I am ever so excited to be able to read this! Thank you for all your work!

HOWEVER ... you lost me on the first point :(

>Bards will no longer manually use the renewal system. Instead, any spell with a duration of “song” (e.g., Song of Valor (1010), Song of Mirrors (1019), etc.) has an indefinite duration similar to focus songs Mind Over Body (1213) and Focus Barrier (1216), but without the mutual exclusion component.

I manually renew very few songs, attack songs, I guess, mostly. So this confuses me.
THEN ...
I don't know what you mean by "focus songs Mind over Body ... Focus Barrier ... but without the mutual exclusion component."

Really clueless here! How is this indefinite duration different than the songs already mentioned and what in the world is mutual exclusion component?!

... I know, I know, it is a wonder I capped.

~L.

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>War Chant: ... Single target shareable.

What does that mean? I know what single target is. I do not know what or how it is shareable, though.

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"SSR scales favorably with level, and has a similar result as the old version while showing the roll for more clarity."

Would you be able to release more detail about the scaling mechanics of SSR? I do not believe there has been any player research into it, its very opaque, and in contrast we have the exact formula for the current 1005. Thx

Lux, a few answers based on my own understanding...

For getting rid of renewing part: Spellsongs will no longer have a point where 'you renew your songs' and it drains a bunch of mana to do so. They will instead last forever once started assuming you don't stop them, fail an incapacitated check, get dispelled, or die. The reason they mentioned the other spells is because those other spells already work in this fashion.

Every 60 seconds is where it will check if you are incapacitated. It will not cost mana every 60 seconds.

Single target sharable means that it's a buff spell you can cast on yourself or anyone else.

Tal, player of

For whatever it's worth I wanted to throw my own two cents in for all the changes that are proposed. Some of these are questions, some of these are comments. In general I REALLY like the proposed shift to MnM and what goes along with it. I'm also speaking from the perspective of someone who is closer to 2x cap so keep that in mind.

Renewal changes: I like these a lot except for the 60 second renewal timer and having the fix for it tied into telepathy lore. Can we get this tied to either mental mana control or total mental lore ranks? I don't like the idea that any creature in the game that can stun you can basically mass dispel you if you don't pick one particular lore.

Combat instruments: Looks neat. Are we going to be able to sing them with 1012 or will we have to invest in physical gear? Any chance to mute the more fanciful messaging on the parrying? The concept is interesting, but it may not be to everyones taste.

Sonic armament updates: Will we be able have different subtypes with different properties as we see fit? Will sonics bows be an option? How will sonics get 'standard flares' in conjunction with the fact they come with flares?

1230: How does this work with magic proof creatures?

1004: Double effect for ascension?

1005: Is this now largely static and unable to be improved by training (outside of leveling) with the change?

1008: Why is a physical effect being improved by telepathy?

1010: Will this save the prep if the target dies?

1011: There is a lot going on here. I like it, but it's a lot. Here's hoping for being able to sing a combat instrument.

1013: Will we just be able to incant 1013 again for the renewal replacement? The lore benefit seems weird to me but there's a chance it'll be useful for lower levels.

1014: Why skip 3% at 75 ranks?

1015: I appreciate the fact it's going to become automatically successful considering what it does.

1016: I will never have a use for this. Personal preference would be for it to turn into a stronger single target debuff (auto offensive + PSM3 status applications?) or a multi target moderate damage spell.

1017: Another case of why is a physical effect being strengthened by a lore that focuses on the mind?

1025: Is changing the damage type at 100 ranks more than flavor?

1030: Please find another way to add 20 skill other than playing an instrument unless we don't have to hold the item in question. I've spent a number of years playing in real life and the concept of holding a 50 pound suit of armor and playing flight of the bumblebee at the same time is silly. Trading/10? MnM/2? My suspension of disbelief is failing here!

Lores in general: I don't personally feel the lore setup is terribly balanced.

Melee bards with telepathy get better AS, DS and renewal protection. Casting bards get better CS, DS, renewal protection, and better single target damage spells. They also get dirge though I personally don't value that very highly.

Melee bards with manipulation get better sonic flares and... an AoE CS spell they hope they can land? Casting bards get slightly lower hinderance, and the best AoE combo we have (though too expensive to use liberally pre-cap). Also the 1003 benefit, but like dirge it isn't reliable.

I can make an argument for 100 tele 0 manipulation no matter what hunting style you use. I'm having trouble making a similar one for 100 manipulation unless it's a service / locker alt and I don't care for that being its best use.

