I've been brainstorming this a bit and I honestly think I would enjoy DoT combat if it's fast enough. I think it's achievable.

I see that some of the DoT spells now have cast RT reducing conditionals, which I think is the right approach:
710: 30 second buff, if target dies under effect of 710, that reduces next 710 cast RT to 0.1s. Requires 50 combined ranks of elemental lore.
718: Every curse or DoT on the target reduces cast RT by 0.1s. Minimum 0.1s. Requires 25 ranks of demonology lore.

So what's the rotation that might work?

Single target normal rotation:
1) Start with a pet attack - probably something that puts them in RT like DK Feint. Sorcs can't just stand there casting and do 706 last as it's too dangerous.
2) 716 at 3s.
3) Next up, 710 at 1s.
4) Next up, 718 at 1s.
5) Next up, 706 for the empowered kill. I suspect about 1-2 seconds is going to kill any normal critter as you will have had 716 hit 5-6 times, 710 hit 2-4 times, 718 3-5 times, and probably 1 more pet attack.

Total kill time 6-7 seconds.

The problem is that this costs 50 mana...and the other DoT option is 701, which is honestly quite crappy damage unless the major bleed status makes it do more damage? Right now you're looking at like 7-8 dmg instantly + 7-8 per round + 7-8 per second once you start casting 706. I think that's a measly 30 damage overall in the above example?

If you skip 718 and cast 706 1 second sooner, you get 7 ticks of 716 and 5 ticks of 710, plus another pet attack (after a total of 7 seconds). Maybe that's enough to kill? For 32 mana at cap it's not too bad...but you really need some potential for 716 or 710 to kill earlier to compare to typical methods that have a good chance of 1 shot kill.

The good news is that if there's another critter, your 710/716 instantly migrate over, and you can immediately channel 706 and they'll die fairly quickly.

Concerns/thoughts I have with the above:
1) It would be nice if 716 had some functionality where you could spread the plague for cheaper by using a charge, similar to how 909 channeled self-cast works. It is already a spell where you cast it and get a number of reactive charges, but if you could use a charge on demand for like 5 mana, that would make the 716/710/718/706 combo more mana-feasible (39 mana...so like having to cast DC twice). I'd also probably like to see the reactive flare either removed or able to be disabled so you could control it better.

2) As I said, 6-7s average kill time is probably ok, but there needs to be some decent chance of critical death before then to make up for things that will slow it down like fumbles or being warded off.

3) This type of rotation should be possible in different formulas...there needs to be a cheaper way for levelers, so I think 701 is the answer at lower levels, but it's got to do more dmg than it does right now. Also, why not make 707 be considered a DoT? Heck if 710 is a "DoT" I don't see why 707 can be as well. That way you could have 716 be the necromancy opener while 707 is the demonology opener...and for levelers, a 701/707/706 combo would work and hopefully be mana-feasible. Considering how bad 701 is, it should probably get some way to reduce its cast RT as well.

4) I don't particularly like the part about 706 transferring to a new target where it maintains its original duration. Do you really think it would be too strong if it refreshed the duration so if you were trying to take out a room of like 4 critters with this method, you wouldn't have to recast and start over by the 4th critter. It would still be a fairly slow "AOE" solution.

Anyways, I hope to see this playstyle work well once it gets tested, tweaked, and live. With the right balance, it can be fast enough and unique.

<The problem is that this costs 50 mana>

Depending on the pet attack, could be 57 instead.... but yea, if it's expected that sorcerers are going to be using all those spells against the majority of critters they hunt, there aren't gonna be a lot of sorcerers that pick up the DoT path..... unless sorcerers get something like Mana Leech or 320.

At level 95, spending around 30 mana per critter is comfortably doable... provided the rift doesn't drain my mana on me more often then it gives me an infusion. I've been spending around this much since hunting yeti/dwellers in the very late 60's, but only cause I was able to make strategic use of Symbol of Mana, SACRIFICE, and MANA PULSE to actually finish a hunt fried. Aside from "boss" critters, the spells will hopefully be balanced around that kind of mana expenditure, otherwise all but the most dedicated masochists will just stick to 702/705/711/717/719 until well post cap.


Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

—The drastic shift towards summoning as a profession characteristic isn't what I want, and the blatant ripoffs from WoW just destroy the unique flavor that GS magic and sorcerers had. If I wanted to play a WoW text ripoff, I would just play the real thing.

