I've been meaning to make this post for awhile. I mentioned the idea at Simucon, but the two guys who would probably have the most to say about it (Hi Kenstrom! Hi Auchand!) weren't there!

There have been a lot of instances in storylines and plots lately where bad people were captured, or were at least supposed to be captured. This, of course, leads to discussions about the process of justice. There's often debate about whether or not someone will get a "fair trial" and what not.

So my question is this:

What is considered normal and fair in the Empire and surrounding territories? When someone is arrested, what should they expect? What is the "standard" process of justice? When someone gets a "fair trial" - what does that look like?

Sometimes, I think when we have these debates that get into the territory of ethics (as seen when debating the ethics of warfare during CiS), sometimes I think we let modern sensibilities encroach a bit into a quasi-medieval/renaissance world where what's "normal" and "right" might be a bit uglier than what we in the modern world think is right. Thus, the question.

(This isn't claiming that a fair trial is a new moral concept, by any means. This stuff was in the Magna Carta, afterall. However, a fair trial in 15th century England, for example, did not look much like a fair trial in 2015 USA.)

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

<<What is considered normal and fair in the Empire and surrounding territories? When someone is arrested, what should they expect? What is the "standard" process of justice? When someone gets a "fair trial" - what does that look like?

I'm neither of the two excellent dudes, but I'll throw my own cents into the arena!

Justice has remained a rather elusive topic in not just human lore, but virtually all the races. For this question, though, this is my best idea of how it would work. First, we have to agree that there is a uniform legal code for the Empire through at least the Rysus Codex, which was put into effect back in 4694. I'd wager it was based somewhat on the Codex Justinianus, which, in itself ranks among one of the top legal achievements of the Byzantine Empire, as it brought together and organized all past laws, rulings, etc, and created a uniform code of law. Back from that tangent, the Rysus Codex definitely applies in every province, but to what extent is questionable - as similar to Magna Carta, it's more concerned with the upper class than the lower.

Then there's this:

<<Emperors tend to leave the interpretation of this aspect of the Rysus Codex to the individual leaders for their own territories. Naturally, races tend to migrate to territories that are less restrictive.

This applies to the interpretation of "men" and their rights, and generally runs in line with the enforcement of Chaston's Edict. More so, it also reveals that at least some parts of the Codex are interpreted and enforced differently in different parts of the empire. So we have a uniform code of laws, but they may not be uniformly be applied or understood.

All right, so there we have that.

Then we also have another legal jurisdiction noted in Worship in the Empire:

<<It is by the order of the Imperial Throne, since the time of Emperor Rallick Anodheles, that every provisional capital possess such a home for the Church and her priests. It is at these temples that law is given and justice sought. It is true that the power of justice does rest with the rulers, the barons, the earls, and the counts, and so their laws often have their own courts. However, it is a law of the Church, which provides the last refuge for those who cannot find justice elsewhere. They are judgments made by the Prelates, those chosen by the Patriarch to be his extension beyond the center of the Empire. Because the Patriarch grants them his power, they can rule with his wisdom. It is true, one must lament, that the farther away from Tamzyrr one travels, the less power of the Prelate, but it is a momentary concern. The power of the Church grows ever and always. Beneath the Prelates are the First and Second Watchers, who govern the smaller churches, and who at times travel to spread Koar's justice and his will.

Yep, them there are ecclesiastical courts, but this also mentions that each province has its own court 'system,' too. So in the Empire, we have two court systems, with the implication that the court of last refuge is overseen by the Church of Koar (granted, also, the extent to which those courts have actual power appears to relate to how powerful the Church of Koar is in said province). Historically, those courts generally had a jurisdiction concerning religious or spiritual matters, so one may not go to them because a neighbor killed a pig. I would also surmise, given that their power is limited by how respected/powerful the Church is in any given province, that their power exists at the will of the ruling provincial leader. So those courts would not be a place to appeal the decision of the courts under said earls, dukes, barons, and counts. More likely a place to go if those courts do not deign to listen to your problems.

So we have an Imperial legal code that is applied on a provincial basis in courts underneath the provincial leader with ecclesiastical courts kind of on the side for when the first courts tell the petitioner, "DON'T WASTE OUR TIME." But justice, hrm. Magna Carta came into being in 1215, reissued repeatedly over the following decades, to enshrine rights that the elites wanted the king's word on upholding. Among them was the right of a trial by jury, for example, so this is an ancient and in-genre idea that can be applied in Elanthia. In River's Rest, during the Casler Huntington Saga, a killer was deemed guilty by a captain of the Royal Torren Guard, but the penalty of life or death was given over to the townspeople to vote upon (they chose death!). Along those terms, at least in Torre, it would seem that a jury system (of sorts) is in existence.

Another example of a "trial" in the documents can be found with regard to a sect of the Order of Voln, the Shield and Sickle:

<<While Grandmasters are by no means required to adhere to the wishes of the Shield and the Sickle, they often give great weight to their words and allow them free action. Likewise, those of the Shield and the Sickle rarely make accusations they do not firmly believe correct. In the event of such a charge, often a trial is held by which the Grandmaster of the nearest monastery assumes the role of judge, while a Precept argues the case for expulsion from the Order.