I'm also a little sad we won't end up with an SMR spell of some sort, but I suppose life would be a little more bleak if we couldn't look enviously at our ranger friends over something or another.

Taluric.

Overall as the player of a level 67 pure bard I like the doc a lot and would be excited for the move to MnM as this is written.

1016 needs some work though. I don't see this getting used at all beyond a couple novelty attempts. People aren't going to want to pull out a scroll mid-combat. It's clunky, cumbersome, and defensively compromising. On top of that, arcane symbols isn't cheap for a Bard. I know staff push back on this thought process but players a whole just do not want to deal with consumables and trying to shove that square peg in the round hole by dedicating a spell slot to it seems like a miss. I'd suggest make 1016 more like Spell Store used to be. Let a Bard load X charges of spellsongs in their mind, and draw on them when needed in combat.

Will the runestaff/instrument converter respect Master instrument status? Will Master instrument status have any impact at all on combat (even impact as minor as different flavor messaging)?

9x capped bard here.

1. 1035 changes really kill the core identity of this class for me. I understand the design intent is to push the bards in a more pure direction, but getting your melee damage cut by 50% is a hard pill to swallow. I'd certainly like to see an option of a one time prof fix into a warrior for the more melee oriented bards who are not about this new vision for the class.

2. Not following the racial CS bonuses, doesn't this make some races (i.e. dark elves) an uber race, since they gain CS but don't give up their innate racial bonuses in other areas?

3. Various QOL changes are a welcome improvement and get a thumbs up.

4. Am open to MnM.

5. Can probably live with 1030 changes, but not with 1035.

Right off the bat, I want to give an essay response to the survey questions. (Okay, really "just the second one.")
"Yes, Bards should [no longer be considered a Hybrid and] become The Mental Semi... BUT the Rangers should become The Elemental Semi [since they're out in the weather, dealing with the elements] while Paladins remain The Spirit Semi."

Which of course means having to change Rangers' Lore effects. Again. (Which should really have been done correctly in the first place.)

.

Next...
1) Turn these on in the Test server as soon as possible, so that people can go over there and test.
2) If Bards are a Mental semi, can they get half the level benefit that Monks do on Iron Skin/1202? (+1 effective AsG at 15th, and +2 [net] effective AsG at 50th?) So the 'Mental square' gets the full 5 bonus possible, the Semi gets half, and the 'pure caster Mental' (Savants) gets no free AsG.
3) Given the number of attack spells on the Minor Mental list, getting more of them on the Bard list becomes superfluous.
4) Do the "combat instruments" count as a weapon for Brace/1214? (Or maybe having them get a 50/50 chance--"more combat" or "more instrument"--checked first, to see if it happens?)
5) Does Provoke/1235 work in Reim, to generate +beasties on the creation pulse?
6) Is a "combat instrument" valid to summon with Dancing Weapon/1025?

.

Banshee's Wail/1008, and Dancing Weapon/1025.

Heh. Color me amused.

(Took me long enough to browbeat you folks. :)

That is all.

.

Do I understand the "ML:Manipulation + Combat Instrument" discussion for Disruption to be fundamentally the same as it works now, but with a lower value of "30" rather than "60"? So if you train instrument, you can save on Lore points; if you train Lore, you can save on instrument time; if you train both to max of 30... you still get ONLY the max of 30?

.

.

Songs' duration == Focus [effect, but without the exclusivity restriction], I like. As a Sunfist person, I particularly like getting access to "and now with a lower stamina cost!" from Mind Over Body/1213.

Renewal-with-chance-to-lose-gear going from "five times per hour" to "every flippin' minute" I am not really that big a fan of. Since you are sinking a lot of eggs into the ML:Telepathy basket, how about "+1s/rank before the check"? I would even be willing to reduce the percentage chance from 1%/rank to 1%/2 ranks, if the duration were longer.
(Current proposal has "ranks + DIS bonus" for percentage to hold it together, but "every 60s". 40 ranks + 10 stat bonus == 50% chance, every minute. My suggestion would be [40/2 == 20 + 10 stat bonus ==] 30% chance of holding it together, but only happen every 100s. 60 opportunities to happen per hour, versus 36 opportunities to happen per hour.)

However, NOT losing Weapon/Armor/Shield from song renewal failure is a big plus.

