Me again. Back to bitch about Reim creatures again.
Specifically, the TWENTY @#)&@!*^@!(&@^#$ING SECOND RoundTimes that just about half of everything there can inflict with their silly shouts and growls and whatever.
Which, of course, are additive with OTHER inflicted RoundTimes.
Seriouly? No. SERIOUSLY?
There's not even a die-roll to tell you when you're improving, it just done happens.
.
What, if anything, can defend you against these stupid warcries?
At least with the CMans, you can pretend to try to get better (by getting ranks OF whatever it is that's afflicting you), though apparently even when you have 5 ranks in <what is being done to you> AND 5 ranks in Cunning Defense, they still have like a 65%-plus chance of hitting.
WarCries you can't done do nuttin'.
.
So what's a body to do? (Other than, you know: lay there. Like a dead body. Not doing anything, because, well. RoundTime.)
KRAKII
LUXELLE
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
04/12/2020 02:41 PM CDT
Hah, it is not just Reim...
I was caught in stacked RTs from one of those terror-swarms as I passed through a room in the Sanctum that lasted well past the time I was dead.
The red bar for RT was off the right side of my window and the critters were still adding to it.
Symbol of Transcendence only lasts so long...
And then I was super dead. With the rest of the RT.
* Special * does not begin to describe the experience. I sympathize with you.
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
Lawronius: The stuff ... the TownCrier team does is incredible.
I was caught in stacked RTs from one of those terror-swarms as I passed through a room in the Sanctum that lasted well past the time I was dead.
The red bar for RT was off the right side of my window and the critters were still adding to it.
Symbol of Transcendence only lasts so long...
And then I was super dead. With the rest of the RT.
* Special * does not begin to describe the experience. I sympathize with you.
---
;tune towncrier
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
Xanith: "It's flat out amazing"
Doug: "100.times ^"
Lawronius: The stuff ... the TownCrier team does is incredible.
SHAHRON
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 10:35 AM CDT
I personally find stacking roundtime to be one of the most spectacularly unfun mechanics in the game. It gives even more relative power to the classes who can deal with it (like Wizards, with Stop Time) that are already overpowered. If you search Discord, you'll see many of the development GMs commenting on how it's one of the few ways they've found to introduce risk to capped content because of players' stacking of spells and equipment.
In my humble opinion, not a game designer, the goal of a post-cap character is to reward your continued effort to swing the proverbial scales in your favor rather than the monsters'. Acquiring better and better equipment, better and better skills, is the (mechanical) "point" of post-cap life. Introducing mechanics explicitly designed to render that player effort irrelevant feels unfair. If players are "supposed" to have a set power level, a set risk level -- why even have buffs at all? Why have player enchanting? Why have the ability to cast buffs on other players? Introducing mechanics that invalidate your own system because you can't find a way to balance the other pre-existing systems is -- again, in my opinion not as a game designer -- a cop-out.
In my humble opinion, not a game designer, the goal of a post-cap character is to reward your continued effort to swing the proverbial scales in your favor rather than the monsters'. Acquiring better and better equipment, better and better skills, is the (mechanical) "point" of post-cap life. Introducing mechanics explicitly designed to render that player effort irrelevant feels unfair. If players are "supposed" to have a set power level, a set risk level -- why even have buffs at all? Why have player enchanting? Why have the ability to cast buffs on other players? Introducing mechanics that invalidate your own system because you can't find a way to balance the other pre-existing systems is -- again, in my opinion not as a game designer -- a cop-out.
DOUG
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 10:47 AM CDT
>>In my humble opinion, not a game designer, the goal of a post-cap character is to reward your continued effort to swing the proverbial scales in your favor rather than the monsters'. Acquiring better and better equipment, better and better skills, is the (mechanical) "point" of post-cap life. Introducing mechanics explicitly designed to render that player effort irrelevant feels unfair. If players are "supposed" to have a set power level, a set risk level -- why even have buffs at all? Why have player enchanting? Why have the ability to cast buffs on other players? Introducing mechanics that invalidate your own system because you can't find a way to balance the other pre-existing systems is -- again, in my opinion not as a game designer -- a cop-out.
I ask a question because I want to be sure I understand the point when I state my disagreement. At cap or some magical point post cap the challenge or risk in advancing should stop?
Doug
I ask a question because I want to be sure I understand the point when I state my disagreement. At cap or some magical point post cap the challenge or risk in advancing should stop?
