>>Quite a lot. I'd be really annoyed if 201 and 301 suffered the fate of 1201 and got taken away from players for not being used enough. All those poor critters that would have to be murdered instead of Calmed when they are trolling my escorts!

I think we can agree that utility spells with niche uses are worth having in your toolkit, even if the situations to use them aren't presenting themselves every outing.

A damage generally doesn't have any niche uses unless it has some kind of secondary effect. Are you really missing 1201 that much?

Viduus

"deeper analysis may be forthcoming" -- Me, #3590

Okay, so I've had a few days to let this reverberate around in my head, and I've got some more thoughts & questions. :)

Because of being a Semi, the same "CS from spell ranks" is calculated across in the new version, just with "Minor Mental" number used instead of "Minor Elemental"? (I cannot think of why this would NOT be the case, but I want to ask juuuuuust to double-check.)

---

Being able to un-train 101 ranks of Elemental Lore frees up a ton of points. And recovering the Ascension points from them lets those be shifted around, too. Just "one per level" allows for a Telepathy/Manipulation split of 51/50 (weighted whichever way you choose), and the Ascension I will be using (at 2nd tier) for 4 points/+2 on one and 6 points/+3 on the other, so I will end at 53 each.
(Actually, reading through Blink/1215, it will be completely worth it to sink a grand total of three (3) ranks into Transference just for the extra +2% chance, and make up the difference with future Ascension points. Given how often I see "current armor skill 2%" hindrances, this should pay off ALL THE DAMN TIME.)
(And reading through Vertigo/1219 makes me want to get three more (total of six) ranks of Transference, which should be 2 points of reduced warding needed for # of cycles' effect.)

Dropping the MC:Elemental to only 30 ranks (at current cost == 10 ranks at higher cost) == 50 skill, so "still able to share to other professions"; those 20 ranks given up pay for the bulk of getting 10 ranks/50 skill in MC:Spirit (to be able to share with those professions).

Net changes:
- CM up to fully singled (never bothered, as a casting Bard);
- Perception up to fully doubled;
- MC:Mental up to 100 ranks for even-number breakpoints (with attendant increase to 5 daily Mana Spellup);
- modest gains to MIU and Harness Power (though both still <150 ranks)
- Minor Mental to 50 ranks & Songs to 106 (essentially a lateral transfer from 75 Elemental/82 Songs).

OR I could leave essentially all other training untouched (no gains to CM, Perception, MIU, Harness) except for picking up the 10 MC:Spirit, lateral the Spell Research ranks as above, and be at 183 out of 202 possible Spell Aiming. Because meditated Telekinesis for boosted damage output looks pretty nice...

---

Spell effects:
- self-cast Soothing Word/1201;
- +4 AsG from Iron Skin/1202;
- 3 targets from PowerSink/1203 (and just a few Ascension/Enhancive points from a 4th);
- +5 INFluence == +2 bonus (also CS) == +6s medley duration from Glamour/1205;
- +0.05 DF to Telekinesis/1206 (but in the one path I would have no Aimed Spells);
- almost to +10 UAF from Dragonclaw/1209 (just a few Ascension away);
- roughly +3/4 crit rank from Thought Lash/1210 (100 skill == about half, so 150 skill == half that again);
- BIG winner with Confusion/1211: 20% chance to attack normally, 40% chance to attack allies, 40% chance to not attack;
- able to charge my own Shimmer Trinket;
- paying only 65% stamina for all GoS sigils from Mind Over Body/1213 == 33 stamina for 50 mana == use it three times for -100 / +150 (my stamina recovery is hovering +/- 50 per pulse... and stamina pulses happen TWICE as often as mana does). I have already been treating GoS as a +50 Mana Recovery Enhancive, this conversion will make it effectively a +75 Mana Recovery;
- Vertigo/1219 mass-effect dizziness & roundtime would immediately become my intro spell (particularly things like the Reim Royalty, guaranteed to be multi-creatures);
- 35 DS from Premonition/1220 (@ 50 spell ranks) for 28 mana makes up for a sizable part of Elemental Barrier/430;
- Mindwipe/1225 might actually beat out Vertigo/1219 for my first choice against the Reim Royalty, because "lower levels" == "easier to survive the his maneuvers & her casts";
- and +2 "party size" effectiveness from Provoke/1235.