I still disagree with "+1/2 spell ranks" benefit--even with essentially "indefinite duration"--compared to Rangers' getting Mobility/618 at +1/rank, othercast, cumulative duration. I didn't care for the reduction (in the notionally "heavy magic" semi profession) when Warden & Solli were doing it, and I still don't like it now.

The ability to be more of a "casting Bard" earlier on--from using the Attack spells on the Minor Mental list, and changes to some of the lower Bard spells--looks promising. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about Disruption (see point #1 above, "allow testing ASAP"). Part of me says, "make it a 10th level spell, single-target only, and the open up the higher abilities at higher spell/higher Lore requirements." (You already have a joint spell/Lore requirement, new on Tonis.) Add more damage unlocked at 15, mass unlocked at 20, non-player-friendly unlocked at 30, whatever.

.

"Glamour's Influence bonus from lore will now enhance Bard CS/TD." (last sentence of point 1. in the "Mechanical Gains from Minor Mental")

Seriously? You're seriously going to raise this as a positive--+10, only at cap, and only with fully singled Lore--compared to losing FIFTY possible from Targeting (which would be increasing from multi-training Spell Research every level)? Seriously?

Again: open up testing ASAP so we can see the comparative AS/CS effects.

.

"SSR scales favorably with level" (second sentence of Lullabye/1005) How does it scale against over-level? Lullabye was extremely effective for people with high CHArisma (now INFluence), but there are a ton of things that break down pretty much "completely" when you're facing >5 levels over you. This has me concerned.

---

Spell-by-spell response (after just one reading; deeper analysis may be forthcoming)

War Chant/1001: why screw with this being 2 minutes for bonus to a single attack? This is Spell Store/502 rewritten with a bonus. That was a sucky spell, this will be, also. Allow it to use Core Tap/950 mechanics to cast this PLUS the other spell (or melee attack) right away as a combo, give a net <effect>+1 rt, and call it done.
+ I also would not mind at all the possibility of seeing this as just a flat "Song" duration spell when self-cast on the bard, with a -1 Max Mana and +1 mana cost for every <effect> (be it casting a spell or swinging the weapon).

Resonance/1002: this looks like it works ONLY to reduce the box trap/lock by some amount, it cannot actually destroy/open the box at all (such as through multiple casts), correct?
+ Any chance of allowing the Bard to target a specific item/hand? Possibly at "some #" Lore/Mana Control ranks?
+ Any chance of allowing the Bard to affect the armor of the target?

Dissonance/1003: You're using a CS spell to cause a DS benefit. Uh-huh. How about the equivalent 60% (== -9) TD reduction, also, to actually help, you know... the guy casting?

Purification/1004: tough to argue with this being easier.

Lullabye/1005: primarily already addressed, above. Use against higher level creatures was not just possible but reliable with good, charming, stats. Will it remain so?

Certainty/1006: Uh-huh. You're putting a (Lore-based) CS boost for the OTHER list, in this one? Uh-huh. (Although to be fair, I've already talked about Glamour giving a [Lore-based] CS boost via INFluence in that list, to affect this one.) Really? Howsabout putting "Bard CS boost" in the BARD LIST, and "Minor Mental CS boost" in the MINOR MENTAL LIST.
One final comment: Uh-huh. (Yeah, not really impressed with the thought process on this one...)
I lied, one more after that: Really not that impressed with things like "a whole +12 CS bonus from this spell over here [at 96 ranks of Lore]" and "a whole +10 CS bonus from that spell over there [at 100 ranks of Lore]" when compared to PLUS FIFTY FROM TARGETING, which was accessible at a lower value SEVENTY FRICKING LEVELS EARLIER and then scaling up over time. Note that the starting value for that spell is higher than the NET BONUS FROM BOTH OF THESE "can eventually get to, someday."

Kai's1007: AS, great. CS adder, at 60% value, same route as many/most things are going nowadays? If so, much of that rant a moment ago can be neutralized.
- To be clear, "any AS boost beyond 20" that is provided by spell ranks, correct? (Since the Lore paragraph specifically says that it can affect the group.)

Banshee's Wail/1008: This just looks good. At 2 mana below what single-target Disrupt/1030 was, it was... less than impressive. Two damage types--both of which have been eating me alive from 102 & 103 endrolls, from Spirit spells--on a single cast, and keep the disorienting effect? Sure, I'll take it.

Shield/1009: only discussion is on Lore, which == "turn it on in Test ASAP" as before.