I don't want DoT or tedious, mediocre plinking via attrition at cap in a text game. Text power and sense of coolness comes from the instant kill, not 20 lines of spam. People in general buy high-end gear and items for their characters so they can aspire to achieve the instant kill, not continue to plink away with the same mediocrity as they were when they were level 2 in rats and had spent nothing.——

I 100% agree to this. Sorcerers are glass cannons. Please, I’m so tired of plink plink plink. And autistic components management.

We’re masters of destruction. Now are plink plink plink masters.

Unless it were possible to do your cast...
...and then walk away, so that you are not in fact standing around getting beaten on by beasties?

Maybe a use for Eye Spy? Cast more spells through it, not just Evil Eye? Lore ranks to allow you to be more rooms away? (Air for allowing it to float? Water for hitting more people? Fire for hitting harder?)

Maybe after a certain number of ranks, your horde of demons/skellies gets a Leader-type that passes your orders on to you?

Forgot to add... no making every weapon blessable regardless of how much stuff is on it.

And even more so, no making every weapon perma-blessed, with a minor padding penalty that can easily be overcome by any two-hander, and will not even be noticed by claid-users and ambushers.

If you really, REALLY have to move bless to Cat C for some reason, consider instead: any flare, combat script, etc. has a duration penalty to bless similar to a Somewhat Weighted weapon today. That way, people still have to make choices, carry alternate weapons for different scenarios, etc.

If you MUST have a Cleric service (outside of the traditional and incredibly necessary and useful resurrections), consider a tiered duration multiplier, where the weapon gets up to 5x duration on blesses at T5. That way people in search of uber weapons can still add a bunch of penalty-inducing stuff and then offset the penalty with a T5 duration multiplier. But it doesn't alter the existing foundational game design of needing to bless your weapon to fight undead. And it preserves the traditional advantage of being a Cleric/Paladin or joining Voln. People made permanent character choices to gain this ability. Don't just give it to everybody.

People often talk about "quality of life" improvements. They don't want to go find a bless. You could make an identical argument about how every class should be able to auto-resurrect themselves in the field with no penalty. People would say having to wait and get rescued and find a cleric to raise you and wait out the stat penalties is all an archaic relic of a bygone era. It no longer meets the expectations of the modern gaming environment. If we really wanted to we could all get raised or script-bot alts to do it for us. Why make us go through the hoops? Just let everyone auto-raise themselves. Quality of life, remove tediousness, etc.

But these arguments are nonsense. Don't change the game to make it easier or less time consuming. Preserve the integrity of the existing game. Let people play the game as it is.

>>I couldn't possibly disagree more.

I have to agree in that I couldn't possibly disagree more with stopping 'all dev' (followed immediately by a listing of exceptions? Wut?)

And I recognize the issue in acquiring new gamers by giving them something they believe they'll understand conceptually is Challenger Deep levels of pressure in our lands.

But yeah, if the result is to just lift and textualize another game's offering - not a fan. Can't judge personally though because no WoW here.

Doug

>720 needs to be adjusted to actually see usage from a majority of sorcs versus a minority.

It does? Why?


Avaia, player of

>You can get away with certain "tedious" things in graphical games because you're still watching animations play out and all that. In GS, you just see "Roundtime: 5 seconds." or whatever, and nobody wants to look at that garbage all day. GS also has no engagement system, whereas in WoW you can still move around while some of your spells are still winding up. In GS all you can do is stand in a room and enter commands, wait for RT, then repeat.

I'm gonna push back against this because I was one of the people that pointed out the explicit WoW ripoffs. Yes, we're seeing WoW stuff in GS, but it's flavor and thematic ideas. You umm..can't actually rip off WoW mechanics and put them in Gemstone. I'm opposed to these appropriates from a flavor point of view - the mechanics underlying them are often quite good, and things I would like to see added to the game. I just don't want it called 'Blood Shield'. PSA: Mastery: Blood SHield is a core mechanic if Blood Death Knights in WoW. It is a damage absorb that increases with the use of certain skills. It has nothing mechanically in common with typing '701 <target>'. I'm fine with 701 sucking some life force up and letting a Sorcerer have damage padding. This thematically resembles the WoW ability, but its implementation details would be pure Gemstone.

tl;dr If you're gonna rip off WoW, do it, and don't pay homage - give it a new name, and work it into the fold of Gemstone. Make Gemstone own that new ability.