---

Glamour/1205: since the lower part of GSWiki says that it follows how Enhancives work, shouldn't the TOP part be changed to just say "it provides a +20 bonus to Trading", and not reference "ranks" at all? Since it sounds like that is, in fact, how it behaves...

Telekinesis/1206: will the (new, Mental) Bards have any OTHER bolt spells, or is this the only one that would be native to them?
* Any possibility of Bards getting access to Arcane Blast/1700 for another bolt?
* "If the specified object is in the caster's hand, it will be immediately returned after the cast." Does weighting/flare on an object affect the target struck by it? (I could see buying up some feras daggers from pawn shops and Telekinesing those across...) Does Enchant on a handheld object count towards the Aimed Spells AS/DS comparison? If you use a Brimstone/325 gem for your inanimate object, does it do multiple waves of damage to the creature (normally it would try to do "one per creature in the room", right?) it hits?
* Since both Sonic Weapon & Sonic Shield are considered in the caster's hand--and now BOTH of those have a chance for flares...--can we Telekinese our Sonic Shield over? Sonic Runestaff? Dancing Weapon is "an object in the room", so...??

Force Projection/1207: harder to resist than EWave (which I find interesting) and available three levels sooner... but of course, only single-target.

Mindward/1208: so what about mental TD? Nothing casts mental spells besides other PCs. <snort>

Thought Lash/1210: "residue energy that increases subsequent critical damage on the target. This effectively gives the target negative critical padding." Does reduced padding work for CS/TD spells' effectiveness, too, or only AS/UAF attacks?

Mind Over Body/1213: GMs have long stated that all Lore ranks are effective, so if 30 ranks give 15% reduction and 80 ranks give 20% reduction, that's a tier of 50 ranks. Someone who possess 50 ranks gets the payoff from 30 (== 15% reduction), and they then have 40% of the next tier (20 of the 50 required). Does this person get 40% of the tier of benefit == 2% additional reduction? (50 ranks == 17% reduction, in other words.)
* Completely unlikely to ever use any Focus spell other than Mind Over Body. "Save stamina being spent" == "able to use it for something else handy."

---

War Chant/1001: see previous discussions of ways to improve. Not impressed with as-is.

Resonance/1002: perfectly usable spell to kill things with now; would be improved if we could choose which hand to go after and/or if "worn armor" could also be affected.

Dissonance/1003: inexpensive damage? See VibeChant analysis of a moment ago, NOW! without the requirement of "be holding something."

Purification/1004: still willing to accept this being made easier.

Lullaby/1005: still concerned about "SSR scales favorably with level" == "useless against over-level opponents."

Etude/1006: see previous point about Mental TD from Mindward/1208. Nothing frickin' casts Mental, except other PCs, who gives a hang?
- On the plus side, +6CS, and the seventh is just a few Ascension away.

Kai's/1007: +20 group AS, +40 more for me as caster, +10 more to entire group from Lore.
* Still curious whether that would equate to +42 CS, given the +5AS/+3CS going rate of conversion for half of everything nowadays. If so, see my previous point about "largely making up for the loss of Targeting."
- Given that the Mental TDs are likely to be lower than Elemental was, I could also see this being done for JUST the base + Lore, and NOT adding CS for the "+ more Songs known" group. (So for me it would be +18 CS... but facing the lower Mental TD numbers.)

Banshee's Wail/1008: able to 'evoke', so could really see going that Aimed Spells route above...

Shield/1009: would still have all three shield size reductions.

Valor/1010: Is an Aimed spell considered a "physical attack", since there is something actually smacking into the target? (Evoked Banshee, Telekinesis)
* Still waiting to hear if CMans/SBash count.

Aria/1011: "rooted" == "they do no maneuvers", and just a few Ascension away from combat instrument bonus.

Weapon/1012: loss of 75 Air ranks (gave 30% chance for second flare) but step up to larger tiers so getting around 28% chance from Manipulation.