Valor/1010: Will an attack from a Dancing Weapon/1025 be able to trigger Valor also, or only something from the Bard? Does it have to be a melee attack, or can a Shield maneuver trigger it also? Will "any swing" of an MStrike that triggers it permit the Bard to load something up (after his RT finally runs out)?
- Honestly, if you're going to do War Chant as a "load up a spell" type of thing, I would rather see that play into the Crescendo effect similar to how Paladins infuse something into their weapon. That way the Bard gains the benefit "whenever it triggers", rather than, "OH, I got one... and since it happened on swing '2 of 5' in an MStrike, I lose the benefit."

Aria/1011: DS effect, okay. IMMEDIATE infliction of RT? Thank you for hearing my issue. Any chance of making this have a floor of FOUR seconds, so that the caster can actually benefit from it, guaranteed? (3s eaten up by castRT, and then bang off something else while the targets are still suffering.)
- Are the durations of the RT known from the endroll ("every 10 points of failure") or by messaging (like the old Rage levels)?

Weapon/1012: Lore discussion... "Test" as above.

Unravel/1013: I think I like this, given that prep/cast has the ability to trigger runestaff flares and 'renew' does not. (Though 'incant that == renew', like Disruption/1030 currently uses, does have the ability to trigger runestaff flares. It seems to be only the actual 'renew' verb that does not have the capability.)
- Clarify how the re-application works. Is it like the new "over time"/2s pulses [Earthen Fury, Major Bleed], just happening +150% more slowly? "You get free cast."?
- Can the re-application work on a PREPPED spell, similar to how a Dispel works? [Reim Empress is under my Unravel, preps a spell, 5s re-application goes off, hits the prepped spell?]

Armor/1014: +Flares. Mmmm, flares for Sonic Equipment. Mmmm. </Homer>
- Are the effects of Sonic Armor:Lore and Armor Specialization:Fluidity additive or multiplicative, and in what order? (13% hindrance in AsG16 hauberk, sonic at cap with max lore == 9%. Fluidity at cap giving 50% off, does it reduce by 6 [against base hauberk, non-Lore sonic armor] or reduce by 4?)
Either way, 3%-5% hindrance in sonic hauberk is looking pretty close to "choice enough for me to consider forgoing Fusion hauberk" that I was getting started on at this last Duskruin.

Requiem/1015: Editorially, I would move the "Again" renewal comment down to the LAST sentence, so that the "this also" is conceptually adjacent to the "you get a bonus with Banshee's Wail".
+ Since RT is changed to "immediate" for Aria/1011, I can certainly live with this.
- No longer getting both effects paying off (I make you easier to hit, AND slow you down in the future) from a single castRT, but "automatically making you easier to hit with the additional RT you're about to face" will likely make up for a lot.

Composers/1016: Uh-huh. Scrolls are crap. The Sigil Staff is approximately the ONLY redeeming quality that scrolls have, since you can use it without reducing your defensive values.
* Now, if the scroll were to be intangible, floating around in mid-air like Dancing Weapon/1025 does... maybe.
- Fundamentally, this is a "use mana in safety to prepare for mana use while in danger." Having to put away weapon/shield to DO that, is nonsense.
- See also, scrolls are crap.

Cacophony/1017: More CS! Cool! I cannot think of a single time--even as sword & board--that I ever cast Noise, so "plus Earthen Fury, yaaaay" FTW.

Power/1018: No more explod-y heads? Yaaaay! Focus to compete with Mind Over Body, booooo!
- Given that Bards may no longer be able to get Mana Focus/418, it means that getting "The Moistening" effects of +10 mana/pulse from that are no longer available, so... net to a wash. Re-allocate the Elemental Lore ranks. <shrug>

Mirrors/1019: See my previous rant(s) about "+1 per 2 ranks" compared to Rangers' "+1 per rank, othercast, cumulative." Hasn't changed.

Travel/1020: no more having to worry about stinky-water/poison? Yaaaay.

Dancing Weapon/1025: Will the AS of the (note: magically animated, dancing in mid-air) weapon change if the casting Bard happens to be laying on the floor, as it does now? (See my previous rant[s], about how "this is stupid.")
* I think I saw someone else ask, but "50 ranks each of ML:Manipulation & Telepathy plus a big stack of Enhancives plus Ascension" can easily (??!?!?) lead to 100 ranks of each. At that point is it an Astral Psychic Dancing Weapon, with both types of damage & standard-flare rate chance for both types of add-on (Vertigo & Confuse)?

