Aetheral Shield (Etheral shield)
Reason-
Too many spells rely on it's usage.
Condition-
Aproved.

Tingle
Reason-
Is a spell used to disarm the critter, mage may infact be a "Steel Mage" rather than an Electric/Lightning/Storm mage
Condition-
Offered.

Aegis of Granite
Reason-
Is a non offensive spell that comes in handy reguardless of element, yet takes multiple casts to operate.
Condition-
Offered.

Rising Mists
Reason-
Sub structure for spells of more than one spell, same as ES.
Condition-
Offered

<<Huh? What do you mean "multiple casts to operate"? I've always just used one

I think its like ES where casting it again extends the duration?

-Evran

Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.

If I were to lobby for specialization exception spells it would be Swirling Winds, Sure Footing and Y'ntrel Sechra. The reason simply being that as those are and forever will be among my war mages casting staples. Course, as far as that goes, so is aether lash, chain lightning and fortress of ice. As a result, my character will always be making liberal use of air, earth, water, aether and electricity, which will probably preclude his ability to specialize effectively.

However, the fact that our trademark buffs and go-to TM spells reside in different books does seem to present problems for a system that encourages you to confine your casting to a specific book.

"Hey mister GM this alignment idea sounds great! Except could you put in exceptions for all of the spells I actually use regularly? Thanks!"

---

Rev. Reene

The black panther growls, "Are you blind Tachid? Kill Caelumia."
>
Tachid says, "SHE HAS BLUE FIRE"

<<Jealous of something that's not even out yet? Go back and play in your guilds folder if you're not going to be constructive.

Actually I'm sure a lot of us were thinking the same thing... what's the point of exceptions for the most commonly used spells? It just serves to make the system nichey at best since it'd only come into play on spells that aren't cast very often.

-Evran

Crackling with unspent rage since 386AV.

My suggestion would be to learn how to spot when humor has been intertwined with a legitimate observation about the direction a thread of suggestions is taking.

Elemental alignment will be frankly meaningless if you build in exceptions to all of the spells you happen to find useful enough to cast on a regular basis. It defeats the whole purpose of the system from my perspective. If you're casting a lot of Air spells, well, maybe you should be aligned to Air?

In summary: calm down, brah.

---

Rev. Reene

The black panther growls, "Are you blind Tachid? Kill Caelumia."
>
Tachid says, "SHE HAS BLUE FIRE"

>Rising Mists; Reason- Sub structure for spells of more than one spell, same as ES.

Wait, what? Was there a change I missed? Does RM have positive spell-interactions with spells outside of Water now?

ES is a requirement for spells in not just other books, but its opposed book. Without ES you kill people with electricity that you don't intend to. Without ES you kill yourself with fire.

Punishing Electrical or Fire specialists for casting ES is obviously questionable. I don't see what that has to do with RM at all.

---

"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer

>...to keep in mind how often you're casting ES and compensate for it to maintain alignment, that's part of the cost of getting otherwise free benefits from the system. -Armifer

What. No it wasn't:

>Well first off, Ethereal Shield is automatically exempt because it's a requirement for casting spells from other elements (SD, MoF). -Wythor

---

"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer

>Mind fart on my end. I was thinking back to the Make Every Useful Warmie Spell Exempt push.

>-Armifer
><Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.

Oh that was obviously a wind mage that wanted to specialize in anything but, and a snide remark from a non war mage.

RM affects electricity and shockwave, as well as bonuses frostbite and electricity.

I did offer a second option, which will probably be thrown away just as fast as most of my suggestions.

Alignment teirs, where by spells, including ES, still change alignment, but where different spells, such as es, get a different amount of alignment shift per cast, with one being the absoulte minimum, na klar.

<<Alignment teirs, where by spells, including ES, still change alignment, but where different spells, such as es, get a different amount of alignment shift per cast, with one being the absoulte minimum, na klar.

