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I should make a correction - I actually only have a 40 rank gap between main weapon and tert defenses. I should proofread my posts better.
- Saragos
SARAGOS
SERBITAR
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/15/2016 08:46 PM CDT
One thing that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that the discussion so far has assumed that you are sitting in combat permanently or at least for a very long time. But depending on what skills you actually train and where you do it at, it could very well be more beneficial to lock less weapons if that means you can then leave combat and go lock a bunch of other skills that you can't train in combat. I know Saragos has worked out a regimen that allows him to train everything he wants to while in combat, but that is not possible or desirable for some guilds or players. So to really compare things like learning rates and especially TDP gain I don't think we can ignore the whole non-combat portion of training.
Eventually we all pretty much learn the optimal (or near-optimal) ways to train every skill we want our characters to work on, then it just becomes a question of what order to train them in and how to prioritize stuff to keep as many of the skills moving as possible. Purely in terms of TDPs it might make sense to just ignore TM temporarily if you trained it too high relative to your combats, opting to lock tert defenses quickly (and maybe a couple weapons) then go train crafting skills, mech lore, or whatever else while those defenses pulse down. This is especially true at lower ranks where critter rangers are very narrow and pretty much all guilds except barbarians are going to have to wait for some tert skills to rank up before moving to the next level of creature.
Eventually we all pretty much learn the optimal (or near-optimal) ways to train every skill we want our characters to work on, then it just becomes a question of what order to train them in and how to prioritize stuff to keep as many of the skills moving as possible. Purely in terms of TDPs it might make sense to just ignore TM temporarily if you trained it too high relative to your combats, opting to lock tert defenses quickly (and maybe a couple weapons) then go train crafting skills, mech lore, or whatever else while those defenses pulse down. This is especially true at lower ranks where critter rangers are very narrow and pretty much all guilds except barbarians are going to have to wait for some tert skills to rank up before moving to the next level of creature.
JULIAN
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/15/2016 09:34 PM CDT
I had a hard time following this debate.
It is never going to be to your benefit to slow your TM learning down to let your other skills catch up. TM is your strongest offensive tool by design - train so you can get the most out of it.
If you start soft-capping TM and it cuts into your other training, take 5 minutes to go to a harder hunting area and train TM there, then go back to doing what you were doing. It won't impact your other training and you'll be able to keep the TM ranks coming in.
Mazrian
It is never going to be to your benefit to slow your TM learning down to let your other skills catch up. TM is your strongest offensive tool by design - train so you can get the most out of it.
If you start soft-capping TM and it cuts into your other training, take 5 minutes to go to a harder hunting area and train TM there, then go back to doing what you were doing. It won't impact your other training and you'll be able to keep the TM ranks coming in.
Mazrian
ASHBOMB
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/15/2016 09:43 PM CDT
>>It is never going to be to your benefit to slow your TM learning down to let your other skills catch up. TM is your strongest offensive tool by design - train so you can get the most out of it.
>>If you start soft-capping TM and it cuts into your other training, take 5 minutes to go to a harder hunting area and train TM there, then go back to doing what you were doing. It won't impact your other training and you'll be able to keep the TM ranks coming in.
Basically what I said, except I put forth the option of "stop training TM to let the other stuff catch up" (which is what I do)
OP wants to always have stuff learning, even if that means.. slowing his rank gain (which I assume you do by.. not learning)
Very confusing.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
>>If you start soft-capping TM and it cuts into your other training, take 5 minutes to go to a harder hunting area and train TM there, then go back to doing what you were doing. It won't impact your other training and you'll be able to keep the TM ranks coming in.
Basically what I said, except I put forth the option of "stop training TM to let the other stuff catch up" (which is what I do)
OP wants to always have stuff learning, even if that means.. slowing his rank gain (which I assume you do by.. not learning)
Very confusing.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
SERBITAR
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/16/2016 03:54 AM CDT
>If you start soft-capping TM and it cuts into your other training, take 5 minutes to go to a harder hunting area and train TM there, then go back to doing what you were doing.
That might work for TM since you can presumably stay safely at range, but I don't see how that is a sustainable strategy in the long term for, say, melee weapons. If you can't survive at melee due to lagging defenses, it's going to be tough to train.
