptions)
(F) Ur-Daemon Portal:" "The War lasted one thousand years. The final stand, before the portal to the Ur-Daemons' home plane that Fash'lo'nae had secretly opened upon Elanthia, blasted the landscape for hundreds of miles, leaving it a lifeless wasteland. The Ur-Daemons were gone -- but so were the Drakes. Their numbers had been decimated, and most of those left had been driven insane by fear. The Arkati were servants no longer. Their time on Lornon and Liabo had changed the Arkati, however. Those who state the Lornon Arkati had summoned the Ur-Daemon say that the Liabo Arkati were horrified and appalled by what the others had done. Others say that the differing influences of each moon had changed them."__ - Gods of Elanthia document (1998? 1999/2000?)
This last one is indirectly assuming that the Elves could only have been speaking of the Southron Wastes, given our continent, and the corresponding History of Elanthia where Despana was from the jungles beyond the Southron Wastes and searched the places of the Ur-Daemon. The History of Fash'lo'nae (2008) also references summoning Ur-Daemon on Lornon, and the idea that the moon of the dark gods is a gate world associated with the demonic originates in the I.C.E. history (a setting where collapsing portals can create these kinds of permanent magical catastrophes and corruption with dark power is important.) It is theological interpretation of Lornon making them dark gods rather than idea they were sorted and sent by their personalities. Compare the effect on the dragons to the effect on the giantmen from the front lines at Maelshyve below.
Effects on Other Races:
We do not know much about what exposure or prolonged exposure does to other races. (Depending on how you interpret the origin of banshees, we do know the effect it has on spirits.) We know that long exposure creates Dark Elves, but we do not know if this can be done within an individual, or how many generations. We do not know the short or intermediate run effects on Elves. We may know the short exposure consequences for giantmen to Maelshyve proximity. Keeping others out might be for their own good. It is plausible that gnomes might be outlawed from New Ta'Faendryl for more than security-secrets reasons if, say, it makes them feral and cave gnome like or whatever.
(G) "The people that banded the Hammer Clan were outcasts from T'Kirem and Grishknel Clans. They seemed to have slowly gone mad after the Battle of Maelshyve, becoming more violent, consumed by nightmares, and in some cases totally overcome with a desire to consume blood. This period of "insanity" often lasted a full moon cycle, then slowly lifted. During their madness, they were banished from their Clans. Some died. Most wandered to the Southron Wastes." - Giantkin History document (2001?)
(H) "Each had sustained many injuries, although these seemed to be healing at an abnormally rapid rate. Seeing the elves fall back into infighting and unrest immediately after the battle, the three Wsalamir left them to their bickering and returned home. Unfortunately, of those three, Eahnimaki was the only one to return to his clan well. Mishka had sustained a strangely unhealing wound that continually festered and rotted in her leg, and Eahnimaki frequently carried her. In later years, he went on to be a great leader of the Wsalamir Clan. Mishka's wound never healed. It continued to rot, causing her horrible pain and releasing its toxins into the rest of her body. Whether it was these poisons, the constant pain she was in, or the magics she had been exposed to that drove her insane, no one is certain. Mishka's sanity slowly slipped away, and nothing her Clan did seemed to help. Finally, late one night, she ran off into the mountains. She was never heard from again. Kantoran was consumed by the violence and blood lust that some other post-Maelshyve warriors were, and was therefore banished to the Southron Wastes until the urges left him. He later became one of the original banding members of the Grot'karesh Clan." - Giantkin History document (2001?)
Environmental Effects on Inanimate Materials:
"Despanal is actually a transformation of alabaster, which becomes despanal after it has been exposed to an intense degree of uncontrolled sorcerous magic. ... Despanal can be found in Rhoska-Tor, beneath Old Ta'Faendryl, in New Ta'Faendryl, near the Demonwall in the Turamzzyrian Empire, and in other locations where significant deposits of alabaster have been exposed to strong sorcerous magic. ... Most of the elven cities presume that Despana's magic created despanal, resulting in the name, but the Faendryl believe that their sorcery was responsible for its creation rather than Despana's." - Elanthian Gems document (2003?)
"A major deposit of alabaster once existed beneath Rhoska-Tor, but the magically sensitive stone transforms into despanal when exposed to a high degree of sorcerous magic. Only slight traces of alabaster remain, and those only where veins of mithril or krodera shielded the metal." - Elanthian Gems document (2003?)
"One of the most volatile and rare metals in Elanthia, urglaes is often thought of as the metal the Ur-Daemons used in combat against the Drakes. The only large deposits of the metal are found in ancient, long-dormant veins of lava. The blasted lands around Maelshyve also hold some deposits, and it is thought that Despana herself was very fond of it and perhaps used it in her horrible magical workings." - Elanthian Metals document, cursed metal (2001)
"Ironically, House Faendryl selected the heliodor as its royal jewel thousands of years before their discovery of sorcery and their experimentation with demon summoning. Thirty thousand years ago, when the first heraldic designs were being established, a magnificent sculpture carved from a single piece of heliodor stood in the center of the city of Ta'Faendryl. It depicted Geniselle Anaya Faendryl, the first Matriarch of Ta'Faendryl, kneeling before her son, Yshryth Silvius Faendryl, as he accepted the crown of Ta'Faendryl from her hands. It had been magically enchanted to control the weather around the city of Ta'Faendryl, ensuring that storms were scheduled and never threatened the city. Because of this marvelous feat of Faendryl magic, the Faendryl chose the heliodor as their royal jewel." - Elanthian Gems document. (This is just an aside. This one is interesting because the heliodor section references Geniselle from the "History of the Faendryl" document, but plainly states that the royal jewel was chosen to be heliodor thousands of years before they discovered sorcery and demonic summoning, in spite of thirty thousand years ago being long after that same document claims for it.)
....
This is so much to say we do not really understand "the scorch", but we should know it a lot better. We should know what it does to other races, and if there are taboos and prohibitions. Would Elves actually send an ambassador to reside in New Ta'Faendryl? We know exposure to dead Ur-Daemon "corrupts" or "taints" others from storylines. We know urglaes is cursed and unholy. We have reference to "evil essence" in the History of the Order of Voln (2014), and "dark essence" as well as "the dark magic of the region" from the History of the Dhe'nar (late90s/2002), expressed in relation to the creation and control of the undead. We should know what this is in relation to sorcerous magic.
Similarly, there may have been outlaw or cults or dissidents wandering down there even before Despana without behing Dhe'nar, so there would not necessarily be anything surprising about other "tainted" groups. Whether Dark Elven or whatever else. I'm not sure what information about, for example, "The Collectors" from the wastes exists.
- Xorus' player
CLUNK24963
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/19/2019 03:49 PM CST
So,
The location and lore of Rhoska-Tor is one of the pieces of Elanthian history that is core to how I played the dwarven character Clunk Like-A-Rock, and to how I currently play the dwarven characters Thuunk LikerRock, and Clunk LikeARockSon (the dwarf of Zul Logoth who forges swords). In the beginning, when asked how Clunk (the father) came to the Landing, he simply said he was a refugee from farther south than anyone had ever been. This was about twenty-five years ago.
For Clunk & Thuunk, this is something they will rarely, if ever, talk about. There are only three characters over that time that I’ve talked directly with about this more expanded aspect. As far as I know, those rather well-known characters are no longer in-game. There are two other characters who have actually heard Thuunk speak Dhe’narsi. All three play to a background of being refugees who moved north to avoid being walled-in on the southern side of the Demon Wall (mostly with elves, too).
Over the last two decades (quarter-century?) I’ve made a point to try to keep up with the ever-changing available lore on Rhoska-Tor and the nearby Maelshyve and New Ta’Faendryl, Sharath, and the Southron Wastes, and on the origins of the undead scourge. This is augmented by the available Human History that mentions the Demon Wall and its location.
First, the map I use for reference is located on the old GS III play.net web-site at https://www.play.net/images/gs3/maps/elanith.jpg. On there, you will see, Rhoska-Tor is actually a mountain, with Maelshyve located nearby. Over time, I’ve developed the opinion that the undead source is actually somewhere to the south and west of Rhoska-Tor, on the southern coast and south of the Southron Wastes, and is associated with the rise of the Dhe’nar city Sharath, after the break between the Faendryl and Dhe’nar, which occurred (according the older GSIII history) near the time Noi'sho'rah helped bring the Dhe’nar into existence as a separate culture of elves.
So, it is strange that a dwarf would know anything of Elven history. The tie-in is this: The culture of Khanshael dwarves derived from a period of dwarven slavery under the Dhe’nar. Over time that particular clan of dwarves became respected as more than slaves because of their skill at forging. Much of Clunk’s youth included exposure to the stories derived from both dwarven and Dhe’nar history. These stories emphasized core teachings that Dwarves are NOT slaves; the true fight is against the Undead; and young races need time to mature. Of note, dwarven cities near Rhoska-Tor are Kherram Olt Dzu and Greetok. Dwarven clans from near the area are the Greetok, the Oltregek, and the wandering Khanshael that evolved from near Sharath.
I think whatever common understanding you bring to the Southern part of the continent should include Maelshyve, Sharath, Rhoska-Tor, the arrival of the undead, and the nearer history of the DemonWall (to mark the eventual northern border of the southern part of the continent). Over the long term, the history of this area is driven by the Ur-Daemon, and the history of being able to summon undeads and demons into Elanith.
The location of the Demon Wall is well documented in the Human histories, and is still today not totally completed.
In the end, as players, we should all be really tolerant of other characters explanations of history, even when our characters are not. In the real-world, any given thing that happens today is subject to different and often-times wildly different interpretations. There (IRL0, those differences usually don't get resolved until we make attempts to understand why we all see it differently.
Please treat this as OOC. Clunk rarely talks about his background. Thuunk might, but usually only if he can treat it as a study of the varying points of view of history. There is no right or wrong when it comes to differences in points-of-view.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/19/2019 04:55 PM CST
I'm not done reading and re-reading Xorus' information, but I want to add to his information about the Grot'karesh as there are other interpretations for what happened to them after Maelshyve in that it was not necessarily a direct reaction to Maelshyve as an environment. https://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/giantman_history/giantkin-clans.asp
Notably --
>>"Several of the clan's members are plagued by horrific visions, while others believe they are cursed in one manner or another."
>>"It seems that after the Battle of Maelshyve some of the participants from Clans T'Kirem and Grishknel - the two clans who were responsible for breaking the front lines of Despana's troops - began to act in rather uncharacteristic manners. They experienced unusually high amounts of violence, hideous nightmares, brutality to kin, and in one or two cases a desire to consume blood. When it was discovered that this was happening, and after multiple attempts to reform their brethren, they were outcast from their clan of origin." (Thus becoming the Grot'karesh) After surviving this, they began to be able to manipulate magic.
>>"Scholars aren't sure what to make of the origins of the Hammer Clan, or their founders. The current topic of debate is whether the mannerisms the giants possessed that started the chain of events was created by the battles (hearing banshee screams over and over, particularly), the demons that the Faendryl summoned, the magics the Faendryl used to destroy the keep, or a combination of the three."
Darcena believes that her family line descended from the Grishknel and T'kirem Clans that were at Maelshyve and upon her family's exposure to the Ur-Daemon presence/magic her clan characteristics and genetics were twisted up into an Ur-Daemon curse. She wouldn't be able to articulate it, but after 17,000ish years of Grot'kresh primarily inbreeding, her blood line became incredibly saturated with the Ur-Daemon influence. She is grateful to the Faendryl for bringing a (momentary) end to Despana and views them as necessary to combat the Ur-Daemons. She does, however, negatively react to banshees... but whether that's because it has an impact on her or because she was raised with stories of how banshees nearly destroyed the world is not known to her or me. Her interpretation is more in line with how Xorus sees things and not on these mini summaries in the giantkin clans document.
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
Notably --
>>"Several of the clan's members are plagued by horrific visions, while others believe they are cursed in one manner or another."
>>"It seems that after the Battle of Maelshyve some of the participants from Clans T'Kirem and Grishknel - the two clans who were responsible for breaking the front lines of Despana's troops - began to act in rather uncharacteristic manners. They experienced unusually high amounts of violence, hideous nightmares, brutality to kin, and in one or two cases a desire to consume blood. When it was discovered that this was happening, and after multiple attempts to reform their brethren, they were outcast from their clan of origin." (Thus becoming the Grot'karesh) After surviving this, they began to be able to manipulate magic.
>>"Scholars aren't sure what to make of the origins of the Hammer Clan, or their founders. The current topic of debate is whether the mannerisms the giants possessed that started the chain of events was created by the battles (hearing banshee screams over and over, particularly), the demons that the Faendryl summoned, the magics the Faendryl used to destroy the keep, or a combination of the three."
Darcena believes that her family line descended from the Grishknel and T'kirem Clans that were at Maelshyve and upon her family's exposure to the Ur-Daemon presence/magic her clan characteristics and genetics were twisted up into an Ur-Daemon curse. She wouldn't be able to articulate it, but after 17,000ish years of Grot'kresh primarily inbreeding, her blood line became incredibly saturated with the Ur-Daemon influence. She is grateful to the Faendryl for bringing a (momentary) end to Despana and views them as necessary to combat the Ur-Daemons. She does, however, negatively react to banshees... but whether that's because it has an impact on her or because she was raised with stories of how banshees nearly destroyed the world is not known to her or me. Her interpretation is more in line with how Xorus sees things and not on these mini summaries in the giantkin clans document.
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/19/2019 05:26 PM CST
Also, just as information for anyone who doesn't know, the Grot'karesh are headquartered out of Kilanirij which is built on the side of Asharikan Mountain in the Southron Wastes west of NTF and south of Tamzyrr. I'm not sure if that means close to Toullaire or somewhere near the Swale in the below linked map. My knowledge on Elanthian history is a grain of sand next to Xorus' Mount Everest.
