It appears that with some unintentional finagling, it is possible to exceed the normal limits on known spells. At least for a limited period of time. With enough spare training points available, it appears that this could be pushed to much further extremes for a limited period of time (and allow a character to potentially avoid the use of multiple fixskills for a short term boost to Enchanting / Ensorcell / etc casts).
Sure, at the end of it you'd have to wait for all those points to untrain to do it again but seems like something that could definitely be abused.
> skill
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 110
Minor Elemental....................| 77
Wizard.............................| 117
Total: 304
> skill base
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 110.341 109 9 hours, 5 minutes
Minor Elemental....................| 77 77
Wizard.............................| 117 117
Actual Total: 304 / Goal Total: 303
I submitted the following bug report:
bug OTHER;Skill training allows characters to exceed training limits within groups (e.g. spells known).; If I have a pool of training points available, I can untrain my Major Elt (for example) to greatly boost my Wizard ranks long enough to enchant an item. Then I can simply go back and untrain the wizard ranks and retrain the major elemental. My 'pool' of TPs will be locked up until they untrain the wizard but I can effectively circumvent using two fixskills to get an enchant boost with no downside other than waiting on the TPs to become available again.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
PEREGRINEFALCON
KRAKII
Re: Spell Ranks in excess of the professional limit (303)
10/16/2021 12:26 PM CDT
In your example, there was a delta of only one (1) spell. No matter how heavily the Wizard-base ranks are weighted, I do not think that is going to be too terribly bad.
In order to do what I think you are concerned about--such as "shift 50 from ListX to ListY"--first the person would need to have the unspent points for all of the new benefit (so 32 x 50 == 1600mtps UNspent, or 3200ptps more likely).
Then go in, unlearn X (doubling "# of points available"), train up Y (spending the points you had "free" to begin with), ending with same # of points (from the unlearned spells).
And even so, I believe the untrain process only credits you with the NEXT spell when the current one finishes unconverting.
Only if you had ranks not already known (50/50/50, and a bunch of unused points) would it work (end at 25/25/150), and even then I believe you SEE 50/50/100 (from spending the unused points) and then the time crawl as this one unlearns & that one goes up.
.
Short version: because you are at cap, best I think you can do is +/- 1 (what is actively changing at the moment).
In order to do what I think you are concerned about--such as "shift 50 from ListX to ListY"--first the person would need to have the unspent points for all of the new benefit (so 32 x 50 == 1600mtps UNspent, or 3200ptps more likely).
Then go in, unlearn X (doubling "# of points available"), train up Y (spending the points you had "free" to begin with), ending with same # of points (from the unlearned spells).
And even so, I believe the untrain process only credits you with the NEXT spell when the current one finishes unconverting.
Only if you had ranks not already known (50/50/50, and a bunch of unused points) would it work (end at 25/25/150), and even then I believe you SEE 50/50/100 (from spending the unused points) and then the time crawl as this one unlearns & that one goes up.
.
Short version: because you are at cap, best I think you can do is +/- 1 (what is actively changing at the moment).
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Spell Ranks in excess of the professional limit (303)
10/16/2021 12:32 PM CDT
>> Short version: because you are at cap, best I think you can do is +/- 1 (what is actively changing at the moment).
Assuming you are correct that this can only swing by +/- 1 then I agree it would not be open to potential abuse. I'll test this theory out once I have enough free TPs to swing it by at least 2 spell ranks.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
Assuming you are correct that this can only swing by +/- 1 then I agree it would not be open to potential abuse. I'll test this theory out once I have enough free TPs to swing it by at least 2 spell ranks.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Spell Ranks in excess of the professional limit (303)
11/06/2021 03:53 PM CDT
Following up on this.
>> Short version: because you are at cap, best I think you can do is +/- 1 (what is actively changing at the moment).
Assuming you are correct that this can only swing by +/- 1 then I agree it would not be open to potential abuse. I'll test this theory out once I have enough free TPs to swing it by at least 2 spell ranks.
Looks like you can sway it by at least 2 levels. I'll do more testing as more experience points become available.
>skill
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 108
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 120
Total spells known: 305
>skill base
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 108.995 105 4 days, 19 hours, 14 minutes
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 120 121 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
>> Short version: because you are at cap, best I think you can do is +/- 1 (what is actively changing at the moment).
Assuming you are correct that this can only swing by +/- 1 then I agree it would not be open to potential abuse. I'll test this theory out once I have enough free TPs to swing it by at least 2 spell ranks.
Looks like you can sway it by at least 2 levels. I'll do more testing as more experience points become available.