And the gap is only going to grow the more you train the primary skill.
If I'm being honest though, my approach is probably different than most. To me, guilds are defined not so much by their skill sets but by the unique spells and abilities that they have access to. I train my tert skills just as hard as my primary ones, and sometimes that means that my primary ones don't advance all that fast which means I circle slow. But that's OK with me.
Everyone has his or her own play style and that's the beauty of a system that is skill based rather than level based--it accommodates a multitude of perspectives.
That might work for TM since you can presumably stay safely at range, but I don't see how that is a sustainable strategy in the long term for, say, melee weapons. If you can't survive at melee due to lagging defenses, it's going to be tough to train.
And the gap is only going to grow the more you train the primary skill.
If I'm being honest though, my approach is probably different than most. To me, guilds are defined not so much by their skill sets but by the unique spells and abilities that they have access to. I train my tert skills just as hard as my primary ones, and sometimes that means that my primary ones don't advance all that fast which means I circle slow. But that's OK with me.
Everyone has his or her own play style and that's the beauty of a system that is skill based rather than level based--it accommodates a multitude of perspectives.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/16/2016 02:24 PM CDT
>That might work for TM since you can presumably stay safely at range, but I don't see how that is a sustainable strategy in the long term for, say, melee weapons. If you can't survive at melee due to lagging defenses, it's going to be tough to train.
My approach is to accept that I am going to get pretty beat up when training. I basically eat herbs constantly in the field -- that might not be as viable if and when toxicity has real affects. WMs have fewer 'get out of jail free' cards than Moon Mages, but I can lean heavily on area debilitation and nuclear crowd control options like Fortress of Ice that make it possible to train in short bursts, heal up, and drop back into combat.
I think I experience a lot more close calls this way but it's pretty fun. I recommend it especially for people who are finding DR combat is lacking challenges.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
My approach is to accept that I am going to get pretty beat up when training. I basically eat herbs constantly in the field -- that might not be as viable if and when toxicity has real affects. WMs have fewer 'get out of jail free' cards than Moon Mages, but I can lean heavily on area debilitation and nuclear crowd control options like Fortress of Ice that make it possible to train in short bursts, heal up, and drop back into combat.
I think I experience a lot more close calls this way but it's pretty fun. I recommend it especially for people who are finding DR combat is lacking challenges.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
JULIAN
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/17/2016 01:10 PM CDT
>>That might work for TM since you can presumably stay safely at range, but I don't see how that is a sustainable strategy in the long term for, say, melee weapons. If you can't survive at melee due to lagging defenses, it's going to be tough to train.<<
In the long-term the rank disparities end up being a non-issue.
Going into the mid game you'll have buffs for all your defenses and debilitation tools that can keep what you're fighting at a constant disadvantage. That is enough to smooth you through transitions so you don't have to milk a creature to the last defensive rank in order to move up. Going into the later game, creatures will have large and overlapping teaching ranges. You should be able to train your defenses, weapons, and TM on the same creature without problems.
It's only when you're fairly early in your WM's career - when you don't have all the tools, the stats, or the gear, and you're changing creatures every few days - that you really have to deal with disparities.
Or if you train lockpicking or stealth. Or want to make any money off skinning in the late game.
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=(
>>If I'm being honest though, my approach is probably different than most. To me, guilds are defined not so much by their skill sets but by the unique spells and abilities that they have access to. I train my tert skills just as hard as my primary ones, and sometimes that means that my primary ones don't advance all that fast which means I circle slow. But that's OK with me.<<
Everyone can train how they want and there's no wrong way to do it. =) But I would say if your primaries are lagging because you're focusing on your tertiaries, there is probably a way for you to change it up so you're learning your terts but your primaries are humming along. Just something to think about.
Mazrian
In the long-term the rank disparities end up being a non-issue.
Going into the mid game you'll have buffs for all your defenses and debilitation tools that can keep what you're fighting at a constant disadvantage. That is enough to smooth you through transitions so you don't have to milk a creature to the last defensive rank in order to move up. Going into the later game, creatures will have large and overlapping teaching ranges. You should be able to train your defenses, weapons, and TM on the same creature without problems.