Unravel/1013: THIS SPELL NEEDS TO REMOVE THE EXTRA "YOU GET A RANDOMIZED RESULT" from the mana sucked from the target. We have a random result: it's called the d100 roll. I continue not to understand why there was then an additional randomization introduced, BEFORE the mana control check happened... and even then, the MOST you could get from the target was "half as much as was drained." Now that we are no longer paying only 4 mana for renewals, but instead the full 13 mana for a new cast, THIS NEEDS TO BE UPDATED.
* Still curious about "5s fire!" effect if the target preps a spell. See also, Reim Empress.

Armor/1014: -2% for me. Every little bit is golden.
* The listed document says -1% @25, -2% @50, and -4% at 100. Uhhh... what the hell happened to "GMs always saying that Lore ranks always count", and the obvious "-3% @ 75" step that was completely left out? Why not just phrase it as "-1% per 25 ranks of ML:Manipulation" and walk away?

Requim/1015: auto-success == good. Thank you again. ~18% chance for me to give a Dirge effect, and again: I may want to keep most skills static and just lateral to Aimed Spells.

Traveller's/1016: still a reasonably handy "get me home" ability. Now with not having to worry about getting poisoned from old water, sure, I'm fine.

Cacophany/1017: maybe you'll start hearing me love-love gush on 2s server-side effects for a change. (Though for the record: it's still too fast. Yes, I'm looking at you, Earthen Fury.)

Power/1018: being a Focus spell means that I will essentially never use it any more, because even the +30-something that I get with it right now--for ONE pulse in every two minutes, whether it is on my schedule [manual with mana pulse] or whatever the game does--pales to insignificance behind "+75 mana every two minutes" from -35% stamina cost from Mind Over Body.
* However much I would enjoy it if there were able to be "one Focus spell from each list" (one from Minor Mental, one from Bard), I think it may be too powerful.
* BUT, since there was already an Ascension proposal to allow for more than one Martial Stance to be in effect, I see no reason why there could not be a similar Ascension ability to permit more than one Focus spell to be in effect.

Mirrors/1019: still going to be using it, thanks.

Luck/1020: service, cool. First step of boost on runestaff/combat instrument == "REMOVE 1% chance of fumble," please. Everything else, perfectly okay with.
+ Plus up the chance of flares? Sold. How likely is that "possible" to actually come to pass?
* In the "possible benefit" section, it makes mention of Dancing Weapon as being one of the potential targets for increased flare chance. I was unaware of Dancing Weapon flaring at all, or even being possible to in the upcoming change. Is it going to be? Same as Sonic Weapon? Lore effects for + second flare?

Dancing Weapon/1025: I would still like to see the weapon count as part of FvF (to include if the Bard has trained in CMan:Side By Side), and for it to provide an additional chance for Parry (if the Bard is in Neutral/Guarded/Defensive).
+ Even nicer would be if the additional command could be given to have the weapon guard someone else ("go dance around over there for a while").

Disruption/1030: mass damage still. Pricey, but what the heck.
* Still waiting on clarification of my earlier question of "Lore + Instrument (now to max of 30) works the same as current Lore + Instrument (to max of 60)" question.

Tonis/1035: I'll be at -2s/floor of 2 (rather than -3s/floor of 1 as now), and +40 (of 70 possible) ranks of Dodging... but not having to CAST THE DAMN THING every 2 minutes will be a HUGE FRICKIN' BOON.

Rally/1040: still like to see us able to break through RT...

On second thought, has the survey window even been opened yet?

The document was shared... on the 21st? and indicates that the SURVEY verb will be updated. Having it already closed wouldn't even give people a reasonable amount of time to have reviewed and digested the material to form an opinion in many cases.

>> Survey

>> The SURVEY verb in-game will be updated and we invite all Bards of 20th or higher level to participate. We will use this data to determine how to move forward with this proposal.

My guess is that they haven't opened the survey up for people yet. It would be great if there is a post indicating when we can complete the official survey in game.

-- Robert

>> A mongrel kobold points at you and yells, "Mine! Chasin!"