Luck/1030: Only thing that I really care about is runestaff (and/or weapon) to include "combat instruments" and the possibility of REMOVING THE 1% FUMBLE CHANCE. I'm even willing to trade that at 2:1 on the first infusion of Luck.

Tonis/1035: No more group, awwww. Otherwise... "Test" as above.

Rally/1040: Handy when I need it. Shame it cannot do anything about ROUNDTIME that you're suffering through....

Disruption/1050: Eh. Not sure. See also, "Test" as above.

---

Other sections at the bottom:

If Bards do wind up staying Elemental, I feel that 0p/18m is too high for Sorcerer Lore, given that they are in that Elemental realm.

Otherwise... "Test" as above.

In addition to "put it on Test", there needs to be the ability to "play it on Test as either mode."
- As the revised "mental" version.
- As the (somewhat changed) "remaining as elemental" version.

Players can continue to compare versus their current stats just by logging into their game.

TD seems to be a major concern... Could we see some comparative examples of Bard TD now vs the Mental proposal?

- Andreas

Sonic Gear (Weapon, Shield, Armor) Suggestion

Re-work Sonic Gear Spells to create a copy of the equipment that can only be used by the bard. This would lock the item to prevent abuse like having another player use it or having a bard use it via TWC, etc.

Anything in the Cat B or ability slot would not function/be over-written. Can't have sonic air flares and something else.

This would acknowledge the amount of time and money players have spent on non sonic gear items since the spells were not very good compared to actual weapon offerings and allow players to begin using sonic gear. I'm not sure on the coding side but if it could be done this method would address a lot of the current issues with the bard proposal and sonic gear I think.

As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!"

I like the mirror image/mirage gear idea that copy pastes the stats of your existing gear as a sonic

>Assuming that Bards are still supposed to be the "heavy magic" Semi, and Paladins--arguably "the most physical" semi--already can double in their Lore...

1200s are balanced for 1x lore because they were for squares. 100s were for pures so balancing 1600s for 2x lore was a fairly simple fix.

Same reason the CS boost for 1200s has to come from the 1000s. Using a circle that was designed as a squares profession circle as a minor circle for a semi is going to result in all sorts of design oddities to keep those two uses simultaneously viable.

FYI they updated the proposal doc today:

Changelog
09/21/2021
Sonic Disruption moved back to 1030. AoE only. Damage will be tuned to be more similar to 635. 30 mana per cast.
Banshee’s Wail (1008) is now a SMR attack.
Moved Traveller’s Ballad (1020) to 1016.
Moved Luck’s Reverberation (1030) to 1020.
Properties and services on sonic armaments are shared between all types (falchion > longsword, etc).
Update survey question #2.
Added Wings of Tonis group buff to Song of Tonis (1035).
Fixed Rooted DS loss listed on Arresting Aria (1011)
Sonic Bows are eligible for Sonic Weapon (1012).
Elemental proposal updated:
- Sonic Armaments updated to clarify they still get the upgrade service improvements as listed in this proposal.
- Removed stat changes for staying MnE.

"Let sonic spells have a second mode that simply adds sonic benefits to conventional equipment." -- AllSlick25

OMGFTW!! Yes, please, I'll take one of these. Sonic benefits layered onto a Sigil Staff? Drop the mic.

.

.

Separately: I missed the part about Sonic Armor/1014 losing the vulnerability to impact. This is a significant upgrade; thanks!

On the other hand: offensive flares on armor. So what? Bards have precisely NO offensive maneuvers that they can do that use armor: no Tackle, no Bearhug. If their armor has leg coverage they may be able to benefit from Sweep, Groinkick, probably Vaulting Kick, and maybe few others, but nothing terribly dramatic.

So agreeing again with AllSlick25: CMan options for Bards.

Bard Proposal Question: I see no mention made of the sonic gear naturally getting enchanted with one's songspell ranks.

Did this leave us?

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>>Activate IRONSKIN via meditation in the same way as resistance is activated. Thematically it fits better and bards shouldn't be stealing a monk style armor when they already have sonics.

My empath protests!

Doug

>My empath protests!

Stop whining and get sonics instead.

Oh, you can't.

Thats sort of the point.

Will the reduction in base spell hindrances, also come with a review of armor spell hindrance training requirements for Bard spells?

Lots of things to like here. No more renewel, sonic bow and upgrades to sonic weapons