I love the look of the spells it makes me very excited to see how it will all turn out!

My only concern is that with all the speculates becoming spells (which isn't a surprise at all) that makes trader abilities look pretty boring when compared to other guild "perks". I hope that there will be some thought eventually (after a well deserved long break) to think up abilities similar to what is being looked at with Bards.

>>Makes me want to play a trader to play with rumored or long in development spells that were slated for moon mages lol.

As Raesh said in the Moon Mage category thread, both spells that we moved to Traders would have been largely redundant as Moon Mage spells, and are better suited fleshing out areas in the Trader book instead.

Frankly, I doubt either stood much chancing seeing the starlight of night if it wasn't for the move.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Not only jealous of Trader spells but also jealous that they're going to have the latest round of magic messaging since it seems to become more badass each year.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Looks awesome! Can't wait to see how the trader guild is taught to sense lunar mana and what deadly and messy mistakes can be made by casting starlight magic.

As a moon mage I'm more than happy to see those 2 moon mage spells go to the trader guild.

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Vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html

<<Harmless is a Charm vs Willpower spell that attempts to convince the target that the caster is harmless, causing the target to retreat from the caster to seek another target.>>

Just a heads up, the conceptual premise of this spell is pretty much an exact copy of the Innocence spell. It sounds like the mechanics would be a little different anyway, but you might want to put a slightly different wrapper on it. It seems strange that a Lunar spell would operate using the exact same principle as an established Life spell.

"The Innocence spell demonstrates that you are not a threat, causing opponents to turn away from advancing upon you and face another."

Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor

>>For example, you might notice a certain Necromancer spell currently lurking in the Illusion spellbook.

Two if you want to count Illusions of Grandeur, three if you're me and wanting Blood Burst to become like Explosive Dart.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>Eh, Illusions of Grandeur is a different contest and there's a couple of basic immobilization spells floating around (Halt for example. The reason I went with this spell vs a flash/bang sort of approach was actually so I didn't end up recreating Dazzle).

I know, I was just teasing and avoiding the obvious answer to what you were referencing. When first reading the list, I went "hey, sorta like HP!" and then saw the next spell and thought "haha, like looking big is the only way to be scary, PV does it better womp womp."

>>Explosive Dart isn't really Blood Burst - it has a delay before the explosion and always hits the same location as the initial attack. I actually proposed the mechanics of it when 3.0 was in development as a dazzle/steelstar replacement.

That's why I said I was wishing BLB did that! It sounds fun: I'm picturing some mob being hit by a tiny crystal dart then exploding into a giant mess a few seconds later and envying the messaging that might have, haha.

>>3 Necromancer spells

Note to self: save some slots. Got it.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Raesh, these look great. I'm so excited. :)

I have a number of smallish thoughts and questions. Let me know if you don't want any more from me.

I do think it looks awesome, as promised, although maybe slightly more bland than I was hoping for with a few -- however, I think that it will gain a lot when you've finalized names, descriptions, and messaging. And most of it is very exciting!

My main feeling is that, as a whole, it's not quite at the point of being cohesive with the theme. I do think it is very nearly there. For the cohesion, I personally would recommend one or two more "big", esoteric, awesome spells, specifically in the Fabrication book (something big having to do with crystal) and the Negotiation book (which is the least exciting of the three). There are also one or two spells that don't make as much sense to me, which I'll get to individually. Although not all spells have to fit perfectly.

Offensive power. This is my largest concern with the book. Traders are TM and Weapons tert, making them by far the weakest guild offensively. I only saw the one spell, Highlight Flaws, which increases damage potential. However, it is Debilitation -- also a tert skill, and must contest the enemy. I would really like to see some kind of Augmentation spell that increases damage potential, even if it's a costly ritual. (I suppose there's always shield bash, but that is rather limited.)

Gaps. I noticed you did a great job at filling in learning gaps. It's only missing Basic Utility and Esoteric Augmentation. I would suggest putting in at least the Basic Utility, as it might be hard for noobs to deal with Research, especially in a magic tert guild where slots are at a premium. Also you might be able to manage the Esoteric Aug, as there are plenty of Augmentation spells you could potentially bump up.