"If Dev was to decide that all squares should have MnE and MnS because those are the square circles, I would find it very hard to express my reaction without breaching forum guidelines, no matter what the net mechanical balance was." -- RathboneR

I was always hopeful that they would do what RoleMaster did: the first time a purely weapons-class learned a spell, they chose the (at the time, "Open", now "Minor") Realm list that they were going to train in, and from then on they were locked into that decision. It determined which stat gave them mana, was their warding stat, and so on.
So, until they learn a spell, Warrior & Rogue & Monk could learn "any of Minor Mental, Minor Spirit, or Minor Elemental."
But as soon as they successfully do a Spell Research training and learn their first, from that point on they are EITHER mental, or spirit, or elemental.
No crossing the streams.

.

"killing stuff accidentally" -- ibid

I would routinely smoke things with VibeChant/1002 and wind up with them dead, when I was just trying to make things a little safer for us by removing damage potential (if their weapon blew up) or easier to hit (if their shield blew up). Happened ALL the time in the Illoke Stronghold, against mystics & shamen.

I've got your Substitutiary Locomotion right here, bucko... :)

I just want to say how much I appreciate all of you who are digging into the nitty gritty of the proposal. I don't really do mechanics, and with my bard especially I am sure I'm vastly underutilizing the profession. (Basic spell and song set, tonis, UCS has gotten me to 72). And I'm completely petrified by the idea of adapting to what is essentially a whole new profession. So I'm really grateful that there are folks out there who can parse out the changes and help the GMs make sure that it's a fair and positive change.

Rasska

Please dont change anything that makes lockpicking take longer for bards. You already made a change that did this once. (remember when you blocked tonis from cutting down loresinging roundtime... that added 3 seconds a box to lockpicking).

So why did we have to increase loresinging RT a couple years ago by stopping tonis from affecting it again??? Its almost like we had a way that training reduced loresinging rate, we got rid of it, and now its going to be added back. Kind of points out the obvious - too many changes. Add hunting areas and stop fiddling...

I am late to the discussion as usual, but I needed some time to focus my inarticulate rage at this proposal into something close to coherent and constructive.

I was really excited for this review I had hoped it would address the concerns and suggestions raised during the initial survey of bards. The current implementation proposal doesn't seem to address much of what bards said we wanted.

There isn't anything in the minor mental sphere that is more bard like than the minor elemental list, with the possible exception of shroud of deception and that is only because it was an idea originally suggested by bards and should have been our skill from inception. The MnE spell list provides essential defensive and utility spells for bards, that are not in any way represented in the MnM spell list. we lose out on picking and disarm lore, the ability to magically open boxes, a constant 50 CS from 425 that is not compensated for at anything close to parity in the MnM spell list. Most of the MnM spells are geared towards UAC and bards have not been given any UAC specializations, or martial stances to help with that combat style, the reassignment of bards to this spell list seems arbitrary and forced and seems to be a poor fit. Many of the spells require transference or transformation lore but again bards can only 1x mental lore and the benefits from manipulation and telepathy lore mechanically dictate that is where our limited mental lore points will go.

The changes to the bard spell circle, seem to remove the control of manual renewals, which has the effect of forcing a warding check every 60 seconds to keep my songs going, which does not feel like a QoL improvement, when I currently have a 10 minute renewal cycle. They also seem to drastically increase the lore requirements for manipulation and telepathy lore, in an attempt to downplay the importance elemental lore air has historically played for bards. I appreciate the efforts towards an arbitrary consistency, but unless you are going to allow bards to 2x mental lore, most bards are going to see a reduction in the efficacy of close to half their spell songs, depending on which lore they chose. The balance and distribution of the proposed lore benefits also seem heavily slanted towards telepathy.

1001 - I don't get why a spell that adds +10AS/+6 CS has additional RT added on the subsequent attack, or more precisely I'm not sure why I would use something that adds rt like that, when I can rub a blue crystal, but I guess I would try it.

1002 - I like the idea of this working on boxes, hopefully it works on plinites, but it does worry me that I will have to spend 45 to 90 seconds of RT downgrading like level boxes, traps, and plinites, if bards lose access to the MnE spell list. Many bards are locksmiths, or just generally roguish, so anything that removes the handful of skills we get to allow us to open our own stuff should be conserved, recreated, or improved upon, not taken away.

1003 - This spell ends up working like a better version of 1203, when it triggers, but a guaranteed prevention of casting is always better. Good thing we can learn throatchop.