Speaking to Xorus - as always, correct me where I'm wrong or missing information.
https://gswiki.play.net/images/d/dc/Elanthia.jpg
>"The Grot'karesh Hammer Clan have placed themselves in the most defensible part of the Southron Wastes. Their fortress city, Kilanirij, sits perched on the side of a large mountain south of Tamzyrr and west of the new Ta'Faendryl. The Hammer Clan has made a science of magical fortification here, strong enough that the city walls give a wispy, dark blue glow at night. Construction on the city began shortly after the first group of giantkin was exiled from their clans. Their chieftain, Samarak the Grim, wished to keep the ruins of Maelshyve in view via magic, so they would have the first warning on the coming of the Second Age of Chaos."
>"Samarak decided to build a fortress city in the Wastes to house all those that were coming to join him in his vigil for the Second Age of Chaos. He decided they should be prepared for the onslaught of Despana's second wave, and they would need a capable structure for the libraries he had planned. Samarak hoped to be able to see Despana's next incarnation when it came, but felt the world, and the Hammer Clan, would not be powerful enough to stop her despite constant practice and preparation. Regardless, he and the other outcasts began construction on Kilanirij - a fortress city on the side of Asharikan Mountain. The walls of Kilanirij are covered in protective, strengthening runes, causing the walls to glow a faint dark blue at night."
>"The Grot'karesh clan primarily remains behind the walls of their fortress-city, Kilanirij. Some wander the world, studying at various magical academies like the one at Ta'Illistim. Others simply wander, searching for signs that the Second Age is coming so that they might record the knowledge and send it back to the city."
https://gswiki.play.net/Giantkin_History
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
Speaking to Xorus - as always, correct me where I'm wrong or missing information.
https://gswiki.play.net/images/d/dc/Elanthia.jpg
>"The Grot'karesh Hammer Clan have placed themselves in the most defensible part of the Southron Wastes. Their fortress city, Kilanirij, sits perched on the side of a large mountain south of Tamzyrr and west of the new Ta'Faendryl. The Hammer Clan has made a science of magical fortification here, strong enough that the city walls give a wispy, dark blue glow at night. Construction on the city began shortly after the first group of giantkin was exiled from their clans. Their chieftain, Samarak the Grim, wished to keep the ruins of Maelshyve in view via magic, so they would have the first warning on the coming of the Second Age of Chaos."
>"Samarak decided to build a fortress city in the Wastes to house all those that were coming to join him in his vigil for the Second Age of Chaos. He decided they should be prepared for the onslaught of Despana's second wave, and they would need a capable structure for the libraries he had planned. Samarak hoped to be able to see Despana's next incarnation when it came, but felt the world, and the Hammer Clan, would not be powerful enough to stop her despite constant practice and preparation. Regardless, he and the other outcasts began construction on Kilanirij - a fortress city on the side of Asharikan Mountain. The walls of Kilanirij are covered in protective, strengthening runes, causing the walls to glow a faint dark blue at night."
>"The Grot'karesh clan primarily remains behind the walls of their fortress-city, Kilanirij. Some wander the world, studying at various magical academies like the one at Ta'Illistim. Others simply wander, searching for signs that the Second Age is coming so that they might record the knowledge and send it back to the city."
https://gswiki.play.net/Giantkin_History
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/21/2019 09:24 AM CST
<<but I want to add to his information about the Grot'karesh as there are other interpretations for what happened to them after Maelshyve in that it was not necessarily a direct reaction to Maelshyve as an environment ... Her interpretation is more in line with how Xorus sees things and not on these mini summaries in the giantkin clans document. >> - Darcena
That was why I was italicizing the word "may" with it. Those other purported explanations do not really stand up to reason. In contrast, the Grot'karesh members underwent a "transformation" where their ability with magic was increased, like the Dark Elves. (The giantkin documents were released I think before the Dhe'nar were official and before the Faendryl Empire document.) It says some of the clan members still experience horrific visions. With the Dhe'nar becoming official and the Dark Elven language now defined as somehow unnaturally inborn in descendants, parsimony strongly favors attributing what happened to both races to close proximity to the cursed haunted place itself.
Consider the lines of evidence that would exist on this question:
* Giantmen have been exposed to repeated banshee screams, whichever demons, implosions over the years. They can wander near the post-implosion ruins of Maelshyve, which is known to be an unhealed tear in the Veil. Demons and undead haunt the Southron Wastes. It would be possible to rule things out.
* Despana had living forces exposed to the same stuff, at the same time and same scales. Orcs, humans, minotaurs. (*)
* If exposure to "dark essence" or "demonic" energies, or the undead, has physiological effects we would know a lot about it by now independent of that context.
* We would know whether that is sufficient for making Dark Elves or if there is something unique to Rhoska-Tor that does it. (And we know the effect was stronger the closer they got to the ruins of Maelshyve, and with the Dhe'nar made official we know it pre-dates Despana.)
* We would know from repeated clashing with Despana's hordes whether she had disease-curse undead (e.g. zombie bites in movies) or cursed weapons causing rotting wounds (e.g. what Raznel did to Thadston) or area effects from her hordes rather than Maelshyve and how that contrasts with what happened to the Hammer Clan founders. We would have found however many of these weapons, urglaes devices, and artifacts around her dominion. They would have been used or studied by the Faendryl.
(*) The caveat here is that there'd need to be people paying enough attention to record it. The Grot'karesh story is guessed from common details in oral stories.
<<I'm not sure if that means close to Toullaire or somewhere near the Swale in the below linked map. My knowledge on Elanthian history is a grain of sand next to Xorus' Mount Everest.>> - Darcena
It does not seem to be well defined. The mountains at the intersection between those two lines are the Gattrof Mountains, which is where the Horned Cabal passed through when invading. If Asharikan Mountain and the Kilanirij fortress were there it would have been referenced at some point. There's also no reference of them near Chastonia or the Wizardwaste. It is hard to tell what exists in the way of mountains in that part of the map. The maps have to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when zoomed far out.
I would guess it is one of the mountains further in the Southron Wastes, and all of that is south of Tamzyrr and west of New Ta'Faendryl. Samarak wished to keep Maelshyve "in view via magic", which suggests we cannot use elevation and line of sight to constrain how far west. My own feeling is the "Rhoska-Tor" is way too big on those maps.
- Xorus' player
That was why I was italicizing the word "may" with it. Those other purported explanations do not really stand up to reason. In contrast, the Grot'karesh members underwent a "transformation" where their ability with magic was increased, like the Dark Elves. (The giantkin documents were released I think before the Dhe'nar were official and before the Faendryl Empire document.) It says some of the clan members still experience horrific visions. With the Dhe'nar becoming official and the Dark Elven language now defined as somehow unnaturally inborn in descendants, parsimony strongly favors attributing what happened to both races to close proximity to the cursed haunted place itself.
Consider the lines of evidence that would exist on this question:
* Giantmen have been exposed to repeated banshee screams, whichever demons, implosions over the years. They can wander near the post-implosion ruins of Maelshyve, which is known to be an unhealed tear in the Veil. Demons and undead haunt the Southron Wastes. It would be possible to rule things out.
* Despana had living forces exposed to the same stuff, at the same time and same scales. Orcs, humans, minotaurs. (*)
* If exposure to "dark essence" or "demonic" energies, or the undead, has physiological effects we would know a lot about it by now independent of that context.
* We would know whether that is sufficient for making Dark Elves or if there is something unique to Rhoska-Tor that does it. (And we know the effect was stronger the closer they got to the ruins of Maelshyve, and with the Dhe'nar made official we know it pre-dates Despana.)
* We would know from repeated clashing with Despana's hordes whether she had disease-curse undead (e.g. zombie bites in movies) or cursed weapons causing rotting wounds (e.g. what Raznel did to Thadston) or area effects from her hordes rather than Maelshyve and how that contrasts with what happened to the Hammer Clan founders. We would have found however many of these weapons, urglaes devices, and artifacts around her dominion. They would have been used or studied by the Faendryl.
(*) The caveat here is that there'd need to be people paying enough attention to record it. The Grot'karesh story is guessed from common details in oral stories.
<<I'm not sure if that means close to Toullaire or somewhere near the Swale in the below linked map. My knowledge on Elanthian history is a grain of sand next to Xorus' Mount Everest.>> - Darcena
It does not seem to be well defined. The mountains at the intersection between those two lines are the Gattrof Mountains, which is where the Horned Cabal passed through when invading. If Asharikan Mountain and the Kilanirij fortress were there it would have been referenced at some point. There's also no reference of them near Chastonia or the Wizardwaste. It is hard to tell what exists in the way of mountains in that part of the map. The maps have to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when zoomed far out.
I would guess it is one of the mountains further in the Southron Wastes, and all of that is south of Tamzyrr and west of New Ta'Faendryl. Samarak wished to keep Maelshyve "in view via magic", which suggests we cannot use elevation and line of sight to constrain how far west. My own feeling is the "Rhoska-Tor" is way too big on those maps.
- Xorus' player
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/21/2019 09:57 AM CST
<<On there, you will see, Rhoska-Tor is actually a mountain, with Maelshyve located nearby.>> - Clunk
I think that's taking the maps too literally. Things get moved around between versions. The mountain(s) under the Rhoska-Tor label are not there on the current map.
https://gswiki.play.net/images/d/dc/Elanthia.jpg
The closest I have seen to a geographical description of the immediate area, at least that I can remember at the moment, is the History of the Sylvan Elves document (from around late 2003) saying Maelshyve Keep was located in a valley with wooded slopes. The terrain description sounds inconsistent, perhaps sylvan bias, and I suspect it should mean her hordes were in a valley around the keep (on a tor) rather than the keep itself being built on the low ground surrounded by high ground in every direction.
<<In the real-world, any given thing that happens today is subject to different and often-times wildly different interpretations. There (IRL0, those differences usually don't get resolved until we make attempts to understand why we all see it differently.>>
Yes. But they are not equally credible or well-founded, and the distortions from what they want to be true can be easy to spot. The Dhe'nar want to believe Despana was one of their own because of their religious history, the Faendryl want to believe their changes are because of their own sorcery and not because the Illistim were right about the Ur-Daemon, the Elves want to believe the Faendryl had no prior experience studying this magic prior to the destruction of Maelshyve making it a reckless blind act.
- Xorus' player
I think that's taking the maps too literally. Things get moved around between versions. The mountain(s) under the Rhoska-Tor label are not there on the current map.
https://gswiki.play.net/images/d/dc/Elanthia.jpg
The closest I have seen to a geographical description of the immediate area, at least that I can remember at the moment, is the History of the Sylvan Elves document (from around late 2003) saying Maelshyve Keep was located in a valley with wooded slopes. The terrain description sounds inconsistent, perhaps sylvan bias, and I suspect it should mean her hordes were in a valley around the keep (on a tor) rather than the keep itself being built on the low ground surrounded by high ground in every direction.
<<In the real-world, any given thing that happens today is subject to different and often-times wildly different interpretations. There (IRL0, those differences usually don't get resolved until we make attempts to understand why we all see it differently.>>
Yes. But they are not equally credible or well-founded, and the distortions from what they want to be true can be easy to spot. The Dhe'nar want to believe Despana was one of their own because of their religious history, the Faendryl want to believe their changes are because of their own sorcery and not because the Illistim were right about the Ur-Daemon, the Elves want to believe the Faendryl had no prior experience studying this magic prior to the destruction of Maelshyve making it a reckless blind act.
- Xorus' player
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/21/2019 01:22 PM CST
Thank you for responding, Xorus. I feel like I'm muddling through the thick amounts of lore that we have, especially since it's spread across in-game experiences, official documentation, in-game locations, other characters' contributions, Rolemaster original lore, and references to so many other cultural icons. I apologize for my misconceptions and ignorance and appreciate your time and thoughtfulness.
Location of Rhoska-Tor
My interpretation was:
*2B. Rhoska-Tor is a special region of the Southron Wastes owing to its magical properties created where the Ur-Daemon portal collapsed and where the Faendryl later tore it open. Tearing open this portal is what affected the giantkin (and others).
*3A. Rhoska-Tor is defined by proximity to the Veil tear by the Faendryl and demon summoning int he destruction of Maelshyve and is near-ish to Maelshyve, possibly including New Ta'Faendryl.
In summary, my thoughts were: the Ur-Daemon themselves and their portal tainted the land and twisted the people who come in contact with it. The ripping of the veil and exposure to the mana in this area sped up the effects on the individuals who were on the front lines due to their proximity. The areas where this effect is prominent is Rhoska-Tor.
I understand what you're saying with your explication of #5 though and think that's really interesting.
Separately, I built Darcena around the idea that she has this extreme blood lust from what she calls the "Ur-Daemon curse" and that it causes her to grow extraordinarily hungry. Shocked by her conscious (instilled in her by her adopted parents Oxana and Thraes; whom she believes she killed and ate during a black out from the curse), she would instead heal the people so that she would no longer smell the blood, and then expend mana to heal herself. She believes that healing others is what allows her blood lust to lift, but I intended that it was instead the use of magic (removing it from her body/spirit) that causes her blood lust and insanity to temporarily lift. Therefore, she became addicted to healing others because expending mana allowed her to lower the effects of "her curse." Drinking blood slakes it, but using her mana lifts it (temporarily). She also supposedly senses magical power (and "scents" thereof) in others' blood and is affected by Grishom Stone's blood rain as if getting drunk. It causes her "curse" to intensify. When she's around certain types of magical power, her curse intensifies and she acts more reckless, violent, etc. I'm wondering if this is illogical.
Location of Kilanirij
With this in mind, I would hope it would be around the "W" in Southron Wastes on that map. My reasoning is that the Grot'karesh would want to keep an eye on the Dhe'nar due to their relation to the Book of Tormtor and keep an eye on the ruins of Maelshyve. By physically placing themselves halfway between each, they would have ease to travel to either Sharath or New Ta'Faendryl while also remaining slightly out of the sphere of influence of both. In addition, the Giantkin History document states that the exiled giants wandered the Southron Wastes before the Grot'karesh was banded together by Samarak. They would know about the Dhe'nar. I would reason that they wouldn't only use magic to keep an eye on these cultures, but also just wander the land because that's what Grot'karesh outside of Kilanirij do.