Doug
SHAHRON
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 11:44 AM CDT
Are you asking if I personally believe players should stop gaining power relative to monsters at some point? I'm not sure I think you should be able to reduce the risk of combat entirely, no.
Reintroducing "challenge" by artificially preventing a player from taking actions until they die, having had no opportunity to react, is unfair. It's an admission that they've allowed players to amass too many defensive buffs, armor that's "too" enchanted, to allow a character to obtain "too" many post-cap Training Points, etc., and rather than adjust those scaling buffs or introducing limits on the number of buffs, or otherwise requiring the player to make intelligent choices about switching their stance, or reacting to input, you're incentivizing the player to unleash burst damage before the monsters get a chance to do anything.
I personally don't find getting 5 RT, turned into 10 RT, turned into 30 RT, resulting in death, fun. Nor is it fun to have to desperately nuke something out of existence because if it gets a single maneuver off on you, you're dead. Especially when chosen favorites -- wizards -- obtain get-out-of-jail-free cards.
Reintroducing "challenge" by artificially preventing a player from taking actions until they die, having had no opportunity to react, is unfair. It's an admission that they've allowed players to amass too many defensive buffs, armor that's "too" enchanted, to allow a character to obtain "too" many post-cap Training Points, etc., and rather than adjust those scaling buffs or introducing limits on the number of buffs, or otherwise requiring the player to make intelligent choices about switching their stance, or reacting to input, you're incentivizing the player to unleash burst damage before the monsters get a chance to do anything.
I personally don't find getting 5 RT, turned into 10 RT, turned into 30 RT, resulting in death, fun. Nor is it fun to have to desperately nuke something out of existence because if it gets a single maneuver off on you, you're dead. Especially when chosen favorites -- wizards -- obtain get-out-of-jail-free cards.
DOUG
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 11:57 AM CDT
I'm not arguing any of that - I might take a run at 'wizards' and 'favorites' just for grins.
But what I am saying is I see no recommendation. 'It is unfair' doesn't suggest how to fix it.
As far as I'm concerned, give everyone in the game a potential out from these situations. Oh, wait - Transcendence, Escape, Shadow Cloak, various items. Perhaps we're there already?
Point being, everyone needs to be nerfed if you want the 'old rules' to be the 'fair rules'. What we experience over the decades in this game is just an arms race, with GMs striving to ensure death will sometimes occur, and players striving to ensure if it does happen, it doesn't happen to them.
If you think RT lock is the problem, I disagree.
Doug
But what I am saying is I see no recommendation. 'It is unfair' doesn't suggest how to fix it.
As far as I'm concerned, give everyone in the game a potential out from these situations. Oh, wait - Transcendence, Escape, Shadow Cloak, various items. Perhaps we're there already?
Point being, everyone needs to be nerfed if you want the 'old rules' to be the 'fair rules'. What we experience over the decades in this game is just an arms race, with GMs striving to ensure death will sometimes occur, and players striving to ensure if it does happen, it doesn't happen to them.
If you think RT lock is the problem, I disagree.
Doug
KRAKII
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 12:40 PM CDT
I have an issue with the uncapped nature of it.
Particularly when there are multiple creatures (each capable of adding), little or no way to offset it (like with War Cries in Reim), and the repeated selection of "the worst" (I see the "+20 seconds!" on sequential actions by the same creature).
Addressing the first & third points:
- When there are multiple creatures, the PC may never get an opportunity to try and mitigate the problem. (Kill one or more, set up some kind of Haste ability, flee the room, whatever.)
* Particularly when those creatures GEN by "giving you RoundTime" (as both the mini-swarms in Reim, and the Rares in Reim, do when they pop in a room).
- Previously I have commented that even if creatures DO have to follow similar limitations as PCs do--for example, when I run the Empress out of mana... she stops casting--the issue with the "+20 seconds!" War Cry is that creatures have NO REASON not to use up all of their stamina on the biggest baddest worstest effect they can possibly generate. Unlike PCs--who are expected to still be alive and needing to manage their resources--creatures come with the presumption of imminent death: some PC is going to do unto them, any moment now.
.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if they did something more randomly from the list of available actions to take. (My buddy just laid down some RT, I'll attack the poor sod!)
Having chosen an RT-adding action, I wouldn't mind nearly so much if they chose more randomly from the list of available RTs to inflict. (Do something that provides only 5-10 seconds of RT, rather than reliably jumping straight to the 20s.)