1004 - I saw a lot of bards ask for this process to have a way to be sped up perhaps at the cost of max value. I would just like to be able to channel a certain amount of mana into a gem once or twice to attempt to purify a gem as much as possible. Or lower the RT to 1 second. I don't care if it auto targets my hand.

1005 - I really love this song, I use it every hunt, I don't like the change for the reasons mentioned by others, what about above level? Can I sleep an invasion creature? asking for a friend. I really felt like there should have been a multi cast option added I know I asked for that, especially since anyone in voln can do it with a seemingly guaranteed success rate.

1006 - I definitely asked for more TD, but this is not what I meant, nothing is casting mental spells at me, I need spirit/elemental TD this spell should give generic TD defense for the bard, kind of like 430 but cheaper. At 96 ranks of telepathy lore this would also net me +11 CS which is not going to make up for the loss of 425 if you switch the spell lists.
.
1007 - It seems clear in the proposal you see how severe the AS/CS loss from not having 425 would be, why does 1007 only address the AS issue? Why not just make this song give both AS and CS boost to the bard?

1008 - This song is great as implemented I get a guaranteed amount of damage if it wards the target thanks to my 102 ranks of air lore, its a sure fire 33-50 point disabler, will it still do consistent damage for me? I am skeptical that increased critical ranks will make the damage better given the endrolls I see on like level stuff. I also don't like this spell proposal because of the introduction of spell aiming as a requirement since it now has a bolt component. I am 4x capped and still haven't found the extra experience to drop into spell aiming, I don't see how any bard pre cap pulls that off. Its a feature yes, but it seems hidden behind a skill gate few will be able to cross.

1009 - The shield is made of air, here is where the arguments against bards being elemental starts to fray, why would this be moved to a manipulation lore benefit? We can only 1x mental lore so I am going to have to lose out on telepathy lore benefits to several songs to retain a functionality I currently have and that makes more sense to be governed by elemental affinity. I like the idea of reactive flares, but I coulda sworn bards asked that we be able to add sonic flares to non-sonic/physical weapons.

1010 - I'm good with this change as long as it doesn't cap the DS bonus

1011 - I dunno what to think of this song I do wonder why it isn't controlled by telepathy if you are using song to root things in place. and the whirling dervish benefits, seem like they should be controlled by the bards multi-opponent combat training. I'm curious to try it out though.

1012 - No on the lore implementation, they are made of air and called sonic for a reason. Again we can only 1x in mental lore it is a nerf to force more lore benefits in a skill we can realistically only get 50 ranks in, to keep abilities we currently have.

1013 - So if I am reading this right, I have to sing this again at full cost when I drain mana from a wand but don't get it all. Does the amount of mana drawn been increased as a result of this change?

1014 - IF rangers can add 50% elemental resistance, then sonic armor's elemental resistance cap should be much much higher than 20% since we are actually elemental not spiritual.

1015 - I really do not like this proposed spell implementation, 1015 was a crowd control song that was low cost if you manually renewed it judiciously. I can sing it up for 15 mana and add +4 RT to anything that swarms the room, and lower their TD by about 30, for just 6 mana for my entire 10 minute song renewal cycle. This new version removes the RT effect and the TD pushdown and makes it cost 15 mana every time while not doing anything to the target. I guess I might use it if it worked with all my attack spells, not just 1008. How are you going to make up the need for TD pushdown and crowd control that is being removed from this spell?

1016 - This seems like a good change, I would have loved a way for bards to teleport to someone for the sake of rescues but not dying of thirst is a gift that keeps on giving and is a legit QoL improvement.

1017 - It costs 17 mana a pop, why doesn't this spell immediately have a chance to prevent the target from casting? I also am not wild about losing an AoE spell for a single target version with a delayed/conditional effect.

1018 - Currently, I can have 1018 going with mind over body and it doesn't seem unbalancing, it is a song not a MnM spell, why should these be mutually exclusive effects? I think the explosion possibility needed to go. nothing else needs to be changed about this song.

1019 - good job

1020 - You kept the functionality the same, but more than doubled the cost of the song that doesn't work for me. I also have my doubts that anyone wants to pay for +10% chance for a reroll attempt. I hope the cost for this remains 6 mana because nothing has been added to justify the increased mana cost, which I shudder to think about dealing with every 60 seconds.