>I don't doubt that the entire Dev team is passionate about what they do, but keep in mind that Discord is an echo chamber and not representative of what every paying customer wants.

This x9999999999999999. The Discord cheerleaders who are pretty much on 24/7 aren't representative of the majority of the player base. A GM could post a video of them kicking a puppy to death, and half of the people in Discord would still cheer it on just because a GM posted it.

>People in general buy high-end gear and items for their characters so they can aspire to achieve the instant kill, not continue to plink away with the same mediocrity as they were when they were level 2 in rats and had spent nothing.

And not only this, but loot in general is the primary motivator in pretty much every MMO out there. There are different methods of attaining it via in-game means of course, but that's still the primary motivation for doing most things. The loot cap in GS, at least in its current overkill form, has destroyed that concept as well. It's almost like playing a slot machine that has no cherries, no 7's, etc. it just has nothing but blank spaces.

Would anyone raid in WoW if there was no loot? No. And good luck finding anyone that would. Would anyone raid in WoW if they had to pay cash for the gear just to survive a raid? Nope. Turning GS into a P2W text version of WoW where everything end game is gear dependent is going to fail spectacularly, if that's what's coming down the pipeline after you're done nerfing the fun out of everybody.

I also believe that they're wanting to homogenize time-to-kill because of Duskruin. Pretty sure nobody actually believes the old line that nothing is nerfed/buffed/balanced around DR. And if they do, then George McFly is less gullible.

>Why must we keep reviewing things?

If I'm not mistaken, and I probably am at least to some extent, GMs get paid based on completed projects now or something like that. So why not just create 873290472930403 busy work projects to do over and over like enchanting formula? They redid that what, 4-5 times over a year?

>Every time we go through this, I lament the seeming sense of inevitability that surrounds these reviews. Why must we keep reviewing things? Surely, in a game this old, in which people have been playing characters a certain way for years or decades, and in which the game as it stands is already very good (we all pay to be here after all), a strong bias towards the status quo is reasonable, and a cautious and measured pace of development is warranted.

This. All of this wrecking ball dev that's been happening for the past 5-6 years or so needs to seriously stop, and stop changing things just for the sake of changing things too. There's a reason why this game has miraculously lasted as long as it has, other than the existence of Lich that is (Tillmen could effectively kill this entire game with the flip of a switch if he wanted to, which is kind of hilarious), and I promise you it's not because people keep having to relearn their profession or XYZ aspect of the game every few years or because you keep nerfing the fun out of everyone and reducing power levels across the board while putting ridiculously low caps on loot and other disastrous implementations like that.

Please stop.

>There is talk of reviews and balancing being required before moving onto Ascension development, but why must the existing game be changed to accommodate new content? Why can't the new content be balanced around the existing game?

DR (and probably Ascension depending on how they indirectly monetize that) is the reason for everything, and Simu will never convince me otherwise.

Nerf everybody so that they need high end gear to do high end content, but make them pay cash for said high end gear at DR (or whatever event) is the expectation I have with Ascension. And the game as a whole moving forward with all these reviews that are going to be happening.

If we wanted to go play WoW, we'd just go play WoW. It's a very simple concept to understand.

Or if you're going to insist on making us play World of Gemstone, I hope you plan on at least ripping off all the Mage teleport <town> spells. But I'm pretty sure that won't make the cut.

>There is talk of reviews and balancing being required before moving onto Ascension development, but why must the existing game be changed to accommodate new content? Why can't the new content be balanced around the existing game?

It's probably easier to monetize new content would be my guess.

Ideally, imo, the best dev would be for dev to just stop doing anything at all and leave the game alone. But since that won't happen, at least start using a scalpel instead of a wrecking ball with promises of a scalpel after, RSN.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should

~ Methais

I mean, the cynicism levels here are off the charts...

Just want to add that I am enjoying the reviews - cleric and ranger definitely got more fun to play and didn't do anything but positively change the GS experience for me. I'm hoping for the same from the sorc review and whatever reviews are done in the future.

I certainly agree that there's a danger-zone of doing to GS what Blizzard did to WoW: dumbing it down and homogenizing everything - but I don't really see that happening so far. Class distinction is super important to me and each class should continue to have serious strengths, weaknesses, and identity.

