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When do you feel like you have to be capped? Just when dealing with barriers or doing dispels?
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
DR-RAESH
DBABIASH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 12:29 PM CST
>>Your point is taken on how important it can be at times to make certain your capped... and that may not be a good thing overall.
>>Anyone else have input on this?
Well, if there was only a difficulty modifier, wouldn't that mean that at 1100 ranks, the local elemental effects are completely irrelevant?
>>Anyone else have input on this?
Well, if there was only a difficulty modifier, wouldn't that mean that at 1100 ranks, the local elemental effects are completely irrelevant?
JULIAN
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 12:37 PM CST
Hmm.
Buffing.
Using Debil/TM in PvP, because I don't know what numbers my target is working with, they probably have barriers, I want max effect, etc.
Doing dispels.
Any time I'm training magic, because exp.
In PvP especially it's really hard to gauge when less then capped is going to do the job, you'd almost always rather have more time to work with than less, etc.
Mazrian
Buffing.
Using Debil/TM in PvP, because I don't know what numbers my target is working with, they probably have barriers, I want max effect, etc.
Doing dispels.
Any time I'm training magic, because exp.
In PvP especially it's really hard to gauge when less then capped is going to do the job, you'd almost always rather have more time to work with than less, etc.
Mazrian
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 12:43 PM CST
>>Well, if there was only a difficulty modifier, wouldn't that mean that at 1100 ranks, the local elemental effects are completely irrelevant?
For the most part, yes.
Which is why I added the mana modifiers in to start with.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
For the most part, yes.
Which is why I added the mana modifiers in to start with.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 12:45 PM CST
For almost all of the reasons you listed a 95% case isn't going to differ significantly from a 100% cast.
Unless the spell has bonus triggered effect at max cast or we're dealing with contested Integrity where, literally, every point could be the difference between total failure and success (I'm not entirely happy with how Integrity barriers work right now, no sir.) those last few points just aren't going to make a very real difference.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Unless the spell has bonus triggered effect at max cast or we're dealing with contested Integrity where, literally, every point could be the difference between total failure and success (I'm not entirely happy with how Integrity barriers work right now, no sir.) those last few points just aren't going to make a very real difference.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
DBABIASH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 12:59 PM CST
What if the modifier was on the attunement side instead of the casting side? A 100 mana capped spell is a 100 mana capped spell, but depending on the bonus/penalty, it could use more or less of your attunement?
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 01:09 PM CST
>>What if the modifier was on the attunement side instead of the casting side? A 100 mana capped spell is a 100 mana capped spell, but depending on the bonus/penalty, it could use more or less of your attunement?
While technically possible I'm not yet ready to do down that path for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that held mana and cambrinth don't suffer the inefficiency penalties, which is something I should fix.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
While technically possible I'm not yet ready to do down that path for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that held mana and cambrinth don't suffer the inefficiency penalties, which is something I should fix.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
JULIAN
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 01:44 PM CST
>>Unless the spell has bonus triggered effect at max cast or we're dealing with contested Integrity where, literally, every point could be the difference between total failure and success (I'm not entirely happy with how Integrity barriers work right now, no sir.) those last few points just aren't going to make a very real difference.<<
That's good to know. I can't see numbers so it's easy to have the intuition that every point matters. Or that even if it only matters a little bit, that little bit made the difference, etc. As an aside,
Maybe numerically it wouldn't be that bad then, and I'm too salty about barriers.
It still feels kind of clunky, though. Even if it doesn't matter that much, is there maybe a more elegant way to express the idea that the elements are impacting things? I feel like half the time I'm going to notice the elements are favorable because I'm getting nerve damage from having extra held mana hanging around, and most of the time I'm not going to notice they're unfavorable until I start backfiring my casts or I'm sparring at the wrong time or etc.
Mazrian
That's good to know. I can't see numbers so it's easy to have the intuition that every point matters. Or that even if it only matters a little bit, that little bit made the difference, etc. As an aside,
Maybe numerically it wouldn't be that bad then, and I'm too salty about barriers.
It still feels kind of clunky, though. Even if it doesn't matter that much, is there maybe a more elegant way to express the idea that the elements are impacting things? I feel like half the time I'm going to notice the elements are favorable because I'm getting nerve damage from having extra held mana hanging around, and most of the time I'm not going to notice they're unfavorable until I start backfiring my casts or I'm sparring at the wrong time or etc.
Mazrian
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 01:51 PM CST
Let me think about it awhile. I feel like all three proposals currently on board have some flaws.
Difficulty you eventually outgrow and it's problematic until that point to know consistently what you can do.