That said, I have no knowledge of the Southron Wastes geography. Is there a zoomed in map anywhere of it, marked with places we've explored/experienced through storylines? Can an official map be made?
The Scorch: Effects of Maelshyve on Other Races
Absolutely. I apologize for not acknowledging that.
My angle in posting the additional information was more that the documentation coming out could perhaps be updated to either disinclude the bit about the Faendryl magic or to include the bit about Maelshyve... Or perhaps a newer document could come out with new information on the Southron Wastes and Dark Elves that includes the Grot'karesh as they are closely tied to both the stories of the Dhe'nar and the Faendryl. Perhaps as cautionary allies of the Faendryl due to the Faendryl's actions during the Undead War. There could also be tension there as they wonder if the Faendryl are going to go too far and try to expand their power and cause another . The Dhe'nar as peerless warriors and perhaps progenitors of the power that Despana acquired in the first place would also put the Grot'karesh in a place of wanting to keep an eye on them.
Do you think the Red Rot was also caused by the proximity to Maelshyve? (aside: I still really like the idea of a post-cap Kalaza hunting ground accessible from Zul Logoth somehow)
Do you think Tordaak Minotaur's extended life was related to Maelshyve?
Timeline of the Undead War
I didn't address this originally, but now I have Questions. Primarily, it's to make sure I'm understanding and reading correctly.
"The Undead War was a difficult time for the Elven Nations, the Faendryl included. Eight Patriarchs watched over the conflict before finally Unsenis Ignaas Faendryl proposed the strike at Maelshyve." - History of the Faendryl
"The halflings arrived in the aftermath of ShadowGuard, and were put to the test against the heinous hordes following Despana. For years they stood with the Elven forces, their own numbers dwindling as the battles took their toll." - History of the Truefolk
"The Undead advance slowed, then stopped. A stalemate was reached, with neither side able to push the other back. Daily charges across the lines of battle brought heavy casualties, but little progress. This state of affairs lasted for years." - History of Elanthia
"For the long, arduous years that the sylvans fought with the elven army, no sylvan other than the Eranishal messengers was allowed to return to Nevishrim. This hardship, over and above the horrors they witnessed on the battlefields, was what survivors of the conflict later claimed was the worst sorrow of fighting in that war." - History of hte Sylvan Elves
The timeline states that the rumors reached the ruling classes in -19,864. Maelshyve was completed by undead in -18,756. Darthiir began recruitment in -15,497. The war began in -15,186. Exile occurred in -15,185.
The recruitment and war dates seem incongruous to me. The timeline seems to be the only document out of line of all the others.
Question 1: Are those the two you are concerned about?
Question 2: Is the timeline the document you're imagining being retconned?
Question 3: If it is the timeline that is primarily causing the incongruities, how would you rewrite it given that Despana rested on her laurels for three thousand years and had a war that lasted "years"?
Tentative proposed timeline that is all kinds of unofficial below. My issue with it is that none of the documentations say that the war lasted generations of the younger races lives, but that could be because the histories were written by elves who wouldn't notice?
Documents read that mention Despana, Maelshyve, or the Undead War:
--Giantkin History
--History of Elanthia (Age of Chaos is -15,000 to 0 and starts with the Undead War)
--History of Fash'no'lae
--History of Leya
--History of Luukos
--History of the Dhe'nar
--History of the Dwarves
--History of the Faendryl
--History of the Minotaurs (allied with Despana)
--History of the Sylvan Elves (claims Battle of Maelshyve is -15,188 and Battle of Harradahn is -15,195)
--History of the Truefolk
--Ilynov Journal (Despana threatens in Olaesta/April 33,710, Taki prepares for battle in Lormesta/January 33,711, survivor returns Eantos/November 33,712 to discuss what happened at ShadowGuard - I have no idea how to translate the years)
--Ta'Illistim Monarchs (Lanenreat resigned during the Undead War; born 28,678 and reigned 935 years; no idea how to translate this to common time --- Laibanniel reigned from 32922-34126 and defended Ta'Illistim during the war of Despana)
--The Battle of ShadowGuard
--The Theory and Governance of Social Order
--Vaikalimara Clan Society
Questions 4 & 5: Would you interpret that the nine patriarchs (assuming that means eight + Unsenis) actually presided over the time rumors first reached the Faendryl in -19,864 to exile in -15,185? Perhaps the "conflict" was a less literal war-like conflict and a more political conflict of what to do about Despana?
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
Location of Rhoska-Tor
| Xorus |
| (1) Rhoska-Tor is the land Despana was occupying regardless of magical or terrain properties |
| (2) Rhoska-Tor is a special region of the Southron Wastes owing to its magical properties |
| .....2(A) These properties are because it is an old place of the Ur-Daemon, or else a specific part of the old places of the Ur-Daemon |
| .....2(B) These properties are because it is specifically where the Ur-Daemon portal collapsed. The Faendryl later tore the seal. |
| .....2(C) These properties are innate to the area, they're at most corrupted by demonic/undead |
| .....2(D) These properties were caused solely by Despana (note: this became untenable when the Dhe'nar became official) |
| (3) Rhoska-Tor is defined by proximity to the Veil tear by the Faendryl and demon summoning in the destruction of Maelshyve |
| .....3(A) This is the area near-ish to Maelshyve, possibly including New Ta'Faendryl |
| .....3(B) This is a wide area, perhaps largely the same as the Faendryl borders / dependent territory |
| (4) Rhoska-Tor is a separate wasteland from the Southron Wastes defined by terrain features |
| (5) Rhoska-Tor is specifically the site of Despana's keep (Maelshyve), and at most its immediate surroundings like the battle lands |
| (6) Rhoska-Tor is a loan word with etymological descent from Dhe'nar-si |
My interpretation was:
*2B. Rhoska-Tor is a special region of the Southron Wastes owing to its magical properties created where the Ur-Daemon portal collapsed and where the Faendryl later tore it open. Tearing open this portal is what affected the giantkin (and others).
*3A. Rhoska-Tor is defined by proximity to the Veil tear by the Faendryl and demon summoning int he destruction of Maelshyve and is near-ish to Maelshyve, possibly including New Ta'Faendryl.
In summary, my thoughts were: the Ur-Daemon themselves and their portal tainted the land and twisted the people who come in contact with it. The ripping of the veil and exposure to the mana in this area sped up the effects on the individuals who were on the front lines due to their proximity. The areas where this effect is prominent is Rhoska-Tor.
I understand what you're saying with your explication of #5 though and think that's really interesting.
Separately, I built Darcena around the idea that she has this extreme blood lust from what she calls the "Ur-Daemon curse" and that it causes her to grow extraordinarily hungry. Shocked by her conscious (instilled in her by her adopted parents Oxana and Thraes; whom she believes she killed and ate during a black out from the curse), she would instead heal the people so that she would no longer smell the blood, and then expend mana to heal herself. She believes that healing others is what allows her blood lust to lift, but I intended that it was instead the use of magic (removing it from her body/spirit) that causes her blood lust and insanity to temporarily lift. Therefore, she became addicted to healing others because expending mana allowed her to lower the effects of "her curse." Drinking blood slakes it, but using her mana lifts it (temporarily). She also supposedly senses magical power (and "scents" thereof) in others' blood and is affected by Grishom Stone's blood rain as if getting drunk. It causes her "curse" to intensify. When she's around certain types of magical power, her curse intensifies and she acts more reckless, violent, etc. I'm wondering if this is illogical.
Location of Kilanirij
| Xorus |
| It does not seem to be well defined. The mountains at the intersection between those two lines are the Gattrof Mountains, which is where the Horned Cabal passed through when invading. If Asharikan Mountain and the Kilanirij fortress were there it would have been referenced at some point. There's also no reference of them near Chastonia or the Wizardwaste. It is hard to tell what exists in the way of mountains in that part of the map. The maps have to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when zoomed far out. |
| I would guess it is one of the mountains further in the Southron Wastes, and all of that is south of Tamzyrr and west of New Ta'Faendryl. Samarak wished to keep Maelshyve "in view via magic", which suggests we cannot use elevation and line of sight to constrain how far west. My own feeling is the "Rhoska-Tor" is way too big on those maps. |
With this in mind, I would hope it would be around the "W" in Southron Wastes on that map. My reasoning is that the Grot'karesh would want to keep an eye on the Dhe'nar due to their relation to the Book of Tormtor and keep an eye on the ruins of Maelshyve. By physically placing themselves halfway between each, they would have ease to travel to either Sharath or New Ta'Faendryl while also remaining slightly out of the sphere of influence of both. In addition, the Giantkin History document states that the exiled giants wandered the Southron Wastes before the Grot'karesh was banded together by Samarak. They would know about the Dhe'nar. I would reason that they wouldn't only use magic to keep an eye on these cultures, but also just wander the land because that's what Grot'karesh outside of Kilanirij do.
That said, I have no knowledge of the Southron Wastes geography. Is there a zoomed in map anywhere of it, marked with places we've explored/experienced through storylines? Can an official map be made?
The Scorch: Effects of Maelshyve on Other Races
| Xorus |
| That was why I was italicizing the word "may" with it. |
Absolutely. I apologize for not acknowledging that.
My angle in posting the additional information was more that the documentation coming out could perhaps be updated to either disinclude the bit about the Faendryl magic or to include the bit about Maelshyve... Or perhaps a newer document could come out with new information on the Southron Wastes and Dark Elves that includes the Grot'karesh as they are closely tied to both the stories of the Dhe'nar and the Faendryl. Perhaps as cautionary allies of the Faendryl due to the Faendryl's actions during the Undead War. There could also be tension there as they wonder if the Faendryl are going to go too far and try to expand their power and cause another . The Dhe'nar as peerless warriors and perhaps progenitors of the power that Despana acquired in the first place would also put the Grot'karesh in a place of wanting to keep an eye on them.
Do you think the Red Rot was also caused by the proximity to Maelshyve? (aside: I still really like the idea of a post-cap Kalaza hunting ground accessible from Zul Logoth somehow)
Do you think Tordaak Minotaur's extended life was related to Maelshyve?
Timeline of the Undead War
| Xorus |
| The most serious defect is that it has nine Patriarchs presiding over the Undead War, while the other history documents say it only lasted a few years. |
I didn't address this originally, but now I have Questions. Primarily, it's to make sure I'm understanding and reading correctly.
"The Undead War was a difficult time for the Elven Nations, the Faendryl included. Eight Patriarchs watched over the conflict before finally Unsenis Ignaas Faendryl proposed the strike at Maelshyve." - History of the Faendryl
"The halflings arrived in the aftermath of ShadowGuard, and were put to the test against the heinous hordes following Despana. For years they stood with the Elven forces, their own numbers dwindling as the battles took their toll." - History of the Truefolk
"The Undead advance slowed, then stopped. A stalemate was reached, with neither side able to push the other back. Daily charges across the lines of battle brought heavy casualties, but little progress. This state of affairs lasted for years." - History of Elanthia
"For the long, arduous years that the sylvans fought with the elven army, no sylvan other than the Eranishal messengers was allowed to return to Nevishrim. This hardship, over and above the horrors they witnessed on the battlefields, was what survivors of the conflict later claimed was the worst sorrow of fighting in that war." - History of hte Sylvan Elves
The timeline states that the rumors reached the ruling classes in -19,864. Maelshyve was completed by undead in -18,756. Darthiir began recruitment in -15,497. The war began in -15,186. Exile occurred in -15,185.
The recruitment and war dates seem incongruous to me. The timeline seems to be the only document out of line of all the others.
Question 1: Are those the two you are concerned about?
Question 2: Is the timeline the document you're imagining being retconned?
Question 3: If it is the timeline that is primarily causing the incongruities, how would you rewrite it given that Despana rested on her laurels for three thousand years and had a war that lasted "years"?
Tentative proposed timeline that is all kinds of unofficial below. My issue with it is that none of the documentations say that the war lasted generations of the younger races lives, but that could be because the histories were written by elves who wouldn't notice?
| -19,864 | Rumors reach the ruling class of the elves that after Despana's search for Ur-Daemon artifacts, possibly finding the Book of Tormtor, she began construction of Maelshyve. |
| -18,756 | Maelshyve is completed by the undead hordes that Despana raised. |
| -18,500 | Darthiir begins recruitment. |
| -15,402 | Despana's movements increase and rumors escalate that she is going to bring war |
| ~15,400 | Despana starts the Undead War. Within one month, the Undead were at ShadowGuard. |
| -Phoenatos/August of above year | The battle of ShadowGuard took one day (conflicted sources). The opposition begins to mobilize |
| -15,397 | Undead advancement slows and stops. Forces at a stalemale. |
| -15,195 | Battle of Harradahn |
| -15,188 | Battle of Maelshyve |
| -15,185 | Faendryl are exiled after the elves hold an extensive trial. |
Documents read that mention Despana, Maelshyve, or the Undead War:
--Giantkin History
--History of Elanthia (Age of Chaos is -15,000 to 0 and starts with the Undead War)
--History of Fash'no'lae
--History of Leya
--History of Luukos
--History of the Dhe'nar
--History of the Dwarves
--History of the Faendryl
--History of the Minotaurs (allied with Despana)
--History of the Sylvan Elves (claims Battle of Maelshyve is -15,188 and Battle of Harradahn is -15,195)
--History of the Truefolk
--Ilynov Journal (Despana threatens in Olaesta/April 33,710, Taki prepares for battle in Lormesta/January 33,711, survivor returns Eantos/November 33,712 to discuss what happened at ShadowGuard - I have no idea how to translate the years)
--Ta'Illistim Monarchs (Lanenreat resigned during the Undead War; born 28,678 and reigned 935 years; no idea how to translate this to common time --- Laibanniel reigned from 32922-34126 and defended Ta'Illistim during the war of Despana)
--The Battle of ShadowGuard
--The Theory and Governance of Social Order
--Vaikalimara Clan Society
Questions 4 & 5: Would you interpret that the nine patriarchs (assuming that means eight + Unsenis) actually presided over the time rumors first reached the Faendryl in -19,864 to exile in -15,185? Perhaps the "conflict" was a less literal war-like conflict and a more political conflict of what to do about Despana?