On another note, all these comparisons to WoW, but I agree with the comment earlier that these changes seem more like Diablo than WoW - but I also think it's irrelevant since both of those games have "stolen" a ton of ideas from other games as well...they're just the most obvious comparisons due to popularity.

As I explored in my last post, I am very interested to see a powerful DoT playstyle...I always enjoyed affliction warlocks in WoW I guess...but if I could toss a few dots on something then 706 it into dust and have a kill speed average around 5-6 seconds post-cap, I think I'd find it just as fun as blowing something up with a single cast. It becomes tedious just spamming 1 spell and I like the idea of doing 3-4 spells in 6 seconds and watching it die quickly. When I switch to a different character I want a different playstyle, not just a different spell button to spam.

>And not only this, but loot in general is the primary motivator in pretty much every MMO out there. There are different methods of attaining it via in-game means of course, but that's still the primary motivation for doing most things. The loot cap in GS, at least in its current overkill form, has destroyed that concept as well. It's almost like playing a slot machine that has no cherries, no 7's, etc. it just has nothing but blank spaces.

Just want to comment, what got us the loot cap is directly related to the issue that Unicorn3 have pointed out earlier in this thread:

>There is no balance or game integrity possible when a majority of people are allowed to blindly script to the end reward, whether it's loot, experience, silvers, or any other niche currency/reward. That's why other successful MMOs that GemStone increasingly openly tries to emulate don't allow what is essentially cheating, or 100% automation without putting in the manual work, to get to the end of the game.

The botting combined with the ability to do it with a big multi-account team of however number of characters one would want, is what got us here today with the loot cap. In an ideal world where multi-accounting is limited (even to something generous like 3 concurrent logins per IP address to still allow for smaller MA groups) and fully automated script hunting is banned, there'd be no need for a loot cap.

>Nerf everybody so that they need high end gear to do high end content, but make them pay cash for said high end gear at DR (or whatever event) is the expectation I have with Ascension. And the game as a whole moving forward with all these reviews that are going to be happening.

I agree with some of your sentiments about the many changes to GS in the last 5 years, but this notion that the devs are systematically nerfing everyone is so divorced from reality that I had to point it out. Never in the history of Gemstone has gear been less necessary in regard to playing the game effectively. Never before in the history of the game have the players been this overpowered. All the dev that I've seen since I took 6 years off has been a massive net increase in power. The notion that there is some sort of conspiracy to make the game gear dependent has no rational foundation, and to assume that they are going to somehow turn this entire paradigm on its head with Ascension is just a gross assumption with no support.

>If another 10% are returning players who have inactive accounts, and they're looking to get back to something they fondly remember, that's another six hundred almost new.

>And that last number is probably way too overly conservative.

For these players specifically, returning to find that everything has changed and nothing is how they remember may not lead to good retention numbers. For completely new players on the other hand, I have no idea. Hard problem, like you said. Their preferences will be entirely unpredictable, and for this reason attempting to cater to them will not be a successful strategy.


>I agree with some of your sentiments about the many changes to GS in the last 5 years, but this notion that the devs are systematically nerfing everyone is so divorced from reality that I had to point it out. Never in the history of Gemstone has gear been less necessary in regard to playing the game effectively. Never before in the history of the game have the players been this overpowered. All the dev that I've seen since I took 6 years off has been a massive net increase in power. The notion that there is some sort of conspiracy to make the game gear dependent has no rational foundation, and to assume that they are going to somehow turn this entire paradigm on its head with Ascension is just a gross assumption with no support.

I think you're right in general. High end gear has never been necessary at any point I can remember, although I will say that the difference between entry-level vs. high end gear has grown dramatically, to never before seen levels. I hope this doesn't become unduly significant.

Regarding systematic nerfing: they have nerfed some things, replaced them with others. Survivability is up for many classes. Some of the net power increases are indeed gear-related. When it comes to wizards, even with core tap, the power ceiling will always be lower than old-style Immolation with 0 RT. The memory of past nerfs casts a long shadow. They have also seemingly (reports vary, and I don't play a ranger) nerfed Spike Thorn, and are widely rumored to be on the verge of a significant bard nerf. At the risk of speaking out of turn, I believe these are in part where Methais is coming from. For my part, when I saw they were proposing to reduce 720's kill chance (and possibly 709's success chance and 706's duration, hopefully a GM can weigh in and clarify) my anti-nerf reflex also went into high gear.