Mana you don't outgrow but makes casting at the higher end of the curve problematic.
Directly changing the efficiency of mana isn't very visible (and coherently doesn't play nice with cambrinth or held mana.)
I could possibly fiddle directly with the overall spell potency so the mana and difficulty remained constant but the output changed. The problem here is it would be subtle and I can make capped spells more potent so this becomes a pure downside mechanic.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Difficulty you eventually outgrow and it's problematic until that point to know consistently what you can do.
Mana you don't outgrow but makes casting at the higher end of the curve problematic.
Directly changing the efficiency of mana isn't very visible (and coherently doesn't play nice with cambrinth or held mana.)
I could possibly fiddle directly with the overall spell potency so the mana and difficulty remained constant but the output changed. The problem here is it would be subtle and I can make capped spells more potent so this becomes a pure downside mechanic.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
TEVESHSZAT
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 02:15 PM CST
Not a war mage but I know calibrating my "personal cap" to use when training magic is always something that I found difficult (especially when factoring in symbiosis), so I'd imagine that if I had to recalibrate depending on various elemental factors I'd be very frustrated.
Maybe the room-based modifiers could improve/degrade the results of the spell post-casting? In other words, a good fire room could turn a fireball cast at 50 to a fireball cast at 55, while a bad fire room could turn a fireball cast at 50 to a fireball cast at 45.
The downside to this idea I'm 100% spitballing here is that it might create situations where someone casting at a spell cap doesn't benefit from a "good" room, but would still be penalized from a "bad" room. I don't know if the "yeah but you don't have to cast at cap in a good room" is a good enough selling point to offset that.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Maybe the room-based modifiers could improve/degrade the results of the spell post-casting? In other words, a good fire room could turn a fireball cast at 50 to a fireball cast at 55, while a bad fire room could turn a fireball cast at 50 to a fireball cast at 45.
The downside to this idea I'm 100% spitballing here is that it might create situations where someone casting at a spell cap doesn't benefit from a "good" room, but would still be penalized from a "bad" room. I don't know if the "yeah but you don't have to cast at cap in a good room" is a good enough selling point to offset that.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 02:23 PM CST
>>The downside to this idea I'm 100% spitballing here is that it might create situations where someone casting at a spell cap doesn't benefit from a "good" room, but would still be penalized from a "bad" room. I don't know if the "yeah but you don't have to cast at cap in a good room" is a good enough selling point to offset that.
That's exactly the problem with this system.
It works fine in the middle of the range, but at the bottom of the casting range it means penalties don't matter and at the top of the range it means the bonus doesn't matter (And what's worse, you can't compensate for the penalties if the conditions are unfavorable).
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
That's exactly the problem with this system.
It works fine in the middle of the range, but at the bottom of the casting range it means penalties don't matter and at the top of the range it means the bonus doesn't matter (And what's worse, you can't compensate for the penalties if the conditions are unfavorable).
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 02:36 PM CST
The old maba cost adjustments made sense in a world where spells coat 12 mana.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 02:39 PM CST
The old mana cost adjustments only applied to difficulty and not mana.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
ASTARIN2
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 03:06 PM CST
Estimating personal cap or near-cap is already enough of a headache, so I would vote for any proposal other than a change to spell difficulty. Changing mana seems or spell potency seem like the better options. Players already capping their spells can, at least, cast a little under cap in optimal conditions to save attunement, and everyone else benefits from positive conditions.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 03:11 PM CST
>>It works fine in the middle of the range, but at the bottom of the casting range it means penalties don't matter and at the top of the range it means the bonus doesn't matter (And what's worse, you can't compensate for the penalties if the conditions are unfavorable).
Maybe casting at spell cap in "good" rooms could pay that excess mana back after the fact (not sure if that makes sense, lore-wise), or go toward elemental charge (once again not sure if this makes sense, lore wise).
For not being able to address potential penalties faced when casting at cap, could that also be offset by doing... something something something involving stored elemental charge? Like if a bad earth room causes you to cast an earth spell at 90% quality even when casting at cap, maybe you could something-something-something X earth charges to break past that limitation, similar to how symbiosis works?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Maybe casting at spell cap in "good" rooms could pay that excess mana back after the fact (not sure if that makes sense, lore-wise), or go toward elemental charge (once again not sure if this makes sense, lore wise).
