Personally, I'd like to see a metaspell for Ignite (maybe from the Aether spellbook) that allows Ignite to be utilized as one of the other elemental damage types. (Cold, Electric.)
HASTALUEGO
SARAGOS
Re: Ignite metaspell
12/29/2016 02:19 AM CST
I'll second this. I'd love to see something like that. It offers both interesting options mechanically and it would also give a nice option to have the extra damage to those who want to steer clear of being fire mages.
- Saragos
- Saragos
SHIFT3
Re: Ignite metaspell
12/29/2016 09:30 AM CST
Interesting sorcery idea. You could even do something unique with high sorcery, where it used sorcery ranks but didn't explode you. Here's what I'm thinking.
- Ignite is still in the fire book.
- There's a metaspell that lets you invoke ignite ice or electric or aether.
- The fiery look is still there, but the fire doesn't behave like fire. It freezes or shocks attacks attunement. Fancy messaging.
- When the sorcery check happens, it doesn't explode you, at least not directly. The fire on the blade explodes.
- Explosions damage the blade. The blade doesn't get destroyed, but it can be brought to 1% health.
- Having ES up would prevent any indirect damage, such as fire burning your hands.
Easter egg: you can invoke the blade with a special keyword to explode it intentionally. It's a very painful AOE on anything at melee with you that hits with the element + a random one.
DR-RAESH
Re: Ignite metaspell
12/29/2016 08:37 PM CST
>>- Ignite is still in the fire book.
>>- There's a metaspell that lets you invoke ignite ice or electric or aether.
>>- The fiery look is still there, but the fire doesn't behave like fire. It freezes or shocks attacks attunement. Fancy messaging.
That is, essentially, what a hylomorphic version of Ignite would look like (Though I question why you'd do that vs just freezing your blade or charging it with electricity and thus avoiding sorcery entirely but so it goes.)
>>- When the sorcery check happens, it doesn't explode you, at least not directly. The fire on the blade explodes.
>>- Explosions damage the blade. The blade doesn't get destroyed, but it can be brought to 1% health.
That's not how backlash works. The weapon isn't handling the mana streams, you are. When things go wrong, you're going to be the one to pay the price. Not your weapon.
>>Easter egg: you can invoke the blade with a special keyword to explode it intentionally. It's a very painful AOE on anything at melee with you that hits with the element + a random one.
That definitely wouldn't happen. Sorcery backlash is a downside, not a feature.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
>>- There's a metaspell that lets you invoke ignite ice or electric or aether.
>>- The fiery look is still there, but the fire doesn't behave like fire. It freezes or shocks attacks attunement. Fancy messaging.
That is, essentially, what a hylomorphic version of Ignite would look like (Though I question why you'd do that vs just freezing your blade or charging it with electricity and thus avoiding sorcery entirely but so it goes.)
>>- When the sorcery check happens, it doesn't explode you, at least not directly. The fire on the blade explodes.
>>- Explosions damage the blade. The blade doesn't get destroyed, but it can be brought to 1% health.
That's not how backlash works. The weapon isn't handling the mana streams, you are. When things go wrong, you're going to be the one to pay the price. Not your weapon.
>>Easter egg: you can invoke the blade with a special keyword to explode it intentionally. It's a very painful AOE on anything at melee with you that hits with the element + a random one.
That definitely wouldn't happen. Sorcery backlash is a downside, not a feature.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
ASHBOMB
Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/29/2016 09:28 PM CST
Hylomorphic is mixing elements? Neat! How much backlash would we get with this versus cross-magic mixes?
The least dangerous ideas:
What about mixing earth and fire to get lava that sticks and burns? Can this potentially push things over the cap with initial + dot damage?
Earth and water for quicksand, athletics skill to escape, or else you eventually drown.
Water(cold) and Air for internal chest and neck wounds. (It's auto targetted to these areas, hence the risk vs reward)
Fire and Air for Nipoh Oshu steam (can't be blocked).
The more dangerous ideas (opposite elements):
Air and Earth for anti-gravity effects (prone, entangled).
Fire and Water for burn splashes.
Aether and Electricity for internal damage/debilitation stuns.
The most dangerous (multi-mixes):
Air, Water, and Electric for AoE storms that you can't control, and can grow into different rooms, potentially triggering justice. debilitation from freezing rain, damage from random lightning bolts.
