Thanks for updating the spell!

Is there any difference between the SPIT and EXHALE verbs for this spell?

The cooldown feels fairly long, but the spell seems to be a lot better too. I'm going to do further testing. Thanks again!

>>Is this intentional on the mana? I had thought all non-ritual spells capped around 100 mana, and the min prep is the same as it used to be. I was expecting a normal cap and higher min prep.

Yes, the mana adjustment is aimed at high-end casts, as the number of shots a capped spell can fire has increased tenfold.

>>BG could probably use the same treatment if you have time, as it does not currently auto-target.

Possibly. I'd like to be sure it's not causing any problems with DB first.

>>Is there any difference between the SPIT and EXHALE verbs for this spell?

Nope!

>>Any chance you could put the spell on preview for a bit?

Since it wasn't really a rewrite, probably not.

GM Grejuva

>>Yes, the mana adjustment is aimed at high-end casts, as the number of shots a capped spell can fire has increased tenfold.

So from 1 shot to 10 shots? When I was testing last night, I kept getting impatient waiting for the cooldown to be over so I could breathe fire again. So I never did get a full count.

For anyone wanting to know, at 200 mana, the spell lasts 10 minutes.

Really cool (hot?) change! Nice to see a spell scale this high.

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Meh?

Spell learning is based on difficulty, not mana efficency. If it takes 1 Warding rank to cast a 300 mana spell, you would get the experience for casting a 1 rank spell even at 300 mana.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

It teaches utility on cast, and TM on use.

Thanks for the info Armifer. I thought that might be the case, just thought I'd ask. I'm always looking for a better way to train utility!

Armifer, can you clarify? I know I learn better from casting my esoteric spells at max mana than if I cast them at minimum mana.

Let's take Aegis of Granite as an example:
It's esoteric, range from 250 - 1000 ranks. I have well over 1000. These are straight casts, with the ritual focus and no symbiosis.

If I cast at 250 mana, I gain no experience.

If I cast at 600 mana, I gain 3 mind states.

<<Armifer, can you clarify? I know I learn better from casting my esoteric spells at max mana than if I cast them at minimum mana.
<<Let's take Aegis of Granite as an example:
<<It's esoteric, range from 250 - 1000 ranks. I have well over 1000. These are straight casts, with the ritual focus and no symbiosis.
<<If I cast at 250 mana, I gain no experience.
<<If I cast at 600 mana, I gain 3 mind states.

250 mana only requires 250 ranks to cast (it's just coincidence these numbers are identical) and that's what is contesting your 1000+ skill. I.e. The difficulty of the spell you have cast is much lower than your skill.

600 mana requies 1000 ranks to cast so that's what is contesting your 1000+ ranks. Because this is more in range of your actual skill then you get experience for it. I.e. The difficulty of the spell you have cast is comparable to your skill.

Also, I think ritual spells get a slight boost to experience per cast compared to standard spells to compensate for their longer cast times and clunkiness in the same way that battle spells get a slight reduction per cast to compensate for their lower cast times. The exp per time would be about equal for all three types of spells.

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>>250 mana only requires 250 ranks to cast (it's just coincidence these numbers are identical) and that's what is contesting your 1000+ skill. I.e. The difficulty of the spell you have cast is much lower than your skill.

>>600 mana requies 1000 ranks to cast so that's what is contesting your 1000+ ranks. Because this is more in range of your actual skill then you get experience for it. I.e. The difficulty of the spell you have cast is comparable to your skill.

This is correct. Or, to put it simply, mana modifies difficulty, how much it modifies difficulty by depends on the spell.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>Armifer, can you clarify? I know I learn better from casting my esoteric spells at max mana than if I cast them at minimum mana.

epedia is listing DB as basic. Is that another error? If it's not, you might not be learning because its just too easy for you.

