WAYLAY, a new attack verb has been released. It's a new combat technique for ambushers. For waylay, you must be hidden, then use the WAYLAY verb to attack your target. It effectively acts the same as a hidden AMBUSH, except instead of bonus critical weighting, it's bonus damage weighting. The bonus amount is equal to (DEX bonus + (Ambush skill bonus / 2)), subject to the end roll result of the attack. 100% of the calculated bonus is applied if the end result is at 250, then ±1% for every 2 points below/above 250, capped at ±100%. The bonus damage is subject to randomization and stacks with normal weapon properties (such as additional critical or damage weighting). The attack can be aimed, but if you aim and miss the location, you only get half of the normal bonus, like with a normal ambush. It's open to any profession, but since you must be hidden to use it and the damage bonus is based upon ambush skill, it's mainly intended for rogues, warriors, and rangers who use melee weapons. Hopefully, this will make for a useful tool against crit resistant/immune targets such as elementals, non-corporeal undead, and boss creatures. Enjoy!

Special thanks to GameMasters Naijin and Meraki who assisted with the number of updates required to implement this as a new attack verb.

GameMaster Estild

This is one I'll have to experiment with at some point before I decide what to think of it.

On one hand, it'll be nice to have a more effective way for my ranger to tackle critters immune to death crits then 616... but on the other hand, such critters usually have very high HP and their DS is also usually high enough that getting a high enough endroll to make the attach worth-while might be too difficult. Not to mention those that utilize spells like 712 that still won't be worth attacking...

I can see it being useful against flesh golems and a few others that are fairly easily disabled, but most others.... well, I'll have to try it when I get to swordsmen...


<It's open to any profession, but since you must be hidden to use it and the damage bonus is based upon ambush skill, it's mainly intended for rogues, warriors, and rangers who use melee weapons.>

Warriors hide?

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Does this apply to: twc, hurl, uac, or ranged?

>wayl const
You step out of hiding to waylay a greater construct!
You swing a timeworn mithril trailknife at a greater construct!
AS: +533 vs DS: +321 with AvD: -15 + d100 roll: +64 = +261
... and hit for 200 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the right leg.
The shimmering gold aura surrounding the greater construct fades and goes out.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

>waylay band
You step out of hiding to waylay a half-elven bandit!
You swing a timeworn mithril trailknife at a half-elven bandit!
AS: +523 vs DS: +286 with AvD: +3 + d100 roll: +9 = +249
... and hit for 169 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the left arm.

[You have 5 kills remaining.]
The half-elven bandit falls to the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

I am enjoying this mechanic... a lot.

Looks interesting...looking forward to trying it out on the ranger and rogue!

~Heathyr

Used against a player character this will one-shot just about anyone, right? I like the intention but it doesn't feel right. The massive health boosts given to bosses/bandits/etc. really needs to be looked at. This sorta fixes the issue with ambushers in the arena but I suspect it's going to create other problems.

Second Krakii's request on having it work from the open and Rolfard's questions regard to hurling etc. :) Otherwise, nice addition.

At any given time, you might want a specific tool. Maybe a group hunter does NOT want to be mstriking and killing it in one swing, or berserking away from the others. Maybe he just wants to lay down a big chunk of HP damage and call it done for that swing.

My point was that "here we have a set of mechanics and formulae that give crit weighting, based on these skills, and they work both from Hiding and from the open."

Along comes this new verb to give "a set of mechanics and formulae that gives damage weighting, based on <oddly enough, EXACTLY the same skills>..." and wouldn't it be nice to work both from Hiding and from the open?

What's the harm?

.

Oh, and "open ambushing" an oxymoron, like "thunderous silence."
I'm still trying to get people trained around to calling them "aimed swings", particularly since it SAVES you a whole two keystrokes [!!!!] every time you type it...
(Although honesty compels me to say that "open ambush" and "aimed swing" are in fact exactly the same keycount.)

No, because bolt spells currently do not benefit from Ambush training.
Weapon attacks do benefit (for aiming) BOTH from hiding AND from the open, with both sets of skills .
Many attrition fighters do not hide.
Doing this would help them.

