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| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
ALLENM20
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/01/2021 12:41 PM CDT
I am looking forward to the potential and new playstyle as well Slacker.
KARDIOS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/01/2021 02:20 PM CDT
So far as I can tell, the new Sorcerer proposals do not add any new DoT spells. They just make the existing DoT spells better. Did I miss something?
I suppose the new 707, 725 and 750 could be considered to be DoT spells.
I suppose the new 707, 725 and 750 could be considered to be DoT spells.
TCLERIC
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/02/2021 01:07 PM CDT
<Slacker's Post>
So, how much mana is this going to cost vs the normal cost of killing a creature? I know that this is being looked into (and you called it out too). But it's one thing to have a different path that's a little slower. It's another to have one that's a little slower and mana inefficient. Every tick that occurs that doesn't do damage to a creature because it's dead is inefficiency with the cost of the spell. Often times, this is addressed by changing out spells during a particular point in our attacking cycle. i.e. Doesn't die with 719? Swap to 705, that way you can reduce your total mana investiture if you think 705 will kill it with fewer than 4 total additional casts. DOTs don't really allow you to do that unless you want to elongate your time from "a little longer" to "a lot longer" so that you can determine HP and which DOT combo will tick to that point over 10 seconds empowered with 706.
ALLENM20
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/02/2021 06:21 PM CDT
706 needs a % chance to refresh the durations on dots upon killing the target as well as the chance to spread the dots.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
SLACKER1
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/03/2021 08:09 AM CDT
>So, how much mana is this going to cost vs the normal cost of killing a creature?
Well part of this depends on if 701 is improved to usable levels. The current bleed vs. warding margin is pathetic and completely a waste of cast time.
If 701 does decent damage you can use it instead of 716 - but if 716 gets a charge-based SPREAD system for lower mana cost, it might not even be worth it except at lower levels where mana efficiency is key.
So the comparisons right now are:
711 x 3 = 33 mana
719 x 1 = 19 mana
719 x 2 = 38 mana (first shot doesn't always kill)
716 x 1 = 16 mana (if you get a crit kill on the initial 716 cast)
716 + 710 + 718 + 706 = 50 mana - this seems too expensive for a standard rotation though the dmg/mana is perfectly fine for a boss/ancient/grizzled critter.
706 x 1 = 6 mana (for any critter after the first) - this is pretty OP from a mana standpoint but so is most good AOE
Also regarding Allen's comment, I'd like to see 706 transfer the DoTs with refreshed duration. I don't see where this would be too OP as the chain immediately ends when the room is empty. If you compare the AOE potential here to 950 it's not even close, so it seems fine.
Well part of this depends on if 701 is improved to usable levels. The current bleed vs. warding margin is pathetic and completely a waste of cast time.
If 701 does decent damage you can use it instead of 716 - but if 716 gets a charge-based SPREAD system for lower mana cost, it might not even be worth it except at lower levels where mana efficiency is key.
So the comparisons right now are:
711 x 3 = 33 mana
719 x 1 = 19 mana
719 x 2 = 38 mana (first shot doesn't always kill)
716 x 1 = 16 mana (if you get a crit kill on the initial 716 cast)
716 + 710 + 718 + 706 = 50 mana - this seems too expensive for a standard rotation though the dmg/mana is perfectly fine for a boss/ancient/grizzled critter.
706 x 1 = 6 mana (for any critter after the first) - this is pretty OP from a mana standpoint but so is most good AOE
Also regarding Allen's comment, I'd like to see 706 transfer the DoTs with refreshed duration. I don't see where this would be too OP as the chain immediately ends when the room is empty. If you compare the AOE potential here to 950 it's not even close, so it seems fine.
WOMBATSANDERS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/04/2021 10:20 AM CDT
Things I REALLY like (in no particular order):
718 (particularly combo with Hex and lore)
720 leaving loot
706!
707/750 (especially being able to choose)
725
Banking sacrifices (and new uses)
Things I don't understand (or would like clarification):
I don't quite get tying 720 success to demonology. Taking Spell Aiming while leveling also usually means giving up lores, so I don't quite understand what the expected training plan for this spell is. Seems prohibitively expensive while leveling.
Does the retribution effect of 716 count as a cast for 730? What about open 710? The 706 transferred DoTs?
Are the necromancy path summons "undead" undead? Either answer makes something weird. Animated real undead don't need a bless, but they're eeeevil. If they DO need a bless, necromancy is at a disadvantage (compared to demonologists) hunting undead. Feels weird.