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/21/2019 01:28 PM CST
| Me |
| Questions 4 & 5: Would you interpret that the nine patriarchs (assuming that means eight + Unsenis) actually presided over the time rumors first reached the Faendryl in -19,864 to exile in -15,185? Perhaps the "conflict" was a less literal war-like conflict and a more political conflict of what to do about Despana? |
And as I'm re-reading it (and noticing typos and whatnot, grr), if I'm assuming the nine patriarchs were indeed ruling over that ~4,000 year period, it might also explain partly why the Faendryl were not more invested in what was going on with Despana and reacted too late. Perhaps something was going on in their history - some internal or external struggle - that meant they didn't have the resources or time to devote to rumors. With that much turnover in such a short period of time (for elves), something had to be happening.
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
CLUNK24963
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/22/2019 06:20 PM CST
>>Yes. But they are not equally credible or well-founded, and the distortions from what they want to be true can be easy to spot. The Dhe'nar want to believe Despana was one of their own because of their religious history, the Faendryl want to believe their changes are because of their own sorcery and not because the Illistim were right about the Ur-Daemon, the Elves want to believe the Faendryl had no prior experience studying this magic prior to the destruction of Maelshyve making it a reckless blind act.
so true … and the dwarves shrug and say 'elves will be elves'
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
CLUNK24963
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/22/2019 06:37 PM CST
>>Do you think Do you think the Red Rot was also caused by the proximity to Maelshyve?
Clunk certainly does not. The histories indicate the Red Rot was brought back to Kalaza by Overking Gerfroth Khazar after the battles at Maelshyve. Thuunk has shared the possibility that it was trigged by the migration of plague worms through the mountains. The former possibility is based on the tales of history. The latter possibility is based on a similar occurrence in Zul Logoth during the Second Griffon Sword War, when dust from an opened cave UNDER Zul-Logoth allowed red dust into the Crystalline Caverns. Thuunk partially substantiated that possibility based on a lore song held in a miners doll. That opening has long since been closed, only to have other fractures in the main cave open up enough to allow passage (stairs to the Dragonspine Fane, and the stairs to Li'Aerion.)
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/22/2019 10:25 PM CST
>Clunk certainly does not. The histories indicate the Red Rot was brought back to Kalaza by Overking Gerfroth Khazar after the battles at Maelshyve. Thuunk has shared the possibility that it was trigged by the migration of plague worms through the mountains. The former possibility is based on the tales of history. The latter possibility is based on a similar occurrence in Zul Logoth during the Second Griffon Sword War, when dust from an opened cave UNDER Zul-Logoth allowed red dust into the Crystalline Caverns. Thuunk partially substantiated that possibility based on a lore song held in a miners doll. That opening has long since been closed, only to have other fractures in the main cave open up enough to allow passage (stairs to the Dragonspine Fane, and the stairs to Li'Aerion.)
This is a really interesting theory about the plague worms. Have plague worms been seen in game or is it a character backhistory theory?
Is there any reason to believe the cave under Zul-Logoth held remains of dwarves infected with the Red Rot previously? I don't know anything at all about Zul Logoth history, I'm embarrassed to say.
And do you have a copy of that loresong?
From the History of the Guardians of Sunfist:
>The Red Rot swept through the city of Kalaza and killed far more dwarves than any dark army might aspire, including Gerfroth Khazar. For thousands of years, the First Legion of Khazar had protected the line of Overkings, but with the death of Gerfroth, the line was broken, and Kalaza was sealed, a tomb to her people and to the Overkings. Without home or duty, the First Legion dissolved, its surviving members dispersing to those places thought free of Despana's Revenge.
This is from the History of Dwarves:
>The traveling clans brought word of Despana to the dwarves in the UnderGrounds. At first, the dwarves were hesitant to involve themselves in the Elf battle. However, the humility and sadness from the loss at Shadow Guard, and the ensuing Elven request for help, prompted Overking Gerfroth Khazar (a descendant of Khazi Khazar) to send forward 2,500 brave dwarves to lend aid against the threat. It was hardly a victory at Maelshyve; of the legion of fully armored dwarven troops, less than a quarter returned. While the survivors sang of great victories over the undead, and the strange and powerful magics of the elves, they also mourned the loss of so many kin.
>With the stories of triumph, and mourning for loss, came a great plague. The Red Rot, believed to be some last strike or seed of Despana's magics, infected strong and weak dwarves alike, even Overking Khazar himself. Very little is said of the plague. The eldest dwarves speak of it in whispered tones, and nervously. It was a treacherous disease, causing the skin to bubble into bleeding sores. As the plague progressed, the victims of the Red Rot would cough and spit blood, as the disease affected the organs inside as it did the skin outside. Those affected would spread the disease unintentionally, as others tried to cure them. There was no cure found, even among the most learned of the stout race. Nor was there much time to find one, as the fierce plague swept through the confined caverns of Kalaza in a matter of weeks, destroying nearly half of the dwarven population.
>It soon became apparent that no cure would be found, as more and more dwarves became ill. Some believed that the plague was in the cavern air itself, and staying within Kalaza would mean certain death. Faced with the threat of extinction, and unable to find a cure, the dwarven spirit was tested. There were some dwarves that were not affected, whether immune to the plague, or simply lucky. Rather than risk facing the same fate as their brethren, they decided to quarantine the city beneath the mountain. They worked diligently and destroyed the tunnels and mines leading from Kalaza, and buried the entrance to the great city under an avalanche of rock, never to look back. According to myth, a simple rune marks the entrance to Kalaza, a rune that only a dwarven miner would recognize, one that means simply, "Farewell."
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
This is a really interesting theory about the plague worms. Have plague worms been seen in game or is it a character backhistory theory?
Is there any reason to believe the cave under Zul-Logoth held remains of dwarves infected with the Red Rot previously? I don't know anything at all about Zul Logoth history, I'm embarrassed to say.
And do you have a copy of that loresong?
From the History of the Guardians of Sunfist:
>The Red Rot swept through the city of Kalaza and killed far more dwarves than any dark army might aspire, including Gerfroth Khazar. For thousands of years, the First Legion of Khazar had protected the line of Overkings, but with the death of Gerfroth, the line was broken, and Kalaza was sealed, a tomb to her people and to the Overkings. Without home or duty, the First Legion dissolved, its surviving members dispersing to those places thought free of Despana's Revenge.
This is from the History of Dwarves:
>The traveling clans brought word of Despana to the dwarves in the UnderGrounds. At first, the dwarves were hesitant to involve themselves in the Elf battle. However, the humility and sadness from the loss at Shadow Guard, and the ensuing Elven request for help, prompted Overking Gerfroth Khazar (a descendant of Khazi Khazar) to send forward 2,500 brave dwarves to lend aid against the threat. It was hardly a victory at Maelshyve; of the legion of fully armored dwarven troops, less than a quarter returned. While the survivors sang of great victories over the undead, and the strange and powerful magics of the elves, they also mourned the loss of so many kin.
>With the stories of triumph, and mourning for loss, came a great plague. The Red Rot, believed to be some last strike or seed of Despana's magics, infected strong and weak dwarves alike, even Overking Khazar himself. Very little is said of the plague. The eldest dwarves speak of it in whispered tones, and nervously. It was a treacherous disease, causing the skin to bubble into bleeding sores. As the plague progressed, the victims of the Red Rot would cough and spit blood, as the disease affected the organs inside as it did the skin outside. Those affected would spread the disease unintentionally, as others tried to cure them. There was no cure found, even among the most learned of the stout race. Nor was there much time to find one, as the fierce plague swept through the confined caverns of Kalaza in a matter of weeks, destroying nearly half of the dwarven population.
>It soon became apparent that no cure would be found, as more and more dwarves became ill. Some believed that the plague was in the cavern air itself, and staying within Kalaza would mean certain death. Faced with the threat of extinction, and unable to find a cure, the dwarven spirit was tested. There were some dwarves that were not affected, whether immune to the plague, or simply lucky. Rather than risk facing the same fate as their brethren, they decided to quarantine the city beneath the mountain. They worked diligently and destroyed the tunnels and mines leading from Kalaza, and buried the entrance to the great city under an avalanche of rock, never to look back. According to myth, a simple rune marks the entrance to Kalaza, a rune that only a dwarven miner would recognize, one that means simply, "Farewell."
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
CLUNK24963
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/23/2019 12:09 PM CST
>>And do you have a copy of that loresong?
The copy of the loresong is on the wiki at https://gswiki.play.net/Mithril-eyed_dwarven_miner_doll
>>Is there any reason to believe the cave under Zul-Logoth held remains of dwarves infected with the Red Rot previously? I don't know anything at all about Zul Logoth history, I'm embarrassed to say.
See the loresong above. Also, Dwarven history has largely only been shared in-game, so is not available on the Wiki.
Also - the under area of Zul was a clearly Dwarven developed area (with dust as I recall). I've not been able to find logs of visits to that area.
And consider this - after the dwarves left Kalaza the reports of the Red Rot subsided. The only known recurrence of anything resembling the Red Rot occurred when the openings to the caves under Zul showed up. Those reports of disease also failed to recur after that opening was closed. The end of the modern dwarven disease was attributed to development of a potion by dwarf Sheelanagig under the guidance of Erithian visitors.
Recall is that this was before the development of alchemy in Gemstone, and before the Erithi became a race choice for players, and roughly co-incident with the occurrence of the Second Griffon Sword war.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/23/2019 02:43 PM CST
Thank you for sharing, Clunk's player!
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/25/2019 01:48 AM CST
I should preface this by mentioning that constructing consistent chronologies is not a trivial thing to do in real life, and that Elanthian history goes into a way further historical past with its own Dark Ages of document decay and destruction. Minor disagreements about dates from twenty thousand years ago are not a big deal, especially when a lot of these races didn't have written records. It adds something for narratives to reflect different biases and undermine the absolute authority of IC texts. It would not be a huge deal for scholars to disagree on the exact year the Undead War ended (e.g. calendar drift), but it is a problem if they disagree on it lasting 1 year vs. 300 vs. 15,000 years.
The Timeline document for example dates the Dhe'nar leaving two thousand years after the last of the Elven Houses formed, where the Faendryl say Korthyr died several thousand years earlier. This is less than consistent with their founding story. It is a major disagreement but the Dhe'nar history isn't framed as being reliable in that way. That being said, the Faendryl underground period is on the edge of living memory for Elven NPCs, and the Illistim chroniclers have existed for over 50,000 years.
<<The recruitment and war dates seem incongruous to me. The timeline seems to be the only document out of line of all the others. Question 1: Are those the two you are concerned about? Question 2: Is the timeline the document you're imagining being retconned?>> - Darcena
The recruitment date is synched with the scouts in the Sylvan history, which just doesn't mention it in quite those terms. The section's dating pushes ShadowGuard back a few hundred years. The war dates are consistent with the later Elven history documents, which is only fair because the timeline itself is an Elven history document.
The History of the Faendryl document has an implicit 15,000 year problem. The Sylvan history has an explicit 300 year incompatibility with later documents.
<<Ilynov Journal (Despana threatens in Olaesta/April 33,710, Taki prepares for battle in Lormesta/January 33,711, survivor returns Eantos/November 33,712 to discuss what happened at ShadowGuard - I have no idea how to translate the years) Ta'Illistim Monarchs (Lanenreat resigned during the Undead War; born 28,678 and reigned 935 years; no idea how to translate this to common time --- Laibanniel reigned from 32922-34126 and defended Ta'Illistim during the war of Despana)>>
The Elven calendars set their year zero to the House founding dates. Illistim Year 0 is -49,107 Modern Era and Vaalor Year 0 is -48,897 Modern Era. The Illistim monarch document (Linsandrych's Legacy) is explicit about that at the beginning. The Ilynov Journal does it implicitly with "year X of House Vaalor." I'm not sure if the convention has been done elsewhere with the Vaalor but the math makes it clear. The years chosen for them with that convention synch up exactly with the Timeline of Elanthian History document (the attributed author being Meachreasim Illistim, who is the retconned NPC author of the original History of Elanthia document from late 1995 / 1996.)
Here is a cross-referenced timeline constructed from only the Timeline of Elanthian History (2000 and updated through 2003), History of the Truefolk (2002), Linsandrych's Legacy (2010), and Ilynov Journal (2015). The latter two documents use exactly synched dates with the first document. The Illyan Journal (2015) backs the Ilynov Journal.
(Note: The Halflings had no written language back then, the date for the Horse War presumably comes from the Elves.)
I was speaking narrowly of the Faendryl issue, but you're noticing some of the other timeline inconsistencies. The History of the Sylvan Elves (2003) was written to contradict it for some reason, pushing the start of the war back to near Dharthiir's recruiting. I'd guess the intent was to retcon the timeline so the Undead War lasts longer than one or two years and give a little time for the exile to happen. The sub-section heading including the sylvan scouting of Despana is suggesting the defeat at ShadowGuard as roughly -15,490 which is only 7 years after Dharthiir began recruiting living races to join the undead army. Then it skips ahead a century maybe suggesting the sylvans actually started fighting alongside the elves around -15,400. This might be because there was strong dissent over getting involved and it was only "eventually" agreed by their high council.
The Battle of Harradahn is -15,195 in that document and Maelshyve is destroyed in -15,188 instead of -15,185. This is the only document that asserts this, and its dates are contradicted by an earlier document and three later documents. For our purposes it is implying a 300 year Undead War. That doesn't sound plausible in a total war where the enemy does not need to eat or rest, spreads rotting diseases, and incorporates your own fallen soldiers into its ranks (depicted in Battle of ShadowGuard document.) It ends its Undead War section with the year -15,180 like the Timeline. The Timeline document has the fundamental flaw of making the war shorter than the other documents.
