Is anyone able to explain how additional shield use training factors into the Shield bash attack roll and result?

When using Shield Bash against the same target, the difference between the Roll Result and the Roll for my paladin varied anywhere between 149 and 179 and weirdly / interestingly? I saw some of the larger differences when I removed the 13 points of Shield Use bonus enhancives I was wearing.

I was expecting Shield Bash to work similarly to Combat Maneuvers where each rank of training added to your result.

While I understand that additional Shield Use training (via enhancives, Ascension, etc.) will improve my block percentage and DS, how does this factor into Shield Bash results?

-- Robert

>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.

<Basically they boil down to the old single-frame comic of the professor at the blackboard, "Step 1 Data, Step 2 'and then a miracle happens', Step 3 result.">

Hehehe.... SMR was coded by the underpants gnomes....

Starchitin, the OG

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Maneuvers are also hugely impacted by the level of your foe. Since critter levels can vary, your results can too.

>> <Basically they boil down to the old single-frame comic of the professor at the blackboard, "Step 1 Data, Step 2 'and then a miracle happens', Step 3 result.">

As a totally unrelated aside to this topic, I had a math professor that would do this very thing. He would solve the problem to a certain point and then he would assume the rest was trivial and would put QED instead of solving the problem to its conclusion. When it came exam time, there was a question on the exam that I was able to take down to a certain point and then did not know how to solve completely. I simply put QED at that point on my solution and the professor gave me full credit for the answer.

Sadly, while I got full credit on the exam and for the course, I did not actually learn how to solve that problem. :p
Fortunately, I am not required to know how to do any of this for my chosen career path!

-- Robert

>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.

Kerl, your post sparked a curiosity for me. Could there be an Elite/Legendary Ascension skill that "gave you an extra level" only for purposes of a specific combat maneuver or shield skill?

Heh. Gillien and I are thinking along the same lines.

Avaia, player of

It is already possible to be considered to have +5 spells in a list.
(Recent HESS item.)

It should also be possible to be considered to have +X "ranks" in a CMan.
(See someone's recent posit of "1x in PF ranks == 5 ranks in Cunning Defense == 1 rank in CManX" for comparative power of training for defense against CManX.)

Hell, I'm even fine with them having the same progressive costs as the actual CMan (for example, "2 3 4 5 6" Ascension points for a Square's five-rank CMan), but with a pre-requisite of "you must already have all normal ranks."
(So no getting rank1 through CMan, and Ascension rank1, then back for rank2 CMan, and rank2 Ascension, et cetera.)

>My initial (and incorrect) assumption was that an additional 30 ranks in Shield Use should put me on par with a level 115 creates (since if I could train to level 115 that would be my max trained shield use skill at that level)

CMan defence not only is strongly level dependent, there's a level^2 term, so by the time you get to the point where critters have enough levels on you to make things difficult, success rate drops very fast as the difference increases and there's nothing you can do to counteract it by way of boosting offense.

It's all in the hidden stuff they don't tell us. Just like SMRv2.

We know some basics. In the end, the results we can't see are what bite us in the ass.

Creature size, race, skills, stats, stance, armor, shield and most importantly level. Any like level creature or down is ideal. They squish easier just because they're like level or under. Add a couple levels and your chances to squish them diminish rapidly.

Unless you have a way to bolster your level, extra ranks really aren't going to add up to much in the end. Level is biggest deciding factor.

I like how a level 97 creature mostly melts with 917 against my capped wizard.
A level 98 creature takes decent crits, generally dies with ease.
A level 99 creature doesn't crit as easy, but can usually die within one cast of 917.
Like level creature at 100, you need decent rolls to get those nice crits, I'd say 60-70% die from one cast of 917.
Level 101 creature, you need those decent rolls for crits and I'd say around 50-60% die in one cast.
Level 102 creature, crits are starting to become less and less noticeable without high rolls and generally only 40-50% die in one cast.
Level 103 creature, crits start to vanish without high rolls and maybe 15-20% die with one cast.
Level 104+ creatures, without them high crits (which require much higher endroll results) you're just kind of plinking them to death and 2-5 casts of 917 are needed.

Even if I were to take my Wizard spells from 100 to 200 (this would add +50 to my base SMRv2 casting power [+.5 every wizard rank over your level]), the extra casting power doesn't increase the crit power. It just offers a chance to hit higher rolls to achieve a possible better crit. If I still end up with a 120 endroll, that crit cycle is going to suck on those creatures 4+ levels over me.

>> Robert - if you want to be king of shield using definitely switch away from shield bash and go to shield charge. That ability is hands down much better/more effective than bash.

Thanks, I think I will give this a try for fun (understanding this won't impact my new AP training direction or help me with creatures above my pay grade). I've always avoided training in this in the past due to the potential downsides with a bad roll. But my pally play is getting a bit stale so it is time to mix things up a bit for him anyway - even some spectacularly bad results will potentially create some additional fun factor. :-)

Good news is that he has a fixskill available presently and if I totally mess up I can always fix him after the pally review. I'll work on his new training plan tonight and give it a whirl!

-- Robert

>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.

>> I can't speak for bash or charge, but trample is awesome if it's an option. Knocking down 5 targets in one wack is the crowd control skill that this warrior always wanted.

This maneuver isn't available for paladin consumption. I did have a Hardcore Shield warrior at one time but he died before he was able to learn this skill (my other two non-HC warriors are shieldless and likely always will be).

-- Robert

>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.

> Maybe this will get some love from the upcoming CMAN review (though I don't know if shield manuevers will be included as well or not).