Cyclics. I saw only the one cyclic. That's fine, not everyone should be Bards. I just personally like to see a few more for flavor, and because they usually do some advanced/cool things in exchange for the constant mana-feed.

Ritual spells. Any plans for these?

Speculate coin. Any plans to replace this?

Luck spells. I take it you decided against these entirely, despite Socharis's original post? If so, too bad. The "randomly boost two skills in a skillset" suggestion would have been great for dealing with the offensive problem, as Traders who trained many weapons would have a good chance of increasing one. But maybe it's too close to prediction. Anyway, I'd like to see more luck-type spells, either in Traders or Moon Mages.

Conductive Spires. I guess I just don't understand how crystals are conductive? I know, it's magic. It just doesn't seem to fit with the other crystal spells as well because it doesn't follow as closely to RL crystal physics (that I know of -- I'm not an expert). If I'm wrong about that my mind will change completely. As an aside, I just checked out crystal conductivity, found this interesting article: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/4943/20131116/light-exposure-increases-crystals-electrical-conductivity-400-fold.htm. It talks about using crystals for "holographic memory". I wonder if there's some potential there for a spell.

Highlight Flaws. How does one use illusion to track weaknesses?

Programmed Illusion. What kinds of things will the illusions be able to do? Will they be able to do something like the Phantom Foe suggestion? (Illusory foes that take up engagement spots.)

Astral Projection. This sounds very neat. Will it also be useful long-term to keep watch over a shop?

Clarity of Thought. This will, I hope, become more exciting once Trading and Appraisal do more. Although, uh... are there plans for them to do more?

Harmless. Might be more useful to caravan travel if it's a cyclic that prevents enemy advancing, period.

>>It made me think it would be neat for advanced traders to also have a way to move items from place to place.

This is a great idea, but FYI Traders can already do this! At least, they can hire an NPC to deliver an item. More along those lines (either hireling or spell) would of course be neat and appropriate.


-- Player of Eyuve

>>Conductive Spires. I guess I just don't understand how crystals are conductive? I know, it's magic. It just doesn't seem to fit with the other crystal spells as well because it doesn't follow as closely to RL crystal physics (that I know of -- I'm not an expert).

The "crystal" used by the Fabrication book is in the same domain as the stuff that the Trabe Spire is made out of. Which is to say, wholly magical crystal that has unaccountable properties.

While it might be argued that it goes against our broad attempts to have verisimilitude with respect to physics, there's an intentional point for why this stuff is voodoo space crystal and not actual crystal-crystal.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

Maybe I just missed it, but will any spells require specific moon/moons to be up to work? Or day/night? Just curious how closely this will be to current lunar magic in that regard.

Raesh and everyone involved,

I feel like you guys really listened to us. Its not like you don't elsewhere but this presentation looks like you took more of the pros of what we as a group wanted and left a lot of the cons on the side. I see very few weak spells in that list. Can't wait to see it implemented.

In particular, let me highlight some of the spells I'm really looking forward to:

Gemstone Lives!!! :)

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Blur
Basic Augmentation (3)
The Blur spell creates illusion interference around the caster giving them a tactical edge in combat and enhancing their ability to evade attacks. (This replaces Speculate Defense)

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<3 <3 <3< <3 if this works in shops

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Astral Projection
Esoteric Utility (2)
Astral Projection is a particularly strange bit of magic that allows the caster to possess an illusionary body while leaving their physical body behind. This allows the caster to project their mind to distant places, safely explore their surroundings or remotely communicate with others.

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Clarity of Thought
Basic Augmentation (3)
Many of a Trader's duties require focus and a clear mind, all of which are offered by this spell. Practically, this enhances trading, appraisal and intelligence.

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HEEEE squeal

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Back Alley Tricks
Basic Augmentation (2) -- Scroll Only
While it's not the sort of magic any self-respecting Trader would admit to knowing, the Back Alley Tricks spell increases the caster's deftness at picking locks or pockets.

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WTB, PST

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Steady Hands
Advanced Augmentation (2)
All the skill in the world will do a crafter little good if he can't hold his hands steady, which is where this spell comes in, enhancing the caster's skill at forging and outfitting.