<<Questions 4 & 5: Would you interpret that the nine patriarchs (assuming that means eight + Unsenis) actually presided over the time rumors first reached the Faendryl in -19,864 to exile in -15,185? Perhaps the "conflict" was a less literal war-like conflict and a more political conflict of what to do about Despana?>>
I would interpret the -19,864 and -18,756 dates as historians reconstructing what happened after the fact. The whole context of ShadowGuard is that they were blindsided and surprised/shocked because they had not been taking whatever they knew about it seriously. Nine patriarchs over ~4,600 years is also a really high burn rate for that time period, you'd have to bend over backwards inventing reasons for early abdications. If you take The Faendryl Empire document at its word on timing, Yshryth Faendryl (Patriarch 14 because of bloody power struggles at the very beginning) would have ascended while the first Argent Mirror was still on the throne, back past -45,000 Modern Era.
Unsenis Faendryl is supposed to be Patriarch 34, so what you are saying would have the "conflict" being counted starting at roughly -20,000 Modern Era at Patriarch 25. So that would be saying 11 Faendryl Patriarchs over a period of roughly 25,000 years and then 9 Patriarchs over 4,600 years. (The Illistim monarchs back then usually reigned around 2,000 to 3,000 years when you calculate out the Linsandrych's Legacy document.) This would not really solve the problem, as I will illustrate in a moment.
If you go with the Sylvan timeline with a 300 year Undead War, you could have eight dead Patriarchs, if they were getting themselves killed in battles. This would be absurd in a one or two year war but may be reasonable for a 300 year war. That would have to be a retconned interpretation since the Faendryl Empire document is older than the Sylvan document. But however you cut it the various documents with dates agree that the Undead War ended before -15,180 Modern Era, with "Linsandrych's Legacy" and "The History of the Truefolk" documents also talking about the post-War/Exile/Schism period with dates in the -14,000s. The problem then becomes the Patriarchy before the Ashrim War.
The Exile is supposed to happen under Cestimir Faendryl, Patriarch 35, who would have to ascend when Unsenis dies within a few years of -15,185 Modern Era. The Ashrim War happens in 157 Modern Era in the "Timeline of Elanthian History" and sometime between 442 and 723 Modern Era in "Linsandrych's Legacy" and seemingly 93 Modern Era in "The Siege of Ta'Ashrim" (which was written by a player and probably not valid.) Regardless. The Ashrim War happens under Rythwier Faendryl, Patriarch 37, which means there was only one other Faendryl Patriarch between the Faendryl exile and the Ashrim War. This makes sense for the Faendryl Empire document claiming "decades passed in the dark of the caverns" underground and no sense if they spent fifteen thousand years underground. Five thousand years ago is not that long ago for Elves, people would have relatives that lived underground. The Illistim monarch from 4,000 years ago (Ardtin) per the "Linsandrych's Legacy" document is still alive on the Illistim Council of Thrones.
<<Question 3: If it is the timeline that is primarily causing the incongruities, how would you rewrite it given that Despana rested on her laurels for three thousand years and had a war that lasted "years"?>>
(1) Timeline Fixes
With the first part I've shown how the incongruity isn't so much just the timeline document, it's between the Elven and Sylvan and Faendryl versions. To fix the Elven-Faendryl issues I would just change the monarch number of Unsenis Faendryl to something like Patriarch 25 and make Cestimir Faendryl Patriarch 26, and then move those unnamed Patriarchs to after the Undead War and before the Ashrim War where Rythwier Sukari is still Patriarch 35. The Faendryl end of the chronology issues instantly evaporates.
To fix the Elven-Sylvan issues something has to give because they use exact dates. The Sylvan history is oral, the Elven history is written chronicles. The Ilynov Journal is an authenticated document with calendar dates for entries. One way to do it is to change the -15,400 references on both the Timeline and the Sylvan history to more like -15,200 and move ShadowGuard back from -15,186 to -15,196. In this case Dharthiir recruits the living in -15,197 instead of -15,497 and ShadowGuard happens in -15,196 instead of -15,186, then the Battle of Harradahn is still -15,195 and the destruction of Maelshyve is -15,185 after an 11 year total war. The Exile maybe pushes closer to -15,180.
Another way to do it would be to have the Vaalor be using the same calendar as the Illistim in the Ilynov Journal, so the initial threat leading to ShadowGuard becomes -15,397; Dharthiir could be tweaked so he starts recruiting living races in -15,397 instead of -15,497 and you have a roughly 200 year Undead War with ShadowGuard happening in -15,396. You might then tweak the reign dates for Lanenreat and Laibanniel to synch up with ShadowGuard instead of the destruction of Maelshyve. Both of these would fix the inconsistency between the Timeline and the original History of Elanthia documents, nominally the same NPC author, where the latter has a period of "years" of stalemate.
(2) Regarding Despana (this is a crypto-historical tangent)
With Despana that is a really long latency period. I would not have written it that way myself, and I would not have had Dharthiir recruiting short-lived races so long before ShadowGuard. The trouble is we know almost nothing about her. We can't assume she was hanging around not doing anything. Whatever the Book of Tormtor really is (in its original form/source?) might have been very difficult to interpret and understand and reproduce into actual magic. On top of that there is all the time for building (finding? inventing?) whatever artifacts she was using and designing a commmand hierarchy she could control on vast scales. This could conceivably take a very long time to master.
I do not know if there was any intent with the creature choices when that original history was being rushed together. The Rolemaster creature bestiaries that existed at the time defined terms like "zombies" and "rotting corpses" even though they were not GemStone monsters yet. Most undead in the I.C.E. context cannot be created with necromancy spells. They have to be made indirectly through specific situations (e.g. firephantoms are people burned to death) or rituals or so on and controlled. You might ask as a thought experiment how the story would be read from this context if the year was 1995, without all the subsequent development that interpreted it in other directions.
This is how I would have read her undead: Ghouls and rotting corpses were created through disease transformation curses. With ghouls it was called Ghoul Rot. (Red Rot was not done this way in its storyline appearance, I was not there and I think it was just some illness.) You get clawed by a ghoul and infected, you eventually turn into a ghoul. Similar with rotting corpses, but they're not explicitly named. Zombies and banshees were caused by evil/tainted lands, where zombies were what happens to dead bodies. Banshees in the Rolemaster version began as horribly disfigured newborns of a tainted land who eventually turn into banshees wailing in the constant pain of their twisted flesh. Skeletons were directly made with necromancy spells. Zombies, skeletons, and ghouls all mindlessly obey more powerful undead, such as skeletal lords and ghoul kings (ghoul masters) and liches which are more intelligent. Rotting corpses were also mindless undead. In that context she could rapidly build up an undead horde out of fallen soldiers which would demand a lightning strike to decapitate its high command, and you would need to implode the keep to destroy the liches because of phylacteries.
More subtly, mindless undead should arguably not have any instinct to kill demons because they are not the living, and could even feel compelled to obey "the lesser demonic", as spell lists at the time classified undead in terms of lesser/greater demonic (Levels 16-25 and 25+ originally). The Faendryl in that interpretation might have been using lesser demons to disrupt her command hierarchy, causing those hordes to immediately turn on the living, who fled back into Maelshyve in disarray with the undead following them. (The lesser demonic in that context would be significantly weaker than the banshees.) This is a very clean interpretation of her method and it could be totally coincidental and archaic regardless. Whether that kind of reasoning was initially applicable or not, we know next to nothing about how actual undead are created in the modern setting, so we can't take for granted that Despana could easily create the undead archetypes without a very long period of experimenting or scale them up to a large size and control them.
<<My reasoning is that the Grot'karesh would want to keep an eye on the Dhe'nar due to their relation to the Book of Tormtor and keep an eye on the ruins of Maelshyve. By physically placing themselves halfway between each, they would have ease to travel to either Sharath or New Ta'Faendryl while also remaining slightly out of the sphere of influence of both.>>
Assuming the Dhe'nar were claiming relation to Despana or the Book of Tormtor. Their history is written to be unreliable, oral traditions and cataclysms. Rumors of Despana on the Timeline appear at about the same time the Dhe'nar population is almost entirely destroyed. It could be done now that they are an official culture, but they were not when the Giantkin lore was released. (I have a version of Clunk's Elanith map from 2001 where you can see the jungle beyond the Southron Wastes and Sharath wasn't on it yet.) More pressingly, they'd have to be placed in the Southron Wastes to not be where the Horned Cabal is concentrated, which is somewhere on the west of the subcontinent.
<<That said, I have no knowledge of the Southron Wastes geography. Is there a zoomed in map anywhere of it, marked with places we've explored/experienced through storylines? Can an official map be made?>>
The Southron Wastes map of rooms from the Wavedancer event was shaped to correspond to the same geographical shape on the continent map. The south central region. So the wasteland looking rooms on the Southron Wastes wiki page are the part immediately northern adjacent to the Dhe'nar jungles. On the Elanith map you posted with the "Southron" label, it is no further west than the "u", no further north than the "r", and no further east than the "n". Not circular shaped. More like a spider with the bulbous part over the jungles. But there is no zoomed in and fully detailed map for the subcontinent. This shows the creature distribution, iguanoids I think are down near the jungle:
http://www.outdoorelanthia.com/maps/gse/maps/GSE-SouthronWastes.gif
<<Do you think the Red Rot was also caused by the proximity to Maelshyve? ... Do you think Tordaak Minotaur's extended life was related to Maelshyve?>>
My suspicion is that Red Rot should have been transmitted by contact wounds that turned Dwarves into undead Dwarves. There is zero evidence for that other than what I described above about her undead and the bestiary definitions of 1995. And then the way Red Rot was actually done later in a storyline was seemingly an airborne disease that returned with an opened cavern and cured with the help of Erithi. Either way I would think the Red Rot originates in some evil Despana magic rather than Maelshyve proximity.
With Tordaak it seems likely there was some magical abnormality affecting his youth and longevity. But it sounds like it was singularly affecting him, so unless he alone got especially close to its center by himself as the warrior-king, then I'd suspsect it was something Despana (or her liches or whatever) did to him specifically. There isn't much to go on, though, maybe others like him got killed off and he just stood out later. I was not around for the storyline where his spirit was summoned. If it shed any light.
- Xorus' player
The Timeline document for example dates the Dhe'nar leaving two thousand years after the last of the Elven Houses formed, where the Faendryl say Korthyr died several thousand years earlier. This is less than consistent with their founding story. It is a major disagreement but the Dhe'nar history isn't framed as being reliable in that way. That being said, the Faendryl underground period is on the edge of living memory for Elven NPCs, and the Illistim chroniclers have existed for over 50,000 years.
<<The recruitment and war dates seem incongruous to me. The timeline seems to be the only document out of line of all the others. Question 1: Are those the two you are concerned about? Question 2: Is the timeline the document you're imagining being retconned?>> - Darcena
The recruitment date is synched with the scouts in the Sylvan history, which just doesn't mention it in quite those terms. The section's dating pushes ShadowGuard back a few hundred years. The war dates are consistent with the later Elven history documents, which is only fair because the timeline itself is an Elven history document.
The History of the Faendryl document has an implicit 15,000 year problem. The Sylvan history has an explicit 300 year incompatibility with later documents.
<<Ilynov Journal (Despana threatens in Olaesta/April 33,710, Taki prepares for battle in Lormesta/January 33,711, survivor returns Eantos/November 33,712 to discuss what happened at ShadowGuard - I have no idea how to translate the years) Ta'Illistim Monarchs (Lanenreat resigned during the Undead War; born 28,678 and reigned 935 years; no idea how to translate this to common time --- Laibanniel reigned from 32922-34126 and defended Ta'Illistim during the war of Despana)>>
The Elven calendars set their year zero to the House founding dates. Illistim Year 0 is -49,107 Modern Era and Vaalor Year 0 is -48,897 Modern Era. The Illistim monarch document (Linsandrych's Legacy) is explicit about that at the beginning. The Ilynov Journal does it implicitly with "year X of House Vaalor." I'm not sure if the convention has been done elsewhere with the Vaalor but the math makes it clear. The years chosen for them with that convention synch up exactly with the Timeline of Elanthian History document (the attributed author being Meachreasim Illistim, who is the retconned NPC author of the original History of Elanthia document from late 1995 / 1996.)
Here is a cross-referenced timeline constructed from only the Timeline of Elanthian History (2000 and updated through 2003), History of the Truefolk (2002), Linsandrych's Legacy (2010), and Ilynov Journal (2015). The latter two documents use exactly synched dates with the first document. The Illyan Journal (2015) backs the Ilynov Journal.
