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Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/14/2016 09:19 PM CST
A new spell is on general preview as of tonight. The spell is named Electrostatic Eddy, it's in the Electricity book, it's a cyclic Advanced AoE Debilitation spell. It is Magic vs Fortitude. It requires Arc Light and three slots. It does nerve damage to targets, and has a chance to unhide targets hit with it. The chance increases with the target's nerve damage.

Knowledge of the metaspell Quick Infusions will now allow you to PULL an Elemental Weapon to increase its density (to a max of 6) and PUSH an Elemental Weapon to decrease its density (to a min of 4). Because there are really only three options (density 4, 5, or 6) I decided not to require the Weapon Acumen technique.

Javac
That one guy

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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/14/2016 10:49 PM CST


I'm curious how this can be labeled as a debilitation spell when its main effect is causing nerve damage. Only one other debilitation spell causes any type of damage whatsoever (MB) but its not its main focus. Wouldn't it be viewed more as a TM spell and also be more inline with current structure. (Guild with most aoe and cyclic aoe tm spells already)
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/14/2016 11:21 PM CST
>>I'm curious how this can be labeled as a debilitation spell when its main effect is causing nerve damage.

The ancient and venerable TM Doctrine stated that anything that could directly kill the target had to be on the TM system. Nerve damage (non-fatal) and damage capped below bleeding could remain off it.

Some spells were at the top up for this treatment (Branch Break and Ice Patch come to mind), but that did not happen for Reasons That Bear Not Repeating.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/14/2016 11:53 PM CST
I prefer it as debilitation. Thanks to all of the GMs involved who made this happen! Hooray for Javac and Armifer, and anyone else who helped out!
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 12:09 AM CST
Pretty cool looking spell. Both in what it does and how it looks in the room view.

Also here: WM who is surrounded by an electric storm.

The strong smell of ozone accompanies a bolt discharging through an ogre youngling.
The strong smell of ozone accompanies a bolt discharging through an ogre shooter.
The strong smell of ozone accompanies a bolt discharging through an ogre youngling.

>look youngling
You see an ogre youngling.
The ogre youngling has difficulty controlling actions.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 08:29 AM CST
I would assume that "difficulty controlling actions" would be a fairly large debuff to the creature in question, both offensively and defensively. Is that correct? If not, what does nerve damage affect?
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 08:59 AM CST
>>I would assume that "difficulty controlling actions" would be a fairly large debuff to the creature in question, both offensively and defensively. Is that correct? If not, what does nerve damage affect?<<

Evasion, Stealth, spell casting, Magic v. Will contests. Probably more I'm missing.

Mazrian
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 09:52 AM CST


>>Evasion, Stealth, spell casting, Magic v. Will contests. Probably more I'm missing.

Nerve damage penalizes each of your effective defenses (parry, evasion and shield) as well as what you mentioned. The more I see about the spell the more I just don't get it or like it. Main function is damage, for debilitation that doesn't make sense (even if its non-lethal), only debilitation spell that leaves permanent debuff (has to be healed), only debilitation spell that if it hits will eventually become its most potent version (nerve damage piling up till complete paralysis). If it just did that it would be a very powerful spell. Added in the random pulling from stealth with the more nerve damage you have and it's starting to border the obscene. All that for 3 spell slots.... and people complain about cleric debilitation.

If I'm wrong about any of these points please feel free to clarify.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 09:54 AM CST
You're sounding pretty salty.

Mazrian
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 10:04 AM CST
>>You're sounding pretty salty.

Regardless of how I sounds, all my points are valid, my tone and inflection have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 10:33 AM CST
It does seem a bit much, but that's how dev works. One guild releases one thing, till the next releases something to be even stronger than that thing and so on. Then people wonder why abilities spiral out of control so quickly.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 10:38 AM CST
It would be unseemly for me to suggest that the quality of an argument's points has to do with the perceived temperament and tone of the argument.

