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PS - Thanks Raesh for immediately putting the spell preview up on test. That helped a ton and was much appreciated.
RHAZIN
JULIAN
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 08:59 AM CDT
>>Hits ok? Seems to hit harder than on live.. But not Like crazy amounts harder. Really hard to compare or know what heavy tm is supposed to hit like so it's hard for me to judge since it's a new template.
Yeah, I've been messing around and that's my feeling, too.
Testing on Intercessors, which are a little under level for my TM.
Usually, 4 casts of Air Lash or Frost Scythe killed an intercessor. Subbing one spit of DB for one of the spells, it still usually took 4 spells total. The order didn't seem to matter (ie: spit first or last or in the middle). Hard to tease out a difference between a spit of DB and a fully targeted single-target spell from that, but...
Usually, 3 casts of Air Lash targeted at the chest killed an intercessor. This was very consistent. In earlier testing I hit the back of a fresh Intercessor with an ALA and landed a spit on the same location and killed it. So maybe I scored a crit or maybe DB is doing more damage but that isn't apparant because hit locations vary (so the damage doesn't stack). Hard to verify because I can't fine-target DB.
What fuzzy conclusions can I draw from this?
Despite being Heavy TM, DB feels like a regular TM spell. This may be from the template being better but not THAT much better, it may be from DB not benefitting from the Target verb (less accurate and therefore less damaging, but offset by being a more damaging template). I'd be interested to have a normal Heavy TM spell available to compare vs my traditional single-target.
That said...
DB that hits like a fully targeted single-target spell is a really nice burst damage tool. Cooldown of about 2 minutes seems long but not unreasonable. Overall the test DB is a definite Would Take for me.
Mazrian
Yeah, I've been messing around and that's my feeling, too.
Testing on Intercessors, which are a little under level for my TM.
Usually, 4 casts of Air Lash or Frost Scythe killed an intercessor. Subbing one spit of DB for one of the spells, it still usually took 4 spells total. The order didn't seem to matter (ie: spit first or last or in the middle). Hard to tease out a difference between a spit of DB and a fully targeted single-target spell from that, but...
Usually, 3 casts of Air Lash targeted at the chest killed an intercessor. This was very consistent. In earlier testing I hit the back of a fresh Intercessor with an ALA and landed a spit on the same location and killed it. So maybe I scored a crit or maybe DB is doing more damage but that isn't apparant because hit locations vary (so the damage doesn't stack). Hard to verify because I can't fine-target DB.
What fuzzy conclusions can I draw from this?
Despite being Heavy TM, DB feels like a regular TM spell. This may be from the template being better but not THAT much better, it may be from DB not benefitting from the Target verb (less accurate and therefore less damaging, but offset by being a more damaging template). I'd be interested to have a normal Heavy TM spell available to compare vs my traditional single-target.
That said...
DB that hits like a fully targeted single-target spell is a really nice burst damage tool. Cooldown of about 2 minutes seems long but not unreasonable. Overall the test DB is a definite Would Take for me.
Mazrian
2DUMBARSE
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 09:01 AM CDT
>I'm leaning towards reducing the cost of AoE TM (And maybe debil). The other option would be to punch them up more, but that route is problematic.
The issue with AoE TM for me on my paladin is it only kills faster than my single strike TM spell if there are more than 4 things in a room. (Post re: my experiences with TM and numbars in the Paladin section.) That makes it useful only in invasion situations, and even that's debatable. It's debatable because a 100 mana cap means I'm going to be using cambrinth because that's the only way to sustain multiple successive 100 mana casts, so I can't attack with a weapon while I target for most of the pattern. If you factor weapon attacks into the equation, AoE TM is even slower to kill relative to cheaper forms.
A drop in mana cost alone won't fix that because then I'm in a situation where 6 things have to remain in a room for the spell to be more effective than single target TM while I'm attacking with a weapon for ~23 seconds. It's hard enough keeping 6 things alive in an invasion when I'm not the only one in the room, let alone when I'm actually attacking.
I don't know if my experience with AoE TM is the same as warrior mages'. I haven't been able to log into Test on mine presumably because I reactivated him after the first batch of changes. In any case, the only thing that would make it more effective in my eyes would be reducing its target time and its mana cost. Frankly, I wouldn't mind if it only hit up to 4 targets if it killed those targets significantly faster than other forms like I feel AoE TM should. The 6 target cap is neutering it IMO.
Side note: I noticed last night while in Test that AoE is not spammy for everyone else in the room anymore, or is that live in Prime and I just haven't noticed?