(Note: The Halflings had no written language back then, the date for the Horse War presumably comes from the Elves.)
| Modern: -20,063 (Vaalor: 28,834) (Illistim: 29,044): Tenesi Illistim ascends to the throne, unclear if her mother Lilorandrych died or stepped down. Ineffectual ruler, debate over whether reactionary decision making, or just choices turning out poorly. (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
| Modern: -19,864 (Vaalor: 29,033) (Illistim: 29,243): "Rumors of Despana reach the ruling classes of the Elven Nations, but are dismissed as the storybook tales of children and the infirm." Over 4,500 years before destruction of Maelshyve and Faendryl exile. (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -18,756 (Vaalor: 30,141) (Illistim: 30,351): "Despana completes construction on the Keep at Maelshyve, where she takes up residence and begins to plot." Over 3,500 years before destruction of Maelshyve and Faendryl exile. (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -18,008 (Vaalor: 30,899) (Illistim: 31,099): Nimyaion Illistim ascends to the throne when mother Tenesis abdicates. Not a serious ruler. (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
| Modern: -16,120 (Vaalor: 32,777) (Illistim: 32,987): Lanenreat Illistim ascends to the throne when her brother abdicates. Not a serious ruler. (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
| Modern: -15,497 (Vaalor: 33,400) (Illistim: 33,610): Dharthiir "begins to recruit orcs, trolls and humans into his undead army." This is 311 years before Elven Nations attacked. (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -15,187 (Vaalor: 33,710) (Illistim: 33,920): "Despana threatens even the mighty Vaalor, and Taki Rassien seeks the best from the Vaalorian army." (source: Ilynov Journal) |
| Modern: -15,186 (Vaalor: 33,711) (Illistim: 33,921): "Led by Dharthiir, the first of Despana's hordes of undead begin to attack the southernmost settled portions of the Elven Nations, hitting the houses of Vaalor and Nalfein hardest. The Elven Houses, caught by surprise and dissent among the ruling factions, offered little resistance." (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -15,186 (Vaalor: 33,711) (Illistim: 33,921): ShadowGuard under attack by Dharthiir. (source: Ilynov Journal; Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -15,185 (Vaalor: 33,712) (Illistim: 33,922): Lanenreat Illistim abdicates for not containing Despana. (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
| Modern: -15,185 (Vaalor: 33,712) (Illistim: 33,922): Laibanniel Illistim "oversaw the initial defense of Ta'Illistim during the war with Despana" (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
| Modern: -15,185 (Vaalor: 33,712) (Illistim: 33,922): Destruction of Maelshyve. Faendryl exiled to Rhoska-Tor. (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -15,184 (Vaalor: 33,713) (Illisitm: 33,923): Dwarves return from the war to Kalaza spreading the Red Rot. (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -15,180 (Vaalor: 33,717) (Illistim: 33,927): Other Elven Houses withdraw from each other and manager their own affairs. (source: Timeline of Elanthian History) |
| Modern: -14,981 (Vaalor: 33,916) (Illistim: 34,126): Laibanniel Illistim reign ends after 204 years. Separation of Houses during that reign. (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
| Modern: -14,823 (Vaalor: 34,074) (Illistim: 34,284): "after the defeat of Despana and the exile of House Faendryl, a ravaging blight began to reduce the crops surrounding the city of Ta'Ardenai", other Houses do not aid given their recent schism, leads immediately to Horse War with the halflings. (source: History of the Truefolk) |
| Modern: -14,547 (Vaalor: 34,350) (Illistim: 34,560): Segeir Illistim begins reign in the calm period between the Undead War and the Kiramon War. (source: Linsandrych's Legacy) |
I was speaking narrowly of the Faendryl issue, but you're noticing some of the other timeline inconsistencies. The History of the Sylvan Elves (2003) was written to contradict it for some reason, pushing the start of the war back to near Dharthiir's recruiting. I'd guess the intent was to retcon the timeline so the Undead War lasts longer than one or two years and give a little time for the exile to happen. The sub-section heading including the sylvan scouting of Despana is suggesting the defeat at ShadowGuard as roughly -15,490 which is only 7 years after Dharthiir began recruiting living races to join the undead army. Then it skips ahead a century maybe suggesting the sylvans actually started fighting alongside the elves around -15,400. This might be because there was strong dissent over getting involved and it was only "eventually" agreed by their high council.
The Battle of Harradahn is -15,195 in that document and Maelshyve is destroyed in -15,188 instead of -15,185. This is the only document that asserts this, and its dates are contradicted by an earlier document and three later documents. For our purposes it is implying a 300 year Undead War. That doesn't sound plausible in a total war where the enemy does not need to eat or rest, spreads rotting diseases, and incorporates your own fallen soldiers into its ranks (depicted in Battle of ShadowGuard document.) It ends its Undead War section with the year -15,180 like the Timeline. The Timeline document has the fundamental flaw of making the war shorter than the other documents.
<<Questions 4 & 5: Would you interpret that the nine patriarchs (assuming that means eight + Unsenis) actually presided over the time rumors first reached the Faendryl in -19,864 to exile in -15,185? Perhaps the "conflict" was a less literal war-like conflict and a more political conflict of what to do about Despana?>>
I would interpret the -19,864 and -18,756 dates as historians reconstructing what happened after the fact. The whole context of ShadowGuard is that they were blindsided and surprised/shocked because they had not been taking whatever they knew about it seriously. Nine patriarchs over ~4,600 years is also a really high burn rate for that time period, you'd have to bend over backwards inventing reasons for early abdications. If you take The Faendryl Empire document at its word on timing, Yshryth Faendryl (Patriarch 14 because of bloody power struggles at the very beginning) would have ascended while the first Argent Mirror was still on the throne, back past -45,000 Modern Era.
Unsenis Faendryl is supposed to be Patriarch 34, so what you are saying would have the "conflict" being counted starting at roughly -20,000 Modern Era at Patriarch 25. So that would be saying 11 Faendryl Patriarchs over a period of roughly 25,000 years and then 9 Patriarchs over 4,600 years. (The Illistim monarchs back then usually reigned around 2,000 to 3,000 years when you calculate out the Linsandrych's Legacy document.) This would not really solve the problem, as I will illustrate in a moment.
If you go with the Sylvan timeline with a 300 year Undead War, you could have eight dead Patriarchs, if they were getting themselves killed in battles. This would be absurd in a one or two year war but may be reasonable for a 300 year war. That would have to be a retconned interpretation since the Faendryl Empire document is older than the Sylvan document. But however you cut it the various documents with dates agree that the Undead War ended before -15,180 Modern Era, with "Linsandrych's Legacy" and "The History of the Truefolk" documents also talking about the post-War/Exile/Schism period with dates in the -14,000s. The problem then becomes the Patriarchy before the Ashrim War.
The Exile is supposed to happen under Cestimir Faendryl, Patriarch 35, who would have to ascend when Unsenis dies within a few years of -15,185 Modern Era. The Ashrim War happens in 157 Modern Era in the "Timeline of Elanthian History" and sometime between 442 and 723 Modern Era in "Linsandrych's Legacy" and seemingly 93 Modern Era in "The Siege of Ta'Ashrim" (which was written by a player and probably not valid.) Regardless. The Ashrim War happens under Rythwier Faendryl, Patriarch 37, which means there was only one other Faendryl Patriarch between the Faendryl exile and the Ashrim War. This makes sense for the Faendryl Empire document claiming "decades passed in the dark of the caverns" underground and no sense if they spent fifteen thousand years underground. Five thousand years ago is not that long ago for Elves, people would have relatives that lived underground. The Illistim monarch from 4,000 years ago (Ardtin) per the "Linsandrych's Legacy" document is still alive on the Illistim Council of Thrones.
<<Question 3: If it is the timeline that is primarily causing the incongruities, how would you rewrite it given that Despana rested on her laurels for three thousand years and had a war that lasted "years"?>>
(1) Timeline Fixes
With the first part I've shown how the incongruity isn't so much just the timeline document, it's between the Elven and Sylvan and Faendryl versions. To fix the Elven-Faendryl issues I would just change the monarch number of Unsenis Faendryl to something like Patriarch 25 and make Cestimir Faendryl Patriarch 26, and then move those unnamed Patriarchs to after the Undead War and before the Ashrim War where Rythwier Sukari is still Patriarch 35. The Faendryl end of the chronology issues instantly evaporates.
To fix the Elven-Sylvan issues something has to give because they use exact dates. The Sylvan history is oral, the Elven history is written chronicles. The Ilynov Journal is an authenticated document with calendar dates for entries. One way to do it is to change the -15,400 references on both the Timeline and the Sylvan history to more like -15,200 and move ShadowGuard back from -15,186 to -15,196. In this case Dharthiir recruits the living in -15,197 instead of -15,497 and ShadowGuard happens in -15,196 instead of -15,186, then the Battle of Harradahn is still -15,195 and the destruction of Maelshyve is -15,185 after an 11 year total war. The Exile maybe pushes closer to -15,180.
Another way to do it would be to have the Vaalor be using the same calendar as the Illistim in the Ilynov Journal, so the initial threat leading to ShadowGuard becomes -15,397; Dharthiir could be tweaked so he starts recruiting living races in -15,397 instead of -15,497 and you have a roughly 200 year Undead War with ShadowGuard happening in -15,396. You might then tweak the reign dates for Lanenreat and Laibanniel to synch up with ShadowGuard instead of the destruction of Maelshyve. Both of these would fix the inconsistency between the Timeline and the original History of Elanthia documents, nominally the same NPC author, where the latter has a period of "years" of stalemate.
(2) Regarding Despana (this is a crypto-historical tangent)
With Despana that is a really long latency period. I would not have written it that way myself, and I would not have had Dharthiir recruiting short-lived races so long before ShadowGuard. The trouble is we know almost nothing about her. We can't assume she was hanging around not doing anything. Whatever the Book of Tormtor really is (in its original form/source?) might have been very difficult to interpret and understand and reproduce into actual magic. On top of that there is all the time for building (finding? inventing?) whatever artifacts she was using and designing a commmand hierarchy she could control on vast scales. This could conceivably take a very long time to master.
I do not know if there was any intent with the creature choices when that original history was being rushed together. The Rolemaster creature bestiaries that existed at the time defined terms like "zombies" and "rotting corpses" even though they were not GemStone monsters yet. Most undead in the I.C.E. context cannot be created with necromancy spells. They have to be made indirectly through specific situations (e.g. firephantoms are people burned to death) or rituals or so on and controlled. You might ask as a thought experiment how the story would be read from this context if the year was 1995, without all the subsequent development that interpreted it in other directions.
This is how I would have read her undead: Ghouls and rotting corpses were created through disease transformation curses. With ghouls it was called Ghoul Rot. (Red Rot was not done this way in its storyline appearance, I was not there and I think it was just some illness.) You get clawed by a ghoul and infected, you eventually turn into a ghoul. Similar with rotting corpses, but they're not explicitly named. Zombies and banshees were caused by evil/tainted lands, where zombies were what happens to dead bodies. Banshees in the Rolemaster version began as horribly disfigured newborns of a tainted land who eventually turn into banshees wailing in the constant pain of their twisted flesh. Skeletons were directly made with necromancy spells. Zombies, skeletons, and ghouls all mindlessly obey more powerful undead, such as skeletal lords and ghoul kings (ghoul masters) and liches which are more intelligent. Rotting corpses were also mindless undead. In that context she could rapidly build up an undead horde out of fallen soldiers which would demand a lightning strike to decapitate its high command, and you would need to implode the keep to destroy the liches because of phylacteries.
More subtly, mindless undead should arguably not have any instinct to kill demons because they are not the living, and could even feel compelled to obey "the lesser demonic", as spell lists at the time classified undead in terms of lesser/greater demonic (Levels 16-25 and 25+ originally). The Faendryl in that interpretation might have been using lesser demons to disrupt her command hierarchy, causing those hordes to immediately turn on the living, who fled back into Maelshyve in disarray with the undead following them. (The lesser demonic in that context would be significantly weaker than the banshees.) This is a very clean interpretation of her method and it could be totally coincidental and archaic regardless. Whether that kind of reasoning was initially applicable or not, we know next to nothing about how actual undead are created in the modern setting, so we can't take for granted that Despana could easily create the undead archetypes without a very long period of experimenting or scale them up to a large size and control them.
<<My reasoning is that the Grot'karesh would want to keep an eye on the Dhe'nar due to their relation to the Book of Tormtor and keep an eye on the ruins of Maelshyve. By physically placing themselves halfway between each, they would have ease to travel to either Sharath or New Ta'Faendryl while also remaining slightly out of the sphere of influence of both.>>
Assuming the Dhe'nar were claiming relation to Despana or the Book of Tormtor. Their history is written to be unreliable, oral traditions and cataclysms. Rumors of Despana on the Timeline appear at about the same time the Dhe'nar population is almost entirely destroyed. It could be done now that they are an official culture, but they were not when the Giantkin lore was released. (I have a version of Clunk's Elanith map from 2001 where you can see the jungle beyond the Southron Wastes and Sharath wasn't on it yet.) More pressingly, they'd have to be placed in the Southron Wastes to not be where the Horned Cabal is concentrated, which is somewhere on the west of the subcontinent.
<<That said, I have no knowledge of the Southron Wastes geography. Is there a zoomed in map anywhere of it, marked with places we've explored/experienced through storylines? Can an official map be made?>>
The Southron Wastes map of rooms from the Wavedancer event was shaped to correspond to the same geographical shape on the continent map. The south central region. So the wasteland looking rooms on the Southron Wastes wiki page are the part immediately northern adjacent to the Dhe'nar jungles. On the Elanith map you posted with the "Southron" label, it is no further west than the "u", no further north than the "r", and no further east than the "n". Not circular shaped. More like a spider with the bulbous part over the jungles. But there is no zoomed in and fully detailed map for the subcontinent. This shows the creature distribution, iguanoids I think are down near the jungle:
http://www.outdoorelanthia.com/maps/gse/maps/GSE-SouthronWastes.gif
<<Do you think the Red Rot was also caused by the proximity to Maelshyve? ... Do you think Tordaak Minotaur's extended life was related to Maelshyve?>>
My suspicion is that Red Rot should have been transmitted by contact wounds that turned Dwarves into undead Dwarves. There is zero evidence for that other than what I described above about her undead and the bestiary definitions of 1995. And then the way Red Rot was actually done later in a storyline was seemingly an airborne disease that returned with an opened cavern and cured with the help of Erithi. Either way I would think the Red Rot originates in some evil Despana magic rather than Maelshyve proximity.
With Tordaak it seems likely there was some magical abnormality affecting his youth and longevity. But it sounds like it was singularly affecting him, so unless he alone got especially close to its center by himself as the warrior-king, then I'd suspsect it was something Despana (or her liches or whatever) did to him specifically. There isn't much to go on, though, maybe others like him got killed off and he just stood out later. I was not around for the storyline where his spirit was summoned. If it shed any light.
- Xorus' player
AVAIA
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/25/2019 11:02 AM CST
> Assuming the Dhe'nar were claiming relation to Despana or the Book of Tormtor
This is several times now I have read references to the Dhe'nar claiming relation to Despana. I am curious where this idea comes from? Is it merely that she could be interpreted to be the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Noi'sho'rah, or something else?