I like this idea. Makes sense to give more weight to higher tier spells

or it could be done akin to the way moonmages align to moons

>align fire
you focus on becoming more attune to the fire elements

>align water
you've recently aligned to fire you'll have to wait X amount of time before you can change you alignment to something else.

--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com

Of all the spells in our books, Ethereal Shield is the only spell that is a required cast in order to cast spells of other elemental books (MoF, SD). That's why I excluded it -- I don't want casting options in some books limited by the unwillingness to cast spells from other books.

None of the other options you suggested meet that criteria. True, there are a lot of spells out there with unique abilities, but sacrificing some for better performance with others is a big part of what specializing is all about. Selectively casting spells from outside your specialty won't instantly tank your alignment, but it will make it harder for you to advance.

>>However, the fact that our trademark buffs and go-to TM spells reside in different books does seem to present problems for a system that encourages you to confine your casting to a specific book.

If there were no cost or sacrifice involved, there wouldn't be any benefits worth learning, and the entire system would be pointless.

I'll say it again: the alignment system will exist to reward those who already restrict the majority of their spellcasting to specific elemental books, rather than to reward powerplayers who want to be good at everything.

That's the way it's intended, and those who like to have their options open (myself included) won't be able to specialize beyond a very basic level. If you find yourself favoring a certain element because of your hunting situation, however, you may consider the option of short-term specialization which will enhance your abilities with the element you're currently using the most. Flexibility is one of this system's strengths, at least compared to the alternatives.

>>Alignment teirs, where by spells, including ES, still change alignment, but where different spells, such as es, get a different amount of alignment shift per cast, with one being the absoulte minimum, na klar.

Some spells will definitely affect alignment less than others, but I see that mostly as a function of difficulty -- the only fair way to differentiate between spells that do very different things. There's also the whole opposing/related/unrelated element factor.

>>Those sacrifices would almost certainly be a net negative. There are already abilities that hit the global caps or are as good as abilities of their type are going to get. By and large those don't have restrictions anything like what we're talking about here (or they won't once they're rewritten). I can't conceive of the Arcana abilities being allowed to be 'better than the best' in this dev environment, so what is the point of onerous restrictions?

That's a bit of a leap considering the alignment shifts haven't been established beyond a basic design principle, and none of the abilities (except the first, most basic one) have been revealed.

The alternative to the system as I've laid it out here is to completely ban the use of spells from other elemental books, or arbitrarily limit their power (can't get more than 50% power into any of them, for example) and add a timer for changing specialization to prevent abuse. I've presented my reasons for avoiding this option like the plague.


- GM Wythor

What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out

>>The alternative to the system as I've laid it out here is to completely ban the use of spells from other elemental books, or arbitrarily limit their power (can't get more than 50% power into any of them, for example) and add a timer for changing specialization to prevent abuse. I've presented my reasons for avoiding this option like the plague.<<

I can think of at least another couple of alternatives. Are you under a constraint that forces you to consider only those two possibilities?

>>I'll say it again: the alignment system will exist to reward those who already restrict the majority of their spellcasting to specific elemental books, rather than to reward powerplayers who want to be good at everything.<<

I'm not following. Who are power players? How can you tell them from 'normal' players? I would think people who severely restrict their casting choices to fit their concepts of WM RP are in an extreme minority. I can probably name all of them.


- Mazrian

The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png

>I would think people who severely restrict their casting choices to fit their concepts of WM RP are in an extreme minority. I can probably name all of them.

That sounds like a fun party game.

---

"...I am inclined to think the focus of the [Warmage's] spellbook should be ways to make things explode, to help you make things explode, or to assist your victim in exploding." -Armifer

>>I can think of at least another couple of alternatives. Are you under a constraint that forces you to consider only those two possibilities?

Only the constraint of system design that I posted earlier. Offer your alternatives. Convince me. :)

>>Who are power players?

Pretty much everyone who tries to game the system to reap the greatest reward for the least cost. Trying to work out a deal by which players enhance the damage and duration of some spells without actually giving up anything worthwhile or working for the result qualifies.