.

.

Bolt spells are a totally different set of problems, ranging from "cannot aim where they land" (probably their biggest issue) to "running out of mana".

I'm talking about taking an existing system with exactly the same skill mechanics and letting this new one benefit the non-hiders, too.

I didn't say anything about Warriors, and the original announcement didn't say anything about Rogues.
(It specifically said "ambushers", so all those Rangers using Camo will be liking on it too. Like "the first responding person who mentioned a profession", for example.)

My Thief--back when they were still called Thieves--started as melee for the first 10-15 levels simply because neither hiding nor ambush was all that good yet (not too much skill)... and with my suggested change, he'd still be able to get the damage boost.

.

This isn't about Warriors. It's about "all melee"/open swingers. Paladins. Rangers who don't Camo. Using the 'waylay' verb when not-hidden, in the same way that 'ambush' verb is used when not-hidden.

I get it, you don't want to buff that side.

How about "waylay when not-hidden works ONLY on crit-padded/death-crit-immune creatures"? So it would still help that side with things like DR Champions.

And my request was to add the damage weighting to open swings since they already had a system built to use skills with the verb. (Ambush when hidden [Skill X], Ambush when not [Skill Y]. Waylay when hidden [Skill X]... Waylay when not?)

Because there ARE creatures where "hitting this spot" doesn't gain you what it does other times. (See also uncrittable creatures. The specific application I thought of happened to be DR Champions, but there are others.)

Rangers can't Berserk, what if they're in the open (ran out of mana to Camo)? Paladins don't even have Camo, so they're in the open. Warriors might not hide--or be out of stamina so no MStrike--so they're in the open.

Even Rogues may be using it from the open, because there are times you do NOT want the most lethal hit you can lay down. Group hunting springs to mind.

Let's change up the dialog a bit, then. Forego WAYLAY as an open attack.

Instead, let's have us a POWERSTRIKE which has the ability to overwhelm defenses by a significant margin and ignores armor divisors for crit calculations. Usable by any melee weapon user with appropriate tanks in ambush (need to be able to strike a target's weak armor areas, after all), removes all benefits from shield / armor, and causes 2x to 3x damage, with a critical floor of 4 ranks.

Done.

Doug

[taable]

Because this design was intended to buff rogues, not to be 'another tool in the warrior's kit'.
-BREAUX1
[/table]

Do you seriously think that only warriors would gain from Krakii's suggested change/tweak?

J

As much as I would love an open version of this attack I love it even more as the intended suprise attack. Anything buffing the ambushing hunting style is good in my book and the Devs took a good approach here. Most of the classes that dont get immediate use out of Waylay already have other strong options to consider

A few screenshots in the confluence.

You step out of hiding to waylay a huge steam elemental!
You swing an incredibly vicious sacred sparte at a huge steam elemental!
AS: +522 vs DS: +239 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +24 = +343
... and hit for 239 points of damage!
Suddenly, your vicious sacred sparte glows with a fiery red light and becomes hot to the touch!
You swing an incredibly vicious sacred sparte at a huge steam elemental!
AS: +522 vs DS: +222 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +2 = +338
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
You sense a surge of essence being dragged from the elemental, only to dissipate as your multicolored soulstone overflows with power.
The steam elemental dissipates into a warm breeze that fades rapidly away.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a huge steam elemental.
The bright luminescence fades from around a huge steam elemental.
A huge steam elemental appears somehow different.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a huge steam elemental.
A huge steam elemental glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a huge steam elemental.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

You step out of hiding to waylay a huge fire elemental!
You swing an engraved veil iron flail at a huge fire elemental!
AS: +602 vs DS: +245 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +8 = +409
... and hit for 450 points of damage!
You sense a surge of essence being dragged from the elemental, only to dissipate as your multicolored soulstone overflows with power.