All maneuvers are being standardized for consistent roundtime/stamina, and almost every maneuver is having a reduction of both. The preliminary numbers can be found in the document below, and are available for testing on the test instance.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dCO29-d5ILQ_SiX12dYjTwHR0OBi_Jb2mbZcjIgcbV8/edit#gid=438819235

I agree with Kerl.

Specifically, the TRAINED skills' effect should be the strongest factor when levels are +/- ten (that's "10", or "anything you can get experience from/could get experience from you").

This business of "You're capped, aren't you special now! You'll do so-so against 102, and be completely useless against/helpless versus 103 or higher!" is crap. "But you can clean the floor with a 97th level creature!" Yeah, but we're nowhere NEAR where a 97th level creature happens to be. <snort>

When any profession can learn any spell class.

Skills? Yes. CM is CM, and Spell Research is spell research.

"Usable features"? No.

Now, I totally agree that Sorcerers probably have more spells than most Warriors have CMans, ShieldMans, and Armor buffs, but... yeah, there's a lot of times I fail to hit a target with a Warding spell, but there's a whole bunch of like-leveled creatures that have like an 80% chance to hit me with their maneuvers.

.

I think that any skill (CMan or ShieldMan) which is used a pre-requisite, should be open to essentially all professions. The difficulty of training it is a factor of the increased costs for non-Squares, and how expensive the ranks are, and how comparatively few of them the character can get.

Then the more advanced skills--that use those pre-requisites that you now know--that's where the class-specific benefits come in.

>I still need to play around with shield charge a bit more to get a better feel for it. I'm somewhat turned off by the 7 second RT for this maneuver. The stuns, etc. seem better and >longer but not significantly so vs. shield bash. If its not going to kill something or keep it occupied for more than 1-2 rounds then this setup manuever should definitely be faster >that it currently is. Maybe this will get some love from the upcoming CMAN review (though I don't know if shield manuevers will be included as well or not). -Robert

The reason I suggested shield charge was because of the upcoming CMAN review. It becomes quite a bit faster, taking less stamina, and in my testing much, much more likely to actually achieve the goal that the maneuver was designed for; knocking things down. I can't tell you how many times I've had shield bashes hit for the end roll of 150+ and still the creatures are standing.

Shield charge doesn't seem to have that issue and when you succeed you really succeed.

I reviewed the document that GS4-NAIJIN was kind enough to share the link for and did note the improved RT for Shield Charge! Also agree that Shield Bash still has a place as well (specifically looking at Shield Strike). With the upcoming changes it may well be that I keep both of these maneuvers in place of some of the other items that I had to drop. I'll have time to do more testing over the upcoming weekend.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions and input!

-- Robert

>> A halfling magistrate picks up a small rock and throws it at a half-elven bandit in a valiant effort to subdue him.

<Perhaps with that logic we should restrict any squares from being able to cast spells. Sure, they can learn (spend TPs) spell ranks, but they're too stupid to actually be able to cast them.....I mean, they are squares and should only excel at physical things regardless of how or what skills they train in.>

I think you mean your ability to learn CM, Shield, Armor Use ranks. Consider those ranks and the benefits you obtain from them a "minor" circle and the enhanced benefits of the newer systems a profession level circle (and even some of those are available to semis and pures at a cost).

And frankly, I don't think squares are that very good at all at what they should dominate, maneuvers. Their expected training helps with SMANs but CMAN are too reliant on the specific cman having ranks learned.

<So a class that can train in shield use is too stupid to know how to strike with it (shield bash)?>

Yes. Just like I can't implode (nor want to).

<You won't see some semi running around and having all the best skills you can train in for shield skills....sure, they may excel at one (or two) and dabble in a couple others. Squares would still dominate here and have access to all the skills. Pures and semis would only have access to some...like CMANs. Everyone has a few they can train in.>


If I don't know the cman, I get hit. If I do, I may still get hit (open rolls). Pures that max a cman already somehow can't be reliably touched by guildmasters or at least have an around 10% chance. That list is growing all the time yet professions ask for more and more. I'm not ok with opening it up more unless the entire paradigm is changed and all abilities are open to all, which I doubt will happen.

While I do think all classes should be able to learn basic shield skills in some way, training in shield use does not automatically translate to using your shield offensively while defending. This skill solely represents the ability to better defend yourself with a shield which all classes benefit from. Martial classes getting additional benefits in the form of shield specialization points I agree with to represent their superiority with martial equipment (should apply to weapons, too) over other classes training the skill. The spell list system and Cman/Shield system are entirely different so it is hard to compare restrictions of both. However, I can say with certainty that any semi or pure class that does not currently have access to any one shield spec or cman already has other options or tactics that are either directly or indirectly superior. Moreover, those abilities are often gained just by learning their core spells and not having to outright restrict learning other abilities like Cmans/shield skills.

Overall, in their current state giving access to the basic shield skills would not be a power increase for anyone but would boost defense against an intended weaknesses. As such, I think the CMAN system would be the best use of this since there are opportunity costs and/or high training point requirements. However, the CMAN costs for pures/semis could be reassessed if restrictions to the higher tier abilities stay locked to the martial classes. I would like a similar easing of restrictions for squares learning magical skills, though.

>>If basic shield skills can't be learned by any class that has the ability to train in shield use, what is point in allowing them access to the skill?

A square can train in Spell Research, but they'll never be able to cast Calm, one of the most basic spells in the game.

Just because you can train in a skill, doesn't mean you get complete access to all benefits of that skill, even the simple ones.

Viduus