Yet on the other hand it would seem exceedingly obvious that my interest in engaging in a discussion with someone has everything to do with the perceived temperament and tone of the argument.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 11:02 AM CST

>>Yet on the other hand it would seem exceedingly obvious that my interest in engaging in a discussion with someone has everything to do with the perceived temperament and tone of the argument.

Usually true but lots of times is unavoidable, especially when it involves a job or any type of leadership responsibility.

Except for my last quip about clerics all the other points I put forward were for discussion because they concern me as they should anybody that would find the spell's current incarnation to be detrimental. Since it affects quite a few things.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 11:31 AM CST
It fits with how electricity has been for years and years in the game. electricity and nerve damage. The spell is confusing, noisy, potent, will get you arrested, has great functionality and totally rules.

-Munch-
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 11:32 AM CST
I don't read an argument here that doesn't reduce to 'but this isn't the way we've always done it!'

I've been advocating for years that the vectors for damage in DR have become badly shallow, this is a step in the right direction to a richer, more rock-paper-sissors schema.

As a TM spell, this would be worthlessly redundant. If I can hit you with a TM spell that only damages nerves, I'm going to throw up Rimefang and just kill you outright (while also leaving a permanent debuff until you're healed, piling up until limb destruction, and pulling from, with the added bonus of stuns).



Your search-fu is pig dung!
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 11:46 AM CST
>>Rimefang and just kill you outright (while also leaving a permanent debuff until you're healed, piling up until limb destruction, and pulling from, with the added bonus of stuns)

Which is perfectly fine for a TM spell. Though we're talking about debilitation, not TM.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 11:56 AM CST
>> Evasion, Stealth, spell casting, Magic v. Will contests. Probably more I'm missing.

Sorry, but do we know these debuff creatures in the same way? My understanding is that creatures don't have evasion, they have defense. I'm a PvE player (we don't do PvP in TF), so is the debuff as potent for a creature?
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 12:12 PM CST
>>Sorry, but do we know these debuff creatures in the same way? My understanding is that creatures don't have evasion, they have defense. I'm a PvE player (we don't do PvP in TF), so is the debuff as potent for a creature?<<

It applies to creatures, yes. I'm not sure how potent exactly or whether it's the same as for characters but I imagine it is.

Mazrian
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 12:36 PM CST
This is my assessment after spending some time with the spell.

First, it's cyclic debilitation. That's a niche previously unexplored in the Warmage spellbook, and cyclic debil is really good, so EE is likely to find its way into the spellbooks of most Warrior Mages. I'm planning on forgetting Tingle, which I never use, to get EE, which I expect to use a lot.

In PVE, EE should give a modest edge. The DF penalties from even complete paralysis don't seem to be huge but the spell will stack them up while I'm doing other things and they're enough to speed up training the weapons I sometimes have a hard time hitting with.

In PvP, EE should be really good for several reasons.

1. It's easy to buff/barrier your way into being safe from someone's TM, but hard to do the same for a Magic v. Fort contest.

2. The cyclic mechanic leaves me free to use my active casting for other things.

3. Stacking nerve damage puts the other party on a clock so they have to deal with ME and not the other way around, which is more typical for WMs.

Bringing things out of hiding isn't too shabby either, but we have several things that will do it so to me that's not as valuable.

And in all scenarios EE is complimentary to our active debilitation and TM spells. Very solid, will be chosing this spell.

Thanks for reading.

Mazrian
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 12:43 PM CST
Thanks for the summary.

EE is sort of an experiment, but I think it fits two niches in the Warrior Mage spellbook in a particularly Warrior Mage way.

The accumulating nerve damage we'll need to watch and possibly adjust (see Mental Blast for an alternative approach to nerve damage), but I'm not convinced that's necessary yet.