>>I would think people who severely restrict their casting choices to fit their concepts of WM RP are in an extreme minority.

There is currently no reason beyond roleplaying to limit spell choice/use. The alignment system is a method of rewarding these folks, however minor they may be, without penalizing those who choose not to. It is intended to encourage diversity without being overpowered.


- GM Wythor

What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out

<<Pretty much everyone who tries to game the system to reap the greatest reward for the least cost.

Nobody wants less reward for a given cost than they can get.

Nobody wants to pay a higher cost for a given reward than they have to.

So is everyone a power gamer?

>>The point you should try to take away from this discussion is that elemental alignment isn't going to be a system where you can be good at everything, or even good at most things. You'll have to pick and choose what you're good at, but at least you'll be able to change your mind down the road if something else catches your eye.<<

How about an organizational system like this:

The whole package consists of abilities grouped along elemental themes. They can be unique abilities that are different for each element, or a common set of abilities applied to each of the different books.

The abilities are grouped by elements, and elements are grouped in three sets of opposing elements.

Earth-Air
Fire-Water
Electricity-Aether

Each set of opposing elements is represented as an axis, and where the WM falls on each axis determines what abilities he has access to.

For example: if there are four ability tiers, a WM in the center of the Earth/Air axis would have 2 in each set. Moving to the Earth side somewhat, he'd get 3 Earth but only 1 Air. Moving to full Earth, he'd get all 4 Earth but no Air.

Moving along an axis requires performing specific rituals - somewhat like the Devotion system. The rituals might take specific components, have to be done in a particular place, take time, etc.

I think this proposal meets all the qualifications we've been talking about.

1) It's a net benefit. Everyone benefits, at the basic level, from the new system.

2) It requires meaningful trade offs. A character can't be good at everything under this system. Assuming no other restrictions, he could master 3 elements. That would come at the cost of having no special abilities in the opposing elements.

3) It rewards players who restrict their spell choices. Players who concentrate their casting in a few books can swing for the fences and master their favorite elements without losing anything - they don't cast spells from the opposing books. Players who cast spells from all the books will want to stay more evenly balanced and will not want to shoot for the higher-tier abilities.

4) A character can always go back if he's willing to put in the ritual time to shift his alignment.

With an additional benefit:

All players benefit, but players who want their mages to specialize benefit the most.

What do you think?

- Mazrian

The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png

>>What do you think?

>>1) It's a net benefit. Everyone benefits, at the basic level, from the new system.

The concepts you've set forth are solid, and somewhat similar to the organization I've been aiming for. Item number 1 above is the only problem I can see with this particular system, and it can be summed up in a question.

What are the benefits of not specializing at all?

The system you've outlined does mean that a PC must sacrifice specialization in one element to increase specialization in another element, but what is the sacrifice for specializing at all? What is the PC giving up for the specialized abilities gained?

There needs to be some benefit to remaining aloof from specialization; specialization should not be required to remain competitive. The last thing I want to see is a system intended to promote diversity making the guild even more cookie-cutter than it is now.

I'm not criticizing your ideas, just trying to convey my personal design tenets. I understand that there may be a fundamental disconnect in the way you see specialization and the way I see it. Balancing abilities against themselves is easy; balancing them against the game as a whole is hard.


- GM Wythor

What goes up
is futile --
unless it goes out

seems a while since this haseen discused so i thoug would dig it up....
It appears the benefit of not specializing is as yu said, the ability to use all of the elemnts in a ballanced way. No particular weaknes or strength when casting from any book. And should someone who plays it safe and has chosen well rouned spells really be rewarded beyond having the ability to enter a lot more situations with confidence in their casting abilities. I hate when it is storming out and my fire spells are weaker than normal, but i have to deal with it since i have never casted a water spell.

i was mor or less refeing to the snow storms and blizzards lately. it's my first winter too, i guess i'm just a summer person.