It's only when you're fairly early in your WM's career - when you don't have all the tools, the stats, or the gear, and you're changing creatures every few days - that you really have to deal with disparities.
Or if you train lockpicking or stealth. Or want to make any money off skinning in the late game.
.
.
.
=(
>>If I'm being honest though, my approach is probably different than most. To me, guilds are defined not so much by their skill sets but by the unique spells and abilities that they have access to. I train my tert skills just as hard as my primary ones, and sometimes that means that my primary ones don't advance all that fast which means I circle slow. But that's OK with me.<<
Everyone can train how they want and there's no wrong way to do it. =) But I would say if your primaries are lagging because you're focusing on your tertiaries, there is probably a way for you to change it up so you're learning your terts but your primaries are humming along. Just something to think about.
Mazrian
SERBITAR
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/17/2016 03:57 PM CDT
>But I would say if your primaries are lagging because you're focusing on your tertiaries, there is probably a way for you to change it up so you're learning your terts but your primaries are humming along.
Well I don't actually have a WM so I'm not sure how the whole TM progression works to be truthful, but as survival prime with armor/shield tert it really isn't feasible to keep moving up every time evasion starts slowing down because I will take too much damage to make it efficient, even if its survivable. Stealth is worse in that regard. Sure I could just snipe from range and move up the creature progression super fast, but I'd rather not be a glass cannon. Plus I train way too many weapons, although that's a personal preference/obsession and not required or anything.
I'm not saying we have to milk defenses to the last rank (although I know some people do), there's definitely a point of diminishing returns once you reach a certain plateau with a mob. But I think perhaps you are underestimating the amazing buffs Warrior Mages have access to--that might be part of the difference here. Not all guilds can make up a couple hundred ranks in combat skills via buffs...
Like you said, things change at 500+ or 1000+ ranks with the huge teaching ranges those creatures have, but that's years/decades away for me and a lot of other people I'd imagine.
Well I don't actually have a WM so I'm not sure how the whole TM progression works to be truthful, but as survival prime with armor/shield tert it really isn't feasible to keep moving up every time evasion starts slowing down because I will take too much damage to make it efficient, even if its survivable. Stealth is worse in that regard. Sure I could just snipe from range and move up the creature progression super fast, but I'd rather not be a glass cannon. Plus I train way too many weapons, although that's a personal preference/obsession and not required or anything.
I'm not saying we have to milk defenses to the last rank (although I know some people do), there's definitely a point of diminishing returns once you reach a certain plateau with a mob. But I think perhaps you are underestimating the amazing buffs Warrior Mages have access to--that might be part of the difference here. Not all guilds can make up a couple hundred ranks in combat skills via buffs...
Like you said, things change at 500+ or 1000+ ranks with the huge teaching ranges those creatures have, but that's years/decades away for me and a lot of other people I'd imagine.
FRANKYFIGGS
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 09:51 AM CDT
i found I usually had an easier time moving up if I just let TM and Debil dabble learn for a couple of weeks once I hit the cap on a creature (blight ogres, gryphons, dp purifiers)
i figure a bit of time lost on TM and Debil is not a terrible thing, since once you get to the next critter on the ladder it is going to zoom right up anyways. the time with the weapons and defenses pays itself in spades, the TM training is the easy part, the tert defenses are what can make you a glass cannon or a well rounded fighter imo
just charisma...ugh...what can warmies do against charisma based spells? so far i've come up with lay ward and training charisma...lay ward im ok with...training charisma tho...yuck.
AC, but I don't know of charisma based TM (I dont know anything about charisma based spells of any form)VOI as well.
are bardic screams tm? I got beat up by a bard cant you tell.
-Munch-
i figure a bit of time lost on TM and Debil is not a terrible thing, since once you get to the next critter on the ladder it is going to zoom right up anyways. the time with the weapons and defenses pays itself in spades, the TM training is the easy part, the tert defenses are what can make you a glass cannon or a well rounded fighter imo
just charisma...ugh...what can warmies do against charisma based spells? so far i've come up with lay ward and training charisma...lay ward im ok with...training charisma tho...yuck.
AC, but I don't know of charisma based TM (I dont know anything about charisma based spells of any form)VOI as well.
are bardic screams tm? I got beat up by a bard cant you tell.