Earth, Fire, and Aether for shimmering invisible barriers that mix fire rain and ring of spears, centered on caster. Anything advancing/retreating gets hit with lots of damage/burning/stuns at each transition. Caster has roundtime(3 seconds)to retreat and high chance of the spell not moving with the caster
The most most dangerous (you're coming with me):
Mix everything: Cyclic spell, each pulse caster takes damage until they lose control and die, exploding and releasing all the energy to everything else in the room, potentially killing everyone/everything and damaging/destroying items on the ground and on the caster in the process. (worn armor and held weapons guaranteed to be dropped to 1%)
Grants consent to anyone in the room, body parts fly into adjacent rooms, triggers social justice and divine outrage (Meraud themed).
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
The least dangerous ideas:
What about mixing earth and fire to get lava that sticks and burns? Can this potentially push things over the cap with initial + dot damage?
Earth and water for quicksand, athletics skill to escape, or else you eventually drown.
Water(cold) and Air for internal chest and neck wounds. (It's auto targetted to these areas, hence the risk vs reward)
Fire and Air for Nipoh Oshu steam (can't be blocked).
The more dangerous ideas (opposite elements):
Air and Earth for anti-gravity effects (prone, entangled).
Fire and Water for burn splashes.
Aether and Electricity for internal damage/debilitation stuns.
The most dangerous (multi-mixes):
Air, Water, and Electric for AoE storms that you can't control, and can grow into different rooms, potentially triggering justice. debilitation from freezing rain, damage from random lightning bolts.
Earth, Fire, and Aether for shimmering invisible barriers that mix fire rain and ring of spears, centered on caster. Anything advancing/retreating gets hit with lots of damage/burning/stuns at each transition. Caster has roundtime(3 seconds)to retreat and high chance of the spell not moving with the caster
The most most dangerous (you're coming with me):
Mix everything: Cyclic spell, each pulse caster takes damage until they lose control and die, exploding and releasing all the energy to everything else in the room, potentially killing everyone/everything and damaging/destroying items on the ground and on the caster in the process. (worn armor and held weapons guaranteed to be dropped to 1%)
Grants consent to anyone in the room, body parts fly into adjacent rooms, triggers social justice and divine outrage (Meraud themed).
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/29/2016 09:56 PM CST
>>Hylomorphic is mixing elements?
I might be misremembering but I think it's less mixing elements and more corrupting elements. So a hylomorphic ignite spell would be less "I'm putting water in this fire spell" and more "I made fire that is not doing what fire should be doing at all".
FWIW, I think the concept of guild-based sorcery is less a case of "it's stronger than it should ever be" and more "it breaks the rules for what your guild is meant to accomplish". This can either mean doing something that circumvents the rules of your guild (maybe a hylomorphic spell that aligns you to all elements at the same time, or a cleric spell that turns any target undead so they can use undead/cursed magic on it they want), or breaks the rules of what your guild is "supposed" to be allowed to do by general design (while not explicitly a sorcery spell itself, think that Moon Mage relic from a few years ago can, through changing reality via fate mojo, potentially heal the moon mage using it).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I might be misremembering but I think it's less mixing elements and more corrupting elements. So a hylomorphic ignite spell would be less "I'm putting water in this fire spell" and more "I made fire that is not doing what fire should be doing at all".
FWIW, I think the concept of guild-based sorcery is less a case of "it's stronger than it should ever be" and more "it breaks the rules for what your guild is meant to accomplish". This can either mean doing something that circumvents the rules of your guild (maybe a hylomorphic spell that aligns you to all elements at the same time, or a cleric spell that turns any target undead so they can use undead/cursed magic on it they want), or breaks the rules of what your guild is "supposed" to be allowed to do by general design (while not explicitly a sorcery spell itself, think that Moon Mage relic from a few years ago can, through changing reality via fate mojo, potentially heal the moon mage using it).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/29/2016 11:41 PM CST
My kingdom for cauterize.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 01:37 AM CST
absence of all elements = blackfire. woo! it would be nice to have a super destructive aoe tm that is the most super destructive of all the aoe tm.
-Munch-
-Munch-
DR-RAESH
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 05:12 AM CST
Hylomorphic isn't so much mixing elements as making one element act like another.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 08:52 AM CST
>>Hylomorphic isn't so much mixing elements as making one element act like another.