Having generated RT to be added, I wouldn't mind nearly so much if existing RT helped mitigate newly added RT. (Similar to how EWave now works: randomized result rather than flat, and "if you've already got it, you get less added.")
Or if there were a limit (by time span?) that offset some or all: to the effect of "You have gotten 5 instances of +RT in the last 15 seconds. Any additional instances will be limited to +1s each, for the next 15 seconds," for example. Sure, a big enough horde can still jack you up, but by that point you're going to die from FvF effects anyhow.
Or if mitigating effects were able to offset enemy action completely. (Things like Tonis can "reduce to 1s" effects that you-the-PC generates, like a weapon swing, or healing. But if an enemy CMan gives you RT, you are also limited to a floor of 1s. Reducing that floor--for enemy action ONLY--down to 0s would be a help.)
Or if Estild could get reversed on the "135 ranks of EL:Air is not the next step progression for an additional -1s from Tonis."
.
Addressing the second point:
- Having some way to help mitigate against War Cries would be mighty useful....
Particularly when there are multiple creatures (each capable of adding), little or no way to offset it (like with War Cries in Reim), and the repeated selection of "the worst" (I see the "+20 seconds!" on sequential actions by the same creature).
Addressing the first & third points:
- When there are multiple creatures, the PC may never get an opportunity to try and mitigate the problem. (Kill one or more, set up some kind of Haste ability, flee the room, whatever.)
* Particularly when those creatures GEN by "giving you RoundTime" (as both the mini-swarms in Reim, and the Rares in Reim, do when they pop in a room).
- Previously I have commented that even if creatures DO have to follow similar limitations as PCs do--for example, when I run the Empress out of mana... she stops casting--the issue with the "+20 seconds!" War Cry is that creatures have NO REASON not to use up all of their stamina on the biggest baddest worstest effect they can possibly generate. Unlike PCs--who are expected to still be alive and needing to manage their resources--creatures come with the presumption of imminent death: some PC is going to do unto them, any moment now.
.
I wouldn't mind nearly so much if they did something more randomly from the list of available actions to take. (My buddy just laid down some RT, I'll attack the poor sod!)
Having chosen an RT-adding action, I wouldn't mind nearly so much if they chose more randomly from the list of available RTs to inflict. (Do something that provides only 5-10 seconds of RT, rather than reliably jumping straight to the 20s.)
Having generated RT to be added, I wouldn't mind nearly so much if existing RT helped mitigate newly added RT. (Similar to how EWave now works: randomized result rather than flat, and "if you've already got it, you get less added.")
Or if there were a limit (by time span?) that offset some or all: to the effect of "You have gotten 5 instances of +RT in the last 15 seconds. Any additional instances will be limited to +1s each, for the next 15 seconds," for example. Sure, a big enough horde can still jack you up, but by that point you're going to die from FvF effects anyhow.
Or if mitigating effects were able to offset enemy action completely. (Things like Tonis can "reduce to 1s" effects that you-the-PC generates, like a weapon swing, or healing. But if an enemy CMan gives you RT, you are also limited to a floor of 1s. Reducing that floor--for enemy action ONLY--down to 0s would be a help.)
Or if Estild could get reversed on the "135 ranks of EL:Air is not the next step progression for an additional -1s from Tonis."
.
Addressing the second point:
- Having some way to help mitigate against War Cries would be mighty useful....
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 01:03 PM CDT
>> Having generated RT to be added, I wouldn't mind nearly so much if existing RT helped mitigate newly added RT. (Similar to how EWave now works: randomized result rather than flat, and "if you've already got it, you get less added.")
I also have an issue with fully stacking round time.
e.g. If a bandit performs a maneuver that throws you into 10 seconds of round time. Then a 2nd bandit follows up with a maneuver that throws you into 15 seconds or round time. The end result should be that you should be in 15 seconds of round time. Not 25 seconds of round time.
Similarly if a third bandit follows up with a maneuver that would put you into 5 seconds of RT then I would expect that you would still remain in 15 seconds of round time (not go up to 30 seconds).
Or, failing the above suggested implementation, that some fraction of the new result would be added as Krakii has suggested.