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--

In memory of Lisa/Martee. Passed 6/17/2013. A friend. A sister.

>>A final decision is yet to be made, but I see no problem with it coexisting with magic.

Personally I find it too gimmicky and lacking sense. Platinum coins stun more than copper? I wouldn't mind seeing it kept as a cheap trick, but not as a useful ability that doesn't fit in with the damaging/debilitating magic abilities. It would be jarring to me to be doing my awesome crystal/starlight routine in combat and then suddenly pull out a few coins.

But ultimately it's not a big deal. I suppose at least it's a benefit that it doesn't require mana.

I assume it will be updated to require Debil?

>>The spellbook has a bit of an identity crisis that we haven't quite worked out yet.

It might help if you split it into two smaller spellbooks? Negotiation and something else?

>>This was one of the spells from a player suggestion. It's basically putting a glowing neon sign on the target "HIT ME HERE FOR BONUS DAMAGE".

Oh okay, I see. But you still have to know where the weak spots are to begin with. Where does that knowledge come from?

>>It's way too early to talk about exactly what it can and can't do, but I'd like it to be able to mimic the standard races and as many creatures as I can find a technical way to implement without going insane.

Neat!

>>Astral Projection. This sounds very neat. Will it also be useful long-term to keep watch over a shop?

>>>Doubtful.

If not, will you consider some other ability for shop-watching?

>>The way I picture it is more of a reverse taunt spell.

Sure, but speaking from experience as a Moon Mage, it can be quite difficult dealing with 4 enemies in the room coming after you without a way to deal with all of them at once. I used to try Calming one by one but you can't simply Calm and then "face next" -- after the second you rotate back to the first. You actually have to do "cast first monster", "cast second monster" etc., and sometimes new ones enter the room, or current ones retreat and flee, or there are other people engaged to some, etc. It's a huge pain actually, and now that I think about it maybe I won't take Calm.

>>Trading already does a lot (Though many of it's systems are not nearly as modern as we'd like, that's more Socharis's wheelhouse).

Maybe this is my ignorance about Traders, but I can't think of many things that it does. Here's what I know:

- Increases payout of gem pouches and bundles, up to 160%.
- Decreases regular shop prices over and above Charisma(?)
- Increases payout of trading via caravans(?)

As far as I know it does NOT increase the payout of commodities trading, but I could be wrong there.

So from what I can see, it gets you more money in a couple of different ways. That's great. But it's also a little boring? Adding some other dimension to it, even if it's just a reputation thing, would make it much more exciting.

Similarly, Charisma is lackluster (I've often complained about this so I won't subject you to it again). But in particular with regards to Traders, I was sad to hear from more than one high level Trader that their Charisma does almost nothing for them and it's their lowest stat.

Here's what Cha will be doing for Traders, as far as I can tell:

- Decreases shop prices.
- Increases spirit health and defense vs. spirit attacks.
- Helps with teaching.
- Used in two Charm spells (Harmless and Illusions of Grandeur).

The addition of the Charm spells helps, but if I were choosing, I would still keep Cha pretty low unless I had a strong urge to PVP vs Clerics.


-- Player of Eyuve

Just to add another official voice to the pile, Traders will not be getting magical augmentation for shops. Additional features of shops that get developed will happen within the framework of the shop system and the lore built around it.

It's a tough balance to strike - Having interplay throughout all of the different systems is an interesting concept, but it's important not to cross the line into requiring magic to be properly effective with every system.

That's not to say that there won't be any crossover, but there definitely will not be spells that increase basic shop effectiveness. To do so would invalidate the limits put in place on shops in the first place.

--

"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.

>>You've said this before, and I still don't get it. Is it because it does something else that I'm not aware of?

Yes.

What is that? I can't say. Not because I can't, NDA-wise, but because I've crawled through so many systems in general that I just know it shows up all over the place like all the other stats so I don't really have good examples on hand (certainly not Trader specific because I haven't spent a lot of time in the depths of their code, but I'm speaking more towards general game systems).