In what instance would someone want to do that?
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
In what instance would someone want to do that?
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
HASTALUEGO
Re: Ignite metaspell
12/30/2016 09:22 AM CST
>>(Though I question why you'd do that vs just freezing your blade or charging it with electricity and thus avoiding sorcery entirely but so it goes.)
This is more of what I was suggesting.
This is more of what I was suggesting.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 09:50 AM CST
>>In what instance would someone want to do that?
That's pretty much the argument against Sorcery as a whole.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
That's pretty much the argument against Sorcery as a whole.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 01:39 PM CST
>>That's pretty much the argument against Sorcery as a whole.
Yeah, but most sorcery is useful. Making fire do ice damage feels more cosmetic than anything else.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
Yeah, but most sorcery is useful. Making fire do ice damage feels more cosmetic than anything else.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
ILLIENA
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 01:44 PM CST
> Yeah, but most sorcery is useful. Making fire do ice damage feels more cosmetic than anything else.
Making fire flow like water or stick like goo is basically the thinking behind napalm.
Making fire flow like water or stick like goo is basically the thinking behind napalm.
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 02:02 PM CST
>>Making fire flow like water or stick like goo is basically the thinking behind napalm.
Yeah that hearkens to my suggestions of mixing the elements, which apparantly hylomorphic is not.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
Yeah that hearkens to my suggestions of mixing the elements, which apparantly hylomorphic is not.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 02:32 PM CST
Personally I'm hoping for our sorcery to not be damage focused. I'd rather these strange elemental interactions add some form of utility, we've got damage pretty taken care of as it is.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 02:37 PM CST
>>> Yeah, but most sorcery is useful. Making fire do ice damage feels more cosmetic than anything else.
Blackfire was the result of someone asking what colourless fire would be like and was most likely the result of having fire behave like one or more other elements (3 or 4 other elements do not emit light after all). Based on that I think that hylomorphic sorcery will be more than just changing the damage type of an element; instead to understand it you probably need to ask what would happen if element A behaved more like or had some of the properties of element B and then run with it to some weird effect. Perhaps a better RL example might be supercritical fluid, which is a state of matter that has some properties of liquid and some of gas and ultimately is able to do things that neither state can alone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid
A DR example might be a spell that takes advantage of solid air. Imagine what you could do with such a bizarre element.
Blackfire was the result of someone asking what colourless fire would be like and was most likely the result of having fire behave like one or more other elements (3 or 4 other elements do not emit light after all). Based on that I think that hylomorphic sorcery will be more than just changing the damage type of an element; instead to understand it you probably need to ask what would happen if element A behaved more like or had some of the properties of element B and then run with it to some weird effect. Perhaps a better RL example might be supercritical fluid, which is a state of matter that has some properties of liquid and some of gas and ultimately is able to do things that neither state can alone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid
A DR example might be a spell that takes advantage of solid air. Imagine what you could do with such a bizarre element.
SHIFT3
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 02:59 PM CST
>> Though I question why you'd do that vs just freezing your blade or charging it with electricity and thus avoiding sorcery entirely but so it goes.
>> In what instance would someone want to do that?
Ideally, it would be because it does something that you couldn't do with a single element. Some hand waving, but maybe the corruption isn't clean. It's not a pure ice effect, and that lets you do something that raw ice or raw fire couldn't normally do.
- Invoking aether on ignite could cause it to attack attunement in addition to vitality, or corrupt attunement regen or spell casting.
- Maybe invoking mantle of flame to aether or wind would create an invisible fire. You no longer get the light source, but you can hide without penalty.
- Maybe invoking veil of ice to fire would cause it to empower/corrupt your fire spells. It turns it into a blackfire version which could be a heavy TM without a cool down, and a vitality cost to cast.
- Maybe a new water transformation that you convert force to fire. You'd ignite your blood, cauterizing wounds but suffer vitality loss while it was active. A desperate healing spell. You were going to die, but you can risk explosive death for the chance that you'll survive.