The issue with AoE TM for me on my paladin is it only kills faster than my single strike TM spell if there are more than 4 things in a room. (Post re: my experiences with TM and numbars in the Paladin section.) That makes it useful only in invasion situations, and even that's debatable. It's debatable because a 100 mana cap means I'm going to be using cambrinth because that's the only way to sustain multiple successive 100 mana casts, so I can't attack with a weapon while I target for most of the pattern. If you factor weapon attacks into the equation, AoE TM is even slower to kill relative to cheaper forms.
A drop in mana cost alone won't fix that because then I'm in a situation where 6 things have to remain in a room for the spell to be more effective than single target TM while I'm attacking with a weapon for ~23 seconds. It's hard enough keeping 6 things alive in an invasion when I'm not the only one in the room, let alone when I'm actually attacking.
I don't know if my experience with AoE TM is the same as warrior mages'. I haven't been able to log into Test on mine presumably because I reactivated him after the first batch of changes. In any case, the only thing that would make it more effective in my eyes would be reducing its target time and its mana cost. Frankly, I wouldn't mind if it only hit up to 4 targets if it killed those targets significantly faster than other forms like I feel AoE TM should. The 6 target cap is neutering it IMO.
Side note: I noticed last night while in Test that AoE is not spammy for everyone else in the room anymore, or is that live in Prime and I just haven't noticed?
RHAZIN
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 09:14 AM CDT
I'm not sure why I thought STS was converted over to Heavy TM. :/
DR-RAESH
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 10:05 AM CDT
>>Dragon's Breath- I really wanna like this spell but it's just hard. The duration is much better now. I'm casting at 30 mana and getting about 8 minutes. Problem is the cooldown. I'm getting about three spits in those 8 minutes. Could this spell be adjusted to no duration and a capped number of spits? Still have the cooldown, just remove the duration of the spell and have it expire with the last charge.
Seems reasonable to me. I didn't do this specific update but I'll make sure we look into it.
>>Maybe cranking the damage way up on this one too wouldn't hurt considering the cooldown between uses.
I can't crank on the heavy TM template much more than I already have - we start banging into the upper limits of what the combat system will let me push through for a single hit.
I'm looking into solutions, but this isn't a knob I can lean on much harder right now.
>>The areas I used were neutral to all of these spells, so there was no wonky environmental penalties or whatnot.
The new environmental system only impacts how much attunement is drained from you when you cast a spell - it has no impact on the actual potency of the spell.
>>Was a little bit underwhelmed when comparing these three spells against the armor wearing mobs.
Where we're balanced right now armor piercing spells ignore a large chunk of armor, but I suspect a lot of creatures don't have enough armor to get to break even (let alone clearly past it). I'd be interested in how it feels vs players in light vs heavy armor.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Seems reasonable to me. I didn't do this specific update but I'll make sure we look into it.
>>Maybe cranking the damage way up on this one too wouldn't hurt considering the cooldown between uses.
I can't crank on the heavy TM template much more than I already have - we start banging into the upper limits of what the combat system will let me push through for a single hit.
I'm looking into solutions, but this isn't a knob I can lean on much harder right now.
>>The areas I used were neutral to all of these spells, so there was no wonky environmental penalties or whatnot.
The new environmental system only impacts how much attunement is drained from you when you cast a spell - it has no impact on the actual potency of the spell.
>>Was a little bit underwhelmed when comparing these three spells against the armor wearing mobs.
Where we're balanced right now armor piercing spells ignore a large chunk of armor, but I suspect a lot of creatures don't have enough armor to get to break even (let alone clearly past it). I'd be interested in how it feels vs players in light vs heavy armor.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
2DUMBARSE
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 10:20 AM CDT
>Where we're balanced right now armor piercing spells ignore a large chunk of armor, but I suspect a lot of creatures don't have enough armor to get to break even (let alone clearly past it). I'd be interested in how it feels vs players in light vs heavy armor.
Me, too. I haven't been able to find anyone to test with me.
Me, too. I haven't been able to find anyone to test with me.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 12:04 PM CDT
>>I can't crank on the heavy TM template much more than I already have - we start banging into the upper limits of what the combat system will let me push through for a single hit.
I think part of what you're looking into for Heavy TM is what can a spell do "extra" beyond more damage. Maybe DB can provide a small naphtha splash?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I think part of what you're looking into for Heavy TM is what can a spell do "extra" beyond more damage. Maybe DB can provide a small naphtha splash?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
HASTALUEGO
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 12:04 PM CDT
>>I'd be interested in how it feels vs players in light vs heavy armor.