The Dhe'nar relation to the Book of Tormtor is also news to me. I remember no such thing(admittedly all my old files are on an un-as-yet-salvaged computer sitting in the basement). When did this idea start?
Despana was also never confirmed dead as I understand it, which I find very interesting. Her return, if done properly, would make The Griffin Sword War look like a walk in the park.
Avaia, player of
This is several times now I have read references to the Dhe'nar claiming relation to Despana. I am curious where this idea comes from? Is it merely that she could be interpreted to be the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Noi'sho'rah, or something else?
The Dhe'nar relation to the Book of Tormtor is also news to me. I remember no such thing(admittedly all my old files are on an un-as-yet-salvaged computer sitting in the basement). When did this idea start?
Despana was also never confirmed dead as I understand it, which I find very interesting. Her return, if done properly, would make The Griffin Sword War look like a walk in the park.
Avaia, player of
ARMYJEN
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/25/2019 01:06 PM CST
| Avaia |
| This is several times now I have read references to the Dhe'nar claiming relation to Despana. I am curious where this idea comes from? Is it merely that she could be interpreted to be the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Noi'sho'rah, or something else? |
| The Dhe'nar relation to the Book of Tormtor is also news to me. I remember no such thing(admittedly all my old files are on an un-as-yet-salvaged computer sitting in the basement). When did this idea start? |
I don't remember where all the rumors and links come from, but here are two off the top of my head.
Excerpted from the Official History of Elanthia (https://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/official-elanthian-history2.asp):
>III. A. The Undead War
>Nobody knows just who or what Despana was. Her contemporaries believed that she came from the jungles said to lie beyond the Southron Wastes. She searched the land for the old places of the Ur-Daemons. Somewhere in what is now called Rhoska- Tor, her quest succeeded when she found the Book of Tormtor. The book was lost during the events which followed, so none can now be sure of its contents. It was said to be written in the language of the Daemons.
Excerpted from the History of the Dhe'nar official document (https://www.play.net/gs4/info/tomes/dark_elf_history/dhenar1.asp):
>III. Rhoska-Tor (50,000 to 45,000 years ago)
>The Dhe'nar spent 5,000 years living in the barren plains and caverns of Rhoska-Tor. It was during this time that the Dhe'nar learned not only the art of survival, but also honed their arcane skills. The dark essence that had been left behind by the Ur-Daemon War not only tainted the appearance and psyche of the Dhe'nar, but it also had a powerful effect on the flows of magic in the region.
>Among the Dhe'nar, it is said that a Dhe'nar warrior has the soul of a dragon and the hunger of an Ur-Daemon, and there is little doubt this is partially true. The Dhe'nar magi learned to use the dark magic of the region, adding it to their already potent library of spells taught by the Arkati themselves. The control of the undead and the summoning of the elements into a physical manifestation were but a few of the skills the Dhe'nar learned while in Rhoska-Tor.
>The Dhe'nar knew the power of what they learned and the importance of guarding its secrets. They kept few written records, passing on their knowledge orally. What few records they did keep were not only written in the spidery runes only a true Dhe'nar warlock could read, but also closely guarded by the magi and priests. It is rumored, however, that one tome, The Book of Tormtor, was lost somewhere deep within the caverns of Rhoska-Tor.
>After 5,000 years (as Noi'sho'rah prophesied) the Dhe'nar left Rhoska-Tor in search of their promised land. They headed south, through the Southron Wastes and into the jungles, where they founded Sharath, which remains home to the Dhe'nar to this day.
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
DOUG
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/25/2019 01:13 PM CST
Excellent body of work. Thank you for all of this material.
Might I suggest ensconcing in the Wiki under player research?
Doug
Might I suggest ensconcing in the Wiki under player research?
Doug
CLUNK24963
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/25/2019 03:28 PM CST
>>Might I suggest ensconcing in the Wiki under player research?
it is on the wiki at https://gswiki.play.net/History_of_Elanthia and at https://gswiki.play.net/History_of_the_Dhe%27nar. Both are marked as part of the official histories. The articles are also good for presenting the time line.
By the way these sections are Clunk's basis for never fighting the living (except in self-defense), and for his joining Voln. This was taught to him by his father, who was lost somewhere near the Landing near the beginning of the times after the ICE age. To Clunk, the undead are the enemy of us all.
First came The One, then Drakes, then Arkati, then all the rest of the races.
By the way, in game, Clunk is stubborn about this. Thuunk is the more contemplative historian.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
DOUG
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/25/2019 03:52 PM CST
>>The articles are also good for presenting the time line.
I hadn't seen the presentation of calendar variation before as a basis for understanding. If that's there, then my miss - apologies. If not, I still think it worthy of embedding in the wiki.
Doug
I hadn't seen the presentation of calendar variation before as a basis for understanding. If that's there, then my miss - apologies. If not, I still think it worthy of embedding in the wiki.
Doug
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/27/2019 05:27 AM CST
<<Might I suggest ensconcing in the Wiki under player research? ... I hadn't seen the presentation of calendar variation before as a basis for understanding.>> - Doug
I've considered it before and was reluctant to shine a bright beam on timeline incongruities in the documentation, but now that there are player research pages it could make sense to interpolate them. One time I was poking fun at Scribes about it and pointed out Empress Geleena Anodheles from the Krolvin-Turamzzyrian War (4926 Modern Era) must have been Emperor Trydall's wife doing her own thing. At least that one is just kind of weird but has them both mentioned by name within the same document.
The Illistim monarch document has the wrong dates for Istmaeon Illistim, he's supposed to be about two thousand years later. Caladsal Illistim should be pushed back 300 years in that document, 49249 to 49530 (142 M.E. to 423 M.E.) instead of 49549 to 49830, to be made consistent with the Ashrim War date 157 M.E. on the Timeline. I suspect these kinds of inconsistencies are just calculation errors rather than intentional, since that one made a point of basing its times to coincide with the Timeline document.
<<The Dhe'nar relation to the Book of Tormtor is also news to me. I remember no such thing(admittedly all my old files are on an un-as-yet-salvaged computer sitting in the basement). When did this idea start? ... Is it merely that she could be interpreted to be the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Noi'sho'rah, or something else?>> - Avaia
Oh, that is from way back before that history document was edited and made official, it claims the Book of Tormtor was a book left behind by Dhe'nar warlocks written in runes only they could read. I would post an earlier archived version of it on lordceltic.com from the Wayback Machine but it looks like that site is now excluded from the indexing. The original History of Elanthia with the Despana story in it from the mid-90s, before there were maps, was the only source for jungles existing past the Southron Wastes.
This looks like it is probably a copy of the original version of it, I remember the part about demon summoning being removed in the official version of this section:
https://sites.google.com/site/dhenarculturelore/history/rhoskator
I've considered it before and was reluctant to shine a bright beam on timeline incongruities in the documentation, but now that there are player research pages it could make sense to interpolate them. One time I was poking fun at Scribes about it and pointed out Empress Geleena Anodheles from the Krolvin-Turamzzyrian War (4926 Modern Era) must have been Emperor Trydall's wife doing her own thing. At least that one is just kind of weird but has them both mentioned by name within the same document.
The Illistim monarch document has the wrong dates for Istmaeon Illistim, he's supposed to be about two thousand years later. Caladsal Illistim should be pushed back 300 years in that document, 49249 to 49530 (142 M.E. to 423 M.E.) instead of 49549 to 49830, to be made consistent with the Ashrim War date 157 M.E. on the Timeline. I suspect these kinds of inconsistencies are just calculation errors rather than intentional, since that one made a point of basing its times to coincide with the Timeline document.
<<The Dhe'nar relation to the Book of Tormtor is also news to me. I remember no such thing(admittedly all my old files are on an un-as-yet-salvaged computer sitting in the basement). When did this idea start? ... Is it merely that she could be interpreted to be the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Noi'sho'rah, or something else?>> - Avaia
Oh, that is from way back before that history document was edited and made official, it claims the Book of Tormtor was a book left behind by Dhe'nar warlocks written in runes only they could read. I would post an earlier archived version of it on lordceltic.com from the Wayback Machine but it looks like that site is now excluded from the indexing. The original History of Elanthia with the Despana story in it from the mid-90s, before there were maps, was the only source for jungles existing past the Southron Wastes.
This looks like it is probably a copy of the original version of it, I remember the part about demon summoning being removed in the official version of this section:
https://sites.google.com/site/dhenarculturelore/history/rhoskator
CLUNK24963
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/27/2019 08:28 AM CST
>>Oh, that is from way back before that history document was edited and made official,
This!
That right there is why all races and cultures have different perspectives on history.
IC: scrolls cain't last long enuff to tell hist'ry. smart dwarfs put it in rock.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/27/2019 08:48 AM CST
I'm realizing that I didn't really address the timing given in the "History of Elanthia" document itself. There are straight forward contradictions with the other chronicles:
(1) It makes the vast hordes, construction of Maelshyve, and the beginning of the war sound extremely fast. Not several thousand years.
(2) The time leading up to ShadowGuard is "within a month." In the Ilynov journal it's more like half a year.
(3) ShadowGuard lasts less than a day. In the Illyan soldier's journal it is the month of point (2).
(4) There is a stalemate of years that doesn't mesh with some of the documents on dates but is compatible with other documents.
The first one might be explained as the scale of her undead horde increasing very fast leading up to the initial attacks, and this having just seemed to have suddenly happened out of no where to the Elves since it wasn't on their radar. The second depends on where you consider the position of the horde starts becoming politically relevant. The third requires reinterpreting the text to mean Taki Rassien was only at ShadowGuard that briefly. The fourth requires a timeline adjustment along the lines suggested earlier.
There are a couple of other points in this that have been treated inconsistently:
(1) Despana: Inventor of Undeath, or Inventor of the first Mass Horde?
The line in the text is: "Using this ancient work, Despana created the first of the Undead." This has often been interpreted to mean Despana was "the first mortal to make undead" or "the undead were unknown to mortals before Despana." Neither of these hold up to scrutiny for various reasons. The idea that she made the first undead by reading a book on how to make the undead by people or powers preceding her is particularly absurd. Earlier in the same document is Aramur Forean of the Wolves Den which has undead. Later with the Dhe'nar becoming official are claims of controlling the undead many thousands of years earlier. The undead have to exist to be controlled.
There are also all of the non-Luukosian sources of the undead. The Vishmiir were extraplanar undead the Elven Empire had to banish at some point prior to Despana, referenced in the "History of Fash'lo'nae" text. However many kinds of undead that arise from traumatic deaths or whatever other causes. The necromancy of demons, who can arrive through accidental tears in reality, such as vathors making necleriines from corpses. The Faendryl claim to have really been studying demons for a long time prior to it all.
(2) Demons: New Magic, or Forbidden Magic?
Similarly, the line "a new form of magic" means one thing if taken literally, and the opposite if taken as an evasion. If you interpret it as an end justifies the means gambit, it is a lie to make the others not ask questions about something they will not agree with doing. "The Battle of ShadowGuard" document pre-dates the battle of Maelshyve and has a Vaalorian soldier using the word "demons" to describe the undead. Marlu was a known figure all the way back into the Age of Darkness. The Ur-Daemon being associated with them seems understood well enough. There is no religious apologetic about Koar in a conclave regarding demons. We know servants of Lornon Arkati use them.
I think it may be sensible for some races to have been unfamiliar with demons until the Battle of Maelshyve. I'm not convinced that should be true for the Elves. If the "History of the Faendryl" document is really some twisted revisionism of otherwise non-controversial facts, something like the Palestra might have existed way before the Undead War as they claim, but as a special force for cutting them down. Whether they appeared in magical accidents, or mana storms, or some dark cultist emerged causing problems.
(1) It makes the vast hordes, construction of Maelshyve, and the beginning of the war sound extremely fast. Not several thousand years.
(2) The time leading up to ShadowGuard is "within a month." In the Ilynov journal it's more like half a year.
(3) ShadowGuard lasts less than a day. In the Illyan soldier's journal it is the month of point (2).
(4) There is a stalemate of years that doesn't mesh with some of the documents on dates but is compatible with other documents.
The first one might be explained as the scale of her undead horde increasing very fast leading up to the initial attacks, and this having just seemed to have suddenly happened out of no where to the Elves since it wasn't on their radar. The second depends on where you consider the position of the horde starts becoming politically relevant. The third requires reinterpreting the text to mean Taki Rassien was only at ShadowGuard that briefly. The fourth requires a timeline adjustment along the lines suggested earlier.
There are a couple of other points in this that have been treated inconsistently:
(1) Despana: Inventor of Undeath, or Inventor of the first Mass Horde?
The line in the text is: "Using this ancient work, Despana created the first of the Undead." This has often been interpreted to mean Despana was "the first mortal to make undead" or "the undead were unknown to mortals before Despana." Neither of these hold up to scrutiny for various reasons. The idea that she made the first undead by reading a book on how to make the undead by people or powers preceding her is particularly absurd. Earlier in the same document is Aramur Forean of the Wolves Den which has undead. Later with the Dhe'nar becoming official are claims of controlling the undead many thousands of years earlier. The undead have to exist to be controlled.
There are also all of the non-Luukosian sources of the undead. The Vishmiir were extraplanar undead the Elven Empire had to banish at some point prior to Despana, referenced in the "History of Fash'lo'nae" text. However many kinds of undead that arise from traumatic deaths or whatever other causes. The necromancy of demons, who can arrive through accidental tears in reality, such as vathors making necleriines from corpses. The Faendryl claim to have really been studying demons for a long time prior to it all.
(2) Demons: New Magic, or Forbidden Magic?
Similarly, the line "a new form of magic" means one thing if taken literally, and the opposite if taken as an evasion. If you interpret it as an end justifies the means gambit, it is a lie to make the others not ask questions about something they will not agree with doing. "The Battle of ShadowGuard" document pre-dates the battle of Maelshyve and has a Vaalorian soldier using the word "demons" to describe the undead. Marlu was a known figure all the way back into the Age of Darkness. The Ur-Daemon being associated with them seems understood well enough. There is no religious apologetic about Koar in a conclave regarding demons. We know servants of Lornon Arkati use them.
