The open combat skills, as far as I can tell, now both act identically (kill/attack). Both verbs now ALWAYS use the aim if you have it set. Being able to force an unaimed shot by using a different verb and without clearing aim was a functionality I found useful and used often.

The nearest I can do now is forgo the aim verb all together and use "ambush head" to force aimed shots. While this is partially effective, it requires me to set monster targets before the attack because the monster noun has to go before the aim target. Because of the order, this makes using command history or macros much less effective because the part I need to change is in the middle of the string and the curser starts at the end.

Making kill only unaimed would solve this issue. Or, if you want both of those verbs to be exactly the same, maybe a new specialized verb like "attacknoaim" could be made.

Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.

Interesting, I'm still using the aim verb the same as I always was with my paladin(s), rogue and warrior. I've a macro that I use for Aim Clear,one for Aim Head etc.(basically four aim location macros) I really changed nothing with the change. Actually scratch that, one macro change, I did used to use Ambush with my open aiming of course and now I just use Attack. So one macro changed. Basically I'm going to have to disagree that the Aim verb isn't worthless.

I agree that unaimed shots can be worthwhile--like hitting one of those 30'+ giant-sized critters in the head neck or eye--when you cannot aim too high.
I was just fine with 'attack' being unaimed and 'ambush' being targeted, with a hidden flag (to add in Ambush ranks) triggered by whether I had bothered to hide or not.
If they now behave identically, I see no real issue with a revert to having one NOT be aimed, so that such a shot can be made with a single command.
(Or add a "none" or "clear" or "unaimed" parameter to the command, to force it NOT to target.)

.

However, as a stopgap measure, I proffer this solution:
Since "aim clear" can be used during RT, just add that command to the END of your macros, so it will occur & be processed while you are still in RT from what you just did.

Then when you DO aim (ambush orc neck) that command is immediately followed by an "aim clear" so your next one will not be (unless you choose a body part for that one, too).

"as an open unaimed attack" -- Olgre, emphasis mine

To be clear: they used to work as un-aimed when in hiding, also.
The only way TO get aimed, used to be 'ambush' or go the persistent setting route with 'aim'.

>WINTERDAWN

The issue for me is, before the "QoL" update we could swap between aimed and unaimed using different verbs where the last word was the target.

With the old system, arrowing up or using a macro let me quickly type the last word in if I needed to specify a foe. For instance, grimswarm sorc walks in, I can very quickly bring up the ambush macro (aim already set to head), type sorc and send it. Or for a HW specific option, a giant mob walks in and now my aim to the head shot will fail so I bring up attack and send it. Everything could be achieved using only two verbs (ambush and attack) with no other verbs needed mid hunt. If I had to specify a specific foe, it was the last part to type and thus can be done super quick from either a macro or old command line.

Using the new system, I have either more words to delete from an old command line and then more to retype (because "attack clear orc" doesn't work), or I need to change/clear my aim location, or I need to use the target command, or I need to use a macro with a popup box to type out the middle word. All of these methods are slower and more tedious than the old version, making them the opposite of a QoL improvement.

Seeing as we have to types of open swings (aimed and unaimed) and two attack verbs, it seems reasonable to make each one do a thing. Barring that, a new verb (even if longer) that forces an unaimed attack, would let me use the older more efficient battery of arms.

Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.

Not sure of the best resolution,but totally agree with separate verbs. Non-corp undead are the perfect example of wasting a second by always aiming when it doesn't always matter.

Kerl

I'll pile on and say I hate this change. It has caused nothing but headaches for me.


- Andreas

Here's my two silver on this topic. I do appreciate your checking back in regarding these changes.

My two characters most impacted by the update:

- My paladin has stopped using open aimed attacks entirely (previously I would throw in an open AMBUSH here and there for fun).

- My ambushing rogue has stopped using open normal ATTACKs entirely.

Both characters still work fine, they just have less options than they used to. I really liked having the ability to use AMBUSH / ATTACK to differentiate my aimed attacks vs. the faster not-aimed attacks. The new syntax has restricted my available options in this regard.

All of my hunting is done using function keys or straight up typing (I do use a combat cast .cc macro and a .get macro). The new syntax isn't really friendly to this hunting style as it requires me to type additional stuff AFTER the target name.

At some point I may create some additional macros to try and recover the lost feature but I guess that's my complaint about this QOL update in a nutshell... It takes more effort / macros to get back to what was already working fine (for me) previously. Also thinking that any macros I create may have to deal with the ...wait issue and/or potentially be slower due to having to issue multiple command lines.

Anyhow, that's where I am with the new syntax, keeping in mind I spend the other 80% of my game time hunting my wizard who isn't impacted by this at all.

-- Robert

From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.

It was nice to be able to quickly switch between open aimed and unaimed attacks without entering additional parameters or commands. I agree the verb structure of the new way is more sensible than the old, but it pretty much demands a macro, or at least keeping something on the clipboard, if you like to switch between them. Before the change, you were 3 characters away from a done deal. Old habits aside, and I'm not sure they should be, the 3 character thing feels very important. Even the spacing of the letters you have to type (amb) is pretty important. It's hard to change things like this after so many years.

The way AIM interacts with AMBUSH is reasonable. Since going back to AMBUSH is unlikely, maybe a new verb for open ambush only can provide the same functionality - respects AIM settings, can be entered in 3-4 characters with no parser conflicts, and relatively easy to type in a pinch. (For example, think verbs like DRAG, and how they are used.) It might be useful to have for the people using FIRE or THROW, too, to have a verb they can use without needing to change aim settings very often.