1025 - This song is why I became a bard. I like the increase in AS I hope that it will flare now even if I don't have 100 manipulation or telepathy lore ranks. But I wish that more had been added to how bard's can interact with their 1025 weapons. There's no defensive option, and very few verbs that let us interact with a 1025 weapon. I have heard lots of requests to let us use physical weapons for our 1025, I like the idea of holding the real thing to make a copy of it for 1025 to use. I know this is 5 levels below the ranger and sorc spells, but ours dies with us, so how about a defensive ability since it can't rescue or carry stuff for us into the afterlife. I would love to be able to set my 1025 to defense and have it function like those spheres the ithzir heralds use. Also I think bards should have some sort of combo/tag team attack cman that works if they have 1025 active. Hell give rangers with a companion access too I'm not selfish.

1030 - We are the most magical semi, we should retain the strongest magical attack, I don't care how you accomplish the damage review as long as we still have better attack spells than paladins and rangers who have access/ability to 3x skills and/or shield and armor skills. We still need a reliable attack spell, because there are not any other viable choices presented in the bard proposal.

1035 - So you lost me at this is no longer a group spell, everything that followed struck me as ill advised and the wrong direction. 35 mana and it only speeds up one group attack this was a main draw to group hunting with a bard, without providing some other group buff effect. All the spell songs seem to reduce a bards benefit to the group without imho making the bard a more viable solo hunter, or providing other balanced group benefits.

1040 - the success rate should be increased

1050 - Why are you proposing changes, that do not include a 50th level spell? We are the magical semi, we should at a bare minimum have a 50th level spell. And it should be profession defining. if 1030 is too strong to be at that level make it a 50th level attack spell, or give us cross realms travel, or the ability to make enhancives whatever it is 1050 needs to be released as part of any bard update.

The combat instruments are a neat idea, but poorly envisioned they should be using a bards UAC skill if you want to force MnM on us and the bard's play skill. It should also not be limited to two handed instruments as literally every bard I have ever advised owns a tambourine or cymbals. Making trading skills count for ranks so we have enough DS is going out of your way to do it wrong, why let us 3x in lore, or have play skill add phantom ranks for being mastered, or have it use UAC training and classify them as UAC weapons??

In closing, I appreciate the focus on bards and the development resources that have been committed. I do not think the mental or elemental implementation plans are acceptable as currently presented.

The mental proposal removes all our utility spells (402, 403, 404, 405, 407, 408) which nerfs picking bards, and forces them to spend lots of RT on every box before they start picking.
It also loses our elemental TD and the bonus to CS with no remediation that makes up the gap, mental spells are not really used by creatures, elemental spells are and our TD is already absurdly low relative to other professions.
It forces a spell list focused on UAC onto a profession that is not UAC focused.

The elemental proposal seems to be a list of stuff they won't change to punish bards for not agreeing to switch to the MnM spell iist.

Archales

I thought I saw that--if it changes to Mental--there would be a FixStat for Bards, not just a FixSkill.
And at cap, honestly, 6-8 of your stats are going to be 100s anyhow.

.

There is no warding check on renewal. It remains a check for "are you incapacitated / unable to sing?"
If yes, Songs drop (but NOT sonic gear any more!), and the check is every 60 seconds.

I do think that is too often, and made a suggestion towards that. Currently I see 5-6 renewals per hour, so only that many possible chances to be unable to renew. Going up to SIXTY possible times?
Even with my suggestion--Telepathy ranks/2 + DISbonus added duration--I would be at around 100s, but that is enough to take down to only 36 possible losses per hour.

"What went from a level 11 spell for newly training bards (level 13 for empath/clerics) to now a level 70 spell. A 1x spell bard will absolutely not get this spell until they hit level 70." -- Nenmoonia

I followed nearly everything in your post, but you completely lost me on this one. What is being gained at level 70? Nothing in the re-write has any kind of use as a sanctuary, so far as I have been able to make out.

.

GMs, is there a possibility of using "evoke" with Provoke/1235, to reduce the count of adventurers by number of adds?
"These are not the adventurers you are looking for."
Basically, it's safety--"no PCs here" == "no monsters to be genned, kthxby"--without the actual existence of a Sanctuary of any kind.