Things I don't like so much:
I'd like to see the lores feel more optional, and see more done with the spiritual and elemental lores, even if it's just weird side benefits. Right now it feels like there's a VERY hard distinction between necromancy/demonology, and I'd like to see a compelling reason to build a character that's not 0/202.
Most of the curses still seem situational at best and kind of useless at worst, largely because they require warding (and they can't stack with Hex). Maybe a TD pushdown equivalent to hex? Itchy curse would be nice for warsorcs and bolters if they could hit with it. It's kind of overkill for groups already.
It looks like 713 is losing the demon flare, with nothing to replace it. That's kind of a big hit to bolting, which is already not particularly competitive.
Things I WOULD like:
Substituting Spirit for Shadow Essence if we're out - also addresses concerns about managing additional resources.
Improvements for Spell Aiming sorcerers, particularly bolt 705. Bolt Disintegrate is not compelling. 720 being usable helps a lot to make it a more appealing path, but it still feels like Web is the big draw for bolting.
More damage type options for 718. By Valence? Outside lores? ATTUNE? CONVERT? Random?
The ability to "aim" runestones for 714. I like the quick unlock option, but if I could WAVE RUNE AT SCROLL 313 or TURN RUNE until it shows the right spell, it would really remove a ton of the hassle.
Maybe some combined Necro/Demonology 707/725/750 options? Or cross-lore boosts in some way?
718 (particularly combo with Hex and lore)
720 leaving loot
706!
707/750 (especially being able to choose)
725
Banking sacrifices (and new uses)
Things I don't understand (or would like clarification):
I don't quite get tying 720 success to demonology. Taking Spell Aiming while leveling also usually means giving up lores, so I don't quite understand what the expected training plan for this spell is. Seems prohibitively expensive while leveling.
Does the retribution effect of 716 count as a cast for 730? What about open 710? The 706 transferred DoTs?
Are the necromancy path summons "undead" undead? Either answer makes something weird. Animated real undead don't need a bless, but they're eeeevil. If they DO need a bless, necromancy is at a disadvantage (compared to demonologists) hunting undead. Feels weird.
Things I don't like so much:
I'd like to see the lores feel more optional, and see more done with the spiritual and elemental lores, even if it's just weird side benefits. Right now it feels like there's a VERY hard distinction between necromancy/demonology, and I'd like to see a compelling reason to build a character that's not 0/202.
Most of the curses still seem situational at best and kind of useless at worst, largely because they require warding (and they can't stack with Hex). Maybe a TD pushdown equivalent to hex? Itchy curse would be nice for warsorcs and bolters if they could hit with it. It's kind of overkill for groups already.
It looks like 713 is losing the demon flare, with nothing to replace it. That's kind of a big hit to bolting, which is already not particularly competitive.
Things I WOULD like:
Substituting Spirit for Shadow Essence if we're out - also addresses concerns about managing additional resources.
Improvements for Spell Aiming sorcerers, particularly bolt 705. Bolt Disintegrate is not compelling. 720 being usable helps a lot to make it a more appealing path, but it still feels like Web is the big draw for bolting.
More damage type options for 718. By Valence? Outside lores? ATTUNE? CONVERT? Random?
The ability to "aim" runestones for 714. I like the quick unlock option, but if I could WAVE RUNE AT SCROLL 313 or TURN RUNE until it shows the right spell, it would really remove a ton of the hassle.
Maybe some combined Necro/Demonology 707/725/750 options? Or cross-lore boosts in some way?
TCLERIC
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/05/2021 09:05 PM CDT
One thing that could be an interesting play is to have the spiritual/elemental lores work in combination levels with sorcerer lores.
i.e. 50 earth lore + 50 demon lore makes X demon (Rolfard - this is for you) from the rocky valence do something additional.
ATALYCUS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/06/2021 02:49 PM CDT
711 takes 4 to 6 or 7 shots now to kill some things so that's more mana. stupid change
LORD-STIGS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/09/2021 12:50 PM CDT
Re: shadow essence / sacrifice
--Can a spirit gain be added to sacrifice like the mana option? Seems like a good place to have a synergy for traditional CoL sorcerers. If this isn't a place to drain someone's spirit for yourself, then what is? If there are concerns about it being used too widely, put a cooldown on it, but there should be a way to directly produce spirit outside of rare ensorcell flares (for those who use ensorcelled weapons).
--Suggest a demonology buff to demons on Channel to align with animate refresh.
Re: 709
--suggest allow for either necromancy or demonology flavor choice based on lore training.
Re: 710
--Request that once 710 is cast on a creature or room, it remains up and drains mana from either the sorcerer or demon as necessary, without having to recast it. In situations where the screen scroll is going to be moving fast, it will not be possible to see when the tempest has stopped; auto-renew by draining mana alleviates this.