A similar situation occurs if you disarm a bonded warriors weapon over and over (via warrior disarm reps). The defending warrior can end up being in several minutes worth of RT from the cumulative disarm attempts which flat out doesn't make any logical sense.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
I also have an issue with fully stacking round time.
e.g. If a bandit performs a maneuver that throws you into 10 seconds of round time. Then a 2nd bandit follows up with a maneuver that throws you into 15 seconds or round time. The end result should be that you should be in 15 seconds of round time. Not 25 seconds of round time.
Similarly if a third bandit follows up with a maneuver that would put you into 5 seconds of RT then I would expect that you would still remain in 15 seconds of round time (not go up to 30 seconds).
Or, failing the above suggested implementation, that some fraction of the new result would be added as Krakii has suggested.
A similar situation occurs if you disarm a bonded warriors weapon over and over (via warrior disarm reps). The defending warrior can end up being in several minutes worth of RT from the cumulative disarm attempts which flat out doesn't make any logical sense.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
KRAKII
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 01:38 PM CDT
10s start
15s added
05s added -- Other-Robert's example
I would have NO PROBLEMS with, for example, these three critters taking their actions, if they set to "the worst of these results" (rather than being straight addition, as Other-Robert described).
Creature1 hits me with 10s RT.
Three seconds go by; I am at "7 remaining".
Creature2 hits me with 15s RT, and I "go to 15 remaining". A net of "+8s RT".
Twelve seconds go by, I am at "3 remaining".
Creature3 hits me with 5s RT, and I "go to 5 remaining". A net of "+2s RT".
Do I suffer more through RT being added? Yes.
However, I have to survive through ONLY TWENTY seconds, net, rather than the full 30s that I would be stuck in under the current mechanics.
.
No actual timepieces were hurt in the generation of this example.
15s added
05s added -- Other-Robert's example
I would have NO PROBLEMS with, for example, these three critters taking their actions, if they set to "the worst of these results" (rather than being straight addition, as Other-Robert described).
Creature1 hits me with 10s RT.
Three seconds go by; I am at "7 remaining".
Creature2 hits me with 15s RT, and I "go to 15 remaining". A net of "+8s RT".
Twelve seconds go by, I am at "3 remaining".
Creature3 hits me with 5s RT, and I "go to 5 remaining". A net of "+2s RT".
Do I suffer more through RT being added? Yes.
However, I have to survive through ONLY TWENTY seconds, net, rather than the full 30s that I would be stuck in under the current mechanics.
.
No actual timepieces were hurt in the generation of this example.
DOUG
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/13/2020 07:21 PM CDT
I would support this as well. But. . .
Doesn't this just impose a fungible ceiling and false hope? Getting stacked for 120 seconds of roundtime is not fun - agreed. Gettings stacked 6 times for 20 seconds of roundtime is more not fun, in my view.
Doug
Doesn't this just impose a fungible ceiling and false hope? Getting stacked for 120 seconds of roundtime is not fun - agreed. Gettings stacked 6 times for 20 seconds of roundtime is more not fun, in my view.
Doug
KRAKII
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 08:15 AM CDT
But unless the creatures manage to time it down to the instant, and reliably bang off the +20s when you are at either 0 (having just come out) or 1s-and-waiting-anxiously...
...it would never add up to as much as 120s.
They would have to get you at precisely the 0-moment, five times in a row, to give you 120 net.
Even if the latter 5 all hit you at "1-and-counting" moment, you STILL save. (Sure, it's only 5s faster, but hey. 115 is better than 120.)
But most likely, you'll be out in a minute or so, tops, because you'll see that next "resetting to 20s" when you're down in the 8-15 range, which seems to be when I notice it happening.
And again: if they would choose something OTHER THAN the "add 20s!" action, it would be even less onerous.
...it would never add up to as much as 120s.
They would have to get you at precisely the 0-moment, five times in a row, to give you 120 net.
Even if the latter 5 all hit you at "1-and-counting" moment, you STILL save. (Sure, it's only 5s faster, but hey. 115 is better than 120.)
But most likely, you'll be out in a minute or so, tops, because you'll see that next "resetting to 20s" when you're down in the 8-15 range, which seems to be when I notice it happening.
And again: if they would choose something OTHER THAN the "add 20s!" action, it would be even less onerous.
DOUG
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 10:51 AM CDT
Yeah, I didn't state my position clearly.
The point I wish to impress is one needs a break in the continual creation of roundtime, not just a limit to the roundtime itself. And sometimes, for whatever RNG related reason, those breaks in the creation are just too few and far between. The total numbers themselves do not matter.