In this instance, we have a judge played by the Grandmaster and a member of the Shield and Sickle serves as a prosecutor. Implicitly, the person who is charged, most likely has a chance to defend themselves or have someone do so for them. Incidentally, the Shield and the Sickle originated from Fairport, Torre.

Historically, the monarch of a kingdom is the last step of appeal of a process that might have only one step below (the court of the local leader). In our case, I see the Emperor being the appeal of last resort, at least for nobility. King John, incidentally, had a penchant for traveling around his kingdom (when he wasn't taxing the crud out of his people) and sitting in on small trials to provide the royal judgment. I don't think that happens in our world. In the Roman Empire, appeals and judgments of the Emperor were possible, so that reinforces my idea that it could happen in our empire (incidentally, the Papacy in a bid for legitimacy among the other great sees, collected these early rulings and then issued their own in similar style). Local elites also benefited from juries of their peers, and witnesses would often be called in concerning disputes (usually over property). It really depends on much we want to borrow from the English legal system versus the legal systems of other kingdoms/empires of the time period.

So the Emperor is the arbiter between nobles and problems involving nobles. Do we have juries? It's possible and wouldn't be out of genre, but to what extent it's unknown. One would assume that for capital crimes, juries would make sense on a local scale, such as in a village deciding on the fate of a murderer in their midsts, but perhaps for criminals, a local magistrate (such as the Landing and the Rest have) issue out justice without a jury. (Technically, those guys also issue death sentences, too!) There could be lawyers, a profession that was well established by the time Shakespeare was cracking lawyer jokes, and Rome had citizens who were known to serve in similar capacities (a number of our famous Romans did this to make money and earn fame and notoriety). We have the educational system to develop them in Nydds, for example, and thus, in the larger population centers, there could be a small community to support it in legal disputes.

In brief, there's a quasi-uniform system of law throughout the Empire, more practical to the wealthy than to the poor, and a system of courts in existence through which legal concerns, civil, criminal or religious, are addressed in. Juries might exist and kind of do in some places, but there's no real documentation on them. One can appeal decisions, but who is privileged to that appeal probably depends on who their parents are when they were born, and all appeals ultimately end with the Emperor (if they are allowed to make it that far and that includes possibly even appeals from the Church of Koar courts - as the Emperor has precedence over the Church). The stability of a kingdom rests quite a bit on the trust its citizens have in the legal system, so it behooves those in power to see that a system at least appears fair. The guilty are punished, the innocent are freed and rewarded, and it's reliable so far as it behaves the way everyone expects it to, for good or bad.

Them there is some of my thoughts.



GM Scribes

>I've been meaning to make this post for awhile. I mentioned the idea at Simucon, but the two guys who would probably have the most to say about it (Hi Kenstrom! Hi Auchand!) weren't there!

Payback for Comic Con.

>What is considered normal and fair in the Empire and surrounding territories? When someone is arrested, what should they expect? What is the "standard" process of justice? When someone gets a "fair trial" - what does that look like?

You should obviously look to Sr. Kenstrom for an absolutely official answer here, but my opinion is that Imperial "justice" is not especially just. While Turamzzyr clearly doesn't exist on a pure feudal system, it does bear some resemblance on its lowest levels to feudal Europe, where local lords and ladies are generally the beginning and end of the law on their lands, provided that the peasantry lacks the resources or the wherewithal to escalate matters to higher notice. Some territories boast their own specialized magistrates or judges, who are likely to be related to or at least beholden to the local lord or lady.

Where things differ most is at the high end of the spectrum. The Church of Koar and the Hall of Mages are both major powers in the region, and possess overriding interest in cases related to their spheres of influence. This was evident in Paidreg's long "gilded cage" imprisonment by the Church in Vornavis, and more recently in the case of late, lamented Vindignis, with the Hall taking the lead in pursuing justice.

To get back to the peasantry: Let's say you do something bad. First, you can easily get away with it if your crime is not important enough to call down the local constabulary, or in territories lacking even a lawman, your neighbors. You could also get away with things if it's more trouble to bring you in. Let's say you're a skilled warrior with your own band of thugs. No one's going to risk their life to punish you for a murder an easier target might get strung up for.

If you get to the point of capture, then you'd be dragged before the aforementioned judge/magistrate/lord/lady. That person has ultimate say on your fate, and might choose to ignore or listen to arguments on why they should grant mercy, execute you, etc. The judgment and the punishment are entirely up to their discretion, within reason and Turamzzyrian law. The Empire might not tolerate slavery, but you could end up indefinitely indentured, being sent to the headsman or an Eddard Stark wannabe (in that he kills you himself, not in that his head has a nasty habit of coming off), or even set completely free despite your obvious guilt.

Again, not the fairest of systems.