- Maybe a chaotic version of air bubble. An early spell that could be used to thematically practice this version of sorcery. With enough skill you can convert this to an element (messaging only). It's a basic targeted spell. You take an air bubble, trap the target, and then try to convert the air to another element. It does dot based damage based on the element type (electric, fire, ice), and then you can invoke it (with skill) to explode the sphere by converting it to a aether/air/electric hybrid. This ends the spell. That gives you the flexibility of putting on a ramping dot (primarily PvP or fleeing creatures), and executing a finishing move at any time. It also gives dispel a niche. You want to take this thing off before it gets too painful.
- Maybe an air based spell that acts like grounding field. You can convert the element on a whim to increase the damage dealt/taken by that element, and reduce the opposing element.
- Maybe a summoning based spell or ability that contorts your surroundings. Base it on ethereal fissure or summon. You attempt to summon two domains at the same time within yourself. So you don't have an opposing element while the spell is active.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 03:11 PM CST
Some more ideas:
1) Aether Barrier - based on aether that doesn't support targeting matrixes and therefore makes the caster immune to TM spells, but the caster cannot use TM spells themselves. Functionally a clone of https://elanthipedia.play.net/Worm%27s_Mist (not that I think it is good idea to just clone other spells)
2) Flames of Suur (or Flames of Firulf) - A lighning based spell matrix that introduces holy mana into a lightning TM spell that can damage incorporeal undead , perhaps by causing it tp take on some property of Aether. This concept is based on the idea that lightning was a manifestation of the immortals once held by clerics. In the interest of disclosure, the basics of this idea have already been mentioned by Raesh.
3) Planar Disruption - A spell that alters the fabric of reality to temporarily disrupt the ability to draw on other planes. This spell can dispel effects that require access to any other plane:
MM: Destiny Cipher, Read the Ripples, Seer' sense, Sever Thread, Shadowing, Shadow Servant, Tangled Fate, Tezirahs Veil; also removes active predictions
Cleric: Auspice, Murrula's Flames, Resurrection, Soul Attrition, Soul Bonding, Vigil
WM: Etheral Fissure; also Dispels aethereal pathways, familiars, elemental weapons
SHIFT3
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 03:45 PM CST
While I'm thinking about it, a few more.
Defensive ability or spell. It lets you change the damage type of incoming spells, with an internal cool-down. You cast it, maybe to fire since you're wearing plate and want to avoid electricity. The next damaging spell that comes in will be converted to do fire damage instead of the type it was. This is stackable with grounding field, but it can only fire once every 20 or 30 seconds.
Transformation based spells. It allows you to convert an elemental transformation to a new element. There's some hand waving here though. For example, cast Aegis of Granite as normal. Then cast a spell to purge part of the transform by converting those elements back to their natural state (ie: removes the look, keeps the buffs). Granite would still be granite, but you've changed the you portion of the transformation. You can now cast a fire transformation as usual. It takes a lot of skill to cast these in rapid succession (more than once every hour)
Room based spells
- Convert the water to earth, removing the athletics check on a swimming room while the spell is up. Some fun messaging about walking on the sandy water.
- Convert earth to water, causing the room to turn into a swimming room. You can trap people this way, and that would give them consent; however, you could also turn electric spells into AOE spells like today. It would also change what could be done in the room, such as foraging.
- Convert air to fire. You essentially create a room like the fire sprites room north of the crossings. Internal neck damage to everything in the area.
- Convert air to water. Room becomes an underwater room that slowly restores vitality. Air bubble or die.
- Convert air to aether. Same as above, but attunement.
High-utility spells/mental control spells. These spells drain concentration so long as their active. If you reach 0 concentration then they fade or do bad things. I'm kind of leaning towards bad things, just for fun. Maybe the elements go out of control in violent and unpredictable ways. Sometimes it's good, but most times it's not. A decent discipline level means you can keep up one indefinitely, but you'll need high discipline to keep up more than that. You can't release these spells.
- Coat your body with an electric web that you convert to invisible air in the casting. You mentally control the shift. If you fall unconscious, it converts back to lightning and tries to shock you back to your senses.
- Convert the blood that leaves your body into pure fire (water -> fire). Anything that causes you to bleed has to pass a discipline check or be stunned by the surprise burn. It acts as naptha either way and gives them a burning acid where it splashed.
- Convert steel to stone (ie: limestone). Cast on a target, and slowly consumes their metal weapons/armor. The construction is reduced to 1-5 (based on mana), weight is increased, and the quality can be easily whittled away.