For not being able to address potential penalties faced when casting at cap, could that also be offset by doing... something something something involving stored elemental charge? Like if a bad earth room causes you to cast an earth spell at 90% quality even when casting at cap, maybe you could something-something-something X earth charges to break past that limitation, similar to how symbiosis works?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GABRIEL4
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 04:29 PM CST
For insight into this you may want to delve into the ranger folders to ask how they deal with it, like it, or wish it was different. Also to a much lesser extent the Cleric folders, as well. Both guilds have variable mana caps based on certain factors. Rangers have an environmental wilderness modifier to their personal mana caps, which is essentially the same situation here. Higher wilderness equals higher personal caps and lower equals lower. They even have some spells that can't be cast at all at certain wilderness levels. Clerics have a much more static personal cap modifier from immortal alignment and also a more controlled modifier from their Sanctify Pattern spell. Possibly devotion as well, although that might just be an Attunement cost thing.
PRIMEQ
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 08:08 PM CST
So I played around with it a little in Test. My first impression is that it's wonderful to have that extra flavor. It feels like you are slotted into a world no one else sees, which I love. (Part of why I love Moon Mages too.)
That said, having read over Mazrian's concerns, I'd have to say I share them. Elemental conditions change per room, might fluctuate reasonably quickly with weather, and checking on them takes a fair chunk of RT. If I were running around after someone in PVP, even if I were just checking on a single element every time I changed rooms, it would get annoying quickly. We already have to check mana as well. Similarly I imagine I'd have to check periodically in combat in certain cases.
I DO like the idea that someone who really gets to know an element would have a strong sense of whether that element is in favor at that moment and location. I just also worry that it might ultimately be a finicky thing that wastes some mana even for very powerful mages.
I like the "taking directly from attunement" suggestion, although I wonder about it taking a bit too much out of the hands of the player.
Another thing I'd like to suggest is a message with each cast (perhaps a toggle for it). Something like, "the favorable conditions for Fire enhance your spell!" That way it would be easy to spot and course correct.
Finally, I was wondering why checking the elemental conditions doesn't teach something like Attunement. I mean, I do kind of get why not, but at the same time it would be nice to have some other reward for the long RT, and to have other options for training.
- Navesi
That said, having read over Mazrian's concerns, I'd have to say I share them. Elemental conditions change per room, might fluctuate reasonably quickly with weather, and checking on them takes a fair chunk of RT. If I were running around after someone in PVP, even if I were just checking on a single element every time I changed rooms, it would get annoying quickly. We already have to check mana as well. Similarly I imagine I'd have to check periodically in combat in certain cases.
I DO like the idea that someone who really gets to know an element would have a strong sense of whether that element is in favor at that moment and location. I just also worry that it might ultimately be a finicky thing that wastes some mana even for very powerful mages.
I like the "taking directly from attunement" suggestion, although I wonder about it taking a bit too much out of the hands of the player.
Another thing I'd like to suggest is a message with each cast (perhaps a toggle for it). Something like, "the favorable conditions for Fire enhance your spell!" That way it would be easy to spot and course correct.
Finally, I was wondering why checking the elemental conditions doesn't teach something like Attunement. I mean, I do kind of get why not, but at the same time it would be nice to have some other reward for the long RT, and to have other options for training.
- Navesi
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/07/2016 09:12 PM CST
>>Finally, I was wondering why checking the elemental conditions doesn't teach something like Attunement. I mean, I do kind of get why not, but at the same time it would be nice to have some other reward for the long RT, and to have other options for training.
I specifically didn't add exp to the task since I didn't want to create another version of powerwalking or encourage people to check them just for the sake of checking.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
I specifically didn't add exp to the task since I didn't want to create another version of powerwalking or encourage people to check them just for the sake of checking.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
BINU
Re: My OCD is happy
03/10/2016 05:20 AM CST
<<I specifically didn't add exp to the task since I didn't want to create another version of powerwalking or encourage people to check them just for the sake of checking.
Then reduce the roundtime maybe?
Does this new system make it possible to cast things like Lightning Bolt or Tremor indoors/underground?
Then reduce the roundtime maybe?
Does this new system make it possible to cast things like Lightning Bolt or Tremor indoors/underground?
DR-RAESH
Re: My OCD is happy
03/10/2016 05:23 AM CST
>>Then reduce the roundtime maybe?
The roundtime is short if you only check one of them.
If you check all it sums up the round time for checking all six individually. You shouldn't need to check all very frequently once you get the hang of the system.
>>Does this new system make it possible to cast things like Lightning Bolt or Tremor indoors/underground?
It doesn't interact with that in any way.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
The roundtime is short if you only check one of them.
If you check all it sums up the round time for checking all six individually. You shouldn't need to check all very frequently once you get the hang of the system.
>>Does this new system make it possible to cast things like Lightning Bolt or Tremor indoors/underground?
It doesn't interact with that in any way.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