Lastly, +1 to your Animus and Transfusion ideas. I think these are stylistic improvements, and I hope they gain traction.


>I hate browsing in legacy view. I think that I'm knee deep in the feedback request for the sorcerer updates and then next thing I know I find out that I'm in some philosophical discussion about how we're supposed to stop developing the game, how we get new players, etc. Gotta make sure I'm in threaded view...CRAP

Lol, my bad.

<I mean, the cynicism levels here are off the charts...>

I dunno if I'm included in this assessment or not, either way I don't blame anyone that's wary of changes to sorcery. While many changes have been excellent, most here have played their sorcerer long enough to have been let down and/or screwed over a time or two too many.

Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic. 309 has become a staple of my cleric so I'm hoping the sorcerer DoT will be at least as well implemented. On the other hand, my ranger can't count on her companion to make any more difference in combat then she could before those changes were made... so I'll be pleasantly surprised if the pet spells are useful. Regardless, none of my current staples are being touched in any significant way (according to the doc, anyway), so at worst I'll just carry on as usual.


Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

First, thanks for all the effort and time for this. I am hopeful sorcerers can find a balance of power and unique creativity without being overly complicated.

RE: Proposal Goals
1) interactive hunting - I don't want to play a tedious combat profession because it's discouraging to group hunting. No one is going to wait for me just because I want to razzle dazzle with my DoT setup even with the acceleration option OR wait for me to get a soul fragment. Plus, why waste the mana when I cast DC something in 13 mana or so?
2) reinforcing single-target strength - Nerfing Pain didn't support this goal. Improving DoTs might work if it was more automated (power-up/acceleration spell was self-cast instead of critter cast). More target jumping or more AOE, less screen scroll, more consolidated damage outputs.
3) summoner theme - okay the Pet system is nice but... why do I want a caster when I am one? We aren't just summoners though. Wish there was more hybrid spiritual/elemental flavor too.
4) QOL of sorcerer systems - Sacrifice got more complicated, scroll infusion details were non-existent, adding concentration?, mass 717 without 707 first is nice and requested.
5) competitive lore decision - appreciate the effort here but still think Necromancy has the lead with 701, 716, and Pets (our disablers are more beneficial to melee attackers than casters)


701
Is this blood shield going to interact with Parasite weapons?

702
I like the idea. Would prefer it if disrupted the mana around a target until death to cause extra damage from any further offensive magic from caster/group. Otherwise, I think I'd rather just get a sigil staff and save time.

705
This is great, thanks! Any improvements to the bolt version?

706
Would rather this be self-cast and automatically root/stun targets I cast a targeted DoT spell on.

707
Meh. Could be fun to rapid fire swarm something but the novelty will wear off. I'd don't like pets taking my kill glory. Not sure casting pets are desirable over melee ones.

708?
With Grasp of the Grave, limb disruption is less desirable. Maybe allow the severed limbs to explode and cause extra damage.

709
Hopefully we'll have ways to increase success with hidden bandits.

710
Open version gets no improvement? Again I feel siloed. Will have to see how the increased potency works. Right now, it's definitely a background spell.

715
I think our various curse options could be reworked to support the various sacrifice utilizations. I don't want to worry about more components (soul fragments) tbh.

716
Needs open cast version.

717
Yes, thank you!

718
Yes, thank you!

720
Targeted version should still have mana controls affect cost and no cooldown. Open version can be 20 mana with cooldown.

725
I feel like the undead melee attackers would be most desirable here. Are animate weapon wands going to work with demons or is this something else we'll need to buy? Again, don't like soul fragments. Let us use chalks to increase duration of demons.
What happens with learned demon runestones?

730
Lackluster. Too much scroll. Just consolidate damage from those 4. Let this be our big bang for the buck spell.

735
Fair.

740
Okay but no soul fragments! Just give it a cooldown with demon lore decreasing cooldown or increasing uses per day.

750
Again I feel the undead melee attackers win here considering magic immune targets are our weakness.


Sacrifice
I appreciate the separate timers, but don't like the soul fragments. Let SACRIFICE SELF be the 740 escape mechanism with either a cooldown OR cost, not both. The cost could be a mana/spirit/stamina or even a deed cost.

Pet System Updates
Really enjoy the work and ideas here but still feel necromancy is in the lead.