- Convert steel to stone (ie: basalt). Greatly increases the weight, construction, and protection attributes of your armor when cast on yourself.
- Convert steel to air (cast on an opponent). Some (most?) of the target's shield / armor converts to an aether substance, giving you a chance to bypass their a portion of their protections when attacking. Does not work on leather.
- Convert steel to air (cast on self). Your weapon attacks balance and fatigue. It does no damage.
-
Defensive ability or spell. It lets you change the damage type of incoming spells, with an internal cool-down. You cast it, maybe to fire since you're wearing plate and want to avoid electricity. The next damaging spell that comes in will be converted to do fire damage instead of the type it was. This is stackable with grounding field, but it can only fire once every 20 or 30 seconds.
Transformation based spells. It allows you to convert an elemental transformation to a new element. There's some hand waving here though. For example, cast Aegis of Granite as normal. Then cast a spell to purge part of the transform by converting those elements back to their natural state (ie: removes the look, keeps the buffs). Granite would still be granite, but you've changed the you portion of the transformation. You can now cast a fire transformation as usual. It takes a lot of skill to cast these in rapid succession (more than once every hour)
Room based spells
- Convert the water to earth, removing the athletics check on a swimming room while the spell is up. Some fun messaging about walking on the sandy water.
- Convert earth to water, causing the room to turn into a swimming room. You can trap people this way, and that would give them consent; however, you could also turn electric spells into AOE spells like today. It would also change what could be done in the room, such as foraging.
- Convert air to fire. You essentially create a room like the fire sprites room north of the crossings. Internal neck damage to everything in the area.
- Convert air to water. Room becomes an underwater room that slowly restores vitality. Air bubble or die.
- Convert air to aether. Same as above, but attunement.
High-utility spells/mental control spells. These spells drain concentration so long as their active. If you reach 0 concentration then they fade or do bad things. I'm kind of leaning towards bad things, just for fun. Maybe the elements go out of control in violent and unpredictable ways. Sometimes it's good, but most times it's not. A decent discipline level means you can keep up one indefinitely, but you'll need high discipline to keep up more than that. You can't release these spells.
- Coat your body with an electric web that you convert to invisible air in the casting. You mentally control the shift. If you fall unconscious, it converts back to lightning and tries to shock you back to your senses.
- Convert the blood that leaves your body into pure fire (water -> fire). Anything that causes you to bleed has to pass a discipline check or be stunned by the surprise burn. It acts as naptha either way and gives them a burning acid where it splashed.
- Convert steel to stone (ie: limestone). Cast on a target, and slowly consumes their metal weapons/armor. The construction is reduced to 1-5 (based on mana), weight is increased, and the quality can be easily whittled away.
- Convert steel to stone (ie: basalt). Greatly increases the weight, construction, and protection attributes of your armor when cast on yourself.
- Convert steel to air (cast on an opponent). Some (most?) of the target's shield / armor converts to an aether substance, giving you a chance to bypass their a portion of their protections when attacking. Does not work on leather.
- Convert steel to air (cast on self). Your weapon attacks balance and fatigue. It does no damage.
-
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 03:51 PM CST
All of these ideas involve mixing elements which I'm very down for, but that isn't what was described.
I'm still trying to figure out a reason why I'd want something water based to do fire damage (and not mix, just replace).
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
I'm still trying to figure out a reason why I'd want something water based to do fire damage (and not mix, just replace).
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
SHIFT3
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 03:58 PM CST
>> All of these ideas involve mixing elements which I'm very down for, but that isn't what was described.
I don't see it that way.
Take this for example:
> Coat your body with an electric web that you convert to invisible air in the casting
You've changed the lightning to air. So long as you can control it, it's air. It does nothing, or at least nothing lightning would do. When you can't control the shift, it becomes lightning which then does something that you couldn't do since you were unable to act (unconscious). I don't how this could thematically work by mixing elements.
Take this too.
> Convert steel to stone (ie: basalt)
You're changing the components of another items armor to make it something it's not. The insanely protective damite full plate just became limestone instead, or air as made by one of the other suggestions. You can now get through the hole you made in the armor to do more damage. You're not mixing the elements, you're changing them.