I take it back, Nenmoonia: I had forgotten about the to-be-added Harmony/1230, potentially acting to keep the Bard & company safe.

And I at least would be playing my Bard up to get Provoke/1235, so would be getting this "along the way". If I'm going physical, I would have MStrike and weapon feats available to hit several targets; if I'm going spellcasting I would have some mass-effect spells; if I'm in a group I would have other meat-shields to fend off swings.

(That said, I can foresee using Harmony precisely "never", in a similar way to how I pretty much never use Song of Peace/1011. Maybe when I trip over a corpse, but "not very often at all.")

But now I will have nothing to spend time on while I'm in the office!
(Yes, I know you're going to say that I could "do some of the work that I'm being paid to do," but it's like you people don't know me at all.)

.

Additional thoughts as I recently had occasion to do more in-depth reading & analysis:
* It was stated the the Depression/Requiem was going to remove the added RT from Lore; this was bonus, but the Song had a +1s built in.
- I already asked if that was going to remain.
+ Are the Lore bonuses to TD pushdown effect going to remain?

* Valor/1010 is stated on GSWiki as providing +10 DS (boosted with more Songs) and +15 eTD (with no boost).
- Re-done Valor is posited as "more DS boosted higher" from Songs. No mention whatsoever is made of the TD benefit.
+ Will the TD benefit remain? And if so, would it be re-purposed to mental instead?

.

As a result of email with another Bard, I just went and mathed everything out for me as I expect to be.
- With Ascension points moved, I can be at 58 Telepathy & 58 Manipulation, but given the effects of 6 ranks of Transference I am more likely to be at 55, 55, and 6.
- I currently self-cast all of the Minor Elemental, and (MA) other-cast Foresight/1204 and Mindward/1208.
- With the change, I would be self-casting all of the Minor Mental, and still able to (MA) other-cast Elemental Defense 1/2/3.

The net effect (going from 75 Minor/82 Songs, to 50 Minor/107 Songs) for me--as a pure caster/SorcerBard--boils down to:
-6 AS (difference between Targeting & revised Kai's... but I have precisely 0 weapon training),
+24 DS (big boost to Valor),
-41 CS (but we have hopes for "lower TDs" facing Mental, and Depression/Requiem is now auto-hit),
+16 Dodging ranks (boosts from Mirrors & Tonis),
<Premonition's adding to SMR>,
permanent -2s RT (to a floor of 2) instead of situational -3s (to a floor of 1) whenever I have spare mana.

And also "something going on with TD", see questions above.

"I think spells are broken into two there, as 300 for spells to level and 102 for spells past level." -- Leafiara, replying to Me

If that is the case, I would change the document to be "(300 + 102)", making clear that they go together.

.

And I think that is not the calculation that they should be doing--assuming "doubled in Songs, at cap"--since they went up to ONLY +25 stat bonus (Erithian & Elf could be at +10 over that) and added no Ascension to anything (not either of the two stats nor any of the three skills; guaranteed to be at least 5 points of Ascension available at cap).
"601" would be a more reasonable "baseline at cap", and even that assumes fully singled in Songs/NOTHING in the other list--whichever one it may turn out to be--or else "more than singled in Spell Research".

"Baseline" to me would be more like "what someone NEWLY HITTING 100th" would have, not "the theoretical cap it is possible to eke out through maximum training dedication." Baseline is what you set difficulties towards; theoretical max is what people who push the envelope can strive to achieve.

(Theoretical max looks like--Ascension + Enhancive--adding up to (20 + 20) each for Intuition & Influence, (0 + 50) for Songs, and (25 + 25) each for MC:Mental and MIU. So +230 more, to 933; 943 for an Erithian or Elf. But that would be a LOT of Ascension points....)

And it looks like the answer, from the 'History' tab of GSwiki page, is "on 21 Sep 2021 when Estild wrote that in."

>> The Bard review is delayed as we continue to review feedback and potential solutions. No other updates at this time.

Thank you for listening and adjusting based on the feedback!

-- Robert

>> A mongrel kobold points at you and yells, "Mine! Chasin!"