>skill
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 108
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 120
Total spells known: 305
>skill base
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 108.995 105 4 days, 19 hours, 14 minutes
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 120 121 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
KRAKII
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Spell Ranks in excess of the professional limit (303)
12/20/2021 06:01 PM CST
I'm done testing this but it can clearly be abused if someone wants to keep a large enough experience pool handy. My last test on this:
309 Ranks in Spell training. 6 more than the normal allowed training limit.
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 106
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 126
So I can effectively boost by Wizard spells, channel my 925 enchant on a difficult project, and then revert back to my "normal" spell training without any down time (other than waiting for my experience points to be reclaimed over time for the next time I want to do this).
Here is the Skill Base view where I can revert to my original 106 ranks of Major Elemental in just a few minutes. (I started with 120 in Wizard and 106 in MjE for this test.)
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 105.996 100 14 days, 5 hours, 56 minutes
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 126 126
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
309 Ranks in Spell training. 6 more than the normal allowed training limit.
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 106
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 126
So I can effectively boost by Wizard spells, channel my 925 enchant on a difficult project, and then revert back to my "normal" spell training without any down time (other than waiting for my experience points to be reclaimed over time for the next time I want to do this).
Here is the Skill Base view where I can revert to my original 106 ranks of Major Elemental in just a few minutes. (I started with 120 in Wizard and 106 in MjE for this test.)
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 105.996 100 14 days, 5 hours, 56 minutes
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 77 77
Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 126 126
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
BBRODRIGUEZ
Re: Spell Ranks in excess of the professional limit (303)
12/21/2021 12:08 AM CST
Might be one of those things that doesn't get fixed unless the system is re-worked.
Under the previous enchanting essence gaining system I could manipulate it were I could build up the previous week's pool of allowed essence gain without the pool re-setting to the current week. So if by some chance I only earned 40k for last week's pool and it will reset counting to the new week's pool, I knew how to bypass it so I could earn that missed 10k from the previous week and then still earn the 50k from the current week. It was tedious and required a set of precise steps, but it could easily be replicated. By "tedious" I mean, a lot of work and dedication to not screwing up the timing. Trying to recoup 1k of missed essence took 4-5x longer than it would be to normally earn that 1k essence during the normal gathering week. I even had someone confirm it for me that it could be replicated. It's not really a game breaking thing, but it was cheating since you're picking up essence you forfeit by not earning during the previous week. However, with the current earning system of essence the "trick" no longer works. I was going to post this bypass bug, but a few months after I came across it and had someone else confirm they could do it, the GMs already had just pushed out the current essence earning method for wizards so it was moot at that point.
I know there is a way to easily bypass the level 20 stop earning experience thing and how you have to "confirm" you're skills/stats are ready before you can hit level 20. I outlined a detailed post about it years ago and even emailed to NIRs about it, but nothing ever came from it. As far as I know, you can still bypass this stop they put in place before training to level 20, but last time I tried it was 3 or 4 years ago when I put an alt past level 20.
Your finding is kind of like the essence gaining bypass I came across. Sure, you can do it and it would benefit you to some degree for enchanting power, but it's a small amount that seems rather tedious to try and abuse now that there is the SUFFICE verb that lets you build up a bonus your casting power. I doubt we'll see an adjustment to how the system works without some hard code adjustment that would probably have to go into the core of the training system, but that's just a guess on my part.
Under the previous enchanting essence gaining system I could manipulate it were I could build up the previous week's pool of allowed essence gain without the pool re-setting to the current week. So if by some chance I only earned 40k for last week's pool and it will reset counting to the new week's pool, I knew how to bypass it so I could earn that missed 10k from the previous week and then still earn the 50k from the current week. It was tedious and required a set of precise steps, but it could easily be replicated. By "tedious" I mean, a lot of work and dedication to not screwing up the timing. Trying to recoup 1k of missed essence took 4-5x longer than it would be to normally earn that 1k essence during the normal gathering week. I even had someone confirm it for me that it could be replicated. It's not really a game breaking thing, but it was cheating since you're picking up essence you forfeit by not earning during the previous week. However, with the current earning system of essence the "trick" no longer works. I was going to post this bypass bug, but a few months after I came across it and had someone else confirm they could do it, the GMs already had just pushed out the current essence earning method for wizards so it was moot at that point.
I know there is a way to easily bypass the level 20 stop earning experience thing and how you have to "confirm" you're skills/stats are ready before you can hit level 20. I outlined a detailed post about it years ago and even emailed to NIRs about it, but nothing ever came from it. As far as I know, you can still bypass this stop they put in place before training to level 20, but last time I tried it was 3 or 4 years ago when I put an alt past level 20.
Your finding is kind of like the essence gaining bypass I came across. Sure, you can do it and it would benefit you to some degree for enchanting power, but it's a small amount that seems rather tedious to try and abuse now that there is the SUFFICE verb that lets you build up a bonus your casting power. I doubt we'll see an adjustment to how the system works without some hard code adjustment that would probably have to go into the core of the training system, but that's just a guess on my part.