> Convert the water to earth,
Likewise this. You're making the room easier to move in not by mixing earth with water, but by turning the water into earth. It still looks like water, but you can walk on it.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 04:25 PM CST
>>> I'm still trying to figure out a reason why I'd want something water based to do fire damage (and not mix, just replace)
I agree, that would be pointless. Which is why it is, in my opinion, highly unlikely you will see such a sorcery spell introduced. It is far more likely that sorcery will allow you to do things you couldn't otherwise do. I do agree that some of the proposals seem to be more mixing elements or transforming one into another, which may not be in keeping with the idea of hylomorphic sorcery. Some clearly introduce the idea of creating new, bastard elements that do something that they should not. From SHIFT3 ideas, here are a few I think do that:
>>> - Invoking aether on ignite could cause it to attack attunement in addition to vitality, or corrupt attunement regen or spell casting.
Being able to drain attunement or vitality is not normally an ability of Aether spells (since aether is the source of mana). If creates a corrupt form of aether that no longer propagates mana it would be very detrimental to the attunment of anyone casting spells. I think that a vitality drain is less likely to be a possibility because that is probably a property of life mana (which hylomorphic sorcery does not contain). A nice moderate level debilitation.
>>> *Maybe a summoning based spell or ability that contorts your surroundings. Base it on ethereal fissure or summon. You attempt to summon two domains at the same time within yourself. So you don't have an opposing element while the spell is active.
This is a great idea in keeping with what Teleologic Sorcery does, it removes a restriction at the cost of resorting to sorcery and all the consequences thereof. You could conceptualize it as creating a field where your chosen element has some oppositional element that does not really exist. A nice lower level augmentation/utility spell.
I agree, that would be pointless. Which is why it is, in my opinion, highly unlikely you will see such a sorcery spell introduced. It is far more likely that sorcery will allow you to do things you couldn't otherwise do. I do agree that some of the proposals seem to be more mixing elements or transforming one into another, which may not be in keeping with the idea of hylomorphic sorcery. Some clearly introduce the idea of creating new, bastard elements that do something that they should not. From SHIFT3 ideas, here are a few I think do that:
>>> - Invoking aether on ignite could cause it to attack attunement in addition to vitality, or corrupt attunement regen or spell casting.
Being able to drain attunement or vitality is not normally an ability of Aether spells (since aether is the source of mana). If creates a corrupt form of aether that no longer propagates mana it would be very detrimental to the attunment of anyone casting spells. I think that a vitality drain is less likely to be a possibility because that is probably a property of life mana (which hylomorphic sorcery does not contain). A nice moderate level debilitation.
>>> *Maybe a summoning based spell or ability that contorts your surroundings. Base it on ethereal fissure or summon. You attempt to summon two domains at the same time within yourself. So you don't have an opposing element while the spell is active.
This is a great idea in keeping with what Teleologic Sorcery does, it removes a restriction at the cost of resorting to sorcery and all the consequences thereof. You could conceptualize it as creating a field where your chosen element has some oppositional element that does not really exist. A nice lower level augmentation/utility spell.
DR-RAESH
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/30/2016 08:54 PM CST
>>In what instance would someone want to do that?
When no one existing element has the properties you want for the effect you need.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
When no one existing element has the properties you want for the effect you need.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/31/2016 12:40 AM CST
>>When no one existing element has the properties you want for the effect you need.
I'm sorry it sounds like your definition is to take fireball, and make it a fireball that does impact/water damage instead of impact/fire damage. My examples were the mixing of elements, which from what I gather you said wasn't a thing.
Am I missing something?
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
I'm sorry it sounds like your definition is to take fireball, and make it a fireball that does impact/water damage instead of impact/fire damage. My examples were the mixing of elements, which from what I gather you said wasn't a thing.
Am I missing something?
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
12/31/2016 06:10 AM CST
>>Am I missing something?
It's themed around screwing with the very definition of what an element is and what it can accomplish. Not iceballs, not fireiceballs, but "fire that sets ghosts on fire balls, because sorcerous fire can be written to have that power." Think BLackfire for a moment. Blackfire isn't actual fire-fire, and it isn't ice fire either, it's a supped up megafire with insanely dangerous, unnatural properties because someone from ye olde Fire Cabal had the bright idea to see how far the dial goes past 10.