Re: 714
--Consider allowing the full charge of a spell on a scroll over the 20 charge limit so a scroll can be worked on and 'finished' in one session; maybe as part of the more complex existing option, i.e., a reward for complexity.
Re: 716
--suggest allow for either necromancy or demonology flavor choice based on lore training.
Re: 730
--Instead of recasting the spells from last five minutes, have this spell cast all the unique DoTs immediately on the target for 30 mana. In the current situation we would have to remind ourselves to be casting all the various DoTs for some uncertain future where we might want 730 to be effective. Suggest instead: Prep 730, cast target (all unique DoTs (701,710,+715 is also a DoT,716,718) become active on the target.
Re: 740
--suggest synergy with spiritual lore summoning to use 740 as a 225 cross-realm. 116 a target, see the runes, go there with 740.
Re: 750
--Please pull this reskinned treekin druid/elemental/fetish monster spell, this is not an appealing route. Pets are being covered in the other spells, and this feels like something that was cobbled together to just 'finish' the circle.
--Can a spirit gain be added to sacrifice like the mana option? Seems like a good place to have a synergy for traditional CoL sorcerers. If this isn't a place to drain someone's spirit for yourself, then what is? If there are concerns about it being used too widely, put a cooldown on it, but there should be a way to directly produce spirit outside of rare ensorcell flares (for those who use ensorcelled weapons).
--Suggest a demonology buff to demons on Channel to align with animate refresh.
Re: 709
--suggest allow for either necromancy or demonology flavor choice based on lore training.
Re: 710
--Request that once 710 is cast on a creature or room, it remains up and drains mana from either the sorcerer or demon as necessary, without having to recast it. In situations where the screen scroll is going to be moving fast, it will not be possible to see when the tempest has stopped; auto-renew by draining mana alleviates this.
Re: 714
--Consider allowing the full charge of a spell on a scroll over the 20 charge limit so a scroll can be worked on and 'finished' in one session; maybe as part of the more complex existing option, i.e., a reward for complexity.
Re: 716
--suggest allow for either necromancy or demonology flavor choice based on lore training.
Re: 730
--Instead of recasting the spells from last five minutes, have this spell cast all the unique DoTs immediately on the target for 30 mana. In the current situation we would have to remind ourselves to be casting all the various DoTs for some uncertain future where we might want 730 to be effective. Suggest instead: Prep 730, cast target (all unique DoTs (701,710,+715 is also a DoT,716,718) become active on the target.
Re: 740
--suggest synergy with spiritual lore summoning to use 740 as a 225 cross-realm. 116 a target, see the runes, go there with 740.
Re: 750
--Please pull this reskinned treekin druid/elemental/fetish monster spell, this is not an appealing route. Pets are being covered in the other spells, and this feels like something that was cobbled together to just 'finish' the circle.
ROLFARD
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/09/2021 06:45 PM CDT
Thinking more and more about this, combining animate and summoning into one spell is a net loss.
Currently I have my combat animate doing all my combat stuff.
My lesser demon also does a lot, things I noticed today;
totes silvers for me, as much as 35 pounds worth
can hold numerous items of any weight like a quartz orb or silver slab from boxes too heavy to phase that I call lighting on midhunt
Adds an additional flare, which can be fatal, to balefire with a types based on which demon I summon
Can hold mana, a small amount sure but enough for two more dark catalyst casts
Bites thieves, which may be important with potential updates to pp enticing more people to train pp
While I understand the important of reducing pets, I think a lot of people don't consider these as valuable as they are.
With one of the highest controllable variables for SMR being encumbrance, we are losing the ability to have a demon support us along with our animate deal damage. Worse still, the proposed replacement for 730 could potentially be replaced with a sorcerer VERB, like sacrifice instead of holding a spell slot.
Currently I have my combat animate doing all my combat stuff.
My lesser demon also does a lot, things I noticed today;
totes silvers for me, as much as 35 pounds worth
can hold numerous items of any weight like a quartz orb or silver slab from boxes too heavy to phase that I call lighting on midhunt
Adds an additional flare, which can be fatal, to balefire with a types based on which demon I summon
Can hold mana, a small amount sure but enough for two more dark catalyst casts
Bites thieves, which may be important with potential updates to pp enticing more people to train pp
While I understand the important of reducing pets, I think a lot of people don't consider these as valuable as they are.