Concentration
This doesn't feel like a sorcerer behavior, it's more mental.

>Yes, everyone knows that forum grumps are the purest expression of the player base.

In fairness, no one has said that.

For my part, I said that I think all channels through which new game development is discussed - including this forum, Discord, and anything else - are disproportionately composed of players who are excited by new changes and enjoy the game play being in a state of constant flux, when compared to the non-participating player population.


>Several of the other professions and spell lists have been updated over the last few years. If "please stop" is what you wanted, you might have spoken up then.

I don't enjoy being negative or complaining. I am not interested in participating in new development discussions, or even thinking about it. I play the game all the time, but often go years without a forum post. Over the years, when I see new development proposals, I feel dread and foreboding. I quickly scan them to see if anything I like will be ruined. And then, hopefully, I breathe a sigh of relief and push it out of my mind and continue doing the stuff I enjoy. It is the recent, rapid pace of sweeping new changes that has made me feel compelled to advocate my point of view. I don't want silence to misconstrued as ambivalence, or even acquiescence.

“I'm rather disappointed in the single-target DOT Plinkmaster direction sorcery is going. At this point, you may as well re-write history. This level of power & shock and awe is not worthy of exile and prejudice for the Faendryl. Maelshyve may as well have been taken out by meteors from wizards. That sorcerers are remotely effective in invasions is just laughable now.”

Best post. 100% agree.

Xred’s player

Please understand the "official" history is from the POV of an Illistim elf and don't throw it in anyone's face.

Sorcerers used to be called masters of destruction before their profession page was re-written. Now it states, "The two primary foci of sorcerous magic are Demonology and Necromancy, though it also commands the manipulation of essence and a number of illusions. Much of sorcery is dedicated to destruction of both animate and inanimate matter, with many spells focused on combat-oriented magic."

Nothing of that means they should own DoT combat or be further siloed into this pariah existence hunting experience because they need more time and space to let their overly complicated spells breathe.

I wanted to start out with the acknowledgement that our developers have done a great job in preparing the game for future enhancements and trying to keep it fresh and interesting, particularly for those that are and have been capped for a long time.

Based on the review, I think that sorcerers break down into two primary damage types, each with two sub categories of summoning beneath it. I'll do my best to define what I mean below.

You have the chaos sorcerer, which in my opinion is the original version of the sorcerer. They are destructive and they blend the elements and the spiritual in a way to do significant damage to a single target.

You have the DOT sorcerer, which has always existed to an extent, but never been a viable path. This sorcerer is your cat and mouse sorcerer, the one that disables and plays with their pray before <slowly> killing it with DOTs.

Essentially, you pick the type of damage you want to apply, and your secondary decision is what type of summoner will you be? Will you be a demonologist or a necromancer? To date, demonologist don’t really exist. The necromancer does. In the future, it looks like demonology is at least a viable selection for summoner type.

The following will represent my thoughts on each damage archetype, on each summoner archetype, and then the mechanics in general.

CHAOS Sorcerer

The chaos sorcerer is defined by their nearly exclusive use of 702, 705, 717, and 719. This is a viable path in every part of the game. This review provides some benefits to 702 and 705 by making the dispel permanent for 702 and by adding an additional damage cycle for 705 for NCU and creatures under any status condition. Outside of that, this sorcerer was left alone. I think most people were hoping for that, since 717 and 719 are two of the best crit spells out there if your build and CS supports it. Make no mistake, this IS the traditional Gemstone sorcerer. Death and destruction, manipulating the spiritual and elemental to drive our damage.

DOT Sorcerer

The DOT sorcerer is not one that exists as a viable path today, but is defined by the use of 701, 710, 716, and 718. The review focuses heavily on this build by reducing the cast time of spells like 710 (with the appropriate lore and killing a creature it is active on), by eliminating the retribution on 718 and increasing the frequency of ticks, and by introducing 706, which allows for all DOTs to tick every second for 10 seconds. On paper, these are all buffs to the existing DOT Sorcerer. I’ll try to show below why I still do not think that this (as designed) is the correct path, or even one that any sorcerer would use outside of very specific use cases within our current content (Emperor/Empress in Reim and the Pirate Captains in OSA).

Summoner Types

The demonologist will now have a viable path to summon demons through the valences that sorcerers are the master of. This path feels equal to the necromancy path in that at each step there is a creature that can be summoned based off of the lore. Each creature offers something specific.