>I would hope that an Imperial citizen (especially if there's distinction between citizens and run of the mill peasantry) would have the right to higher appeal to their Baron/Count/Earl/Duke, with nobility possibly having the right to appeal to the Emperor, kind of like Roman citizens could appeal their case to Caeser.

Optimistic, at best. The lower levels of Imperial society don't have oversight. You'd need the resources to reach the local seat of power. Plus, saying you're going to appeal your local justice's rulings is a good way to put them in a corner, and no one puts baby in a--yeah... point being, you're far more likely to get disappeared than you are to make it to any sort of appeals process.

Auchand
ASGM, World Development

I think GM's Scribes and Auchand hit some very good points, and I pretty much agree on many of them. I was trying to think if Imperial Justice would even be worthy of a new document, but I don't know if it would. We'll see I suppose, heh. But I look at the sphere of justice in the Turamzzyrian Empire being probably just as convoluted as our justice system in America. Just because the Turamzzyrian Empire has "rules" and "guidelines" for laws, doesn't mean everyone plays by those rules, or even operates within them. I think the closer you get to Tamzzyr, the cleaner justice might be (investigations, evidence, potential trials, fairness, etc) but again, there lies such a huge opportunity for corruption as well. Between the Sun Throne and each Province, the Hall of Mages, and the Church of Koar, there's definitely room for overlap, conflict, but also cooperation.

That is why, for example, when Earl Kestrel was assassinated, it could have easily fallen into the realm of Chastonia's imperial laws, and they could have dispatched bounty hunters, imperial lawmen, what have you. But given the nature of the enemy, or the enemy the killers were tied to (Elithain Cross) and the family connection with the Hall of Mages, the Hall's own investigative forces (Adjudicator Brieson) was called into handle the situation. On a darker, more corrupt side of the coin, when Wehnimer's Landing was suspect of providing arms and money to the krolvin to attack imperial towns, a rogue inquisitor of the Church of Koar was called in by the Earl of Estoria, infact it was a second cousin of the Earl who was in charge, Rinhale Hurrst. Now, an Imperial Inquisitor from say, Estoria, could have gone, but instead the Earl of Estoria leaned on his second cousin Rinhale, who we all know was technically not even authorized to lead such an investigation as he himself had conducted in wrongful actions while being an inquisitor for the Church. This has of course been exposed now, but no doubt more details around the use of Rinhale may or may not come to light in the future. Of course, Rinhale is dead...so is the Earl of Estoria...and Lord Thermon too...so I guess that leaves only one other person....perhaps Prelate Chaston Griffin? (insert evil laughter here)

Also, justice is a funny thing. Even in our own country, and in other examples of empires or governments in the past, justice isn't always rightfully served. Innocent people are found guilty (Come on, where is our Elanthia's First Forensic Taskforce?) and guilty people go unpunished for ages, if not a lifetime. The murdered daughter of a nobleman in the capitol of the empire might more justice than the murdered daughter of a shepherd on the outskirts of the Barony of Riverwood. Laws are still laws, the Empire is still the Empire, but it all depends on the local rulers, the local authorities, and then it branches up from there. I would also say everyone has a chance to let their voice be heard or their appeal, but again, this is likely hampered, or helped, by class, by location, etc. Another prime example is Chaston's Edict. It's mostly still recognized in the southern areas of the Empire, some western ones too. But the northern provinces pretty much ignore it. It's still a law, but each place kind of picks and chooses. Also, who is to say, that some minor noble in Hendor won't throw around Chaston's Edict, even if Earl Jovery of Hendor doesn't enforce it? Now there's conflict. Even with the overlap of the Hall of Mages and Church of Koar, all roads eventually lead to the Sun Throne. It's just, how does one plead their case, and how high can they go, in certain circumstances? I believe that there exists too many possibilities and variables to properly document it, or even answer it truthfully. Because all of these factors can change over time, as people die, new leaders rise, etc.

Look at the Jantalar war too. Baron Hochstib had questionable authority to do what he did, and really he was breaking laws by invading, but the Empress at the time let it happen. So again, laws...subject to interpretation of whoever is in power, or has the biggest stick. Even Earl Jovery of Hendor told Talador not to attack Landing, and they still did. Now, their lands are once again ruled by someone else, even if temporarily, at the hands of Hendoran nobles.

Then, what if we find ourselves in a situation where all, or a part of the Church of Koar tries to rise up and challenge the rule of the Sun Throne? Will laws on books protect people from dying, an empire from being divided? Oh man, I just realized...no one is safe! Grab your swords and lock up your daughters! Hehe.

Good thing we have Adventurers in the world to protect all of the innocent people in Elanthia, be the danger come in the form of krolvin, imperials, or even heroes themselves.

-GM Kenstrom-nt
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru

Clearly, if they were actually innocent of adultery, the boiling oil will not burn them.

Which makes them guilty of witchcraft.

- Xorus' player

I thought that one of the tests for adultery was that their severed heads were stirred into a vat of wine, and if they wound up facing each other they were clearly having an affair?