Heh; a scroll of Living Spell/208 will work just as well!

---

The aura grows brighter then disappears in a brilliant flash. You seem to glow with power and the knowledge of 1206.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You gesture at a sonic tower shield.
You levitate a sonic tower shield at a lesser orc!
AS: +223 vs DS: +37 with AvD: +43 + d100 roll: +89 = +318
... and hit for 123 points of damage!
Hard hit shatters weapon arm.
[You have earned enough recognition points to be eligible for promotion.]
A lesser orc screams one last time and dies.

After a few moments, you summon the tower shield back to your hand.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

---

This was Guarded stance with 202 ranks of Aimed Spells, and Targeting/425 turned OFF on the Test server (I had previously been testing CS with "now with no Minor Elemental CS boost from Targeting" simulated).

"You levitate a sonic tower shield at a lesser orc!" -- Me

OOOHH!

Any chance of having either an 'evoke' or a 'channel' version of Telekinesis... be a Shield Charge version? (Bards can already natively use Shield Bash if they train for it.)

.

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And also, now that flares are possible with Sonic Equipment:

Any chance of having a channel/evoke option for Shield/1009, to include sonic spikes if we choose, in addition?
(After all, if we are magically summoning an item of <this!> shape and of <that!> size... what's one more change in the <magical!> shape of it?)
Maybe gated behind a Lore requirement?

I forgot about using 'channel' for the hard-RT; good catch.

No, I was looking to add an additional capability to the spell itself: if using (I guess the only verb left is) 'evoke', on a (specific item ==) shield, it would act as a Shield Charge.

That one gets called out by me because Bards can already train in Shield Bash, but I still get eaten alive by the capped beasties using Charge on me. <mutter> I just want to return the favor.

.

The "use higher juice" with meditate simply looks like "and there is this verb that you can do with it." <shrug> Or at least, that is the way the GSWiki is written. Why would a Bard--knowing the list native, at that point--NOT be able to do so?

Reading back through the proposed changes, some more thoughts.

.

Are the follow-on rounds of Cacophony/1017 also CS-based? Or is ONLY the initial cast--landing the effect on the creature--a CS/TD comparison, and then just "damage happens" like Earthen Fury cycles? Switch to SMRv2? SMR? CML? Other?

.

Valor/1010 just looks goofy to me.

Step	Effect	Analysis
Wearing the spell.	Gives defense.	Okay, pretty straightforward.
Then you do a melee attack.	Flare % chance to get an effect triggered.	Okay, similar to 'flare', or 'Ensorcell benefit.'
Prep Cacophony/1017. (ONLY. Not "just any spell.")	Then you attack again.	Why? I have this spell...
Okay, my (physical) attack goes through.	<Ow.> Now! with actual RT, not just castRT.	Hopefully (??) the creature does NOT die. (??)
And then just before physical RT expires:	Cacophony gets laid onto the creature.	It is not explicitly stated anywhere: does this cost the 17 mana for casting?

As a weapon swinger/bothering with a weapon at all... WHY THE HELL WOULD I NOT JUST START WITH CACOPHONY/1017?!?!? It gives knockdown, which is, I don't know, the melee users' best friend?!?!

.

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But just "as written":
- Does the prepped Cacophony have a mana cost? Or is it "the effect is laid onto the creature" (and by the way, your "prepped spell" gets used up)?
- Is it just me, or does the implicit, "Gee, I hope the creature survives my melee attack so that my spell has an opportunity to benefit from this going off!" just make precisely 0% sense?
- And then what you get out of it is, "the creature then gets to survive for ten more (+10) seconds, while the damage-over-time pulses go off."

Again: why not START with Cacophony, and maybe watch the sucker die (from the cast + 1st cycle) before you get out of castRT? And then--only if it is still alive--you can swing a (slower than casting!) weapon at it, probably at a benefit (since you know: knocked down).

Or is the intended benefit of the combination, "You hit it with a weapon, so the CS/TD check does NOT have to take place."?

.

.

Basically, the whole thing looks more like a, "Let's build <these two things to work with each other>! Because!" rather than something that "might actually work in a combat scenario."

Yes, I'm for ritual magic/combined effects, but this is just silly.