The necromancer will now have an easier time of managing their undead. Hopefully, gone are the days of tedious reagent gathering to use a single spell. Again, the path feels equal to the demonologist in terms of what’s available at each break point.

For the remainder of the post, I will not focus much on the summoner types directly – other than to say that I think 707 and 725 are FANTASTIC spells. I love the thought that was put into them. I love the lore trade offs. I love that they were rolled into essentially a single spell vs breaking them out for demonology and necromancy. What I do not love is that our capstone spell is a short duration, high cool down summon. That misses the mark substantially in my opinion. I want my spells to be usable at least once per hunt, preferably multiple times per hunt. At 50 mana per cast, that would limit my ability to use the spell to the point of abuse over the course of a long hunt. I hope that we can find a different use for 750 outside of summoning, but if that is the path that we must take, please let this spell be used more frequently.

What the review got right

The summoning spells 707 and 725 were well done. I think they’ll be a great addition to both the capped sorcerer and the leveling sorcerer.

Buffing 705. This spell needed it. For the mana invested, there really was very little reason to use it over 702 if you were casting in guarded. It only provided a noticeable benefit over 702 if you were casting in offensive and channeled.

Making 701 interesting. I hope that the blood shield is a longer duration spell that can be kept up for multiple hunts. I do like the idea of dropping 701 on a few creatures before leaving a hunting ground to grow my shield to be ready for when I venture out next. If this is a single creature duration buff, then I’m less interested in it.

An attempt to make DOTs tick faster and cast faster. I do not think it went far enough, but this IS the right first step in making DOTs a viable path (even if it’s one that 11 out of 12 people in the feedback document and many people on the official boards seem to hate).

A recognition that 714 requirements are CUMBERSOME. Without any additional information here, it’s tough to weigh in, but this spell does need to become easier to cast and less of a pain in the rear.

Evil Eye.

Not touching 719 for the worse.

Ensorcell. It only makes sense to standardize it with other classes services.


What the review got wrong

I believe that a lot of the feedback regarding the DOT path for sorcerers was discarded. In the feedback documentation for sorcerers, 11 out of 12 people were EXTREMELY negative in their response to making sorcerers a DOT class. I think most people wanted a different path for sorcerers to take. While 12 people do not represent all sorcerers, it looks like the break down on the official forums have generally followed the same view points. DOTs were not something that people wanted.

Making a major summoning spell our capstone. Sure, 750 was major demonic summoning or some such back in the 90s. But then, I’m fairly certain it was one of two or perhaps the only summoning spell on the sorcerer’s radar. The thought was that it would be POWERFUL, and the implementation looks like it is powerful, but the cool down and the lost opportunity to do something more interesting with this slot is a major negative in my mind to making 750 another summoning spell.

The DOT changes did not go far enough to making it a viable path. DOTs all need to have a path to casting in less than 3 seconds – and doing it consistently without a lot of hoops to jump through. If I’m spending 6 seconds trying to load 2 dots, then another 10 seconds forcing them to tick quickly, then this review has missed the point entirely. When discussed in the sorcerer feedback document, the action economy was targeted to be 9 seconds or three actions. For something like that to hit, I need to be able to roll DOTs on faster. Perhaps an avenue could be tying in a DOT to 706. So that when I cast 706, for the appropriate amount of mana, it also puts 718 or 716 or what ever other DOT I choose on the creature. That way I could stay closer to 9 seconds of action economy instead of something much higher. Another idea would be to cast 706 first, and if 706 is up, allow a 1 second cast time on all DOTs that would travel through the link.

Spell aiming still being required for 708, 710, and 720. Sorcerers have the highest training point penalty of any pures. We’re expected to 2.5x spells, have a tremendous amount of lore that needs to be trained to maximize the bonus to our spells, and also train in spell aiming 2x to have a small number of spells actually function well? Not to mention that 705 bolted, 713, 111, and 118 aren’t compelling for a sorcerer to train towards until well post cap. Spell aiming should not be required to effectively use our native spells – or if so, make spell aiming a more compelling path for sorcerers to take up.

Twilight Echo, more hoops to jump through for a spell that can only be used every 5 minutes. I hate this. I’d almost rather scrap this, reduce the cool down, increase the look back period in which we have our DOTs available. As it is – this is just a bad spell that has the same limited uses that a viable DOT set up has…Reim and OSA. I would never want to have my group wait for me to DOT stack and then be time bound by when we have to engage a creature to maximize my ability to contribute.