The anti-hide is meant to be fairly potent in a "zap them all and let Truffenyi sort it out" way. Not an elegant solution, but again we're talking Warrior Mage magic here. The usual advice to stealth-oriented characters applies: don't let your victim know you're coming.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 01:12 PM CST
Tested EE a bit vs spell casting. With a moonmage taken to complete paralysis and his discern for MB was 67 the nerve damage took him down to being able to only cast at 57. With Sear's Sense his discern was 100 and could only put 86. With potencey set at 130% this effectively made no difference with Sear's Sense. Shadowling was able to be cast at 99. Will be looking at the effects toward stealth vs the same moonmage shortly.

He has complete paralysis of the entire body.

I would think that complete paralysis would count for a bit more vs spell casting. Here's hoping the effects toward stealth make this spell worth something as nerve damage seems extremely underwhelming.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 01:14 PM CST
Debates about whatever aside, I'm also really excited by this spell! It's like Static Discharge Plus!

Except now I have to learn Arc Light. Bawww...



Your search-fu is pig dung!
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 01:29 PM CST


Have to say I like the sound of this one - I don't tend to get pulled into PvP that much, but this is something nice that will suit how I train and help me out, I'll certainly be picking it.

It reminds me of static discharge, only its cyclic, which is a good thing as I really liked that spell.

I think this is a very welcome addition to the warrior mage spell book, thank you very much.

I've only had a little play with the spell for now, but I like how it works. I'll have to clear some spell slots to be able to get this one
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 01:45 PM CST
<I would think that complete paralysis would count for a bit more vs spell casting. Here's hoping the effects toward stealth make this spell worth something as nerve damage seems extremely underwhelming.

I've never done any extensive testing, but I have found nerve damage to be very crippling for spellcasting. This being all random pvp. But not just does it hurt spellcasting, but pretty much every defense, and stealth, and stealth seemingly by a fairly large margin. Definitely not extremely underwhelming by any means. I have a hard time fully knocking somebody out with my MM and using MB, as long as they have fairly even stats I can't usually get the highest levels of nerve damage. So i'm curious on how easily this spell stacks nerve damage up, cuz for some reason even MB casts that do the lower amounts of nerve damage don't seem to stack.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 03:13 PM CST
Grounding Field attuned to electric and ES don't interact with EE at all it seems.


~Worrclan, Dwarf of the Realms-
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 03:17 PM CST
I think because nerve damage is handled differently than damage to other body parts. It doesn't have a damage type to resist or negate, but rather it just is. This is balanced by caps to max damage possible to nerves from an ability.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 03:33 PM CST
So far, I like EE. However, the towns folks do not. Spent some quality time in jail.

-Dartellum Waddle

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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 04:09 PM CST
> I have a hard time fully knocking somebody out with my MM and using MB, as long as they have fairly even stats I can't usually get the highest levels of nerve damage

Looking back my post does leave out a lot of information. First the SvS contest was not fair. By this I mean that if you added up just the attackers magic contest stats vs the defenders fortitude stats then divided them by three the result would be a difference of over 60 average stat points.

Secondly, while playing around with the moonmage trying to cast there was some backfiring going on. This contributed to the complete paralysis.

> I've never done any extensive testing, but I have found nerve damage to be very crippling for spellcasting. This being all random pvp.

Well, from what I saw earlier if you are playing a caster and get nerve damage during PvP, dropping your prep by 15 will be enough to continue casting. If your potency is set to 130% that is enough to completely mitigate nerve damage in some situations.

> But not just does it hurt spellcasting, but pretty much every defense, and stealth, and stealth seemingly by a fairly large margin. Definitely not extremely underwhelming by any means.

I stated in the post made earlier that I was only looking at nerve damage vs. spell casting. And if setting potency to 130% is enough to mitigate complete paralysis then yes I stand by my statement that the effects of nerve damage on spell casting is extremely underwhelming.