[You have 9 kills remaining.]
The fire elemental sputters violently, cascading flames all around as it collapses in a final fiery display.
As the last of the fire elemental disappears, a crystal of silvery wraithaline appears in its place.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
The bright luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
A huge fire elemental appears somehow different.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
A huge fire elemental glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a huge fire elemental.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

You step out of hiding to waylay a huge fire elemental!
You swing an engraved veil iron flail at a huge fire elemental!
A huge fire elemental's exterior hardens for a moment and softens the attack!
AS: +602 vs DS: +250 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +46 = +442
... and hit for 426 points of damage!
You sense a surge of essence being dragged from the elemental, only to dissipate as your multicolored soulstone overflows with power.

[You have 10 kills remaining.]
The fire elemental sputters violently, cascading flames all around as it collapses in a final fiery display.
It left some essence of fire behind.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
The bright luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
A huge fire elemental appears somehow different.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
A huge fire elemental glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a huge fire elemental.
Roundtime: 6 sec

You step out of hiding to waylay a huge fire elemental!
You swing an onyx-hafted golvern battle axe at a huge fire elemental!
AS: +527 vs DS: +233 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +52 = +387
... and hit for 304 points of damage!
You sense a surge of essence being dragged from the elemental, only to dissipate as your multicolored soulstone overflows with power.

[You have 11 kills remaining.]
The fire elemental sputters violently, cascading flames all around as it collapses in a final fiery display.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
The bright luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
A huge fire elemental appears somehow different.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a huge fire elemental.
A huge fire elemental glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a huge fire elemental.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

Contemplar, I know that the Ambush verb when in the open only works to direct the swing to a specific body part (hence, "aimed swings").
However, the mechanics of the verb exist in two parts: one from hiding [uses skill: Ambush training] and one not-from-hiding [uses skill: Combat Maneuvers]. When you issue the verb, the performance of it does exactly the same thing.

The mechanics of the verb "waylay" currently exist only in one part: from hiding, using the skill: Ambush training.
(And it may or may not also make use of the specified 'aim' location in addition; since Starchitin says that he had an 'aim' point set I'm guessing it does, but since it's adding damage weighting instead of crit that doesn't really mean a whole lot.)

My request was to add the mechanics of "use this verb from the open to add damage weighting, using skill: Combat Maneuvers." This is an EXACT parallel to how "Ambush" works. One uses this skill, one uses that. One is hidden, one is not. One aims at a body part, the other aims at a body part. One adds damage weighting, the other... currently does not, hence my request.

Simply because there ARE people who "just stand in the open and dish out & take it." (Some times that is voluntary, some times not, but that's a separate issue.)
And they tend to suck against crit padding or crit-immune [DR Champions], so damage weighting would be a good add for them.

>Contemplar, I know that the Ambush verb when in the open only works to direct the swing to a specific body part (hence, "aimed swings"). However, the mechanics of the verb exist in two parts: one from hiding [uses skill: Ambush training] and one not-from-hiding [uses skill: Combat Maneuvers]. When you issue the verb, the performance of it does exactly the same thing.

The mechanics of the verb "waylay" currently exist only in one part: from hiding, using the skill: Ambush training. (And it may or may not also make use of the specified 'aim' location in addition; since Starchitin says that he had an 'aim' point set I'm guessing it does, but since it's adding damage weighting instead of crit that doesn't really mean a whole lot.)

>My request was to add the mechanics of "use this verb from the open to add damage weighting, using skill: Combat Maneuvers." This is an EXACT parallel to how "Ambush" works. One uses this skill, one uses that. One is hidden, one is not. One aims at a body part, the other aims at a body part. One adds damage weighting, the other... currently does not, hence my request.

>Simply because there ARE people who "just stand in the open and dish out & take it." (Some times that is voluntary, some times not, but that's a separate issue.) And they tend to suck against crit padding or crit-immune [DR Champions], so damage weighting would be a good add for them.

---

Ambush from hiding is not the exactly same thing as from the "open." Ambushing from the "open" does not grant any additional critical damage beyond that of a normal attack. I understand what you are saying, but you are not understanding what I am saying. That is "ambush from hiding" is not the same as "ambush from the open" regardless if the verb used is the same. Ambush from hiding also grants additional critical damage, whereas from the open there is none.