There's also hooks into "element X," which may either be a definition-shattering unrecognized element... or another blackfire-ish monstrosity of concepts welded together.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
It's themed around screwing with the very definition of what an element is and what it can accomplish. Not iceballs, not fireiceballs, but "fire that sets ghosts on fire balls, because sorcerous fire can be written to have that power." Think BLackfire for a moment. Blackfire isn't actual fire-fire, and it isn't ice fire either, it's a supped up megafire with insanely dangerous, unnatural properties because someone from ye olde Fire Cabal had the bright idea to see how far the dial goes past 10.
There's also hooks into "element X," which may either be a definition-shattering unrecognized element... or another blackfire-ish monstrosity of concepts welded together.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 09:27 PM CST
>>I'm sorry it sounds like your definition is to take fireball, and make it a fireball that does impact/water damage instead of impact/fire damage.
This is more "what if we just made a different spell that also followed the same rules all other spells follow." AFAIK, mixing elements isn't sorcery to begin with, since it's all elemental magic. Sorcery is more "what if you take the rules of lunar magic and apply them to elemental magic, which you can only do by adding lunar magic to elemental magic hey look Sorcery."
>>I'm still trying to figure out a reason why I'd want something water based to do fire damage (and not mix, just replace).
TBH "fireball, but ice damage" is probably a very non-adventurous/suicidal view of what sorcery is supposed to accomplish, what with defying the laws of nature and all.
Think of magic as having the same kinds of rules and structures that you'd have in chemistry or physics. Sorcery isn't "what if we make the fire not glow that much" or "what if we make the rocks really really gooey" as much as "what if the laws that govern how magic functions didn't function like that anymore."
That's why it's more like Armifer's concept of "elemental magic that can hit noncorporeal undead," because that's an explicit rule-breaking. Think things like "fire that heals instead of burns (life+elemental... although I think this mix is more Necromancy than Hylomorphic Sorcery)" or "aether that lets me summon another warrior mage instead of a familiar (lunar+elemental)".
Breaking your own guild's magic's rules also apply to what falls under sorcery. Think of how Moon Mages attempt to defy fate via Teleologic Sorcery. Warrior Mages, in theory, could defy the way elemental alignment works, stronger than how they can shift their "counter" element naturally. Or if they were able to align (and use?) elements that they shouldn't naturally touch (like that non-element you can align to kinda as an easter egg for now).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
This is more "what if we just made a different spell that also followed the same rules all other spells follow." AFAIK, mixing elements isn't sorcery to begin with, since it's all elemental magic. Sorcery is more "what if you take the rules of lunar magic and apply them to elemental magic, which you can only do by adding lunar magic to elemental magic hey look Sorcery."
>>I'm still trying to figure out a reason why I'd want something water based to do fire damage (and not mix, just replace).
TBH "fireball, but ice damage" is probably a very non-adventurous/suicidal view of what sorcery is supposed to accomplish, what with defying the laws of nature and all.
Think of magic as having the same kinds of rules and structures that you'd have in chemistry or physics. Sorcery isn't "what if we make the fire not glow that much" or "what if we make the rocks really really gooey" as much as "what if the laws that govern how magic functions didn't function like that anymore."
That's why it's more like Armifer's concept of "elemental magic that can hit noncorporeal undead," because that's an explicit rule-breaking. Think things like "fire that heals instead of burns (life+elemental... although I think this mix is more Necromancy than Hylomorphic Sorcery)" or "aether that lets me summon another warrior mage instead of a familiar (lunar+elemental)".
Breaking your own guild's magic's rules also apply to what falls under sorcery. Think of how Moon Mages attempt to defy fate via Teleologic Sorcery. Warrior Mages, in theory, could defy the way elemental alignment works, stronger than how they can shift their "counter" element naturally. Or if they were able to align (and use?) elements that they shouldn't naturally touch (like that non-element you can align to kinda as an easter egg for now).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:23 PM CST
It's my understanding that Hylomorphic is stricly tinkering with elementals, whereas mixing mana types is High Sorcery.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:29 PM CST
>It's my understanding that Hylomorphic is stricly tinkering with elementals, whereas mixing mana types is High Sorcery.
Hylomorphic sorcery is High Sorcery. Hylomorphic Sorcery is the corruption of cosmologic shape and function.