Making curse of the stars a viable buff for sorcerer bolting (in addition to some worth while sorcerer bolts). I do like the duality of 705, it’d be great if some other spells could have that same dual benefit.
Not providing a CS based AOE. This was probably the #1 thing that sorcerers have requested over the years. There is a nice chart in the feedback documentation showing how every other pure has multiple viable paths to deal damage and a warding based or bolt based AOE. Sorcerers? They had warding only as their path to deal damage (AS is considered too low for effective bolting) and again 0.0 warding based AOE damage.

I think it missed the boat on the soul fragement system. It’s just one more additional resource to manage. Are these physical items (PLEASE NO) or are these something tracked only “on paper”? They are easy to generate, but they force the sorcerer to either sacrifice or use 706 to kill a mob. This forces the sorcerer down the DOT path to most effectively get a soul fragment. It feels hyper contrived to justify the entire idea of a DOT path. Outside of 706, there are a lot of things that have to be just right to sacrifice normally. Finally, the cool down on the mana return is frustratingly high.

Lastly, I think we missed an opportunity to make lores more compelling. For the chaos sorcerer, there are very few tie ins to elemental and spiritual lore. I’d like to see these lores reduced in cost, and targeted to impact the chaos sorcerer’s primary spells (702, 705, 710, 713, 719, 720 [open valences to cold/vacuum/heat/etc planes that would cause damage based on the plane of your choosing]). I’d like to see the sorcerer specific lore reduced in cost and targeted to impact only those spells associated with the undead or valences (704, 707, 709, 712, 716, 718, 720 [size of the valence and total maximum damage], 725, 740)
Based on the goals laid out in the design documentation, I feel that #3 was clearly hit with 707 and 725 (750 I still dislike). #4 may be hit depending on how 714 plays out, along with presumably the reduction in requirements for 725 and 750, but we did manage to sneak a little bit back in with soul fragment requirements.

I’d like to know what the community thinks about these ideas? I hope they at the least generate some constructive discussion or provide some points for the GMs to consider as the designs are further refined.

Thanks for reading this book,
Ashur <Shattered>

<I believe that a lot of the feedback regarding the DOT path for sorcerers was discarded.>

When I read the update doc the first time, I got the impression that they had already laid out what they were going to do and the feedback doc was just a formality. I had the same impression about a couple other feedback requests made recently as well.


<The DOT sorcerer is not one that exists as a viable path today, but is defined by the use of 701, 710, 716, and 718.>

If you mean it's not viable to go this path all the way to cap, I can certainly agree. Below level 40-45 it's certainly viable, though. It's just not as attractive to most because it takes more time. I went from the late teens through early 30's with the 706/710 combo.


<Spell aiming still being required for 708, 710, and 720. Sorcerers have the highest training point penalty of any pures. We’re expected to 2.5x spells, have a tremendous amount of lore that needs to be trained to maximize the bonus to our spells, and also train in spell aiming 2x to have a small number of spells actually function well?>

Yes, this. Sept when looking over the update doc I'd be tempted to change "maximize the bonus to our spells" to "make our spells useful" where the DoT spells are concerned.

Even though both my empath and cleric have pretty heavy lore training for their levels, I can easily see myself doing without the lores completely on those characters. I cannot say the same for my sorcerer at any level.


<Twilight Echo, more hoops to jump through for a spell that can only be used every 5 minutes. I hate this. I’d almost rather scrap this, reduce the cool down, increase the look back period in which we have our DOTs available. As it is – this is just a bad spell that has the same limited uses that a viable DOT set up has…Reim and OSA. I would never want to have my group wait for me to DOT stack and then be time bound by when we have to engage a creature to maximize my ability to contribute.>

I agree the 5 minute cooldown is excessive. Takes it from something useful to something I'll forget I have. The cooldown should be in line with that of 320, if it needs one at all. Assuming 730 doesn't count it's self as a DoT spell, you'd still have to cast those spells regularly and this would go a long way towards addressing my concerns about a DoT path being more mana intensive then is viable below cap.

Heck, making it so you have to cast those spells between uses of 730 would even be better then a cooldown for addressing any concerns of over-use without being so limiting players just don't bother with it.

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.