Doug
The point I wish to impress is one needs a break in the continual creation of roundtime, not just a limit to the roundtime itself. And sometimes, for whatever RNG related reason, those breaks in the creation are just too few and far between. The total numbers themselves do not matter.
Doug
KRAKII
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 11:53 AM CDT
Totally agree!
I was more focused on addressing the mechanics of how they just keep adding on, but yeah, "doing something else" (from their buffet of available actions) would be nice.
I was more focused on addressing the mechanics of how they just keep adding on, but yeah, "doing something else" (from their buffet of available actions) would be nice.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 01:45 PM CDT
>> The point I wish to impress is one needs a break in the continual creation of roundtime, not just a limit to the roundtime itself. And sometimes, for whatever RNG related reason, those breaks in the creation are just too few and far between.
Isn't that why you bring a friend along (or "guest target" as my wizard used to be) when you do bandits?
While I definitely have issues with the RT directly stacking, I'm not nearly as concerned if your RT break is delayed because five bandits are all taking turns putting "Ginger" the solo bandit hunter into additional RT (based on the completion and normal RT result of their successful maneuver). If you are taking on bandits 5:1 then it seems reasonable that you can expect to run into this situation on a somewhat regular basis.
That said, my experience is that once you get past the initial opening volley of bandit attacks from hiding (and survive), the bandits seem much less likely to continue with pure RT inducing attacks resulting in more opportunities for the adventurer to retaliate in kind. One of my main bandit hunters is a sword and board pally - he kills somewhat slowly but is also fairly immune to being killed by bandits - most of the bandit RT lock scenarios I encounter with him are at the beginning of the encounter when the bandits first coming out of hiding.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
Isn't that why you bring a friend along (or "guest target" as my wizard used to be) when you do bandits?
While I definitely have issues with the RT directly stacking, I'm not nearly as concerned if your RT break is delayed because five bandits are all taking turns putting "Ginger" the solo bandit hunter into additional RT (based on the completion and normal RT result of their successful maneuver). If you are taking on bandits 5:1 then it seems reasonable that you can expect to run into this situation on a somewhat regular basis.
That said, my experience is that once you get past the initial opening volley of bandit attacks from hiding (and survive), the bandits seem much less likely to continue with pure RT inducing attacks resulting in more opportunities for the adventurer to retaliate in kind. One of my main bandit hunters is a sword and board pally - he kills somewhat slowly but is also fairly immune to being killed by bandits - most of the bandit RT lock scenarios I encounter with him are at the beginning of the encounter when the bandits first coming out of hiding.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
DOUG
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 02:36 PM CDT
>>Isn't that why you bring a friend along (or "guest target" as my wizard used to be) when you do bandits?
Absolutely, yes. But then I think it fair to point out that this seems to be an outlier to the 'average gamer mentality'.
Isn't it great to be in the elite?!
Doug
Absolutely, yes. But then I think it fair to point out that this seems to be an outlier to the 'average gamer mentality'.
Isn't it great to be in the elite?!
Doug
KRAKII
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 02:38 PM CDT
I have never encountered a bandit.
(To date I have been added to one other person's bounty once--when I didn't know where they were going--and completed one of my own once [in order to convince the rewards person to give me access to #99/pay with silvers].)
All of my example RT adders are from Reim (since my normal hunting grounds never really added any).
- To some extent, yes, the PC has some control over it: the mini-swarms appear to only generate when you are moving around. Don't move, no swarm.
- However, in order to advance through you have to face a Rare, and those come "now with free RT!" And at least one minion.
If the first action of any of them, in either situation, is to "give you now with more RT!" well then you're borked, as the subject line and subsequent comments have railed at.
(To date I have been added to one other person's bounty once--when I didn't know where they were going--and completed one of my own once [in order to convince the rewards person to give me access to #99/pay with silvers].)
All of my example RT adders are from Reim (since my normal hunting grounds never really added any).
- To some extent, yes, the PC has some control over it: the mini-swarms appear to only generate when you are moving around. Don't move, no swarm.
- However, in order to advance through you have to face a Rare, and those come "now with free RT!" And at least one minion.
If the first action of any of them, in either situation, is to "give you now with more RT!" well then you're borked, as the subject line and subsequent comments have railed at.