Personally, I'd rather see ATTACK/AMBUSH default to an unaimed attack if the location set via AIM already has a rank 3 wound. This is the main reason I'd want to use an unaimed attack on characters that utilize the AIM verb. Previously, I'd have switched between the two verbs depending on whether I wanted an attack to be aimed or not.... but remembering that using clear as an argument is a thing just isn't happening till just after I hit enter.

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

I used to try to ambush some creatures with some characters for their legs from the open if I was having issues knocking them down with a spell or I can't hide well from them....

But I don't like how you have to AIM for a location now and once you aim you're constantly going for that same location over and over again until you clear it. It makes it kind of a pain in the rear for my warmage since he's swinging at 1 second intervals.

I don't see anything wrong with having AIM how it works, but it would be nice if AMBUSH was left to work as it did.

I also have pretty much given up open aiming as a result of this change.

>>So, you guys have had a few months to adapt to the new system of attack/ambush. Is this still a valid concern, or was it just overcoming the learning curve involved in adopting a new syntax for combat?


I'm slow on the reply for this because we've been moving and very busy, but yes, absolutely yes. The change is still really annoying and makes me not want to hunt because it's so much more trouble now.

- Andreas

<Post cap mechanics talk dominates in an unhelpful way for those who need to ask questions or seek information about the rest of the game. There truly is two games of Gemstone these days.>

Very true, esp since HW opened. Unless you specifically state it's a low-level character and/or you have no interest in hunting HW, 90% of the feedback you get on Discord is gonna be irrelevant (and even then, I see advice that can only make sense for those hunting HW). If nothing else the Hinterwilds thread at Mechanics>Mechanics>Hinterwilds needs to be made its own topic at Mechanics>Hinterwilds

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

>> Just curious as to what macros you have that mitigate this mechanic? I have basic macros like F3 = Ambush, F4 = Mstrike, and a bunch of others.

The Wizard FE (and Wrayth fka Stormfront) have a scripting macro language so you can write basic code to do things for you. I believe that is what the OP is referring to when they say macros. The use of function keys would be different (not macros) and the new attack / ambush mechanic doesn't appear to have taken this playstyle into consideration very well.

-- Robert

From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.

Thanks for the correction / clarification Krakii.

>> The suggestion that I had made (bunches of posts ago) was to just add " target clear\r" to your existing macro key.


For my playstyle I used to type "amb" or "att" and some few letters to id the specific target when needed. I use the Function keys for specific spells and maneuvers. So for my pally, they look something like this (I have alt and shift and ctrl function keys as well for some case but the below should provide a solid example):

F1: \xprep pioustrial\rcast
F2: \xincant 1608\rprep stunrelif
F3: \xprep 1604\rcast on my tower shield\r
f4: \xincant dshield

F5: \xshield strike
F6: \xcman truestrike
F7: \xcman feint
F8: \xcman disarm

F9: \xprep 1615\rcast
F10: \xprep 1614\rcast
F12: \xbeseech sword conserve\r

The common theme here being that with very few keystrokes I can do any number of things to my current target or very easily select a specific target by adding a few characters. Hard coding specific target names doesn't really play here well at all. At least not for me.

Prior to the QOL update, I could use ATT or AMB to accomplish an unaimed or an aimed attack with the same ease "att orc" or "amb orc". Post update, now I have to either type CLEAR after the target name every time I want to do an unaimed attack or I have to type aiming syntax after the target name. It's just slower, clunkier, and prone to typos vs. the old method. For me, it's a better trade off to only use one or the other for any give character vs. dealing with the aforementioned downsides of the new system.

It was very handy having an attack command that could utilize AIM and one that did not. I really hope the choose to reintroduce a basic attack command that ignores AIM at some point or provide a setting that will allow you to choose to disassociate ATTACK from AIM (so effectively you could go back to the old ATTACK / AMUSH style - though they sort of broke AMBUSH with the only from hiding change as well).

Anyhow - thanks for the info and I guess we'll see what changes get made based on the feedback that was provided.


-- Robert

From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.

<<That's just it, in my opinion the choices of those cmans are pigeonholing. They pigeonhole you into the role of dirty, underhanded fighters. The actual root was missed by you, that the tools available come off unchivalrous by and large. Headbutt being the least of those but again in my opinion it is dirty fighting. Personally my dwarf has no issue dirty fighting but that's him. Also, yeah I'm quite aware that I've limited my character to a less effective, less min max role by going pure two hander, that's me and its been a part of who I am as a player since I first started playing Gemstone back in the fall of 1992. So I fully understand the shortcomings and weaknesses of my choices. Say la vie as the saying goes.

Paladin's can learn to Pickpocket, right? 99.9999999999% of people say pickpocketing is dirty. But guess what? You most likely don't train in it because it's considered dirty to your PC. So why can't CMANs been seen with the same train of thought?

>>Also, yeah I'm quite aware that I've limited my character to a less effective, less min max role by going pure two hander, that's me and its been a part of who I am as a player since I first started playing Gemstone back in the fall of 1992.

That there is the difference between playing a game, and playing a character.


Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)

"Open Ambush is what we used to call it?" -- Hippo-Grande

I always tried to use "aimed" (or not), in order to make the distinction of whether or not Ambush ranks added in for the crit ("from hidden", or not). So you could have
- an unaimed swing while not hidden ("Attack orc");
- an aimed swing while not hidden ("ambush orc left leg");
- an unaimed swing while hidden ("attack orc" and get higher crit results due to ranks of Ambush); or
- an aimed swing while hidden ("ambush orc left leg" and get higher crit results due to ranks of Ambush).