Its spell patterns are a mixture of Elemental Mana with Lunar or Holy and requires knowledge and connections to the Elemental planes unique to the Warrior Mage guild.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
Hylomorphic sorcery is High Sorcery. Hylomorphic Sorcery is the corruption of cosmologic shape and function.
Its spell patterns are a mixture of Elemental Mana with Lunar or Holy and requires knowledge and connections to the Elemental planes unique to the Warrior Mage guild.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:32 PM CST
>>>> It's my understanding that Hylomorphic is stricly tinkering with elementals, whereas mixing mana types is High Sorcery.
Hylomorphic sorcery is a high sorcery that contains elemental mana + holy and/or lunar mana
For further reading:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Sorcery
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Hylomorphic_Sorcery_spellbook
Hylomorphic sorcery is a high sorcery that contains elemental mana + holy and/or lunar mana
For further reading:
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Sorcery
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Hylomorphic_Sorcery_spellbook
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:34 PM CST
>>Hylomorphic isn't so much mixing elements as making one element act like another.
>>-Raesh
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
>>-Raesh
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:36 PM CST
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:38 PM CST
I am pretty sure we can expand that to read:
Hylomorphic isn't so much mixing elements as <using holy or lunar mana to make> one element act like another.
Hylomorphic isn't so much mixing elements as <using holy or lunar mana to make> one element act like another.
DR-RAESH
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/02/2017 11:45 PM CST
My statement had nothing to do with HOW you achieve those ends, just what the ends are.
-Raesh
"Sometimes, I worry that I’m not the hero everyone thinks I am..." - Mistborn
-Raesh
"Sometimes, I worry that I’m not the hero everyone thinks I am..." - Mistborn
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/03/2017 12:50 AM CST
>>It's my understanding that Hylomorphic is strictly tinkering with elementals, whereas mixing mana types is High Sorcery.
Others already covered all this, but yeah, you're mixing up the "what" with the "how"
"What" are you doing? Making the elements do things they shouldn't normally be doing.
"How" are you doing it? By mixing mana types.
For example, Teleologic Sorcery allows Moon Mages to mess with "fate" in ways that they can't (and shouldn't) normally mess with it via Holy mana (to amplify how fate works) and Elemental (to undermine/destroy how fate works).
I'd definitely check out the epedia page on Teleologic Sorcery to get a sense of how Hylomorphic Sorcery may function. It's one of the most fleshed out page on how magic primary guild-based Sorcery is presented.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Teleologic_Sorcery_spellbook
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Others already covered all this, but yeah, you're mixing up the "what" with the "how"
"What" are you doing? Making the elements do things they shouldn't normally be doing.
"How" are you doing it? By mixing mana types.
For example, Teleologic Sorcery allows Moon Mages to mess with "fate" in ways that they can't (and shouldn't) normally mess with it via Holy mana (to amplify how fate works) and Elemental (to undermine/destroy how fate works).
I'd definitely check out the epedia page on Teleologic Sorcery to get a sense of how Hylomorphic Sorcery may function. It's one of the most fleshed out page on how magic primary guild-based Sorcery is presented.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Teleologic_Sorcery_spellbook
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ASHBOMB
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/03/2017 05:13 AM CST
Apologies all I misunderstood. Carry on.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
SARAGOS
Re: Hijacking the hylomorphic ignite thread.
01/11/2017 01:58 AM CST
> Think BLackfire for a moment. Blackfire isn't actual fire-fire, and it isn't ice fire either, it's a supped up megafire with insanely dangerous, unnatural properties because someone from ye olde Fire Cabal had the bright idea to see how far the dial goes past 10.
This actually had me laughing out loud. It's totally perfect - Elemental magic researchers are now forever in my head in metal bands. Each Warrior Mage must confront this and ask him or herself... which band am I in?
Clearly, the blackfire guys were in the kind of band where they produce amazing music, but you'd be absolutely shocked if they live til 30.
- Saragos
This actually had me laughing out loud. It's totally perfect - Elemental magic researchers are now forever in my head in metal bands. Each Warrior Mage must confront this and ask him or herself... which band am I in?
Clearly, the blackfire guys were in the kind of band where they produce amazing music, but you'd be absolutely shocked if they live til 30.
- Saragos