DOUG
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 02:57 PM CDT
It does, however, happen with enough frequency in other areas of the game that I wouldn't recommend Reim be the driver of the design.
And, I feel compelled to reiterate, the design has to do with the arms race, not the fact that characters get RT, or have means to get out of RT. Simply put, from my perspective every character must face the possibility of death. There is no struggle, no contest in my view without that facet.
This affects a spectrum of players (soloists to team only players, hardcore through whale) - but ultimately how else can this be 'realized' with spell-tanking occurring and component upgrades currently offered?
Doug
And, I feel compelled to reiterate, the design has to do with the arms race, not the fact that characters get RT, or have means to get out of RT. Simply put, from my perspective every character must face the possibility of death. There is no struggle, no contest in my view without that facet.
This affects a spectrum of players (soloists to team only players, hardcore through whale) - but ultimately how else can this be 'realized' with spell-tanking occurring and component upgrades currently offered?
Doug
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 02:58 PM CDT
Apologies for going down the bandit tangent when you are referring to REIM. I think the same arguments apply though.
I can't speak to how the REIM NPCs behave beyond the initial round of combat (I don't hunt there enough) so if they mostly just push the RT button over and over (even after the initial round) then I would agree that maybe they need some additional / new options in their arsenal for a bit more variety.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
I can't speak to how the REIM NPCs behave beyond the initial round of combat (I don't hunt there enough) so if they mostly just push the RT button over and over (even after the initial round) then I would agree that maybe they need some additional / new options in their arsenal for a bit more variety.
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
LEAFIARA
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 04:00 PM CDT
The Sanctum is a master class in ways to kill just about any profession without having to invoke stacking RT. It has:
-Dispels
-A unique variant of disarm
-Powersink
-Major Elemental Wave
-Sheer number of enemies for Force-on-Force, including summoning more of them or turning enemy corpses into new enemies
-Retaliatory acid, on self-reviving enemies no less
-Other unique enemy maneuvers, including one that can only be used after you've already been hit by one of the other enemy maneuvers (lurk acid -> lurk bite) and inflicts a unique status effect
It does use RT to get all of the above going, but since that RT comes from Tackle, it doesn't stack; while you're down, there are no more Tackles.
It actually has even more tricks than the above too, like gas clouds and webs, but those are more rarely seen. One of the best designed hunting grounds in the game!
(I have similar love for the night mare section of Shadow Valley and the Ilvari section of the Red Forest. Those use dispels, RT (but not really stacking RT), disappearing enemies, gas clouds in the case of Shadow Valley, Major Elemental Wave in the case of the Ilvari, sheer numbers in the case of Shadow Valley, a disarm variant in the case of the Ilvari... lots in common with the Sanctum.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
-Dispels
-A unique variant of disarm
-Powersink
-Major Elemental Wave
-Sheer number of enemies for Force-on-Force, including summoning more of them or turning enemy corpses into new enemies
-Retaliatory acid, on self-reviving enemies no less
-Other unique enemy maneuvers, including one that can only be used after you've already been hit by one of the other enemy maneuvers (lurk acid -> lurk bite) and inflicts a unique status effect
It does use RT to get all of the above going, but since that RT comes from Tackle, it doesn't stack; while you're down, there are no more Tackles.
It actually has even more tricks than the above too, like gas clouds and webs, but those are more rarely seen. One of the best designed hunting grounds in the game!
(I have similar love for the night mare section of Shadow Valley and the Ilvari section of the Red Forest. Those use dispels, RT (but not really stacking RT), disappearing enemies, gas clouds in the case of Shadow Valley, Major Elemental Wave in the case of the Ilvari, sheer numbers in the case of Shadow Valley, a disarm variant in the case of the Ilvari... lots in common with the Sanctum.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
KRAKII
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 04:16 PM CDT
Okay, I confess that my experience in Shadow Valley was using Major Repel--either the spell failed/cost mana (rare due to warding margin), sort-of succeeded and cost no mana (creature runs to another room), or succeeded and cost only 1 mana (killed the creature on >=150 net result)--so my view will be skewed versus what happens now, but "anything with instant-kill" as a possible result made the area a cake-walk.
I may have to wander up there with somebody of the right level and see how they fare now....
I may have to wander up there with somebody of the right level and see how they fare now....