If anything ATTACK should be able to target a body location using Combat Maneuver skill just like AMBUSH. I think the confusion here is that ambush from the open is not really an ambush at all. The ambush verb was just hijacked to be able to allow aimed shots and add additional 1s round time.

Waylay doesn't have an "open" version of it because it is purely an ambushing attack. I am not sure how one could waylay someone from the open when they are clearly visible and the target is not surprised.

Now Doug seemed to have the right idea by suggesting yet another verb like POWERSTRIKE, or whatever, that may utilize the CM skill for extra concussion damage at the expense of critical damage. However, what would be the cost for such an attack type? Additional RT? Stamina costs? Both?

~Contemplar~

Agreed, no weighting when not hidden.
But "skill makes target" and "skill makes target" (using different skills for different "can I be seen") == works the same damn way. Ambush/hidden == hit target; CM/visible == hit target. Same.

And I agree that the verb was hijacked. It was long enough ago, Cyper probably didn't want to monkey around with creating another activator to do exactly the same thing that <this verb over here I just spent all this time coding> did, so he used different parameters. I'm sure standards of "how things are done in GSL" has changed a LOT since then.

I confess to similar laziness (just like that last paragraph) in saying, "Fine, take this mechanic and do exactly the same thing [add damage weighting] use that same combination of skills / status [CM/open, Ambush/hidden] (just like the first paragraph) and give the same benefit [add damage weighting]."

And I'm okay with it being an entirely different verb, too, but... see second paragraph about "reinventing the wheel." Notice I didn't re-type it all, because I didn't feel like, uhh... reinventing the wheel.

.

.

"Cost"?

How about, opportunity cost (for "other things"), having spent those points to get the CM in the first place? So they do NOT have (choose from:) spell research, items, scrolls, more Armor, Shield ranks, or--I don't know--Hiding ranks, to take advantage of this neat new verb?

More screenshots.

You remove an onyx-hafted golvern battle axe from in your weapon harness.
>
You step out of hiding to waylay a spectral triton defender!
You swing an onyx-hafted golvern battle axe at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +540 vs DS: +291 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +91 = +372
... and hit for 349 points of damage!
A strong blow bursts the right calf open in a spray of vapor.
New muscle erupts from the middle of the wound, consuming the injured tissue.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the triton defender's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The spectral form of the triton defender tenses in agony as she begins to dissolve from the bottom up!
Roundtime: 6 sec.

You step out of hiding to waylay an ethereal triton sentry!
You swing an onyx-hafted golvern battle axe at an ethereal triton sentry!
AS: +540 vs DS: +404 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +85 = +257
... and hit for 289 points of damage!
Massive strike to the chest crashes through the triton sentry's back in a cloud of vapor.
Slowly, the triton sentry reforms its torso.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the triton sentry's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The triton sentry emits a hollow scream as ribbons of essence begin to wend away from her and into nothingness!
The bright luminescence fades from around an ethereal triton sentry.
The deep blue glow leaves an ethereal triton sentry.
A shadow seems to detach itself from an ethereal triton sentry, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around an ethereal triton sentry.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an ethereal triton sentry.
An ethereal triton sentry glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The light blue glow leaves an ethereal triton sentry.
Roundtime: 6 sec

Works well with Sentry and Defender.

>> Well, let's UN-hijack it. Is there a better verb we could use as a shortcut for open aimed attacks than ambush?

Honestly I don't see any real value in trying to change open AMBUSH to a new verb at this time. It will create more problems than it will solve (given the only problem we appear to be solving for in the current implementation is Krakii's concern over the current verb use in this forum thread).

It sounds like the Dev team might be interested in implementing some sort of (not free of cost) POWERSTRIKE. Why not focus some suggestions there if you are interested in getting something put in place along these lines?

My thinking is that you could hijack and make a few tweaks to the quick strike cost mechanics resulting in more power to your swing vs. a faster swing. PSTRIKE and QSTRIKE.

-- Robert

>channel my maul
You channel at a hefty mithril maul.
You make an astoundingly inept attempt! Success!