With one of the highest controllable variables for SMR being encumbrance, we are losing the ability to have a demon support us along with our animate deal damage. Worse still, the proposed replacement for 730 could potentially be replaced with a sorcerer VERB, like sacrifice instead of holding a spell slot.
SDEMASK
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/11/2021 09:58 AM CDT
I agree that having a necro OR demon flavor to our spells (that are enhanced by lores) would be ideal. We don't use enough of them as it is. Having too many spells that are only effective with one or the other lore training is limiting.
I also wish that our lore and CS mechanics followed the MC mechanics with Ensorcell where the higher of the two counts more but the lower of the two still lends some. I feel as hyrbids we get the short end of the stick with both training points and formulas.
>>--Can a spirit gain be added to sacrifice like the mana option?
Would be nice! Use a soul fragment on oneself.
>>710
Yes, please give us an option for continuous tempests. Also, allow us to stop tempest instead of having to dispell it.
>>714
Yes nothing was mentioned about 25th level spells or charging >20. Anything? The quick charge is severely lacking/limiting unless you also increase scroll drops or let us use it on quartz orbs/small statues.
>>730
Careful with 715 tho since some types curse items. I'm trying to avoid us having to be even more group-unfriendly.
I also wish that our lore and CS mechanics followed the MC mechanics with Ensorcell where the higher of the two counts more but the lower of the two still lends some. I feel as hyrbids we get the short end of the stick with both training points and formulas.
>>--Can a spirit gain be added to sacrifice like the mana option?
Would be nice! Use a soul fragment on oneself.
>>710
Yes, please give us an option for continuous tempests. Also, allow us to stop tempest instead of having to dispell it.
>>714
Yes nothing was mentioned about 25th level spells or charging >20. Anything? The quick charge is severely lacking/limiting unless you also increase scroll drops or let us use it on quartz orbs/small statues.
>>730
Careful with 715 tho since some types curse items. I'm trying to avoid us having to be even more group-unfriendly.
LORD-STIGS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/16/2021 11:40 PM CDT
If one of the goals of the review is to make a more interactive, dynamic, and diverse playstyle for sorcerers, can the 715/curse of the star buff apply to generic melee AS/UAF in addition to bolt AS? The other pure professions have avenues through their spell package for playing a more physical build which is currently unavailable for most sorcerers. Having 715 apply to melee would give sorcerers a feasible option and expand the diversity of the profession overall, especially in ascension areas which will be limited by spell sever mechanics.
Thank you!
Thank you!
CAELRIC
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/17/2021 11:58 AM CDT
>>can the 715/curse of the star buff apply to generic melee AS/UAF in addition to bolt AS?
Hear, hear!
Hear, hear!
GHOSTPANTS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/20/2021 05:23 AM CDT
The changes state that 701 will inflict major bleed on the target. As listed in PSM 3 it says that "Damage dealt is based on the raw HP damage inflicted."
will this spell then have an initial damage component as well?
if not what will the damage be based around? warding margin only? Are any lores applicable to the damage as well or just the shield aspect of it?
KRAKII
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/20/2021 08:03 AM CDT
"major bleed ... "Damage dealt is based on the raw HP damage inflicted."" -- GhostPants, quoting
To me, that reads as, "this spell is now an Ambushing Dagger" in its effect. (Those which inflict Poison == base damage, when swung from hiding. If you hit for 4hp, it does a 4/round poison dissipating at 1.)
.
Given that poison (and disease) have long been extremely lackluster, and Major Bleed is looking like that is supposed to beef this up... I have hopes that we might see:
- poison elemental flares (the green noxious cloud swirling around the weapon) see the same sort of thing (fire at 2s intervals)
and also
- those selfsame Ambushing Daggers get the same treatment (fire their damage at 2s intervals).
GMs?
To me, that reads as, "this spell is now an Ambushing Dagger" in its effect. (Those which inflict Poison == base damage, when swung from hiding. If you hit for 4hp, it does a 4/round poison dissipating at 1.)
.
Given that poison (and disease) have long been extremely lackluster, and Major Bleed is looking like that is supposed to beef this up... I have hopes that we might see:
- poison elemental flares (the green noxious cloud swirling around the weapon) see the same sort of thing (fire at 2s intervals)
and also
- those selfsame Ambushing Daggers get the same treatment (fire their damage at 2s intervals).
GMs?
GHOSTPANTS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/20/2021 08:49 AM CDT
personally i like the think it would have an initial damage component. Consider this example of the wording:
A ragged wound rips open a cave gnome's jugular, which begins spurting blood.
it would seem odd to have "ragged wound" and "rip open" and not cause some sort of initial damage.