I think it may be sensible for some races to have been unfamiliar with demons until the Battle of Maelshyve. I'm not convinced that should be true for the Elves. If the "History of the Faendryl" document is really some twisted revisionism of otherwise non-controversial facts, something like the Palestra might have existed way before the Undead War as they claim, but as a special force for cutting them down. Whether they appeared in magical accidents, or mana storms, or some dark cultist emerged causing problems.
AVAIA
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/27/2019 10:10 AM CST
> Oh, that is from way back before that history document was edited and made official, it claims the Book of Tormtor was a book left behind by Dhe'nar warlocks written in runes only they could read. I would post an earlier archived version of it on lordceltic.com from the Wayback Machine but it looks like that site is now excluded from the indexing. The original History of Elanthia with the Despana story in it from the mid-90s, before there were maps, was the only source for jungles existing past the Southron Wastes.
The fact that lordceltic.com can no longer be accessed is a real shame. I wish I knew why it doesn't show up in the Wayback Machine anymore. It was of course no longer Canon, but I always found it interesting reading as both insight into the original ideas for the creation of the culture and as a source of inspiration.
But that is why I asked the question, as I don't remember it being on there. Avaia was q'hala to Starsnuffer, and her admittance into the Obsidian Tower was roughly concurrent with the formation of the Dhe'nar as an Official culture. While many of the Originals had stopped playing by then a number were still around, and I do not recall Starsnuffer, Celtic, Lochraven, Wyseth, Starshadow, et al. ever mentioning such a thing. The tale of Despana has been around for decades and it I recall, but specifics about the Book of Tormtor and its (and her) possible connections with the Dhe'nar? News to me.
This is of course not to say that it wasn't always there, and I just don't remember. Memory is a strange thing that often seems to have a life of its own.
> I don't remember where all the rumors and links come from, but here are two off the top of my head.
Thanks for the links, Darcena! Looks like I need to spend some time reading Lore documents to refresh the 'ol brainpan.
Avaia, player of
The fact that lordceltic.com can no longer be accessed is a real shame. I wish I knew why it doesn't show up in the Wayback Machine anymore. It was of course no longer Canon, but I always found it interesting reading as both insight into the original ideas for the creation of the culture and as a source of inspiration.
But that is why I asked the question, as I don't remember it being on there. Avaia was q'hala to Starsnuffer, and her admittance into the Obsidian Tower was roughly concurrent with the formation of the Dhe'nar as an Official culture. While many of the Originals had stopped playing by then a number were still around, and I do not recall Starsnuffer, Celtic, Lochraven, Wyseth, Starshadow, et al. ever mentioning such a thing. The tale of Despana has been around for decades and it I recall, but specifics about the Book of Tormtor and its (and her) possible connections with the Dhe'nar? News to me.
This is of course not to say that it wasn't always there, and I just don't remember. Memory is a strange thing that often seems to have a life of its own.
> I don't remember where all the rumors and links come from, but here are two off the top of my head.
Thanks for the links, Darcena! Looks like I need to spend some time reading Lore documents to refresh the 'ol brainpan.
Avaia, player of
VUWH60A
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/27/2019 10:17 PM CST
>The fact that lordceltic.com can no longer be accessed is a real shame. I wish I knew why it doesn't show up in the Wayback Machine anymore.
Alan would have had to specifically ask for the exclusion, no?
Alan would have had to specifically ask for the exclusion, no?
AVAIA
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/27/2019 10:38 PM CST
> Alan would have had to specifically ask for the exclusion, no?
I can't say that I know for sure. It was there for years, as recently as 2011 or so I'm almost certain. I always said to myself "You need to print out these pages some day in case they disappear" but of course I never did. Then, when I came back a few years ago from a break I went looking for it at some point and... nothing. Couldn't find it.
Avaia, player of
I can't say that I know for sure. It was there for years, as recently as 2011 or so I'm almost certain. I always said to myself "You need to print out these pages some day in case they disappear" but of course I never did. Then, when I came back a few years ago from a break I went looking for it at some point and... nothing. Couldn't find it.
Avaia, player of
INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/28/2019 08:33 AM CST
I'm not sure what the situation is with lordceltic.com and the archiving, if it was manually excluded by someone or a robots.txt file was added at some point. If the domain name expired and someone else bought it, I would think they could have excluded it from the archive themselves. I do not know if that is ever done automatically. I'm not really familiar enough with how the control of those materials have passed hands to speculate, I always relied on this site existing on the Wayback Machine for looking back.
That Google sites page looks like what I remember of the original version. noishorah.com had a clone of the original website format but the pages do not work well. The best I can do at the moment is a 1997 log of Starsnuffer telling the history at Silvergate Inn. Unfortunately, he does not outright claim it in this one, he's just insinuating it.
I would have no issue with Despana having been Dark Elven of whatever origins. It is what my own character believes. The words Despana, Tormtor, and Darthiir are all Drow words taken from the Forgotten Realms setting of Dungeons & Dragons. No idea if they had anything in mind when throwing those easter eggs in the original history.
- Xorus' player
That Google sites page looks like what I remember of the original version. noishorah.com had a clone of the original website format but the pages do not work well. The best I can do at the moment is a 1997 log of Starsnuffer telling the history at Silvergate Inn. Unfortunately, he does not outright claim it in this one, he's just insinuating it.
| Starsnuffer says, “The magi learned to use the dark magicks of the region…adding them to their already potent library of |
| spells passed onto them by the arkati themselves…they mastered many mystical arts, which I will not go into detail about |
| here.. for obvious strategic reasons.” |
| Starsnuffer says, “The Dhe’nar knew the power of what they learned and the importance of guarding its secrets. They kept |
| few written records, passing on their knowledge orally. What few records they did keep were not only written in the |
| spidery runes only a true Dhe’nar warlock can read, but also closely guarded by the magi and priests.” |
| Starsnuffer says, “Its said though… and this is purely rumor..” |
| Starsnuffer says, “…that the Dhe’nar did leave behind one tome..” |
| Starsnuffer says, “If this was merely forgotten…or if it was left with the notes on summoning some dark power that would |
| control or destroy who found it…is again…a mystery…” |
| http://tahlon.obsidiantower.com/silvergate1/ |
I would have no issue with Despana having been Dark Elven of whatever origins. It is what my own character believes. The words Despana, Tormtor, and Darthiir are all Drow words taken from the Forgotten Realms setting of Dungeons & Dragons. No idea if they had anything in mind when throwing those easter eggs in the original history.
- Xorus' player
INSPADES
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/30/2019 03:51 PM CST
Despana and the book of Tormtor was initially the means to legitimize Dhe'nar as precursors to the Elven Houses by having a prophet specifically refer to this event.
Because official history was already written, the Dhe'nar culture needed to justify why they were different than Faendryl. Being larger than life as most of the players and Varevice were at the time...choosing the most catastrophic event in Elanthian history was the perfect catalyst for their origin story.
To admit that the Dhe'nar fulfilled their own prophecy would undermine the legitimacy of their own prophet so it was excluded from documentation and remained a "subtle" RP element amongst both Dhe'nar (as a point of power) and Faendryl (as redirecting blame). In other words - the dhe'nar started it and the faendryl finished it. It was often a fun topic of debate on power and ego between the two cultures.
-player of Talinvor
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Because official history was already written, the Dhe'nar culture needed to justify why they were different than Faendryl. Being larger than life as most of the players and Varevice were at the time...choosing the most catastrophic event in Elanthian history was the perfect catalyst for their origin story.
To admit that the Dhe'nar fulfilled their own prophecy would undermine the legitimacy of their own prophet so it was excluded from documentation and remained a "subtle" RP element amongst both Dhe'nar (as a point of power) and Faendryl (as redirecting blame). In other words - the dhe'nar started it and the faendryl finished it. It was often a fun topic of debate on power and ego between the two cultures.
-player of Talinvor
-==Social Media Stuff==-
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/talinvor
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/vorrith
Website:
http://tahlon.obsidiantower.com
INSPADES
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
01/30/2019 04:29 PM CST
A lot of the cultures and locations in GS have some semblance of sourcing elsewhere. In addition to bits of the history, Despana was the first vampire and Dharthiir the first lich. The first sentient undead. As there weren't a lot of "evil culture" references on the 90s, I would say it was purposeful to use drow. Which led to expansion for dark elves.
I feel that later, Despana then became the source of bringing back the ICE dyar as at the time I think it was still high elves and no distinction in elven races yet. Starsnuffer being a high elf originally. I can't remember if players could change culture or if there was already 2 elf types.
On Dhe'nar specifically, they were purposefully not taken from real life cultures but do have Drow and Klingon elements to it.
Unfortunately those pieces were not taken into canon because violence and evil were things that SIMU did not wish to promote in a "family" game. These traditional culture concepts like castes, great hunts, trial by combat, culling the weak, slavery, apprenticeship, etc remain primarily player RP and documentation within the OT.
Given the addition of aelotoi and half-krolvin having dark backgrounds of slavery, rape and death themselves, leaves Dhe'nar remaining far blander than originally intended.
-Tal's player
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Twitter:
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Website:
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INIQUITY
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
02/04/2019 01:10 AM CST
There were three I.C.E. Age elven races in the game mechanically: High Elf, Fair Elf, Wood Elf. There's some inconsistency between Rolemaster and Shadow World books with these terms, but basically those correspond to the Loari, Linaeri, and Erlini races. The Dyar are an off-shoot of the Loari, so it would make sense for a character playing Dyari by heritage to choose High Elf. Those were shifted to Dark Elven, Elven, and Sylvan. There were also Half-Elves (the Ta-lairi in Shadow World) which were still Half-Elves.
I would not be able to source it, but I have a memory of Starsnuffer posting on the forums 17 or 18 years ago saying there was initially going to be some other race (I want to say it was gnomes), but we ended up with Dark Elves after he wore Varevice down over it. I remember him saying something to the effect of: "even if the race has to have negative bonuses in every stat." I would guess the race change decisions happened before the history covering those races was quickly whipped up. When I mentioned the Drow influences, I meant those are exactly borrowed words. Despana and Tormtor are Drow noble houses. Darthiir is their word for the surface elves they want to kill.
<<A lot of the cultures and locations in GS have some semblance of sourcing elsewhere. In addition to bits of the history, Despana was the first vampire and Dharthiir the first lich. The first sentient undead. As there weren't a lot of "evil culture" references on the 90s, I would say it was purposeful to use drow. Which led to expansion for dark elves. ... Unfortunately those pieces were not taken into canon because violence and evil were things that SIMU did not wish to promote in a "family" game. These traditional culture concepts like castes, great hunts, trial by combat, culling the weak, slavery, apprenticeship, etc remain primarily player RP and documentation within the OT. Given the addition of aelotoi and half-krolvin having dark backgrounds of slavery, rape and death themselves, leaves Dhe'nar remaining far blander than originally intended.>>
I know there was a bust representing Despana in the Landing's museum at one point that looked like a human with fangs. The only canon thing about her from back then I know of was the "nobody knows just who or what Despana was" line from the history document. My own preference is "the Undead" is a proper noun in that text and should be read as only referring to her own army. I do not know if we have had any known liches pre-dating them. The Vishmiir were later framed as much older and were sentient.
Interestingly enough, the Aelotoi and Half-Krolvin histories came out about a year after the Dhe'nar history was canonized in its reduced and blander form, they both have publishing dates of 2003. I would find it hard to imagine those documents being approved two or three years earlier. Especially what they have written for the Krolvin.
I would not be able to source it, but I have a memory of Starsnuffer posting on the forums 17 or 18 years ago saying there was initially going to be some other race (I want to say it was gnomes), but we ended up with Dark Elves after he wore Varevice down over it. I remember him saying something to the effect of: "even if the race has to have negative bonuses in every stat." I would guess the race change decisions happened before the history covering those races was quickly whipped up. When I mentioned the Drow influences, I meant those are exactly borrowed words. Despana and Tormtor are Drow noble houses. Darthiir is their word for the surface elves they want to kill.
<<A lot of the cultures and locations in GS have some semblance of sourcing elsewhere. In addition to bits of the history, Despana was the first vampire and Dharthiir the first lich. The first sentient undead. As there weren't a lot of "evil culture" references on the 90s, I would say it was purposeful to use drow. Which led to expansion for dark elves. ... Unfortunately those pieces were not taken into canon because violence and evil were things that SIMU did not wish to promote in a "family" game. These traditional culture concepts like castes, great hunts, trial by combat, culling the weak, slavery, apprenticeship, etc remain primarily player RP and documentation within the OT. Given the addition of aelotoi and half-krolvin having dark backgrounds of slavery, rape and death themselves, leaves Dhe'nar remaining far blander than originally intended.>>
I know there was a bust representing Despana in the Landing's museum at one point that looked like a human with fangs. The only canon thing about her from back then I know of was the "nobody knows just who or what Despana was" line from the history document. My own preference is "the Undead" is a proper noun in that text and should be read as only referring to her own army. I do not know if we have had any known liches pre-dating them. The Vishmiir were later framed as much older and were sentient.
Interestingly enough, the Aelotoi and Half-Krolvin histories came out about a year after the Dhe'nar history was canonized in its reduced and blander form, they both have publishing dates of 2003. I would find it hard to imagine those documents being approved two or three years earlier. Especially what they have written for the Krolvin.
KRAKII
Re: OOC Dark Elven Meeting
02/04/2019 10:03 AM CST
You are 100% correct, it was going to be gnome.
Worse yet, I believe Strom (THE highest level character in the game, for years, by a long way) would have auto-converted over to "a gnome", and there was a HUGE outcry about just how wrong that would've been. :)
Since he was a High Elf, I think that narrows down which was which.
Worse yet, I believe Strom (THE highest level character in the game, for years, by a long way) would have auto-converted over to "a gnome", and there was a HUGE outcry about just how wrong that would've been. :)
Since he was a High Elf, I think that narrows down which was which.