-Munch-
ILLIENA
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 10:12 AM CDT
> just charisma...ugh...what can warmies do against charisma based spells? so far i've come up with lay ward and training charisma...lay ward im ok with...training charisma tho...yuck.
Charisma doesn't play a role in any spell defense contests. It's only used on the offensive side, and that only sometimes. The only WM spell that uses it is MOA. Other than that, all WM contested spells are powered by Int, Wis and Disc.
> AC, but I don't know of charisma based TM (I dont know anything about charisma based spells of any form)VOI as well.
You're confusing TM with contested spells. They're different beasts. On the attacker's side, TM uses discipline for accuracy and Int+Wis for damage. TM is defended against like any attack, so it uses your ranks in evasion and (sometimes) shield, and the stats which modify those (Ref and Disc certainly, maybe Str for shield?).
> are bardic screams tm? I got beat up by a bard cant you tell.
I hope this was under 2.0, because 3.0 screams are a non-thing. I have a log somewhere where I use a 1750 rank scream against a ship's rat. 0 damage.
Charisma doesn't play a role in any spell defense contests. It's only used on the offensive side, and that only sometimes. The only WM spell that uses it is MOA. Other than that, all WM contested spells are powered by Int, Wis and Disc.
> AC, but I don't know of charisma based TM (I dont know anything about charisma based spells of any form)VOI as well.
You're confusing TM with contested spells. They're different beasts. On the attacker's side, TM uses discipline for accuracy and Int+Wis for damage. TM is defended against like any attack, so it uses your ranks in evasion and (sometimes) shield, and the stats which modify those (Ref and Disc certainly, maybe Str for shield?).
> are bardic screams tm? I got beat up by a bard cant you tell.
I hope this was under 2.0, because 3.0 screams are a non-thing. I have a log somewhere where I use a 1750 rank scream against a ship's rat. 0 damage.
DERIUM
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 10:17 AM CDT
> I hope this was under 2.0, because 3.0 screams are a non-thing. I have a log somewhere where I use a 1750 rank scream against a ship's rat. 0 damage.
Scream concussive is a non-thing other than an occasional training tool. It will always do 1/34 damage now.
Scream havoc and scream defiance are definitely things. I know that's probably not what you were referring to, but they're really that good. Havoc is not TM. I think it was planned to be rolled into a debil spell.
ILLIENA
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 10:18 AM CDT
> Charisma doesn't play a role in any spell defense contests. It's only used on the offensive side, and that only sometimes.
That said, if you need help defending against the majority of charisma-powered attacks, you could get your hands on a Redeemer's Pride scroll. It will help with all Charm attacks, all Fear attacks, and 40% of all Spirit attacks.
That said, if you need help defending against the majority of charisma-powered attacks, you could get your hands on a Redeemer's Pride scroll. It will help with all Charm attacks, all Fear attacks, and 40% of all Spirit attacks.
ILLIENA
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 10:20 AM CDT
> Scream havoc and scream defiance are definitely things. I know that's probably not what you were referring to, but they're really that good. Havoc is not TM. I think it was planned to be rolled into a debil spell.
True, I meant Concussive. Defiance is wonderful, although as a self-buff it's not a thing that needs defending against. Havoc... the only use I've found for it is when your own Naga turns on you.
True, I meant Concussive. Defiance is wonderful, although as a self-buff it's not a thing that needs defending against. Havoc... the only use I've found for it is when your own Naga turns on you.
DERIUM
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 10:37 AM CDT
> True, I meant Concussive. Defiance is wonderful, although as a self-buff it's not a thing that needs defending against. Havoc... the only use I've found for it is when your own Naga turns on you.
Kind of off topic, kind of not, but I find it useful when flattening out an opponent right before casting a TM spell. Prep, target, havoc, cast.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 11:32 AM CDT
Stat contests are just a hole in your defenses as a WM. On the upside, Lay Ward is possibly overpowered for now.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
JULIAN
Re: Spell suggestions for a returning player?
10/18/2016 01:02 PM CDT
>>Stat contests are just a hole in your defenses as a WM
This is the answer.
Mazrian
This is the answer.
Mazrian