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 04:44 PM CDT
RE: Sanctum post
As a Wizard (my only character that routinely hunts in the Sanctum) I very rarely die in the Sanctum. I did die once recently due to a surprise web when I was attempting to run to a safe location (in combination with 10+ things being in the room while I was webbed).
The majority of my deaths from hunting in the Sanctum (more than 6) occurred after leaving the sanctum due to the delayed disease (I was too busy sorting inventory to notice the disease messaging). I have since highlighted each and every one of the disease messages in an alarming red color and so that I no longer succumb to this insidious mechanic.
This is a very fun area to hunt (one of my favorites) but I definitely do not find it to be significantly more deadly than bandits. Fast paced and exciting, yes. Deadly, not so much.
I think it highlights some of the challenges that the dev teams have for characters that get beyond a certain point in their training. They are somewhat forced into insta-death mechanics (which still do kill me in the Confluence) or hard RT (which as a heavily hasted wizard is mostly mitigated). Neither of which are very fun or satisfying challenges to face as a player.
For my slower characters (e.g. my paladin), I do find the Sanctum a fairly daunting hunting area (at least solo hunting).
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
As a Wizard (my only character that routinely hunts in the Sanctum) I very rarely die in the Sanctum. I did die once recently due to a surprise web when I was attempting to run to a safe location (in combination with 10+ things being in the room while I was webbed).
The majority of my deaths from hunting in the Sanctum (more than 6) occurred after leaving the sanctum due to the delayed disease (I was too busy sorting inventory to notice the disease messaging). I have since highlighted each and every one of the disease messages in an alarming red color and so that I no longer succumb to this insidious mechanic.
This is a very fun area to hunt (one of my favorites) but I definitely do not find it to be significantly more deadly than bandits. Fast paced and exciting, yes. Deadly, not so much.
I think it highlights some of the challenges that the dev teams have for characters that get beyond a certain point in their training. They are somewhat forced into insta-death mechanics (which still do kill me in the Confluence) or hard RT (which as a heavily hasted wizard is mostly mitigated). Neither of which are very fun or satisfying challenges to face as a player.
For my slower characters (e.g. my paladin), I do find the Sanctum a fairly daunting hunting area (at least solo hunting).
-- Robert
>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.
LEAFIARA
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/14/2020 05:37 PM CDT
Wizards (and to a lesser extent bards) are the reason I had to qualify the Sanctum as killing just about any profession. ;)
Like I said, downward death spirals in the Sanctum tend to start with RT from a monstrosity tackle. Haste with a lot of Air lore basically negates even that.
Like I said, downward death spirals in the Sanctum tend to start with RT from a monstrosity tackle. Haste with a lot of Air lore basically negates even that.
LUXELLE
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/15/2020 01:16 AM CDT
>It does use RT to get all of the above going, but since that RT comes from Tackle, it doesn't stack; while you're down, there are no more Tackles.
Maybe I am reading that wrong, but the Sanctum is the place where I have experienced Death by Endless RT Stacking several times.
Once I am RT-locked, there is nothing that I can do. Rally will not work, symbol of transcendence wears off before the holy run-on stacked RT wears off.
~L
---
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LAWRONIUS
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/15/2020 12:42 PM CDT
I agree with the topic of this post, cumulative stacking RT is not a fun mechanic. Being locked out of doing anything in the game while RT continues to stack and stack is a frustrating experience.
I'd suggest making it so that any new RT overwrites the previous RT, if it is of a longer duration than what is currently active. So if you get hit by a 20 second war cry, and then 10 seconds later you get hit with another one, it should just be a 20 RT.
Otherwise do away with 20, or 25 second war cries on critters. Such an excessively not-fun mechanic. Especially when they spam them over and over again.
I'd suggest making it so that any new RT overwrites the previous RT, if it is of a longer duration than what is currently active. So if you get hit by a 20 second war cry, and then 10 seconds later you get hit with another one, it should just be a 20 RT.
Otherwise do away with 20, or 25 second war cries on critters. Such an excessively not-fun mechanic. Especially when they spam them over and over again.
TANDL
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/15/2020 10:27 PM CDT
Feign is also used in the sanctum by sentinels.
LEAFIARA
Re: Okay, enough with the cumulative RT...
05/16/2020 02:52 AM CDT
Oh, fair enough. I forgot about Feint because sentinels have to open roll to get any serious RT onto someone with 5 ranks of Feint for defense, but Luxie's a pure bard and wouldn't have that, I take it.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