Charisma has a bad rep for two reasons if you ask me. The first is that it's traditionally been the dump stat in countless RPGs. The second is that it tends to not wave around a giant neon flag when it's doing what it does whereas most of the physical stats people can see their value due to things like burden or "Hey, it can't hit me now", int/wis have long been known to be tied to exp and disc was considered The Uber Stat for a super long time (Even long after it no longer was).

>>Are there any plans beyond Socharis's proposed commodities system update? Either way I do support the spell existing.

I really can't speak to that but the fact is Trading, as a skill, has more to support it and more going on for it than any other guild skill in the game (arguably any other skill in the game). Do those systems make use of it properly or are just "connected to it" (Like astrology and prediction use to be)? I don't know. Are those systems very old and in need of updates? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that, as a skill, it covers a huge pile of game systems. You could argue that as Traders stand right now everything developed for their guild, ever, was development of the Trading skill (Which is part of the guild's problem...)

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Personally, as far as shops go (aside from fixing the MASSIVELY buggy shop ledgers, but I think that drove Socharis insane (or was it Zadraes?)), the only thing I'd want is to be able to get a remote SHOP STATUS, even just the first line of # of sales and value.

>Re: Charisma

If I can't tell a stat is doing anything...why should I train it?

That's an honest question.

We really need to know more than "It does...stuff".

Don't get me wrong, I've documented its potency in the Trader bonus (and it is rather potent there), and that's great for selling skins/gems. But the bonus CAPS, and it's able to be capped just off raw skill. Further-more, there's 2 very good long-term methods of training Trading that do not rely on the bonus (Or at least 1 even one IF Charisma is a "hefty" factor in the Contracts system).

The answer to that (its use in Contracts) I'm sure will be dug up when the Contract/Commodity rewrite/merge happens.

Naniaki Felyran



"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

No you aren't.

Let's not derail the thread trying to be cute.

Thanks.

Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.

>It's not like you can easily tell that gems are now selling at X% more than normal

You can't?

>because you probably don't have access to those same gem pouches.

Don't need to have the same value of gem pouches. Don't even need to sell at all, since it's based on what a gem seller offers.

If you wait long enough and get enough offers from a NPC buyer and use simple division, you can determine your bonus.

It can be...aggravating getting that last percentage point to lock the range down and determine if you've gone up or not.

Naniaki Felyran

"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"

>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear

What is Programmed Illusion suppose to do? Some sort of trader familiar?

I really think all the speculates need to just go away. Only two left will be coin and chaffer. Coin should be turned into some type of spell and chaffer should just go away(its horrible anyways).

Couple of spell ideas:

Share The Wealth -- You throw some coins on the ground to distract intelligent enemies. If contest is successful then you flee the room immediately. If it fails, it counts as a failed flee contest.

Forced Mime -- Negotiation, Advance Debilitation. If Charm vs Willpower spell is won, the target will mime its next few activities instead of actually doing them.

Abison/Rystien

How about an FA spell. Crystal fabrication that acts as bandage or splint.

Conductive Spires -- So is this meant to only be a defense against spells? Or will it work against melee stuff such as storm bull attacks and enchanted weapons?

Astral Projection -- This meant to replace Hireling messenger or will it differ in some way?

Back Alley tricks -- Why scroll only? Seems like a thing that only Imaar teaches.


Abison/Rystien

What the ... I'm late to the party here, but am I the only one who feels that traders with magic is just strange and/or inappropriate? Magic just doesn't seem like it has anything to do with what the trader's guild is all about: trading/economy. Why are traders getting magic when there are still a lot of cool trade/economy things that could be added to help flesh out the guild? I'd have thought that being able to choose your own location for a store, or more types of "stores" (Inns, maybe?) would trump giving magic to traders. Making baby steps towards a more player-run economy/government would be a really cool thing, too, and right up the trader guild's alley. Much more so than magic.

Not saying I don't appreciate the hard work that you devs have put into this (I do!) ... I'm just really confused as to the direction. Giving magic to the guild to make it more interesting kinda has the opposite effect, from where I'm sitting. Better to play into what the guild's primary function is and make the trade/economy of Elanthia more interesting, isn't it?