I am also very curious of the wording for blood shield,
"you see the blood raise from the ground and coalesce around you forming a gruesome barrier of protection"
please have custom spell messaging for this!
GRUMSKULL
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/20/2021 10:17 AM CDT
So will Bloodburst work on non-corp undead now since undead are no longer immune to the PSM3 version of 'major bleed'.
PRICKLIES
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
04/20/2021 10:19 AM CDT
>> will this spell then have an initial damage component as well?
>> if not what will the damage be based around? warding margin only? Are any lores applicable to the damage as well or just the shield aspect of it?
>> personally i like the think it would have an initial damage component. Consider this example of the wording:
701 already has initial damage. See https://gswiki.play.net/Blood_Burst_(701):
There's no mention of changing the initial damage in the design doc.
The design doc (1) changes the current bleeding injury to Major Bless (2) creates a second lore benefit, the blood shield.
>> if not what will the damage be based around? warding margin only? Are any lores applicable to the damage as well or just the shield aspect of it?
>> personally i like the think it would have an initial damage component. Consider this example of the wording:
701 already has initial damage. See https://gswiki.play.net/Blood_Burst_(701):
| The damage dealt to the target for the initial cast of this spell, assuming the target does not already have a bleeding neck injury, is 5 + 1 damage per 20 warding failure, with the end result truncated. A healthy target struck with a 119 endroll would take (5 + [19/20]) = 5.95 = 5 damage, and have a 5 per round bleeding injury to the neck. |
There's no mention of changing the initial damage in the design doc.
The design doc (1) changes the current bleeding injury to Major Bless (2) creates a second lore benefit, the blood shield.
DALARAN34
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
10/04/2021 09:14 PM CDT
Estild mentioned that we should list any items that these changes affect for consideration if they need to be updated. Here are a few that immediately jump to mind:
Soulstone Wand
(a) half of the attraction of the wand was the duration increase, which is no longer as necessary given the new duration of 725
(b) the wand is undead themed (see loresong) - will it still work with the demon version of 725?
Wyrwood Rattle
(a) rattle currently gives a non-enhancive (stackable) pseudo-demonology lore summoning benefit. But the new 725 seems to treat summoning slightly differently. How will the rattle work with the new demons?
(b) rattle is demon-themed. what about the undead versions of 725?
(c) part of the rattle's advantage was giving demons an illusion - but the new demons don't seem to need illusions (especially if they can't enter cities)
Animate Dead Weapon Wands
(a) How will these work going forward under the revamp? Will the new summons also use these?
(b) Since some of our summons will be innately undead, will they also be able to hit other undead without blesses at all?
(c) With the new bless changes, are we able to bless the flared versions of the weapons?
LORD-STIGS
Re: Feedback Request: Sorcerer Updates
02/18/2022 03:47 PM CST
In addition to some of the suggestions above regarding 716 updates (lore-flavor,DoT spread): could 716 have the option of being CHANNELed at a single target for a higher percentage-chance to hit a vital area similar to bolt spells? The spell is powerful, but you can end up wasting a good deal of mana 16 points at a time hitting only non-vital areas.
KRAKII
Poison damage (both flares/swirling cloud, and ambushin daggers)
02/25/2022 09:52 AM CST
<See also the entirety of my prior request> -- #2808 in this topic
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Combat,%20Magic,%20and%20Character%20Mechanics/Developer's%20Corner/view/2808
Now that the PSM3 changes and Major Bleed mechanics have been in for a while, howsabout speeding up how poison is handled from combat results? I have both an "elemental" flare on a weapon (which has a flare's chance of happening at all, and then needs time to actually inflict any damage) as well as one of the ambushing daggers, and both of them could really stand to have their damage sped up to the "every two seconds" like is all the rage now.
.
Thanks!
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Combat,%20Magic,%20and%20Character%20Mechanics/Developer's%20Corner/view/2808
Now that the PSM3 changes and Major Bleed mechanics have been in for a while, howsabout speeding up how poison is handled from combat results? I have both an "elemental" flare on a weapon (which has a flare's chance of happening at all, and then needs time to actually inflict any damage) as well as one of the ambushing daggers, and both of them could really stand to have their damage sped up to the "every two seconds" like is all the rage now.
.
Thanks!
LORD-STIGS
Re: Poison damage (both flares/swirling cloud, and ambushin daggers)
05/18/2022 05:17 PM CDT
For 703, could re-cast on a target be made to refresh the 15 second timer, rather than just no impact? Include also the open cast AOE version of this spell be made to refresh the debuff timer for all targets, rather than 'fail to find a target' when the debuff is still present on the mob?
thank you!
thank you!