And just so the GMs know, I do like the concept of the spell Electrostatic Eddy. I also like that it is cyclic in nature and does non-lethal damage via debilitation. Many thanks to all involved bringing this spell to us.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 05:15 PM CST
<I stated in the post made earlier that I was only looking at nerve damage vs. spell casting. And if setting potency to 130% is enough to mitigate complete paralysis then yes I stand by my statement that the effects of nerve damage on spell casting is extremely underwhelming.

Well, unless i'm mistaken nerve damage used to be worse a while back. I can't see nerve damage having that huge of a significance and being fair, as it would have a huge benefit of being able to shut down a casters buffing, debil and their most potent form of damage from TM. I assume by the amount you were able to prep MB at that your MM is able to cap all your spells. I think that nerve damage as it is might be a little more detrimental in that regard to a beginning to mid level mage.

I'm just speculating at this point though, I've never even really seen the spell in action so its hard for me to have any valuable input besides my experience with nerve damage.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 10:22 PM CST
pvp viability remains to be seen. it trains debil like a monster truck crushes cars tho. like the fireball of debil. it made me want frostbite to be cyclic

-Munch-
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/15/2016 11:10 PM CST
Agreed, it is a super great at training Debil. Also, the penalty the stacking nerve damage does to offense and defense seems significant. I'm going to have to move some slots around and pick it up.

As to the density changing technique, anyone got apps on the denser (and less dense) weapons?
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/16/2016 12:54 AM CST
Anyone found a warding spell that does much against it? With ~200 more warding ranks than the caster's debilitation Electrostatic Eddy was chewing through the warding spells I tried.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/16/2016 01:08 AM CST
It's magic vs. fortitude, so I imagine Tranquility would work. I forget if Shear now works on AoE effects or not, but if it does then it should work to defend against it as well.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/16/2016 01:15 AM CST
Shear doesn't trigger stun on aoe but it did sort of block EE sometimes. Of course since EE is cyclic it wore Shear down in a few pulses. Lay Ward sort of worked. Cage of Light did nothing but I figured it was too much elemental damage to trigger.

It seemed like anti-magic warding spells weren't doing much to defend against EE but if you were able to buff fortitude stats to win the contest of course that worked best.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/16/2016 01:36 AM CST
Warding ranks vs the spell wouldn't really matter, just the potency which the warding spell was cast at I think. But i'd Hope that shear would block it, though its usually pretty lame against AOE spells sadly.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/16/2016 01:36 AM CST
<<Cage of Light did nothing but I figured it was too much elemental damage to trigger.

I don't think nerve damage abilities have a damage type, or even an attack rating. They just cause an amount of damage that's calculated based on the success of the stat contest subject to a cap on the target's total nerve damage. This would mean that damage reduction or absorption wards won't have an effect. Potency and integrity barriers should have an effect as well as abilities that protect against magic vs. and vs. fortitude stat contests, since these would impact the success of the stat contest.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/18/2016 02:31 PM CST


Two questions -

1 ) Does engagement range affect efficacy of the target?

2 ) Being an AoE, does this interact with anti-magic abilities like WORM or Shear or Swan? I imagine, being non-elemental damage (weirdly), it doesn't interact with Toad?
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/18/2016 02:40 PM CST
This passes through core mechanics to determine efficacy. So if there's an engagement range modifier, it affects EE the same way it would any other AoE debilitation spell.

Again, it passes through core mechanics for handling anti-magic wards, so it should behave the same way as any other AoE debilitation spell.

It does not pass through a core mechanic for doing damage. Chances are it's not going to be affected by Toad. I can dig into that, but no promises on how quickly that investigation will take place.

Javac
That one guy

If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/18/2016 03:06 PM CST
It seemed like if you're losing the contest on the defender side stealth is your best bet for mitigating damage from EE. Hidden and/or invisible I was only getting hit with EE half the time that someone visible was.



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Re: Electrostatic Eddy on Preview + Elemental Weapon Density 01/18/2016 04:07 PM CST
The thing that irks me is that even missle range triggers it.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
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