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>>Basic, advanced, etc is simply an indication of the general skill range required to cast at minimum mana. Since 80 is the minimum skill it should be listed as advanced, not basic but that shouln't have any bearing on the learning rate inasmuch as it goes off of skill which was listed correctly, and not the abstracted categorization of said skill.

I think intro/basic/advanced/esoteric are also indications of how hard it is to maximize the spell, as well (which would relate to how well it teaches at certain skill ranges).

In other words, you can put 100 mana into an intro spell way before you can put 100 mana into an esoteric spell. That's also why it's easier to put more mana into a basic spell with a symbiosis than an esoteric spell with a symbiosis. In turn, if you are able to cap out a basic spell with next-to-no effort, it doesn't teach as well as a spell where you might still slightly backfire when casting at cap.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>Yes, but the point is it is an abstraction of the skill range the spell covers, which was correct on the wiki. I.e. the fact that it said basic means nothing.

...yeah, that's my point. The person was asking "Why is a basic spell (Dragon's Breath) teaching worse than an esoteric one (Aegis of Granite)". The answer is "Because unless DB is listed incorrectly difficulty-wise, it's an easier spell than AEG."

Yes, the mana investment is unrelated to the spell difficulty. But the spell difficulty relates to how well it teaches (or doesn't teach). We're both pointing out different reasons why A is better than B, even though they're both valid.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

No, that's not what I was asking. I was asking if it should be teaching better since it can be cast at 200 mana now. I understand the difference between a basic, advanced, and esoteric spell. And DB is an advanced spell.

It does teach me a little bit, but I was hoping with the doubling of the mana investment, it could be nudged a bit higher.

All spells teach better when you put more mana into them, if they are still in your skill range.

As an aside, magic training needs to be looked into. The symbiosis stop-gap measure does not seem to be a sufficient final solution to me. I still need to put upwards of 75 mana into my (100 mana cap)spells to learn, and it still takes a long time. Compare this to guilds with cyclics for all of their main magic skills, and it's like quadruple the time investment, or more.

Also, cyclics should not have a time period where they don't teach in the beginning. They are consuming mana and concentration, they should teach. I understand why you guys put in the cap on how long they'll teach before you have to recast them, but the initial period of no teaching is frustrating.

<<No, that's not what I was asking. I was asking if it should be teaching better since it can be cast at 200 mana now. I understand the difference between a basic, advanced, and esoteric spell. And DB is an advanced spell.

The mana range changed, not the skill range so the spell won't teach any higher than it used to but will be less mana efficient for the same training. This is what Grejuva was referring to about mana efficiency in his original announcement.

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Chaos symbiosis is known by all magic users. After you prep your spell, prior to casting, type prep symb, to ramp up the difficulty. Oh, and use a lot less mana than you typically would, else you'll sizzle them nerves.

I know about chaos symbiosis. I said I wasn't spending slots on others. I already spent slots to memorize gauge flow.

I don't do the sorcerous research anymore. I lost my scroll spells too often.

The thing is, you're all missing the point. Research and symbioses were (from what I remember hearing) introduced as a way to alleviate the difficulty of magic training while they figured out how to fix magic training through actual casting.

Is DB using single shot or multi shot mechanics?

Mazrian

Going by what I've seen while using it, I'm fairly certain it's using single shot mechanics.

I picked up this spell with minimum spell requirements. I started off being able to cast it at minimum prep (10), which lasted for a minute or less. During that time I can usually spit twice. I'm up to 15 mana now and it lasts for a little bit over two minutes. During that time I can usually spit three times.

Could this spell be adjusted a bit for lower folks? Increasing the duration at the very least. I'm not so concerned with how many spits I get over time, just with the ease of using the spell. Having to recast it constantly on the lower end makes using it a pain. Why wouldn't I just use a TM spell instead? Maybe up the minimum prep and up the base duration?

DB and BG are both cast on you and ready to use at that moment. Remember, you can continue to use other TM spells with these loaded. You can increase your damage output by using these with your normal TM spell.

-Dartellum Waddle

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