TBH, how FRS feels right now against players is a bit well, standard. The problem is it seems as if Armor-piercing splits armor into two groups-- Light/Chain: Not worth casting. Brig/Plate: Worth it.
The issue there is.. I'm not sure how many people are wearing full Brig outfits, but I'm guessing it's not many, and only one Guild is traditionally in a full Plate setup. The rest of the guilds are sporting Light and Chain setups for hindrance reasons, either for defense or stealth. I find even Armor Secondary Guilds are more than likely sporting Light setups because they're all either Survival Prime or Survival Secondary, making Stealth quite usable for them.
End result is: FRS exists to hurt Paladins in PVP. This makes me feel like obtaining the spell only fills a very tiny niche.
TBH, how FRS feels right now against players is a bit well, standard. The problem is it seems as if Armor-piercing splits armor into two groups-- Light/Chain: Not worth casting. Brig/Plate: Worth it.
The issue there is.. I'm not sure how many people are wearing full Brig outfits, but I'm guessing it's not many, and only one Guild is traditionally in a full Plate setup. The rest of the guilds are sporting Light and Chain setups for hindrance reasons, either for defense or stealth. I find even Armor Secondary Guilds are more than likely sporting Light setups because they're all either Survival Prime or Survival Secondary, making Stealth quite usable for them.
End result is: FRS exists to hurt Paladins in PVP. This makes me feel like obtaining the spell only fills a very tiny niche.
DR-GREJUVA
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/05/2016 12:13 PM CDT
Thanks for the feedback on Dragon's Breath. In Test, its duration has now increased even more and it uses charges, with the cooldown unchanged.
>>Maybe DB can provide a small naphtha splash?
There are plans for burning effects without naphtha, but not sure when they'll be available.
GM Grejuva
>>Maybe DB can provide a small naphtha splash?
There are plans for burning effects without naphtha, but not sure when they'll be available.
GM Grejuva
RHAZIN
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/06/2016 04:20 AM CDT
RE: Updated DB
Increased duration makes it so much easier to use now (for a lower level person). I'm getting 18 minutes and 2 spits at 30 mana. Duration is solid. Spits seems a little low, but it's something I can grow into without too much fuss. Damage still needs some more ooomph, but that seems more of a Heavy TM issue than a DB issue.
I no longer feel sad for having this spell just with the duration increase alone. Thanks a ton for the update to this. <3
Increased duration makes it so much easier to use now (for a lower level person). I'm getting 18 minutes and 2 spits at 30 mana. Duration is solid. Spits seems a little low, but it's something I can grow into without too much fuss. Damage still needs some more ooomph, but that seems more of a Heavy TM issue than a DB issue.
I no longer feel sad for having this spell just with the duration increase alone. Thanks a ton for the update to this. <3
JULIAN
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/06/2016 07:59 AM CDT
>>There are plans for burning effects without naphtha, but not sure when they'll be available.
That would be neat.
In our testing last night, DB hit like a single-target TM spell on targets I think are close to my level (Liurilias, Seldaen), which I think is lack of accuracy from not using the Target verb offsetting the greater damage of the Heavy TM template. Not a bad spell for bursty damage, for sure. Would absolutely take if it were the only WM Heavy TM spell.
However, if a straight-targeted Heavy TM spell were available, I might not take DB because using DB would lock me out of the option to drop even higher damage on the target with the straight-targeted spell.
Just some food for thought after testing.
Mazrian
That would be neat.
In our testing last night, DB hit like a single-target TM spell on targets I think are close to my level (Liurilias, Seldaen), which I think is lack of accuracy from not using the Target verb offsetting the greater damage of the Heavy TM template. Not a bad spell for bursty damage, for sure. Would absolutely take if it were the only WM Heavy TM spell.
However, if a straight-targeted Heavy TM spell were available, I might not take DB because using DB would lock me out of the option to drop even higher damage on the target with the straight-targeted spell.
Just some food for thought after testing.
Mazrian
PROCTORS2
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/06/2016 10:09 AM CDT
>However, if a straight-targeted Heavy TM spell were available, I might not take DB because using DB would lock me out of the option to drop even higher damage on the target with the straight-targeted spell.
Wait... is there a global Heavy TM timer? or is it per spell?
JULIAN
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/06/2016 10:12 AM CDT
>>Wait... is there a global Heavy TM timer? or is it per spell?
The timer is global.
Mazrian
The timer is global.
Mazrian
PROCTORS2
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/06/2016 10:28 AM CDT
I didn't realize that. Thank you!
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: ON TEST - Perceive Elements and New Casting Modifiers
04/06/2016 02:29 PM CDT
>The timer is global.
Well bummer.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Well bummer.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
