>>skinning<<

Acquiring something in order to make poison with it doesn't make it Thiefly. If there was a way to forage an item you could turn into poison, would the act of foraging define you as a Thief? If there was a way to keep a cobra as a pet in which you would milk some poison off of it, would that make caring for an animal (Animal Lore) define you as a Thief? I'm not saying either of those will happen, but both have been suggested, but I don't see them as defining what the core of a Thief is.

>>Now I may be remembering wrong because its been about 4 years since I was here last, but I thought it was just overall Survival that was needed.<<

Nope. You sound like you're thinking of the old Ranger reqs. Our overall survival req had always been nearly unnoticeable (I say nearly, as I'm sure someone ended up needing them at some point in time, and will try to claim I'm completely wrong and lying because a person or two needed overall survival once or twice).

>>climbing<<

Perhaps something Thiefly is planned or being developed in which climbing in city areas will be an integral requirement. This ain't a big secret. Rooftops are still going to be happening. When, I can't say, but it is not something that we've forgotten about.

>>first aid, swimming<<

You are either not understanding what requirements are about, or deliberately blinding yourself to them. I can help you with the first, but I'm not going to be pulled into arguments because of the second. The way I see requirements, and what DR seems to support, is that requirements define what the core abilities and focus of a Guild are. The basic requirements define what a basic Thief can do, and is expected by the guild-leaders to be able to accomplish.

The essence of being a Thief is not tending your wounds, or swimming in a river. There's nothing wrong with a Thief being able to do those, but it is not a defining characteristic. When you think of a Thief, does it bring to mind someone who can swim or tend wounds? Or instead, does it bring to mind someone who is sneaky, who can get around locks and traps designed to keep him/her out, who fights dirty in order to win, who notices things going on around them, who can disappear in a city, and someone who can slip away or escape from trying circumstances?

If you want to be a cookie-cutter guild, with requirements just like everyone else, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I think Thieves are much more than that, and deserve better than that.

GameMaster Risek
...
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die

umm how does this make thieves better then other guilds??? god were in troube then we will be the only guild who cant use its prime skills to circle in overalls like everyone else, cause the gm thinks we are better then that we are so sppppecial, thanks alot, because you dont see your thief as swimming it means thiefs should not be allowed to circle with swimming while every other guild in the game can even tho we are survival prime, its already hard to work 8 different skills most of which must be done in different places or need other people to help with, but now we must train the other 5 or so as optinional skills that wont count while everyone swimmin with my is circling cause of it


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

why not make us learn 4 specific ones you think define a thief then let us pick the rest, not every thief can climb better then he can swim


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

Aright...some of this I agree to, some of it I don't. Anyone ever play the Thief games? Didn't Garret have to swim to get to certain places? There is more to being a thief than lockpicking hiding and stealing. Granted first aid isn't a req we should have to worry about. If it was then what would an empath be there for? Climbing yes! I would be a lot easier if there was a window that you had to climb up to to get in instead of having to fight through the gaurds. Swimming as well is a yes. How would you break into the castle surrounded by a moat? I think some people aren't thinking things through too much. Or don't want to...

Then again maybe I'm thinking too much on it ::shrugs and wanders away::

ya can be an excellent one and never need stealing,climbing,stalking,escaping,backstab.etc

you could just wait till night pick the doors lock and take whats inside

the point is every other guild can pick it swimmin aint barbarianish either, its alot more thievish then warmiesh, and its just as thiefish to most people as climbin, yet because ven doesnt want to see like others it aint in, and since new GM loves all vens directions so he says, then were stuck as being the only guild with primary reqs that are screwed up like ours is


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

pirates stay on the boats they ain't navy seal doing recon through the water... i don't see why a pirate would need to swim. Boat vs Boat being able to swim 20 feet won't do much good cetching up with a speeding vessel. it might save ya life if you fall in but frankly you just gotta keep your head up and wait for someone to toss you a rope..


Yamcer

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"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...

You live unerwater, swimming=walking.

no walking = walking
swimming = swimming

and if swimming = walking then apparently it = climbing as well. yet merlew not underwater all time. they do walk and swim and it is a sound argument. What if the flying races come out? We gonna say they never need climbing?

reguardless if terain navigation matters for one future system thats not even here yet. Whos to say its not gonna matter for the next future one. Yes we have a GM & SGM now who wants climbing for rooftops. I'm all fine and down with that. What happens if nex't one wants swimming for sewers or aqua ducts? Then some of us can backtrain 7+ years.

terain navigation is terain navigation to honor one for the sake of a present gm's code ideas only and not the others cause a GM is not coding for them does not look sound to me. But maybe thats just me. And I can live with that. I will accept whats dished on my plate and eat it. But I can still talk about other things I think should be on my plate is all. No harm no foul in discussing things or sharing a view. I think some peoples views or quite foolish and I't cool if you think mine stinks

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What do you call a pirate who falls overboard?

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Bait

Thanks

Pomae

Any questions and/or comments can be sent to me at Mod-Pomae@Play.net, or Senior Board Moderator Redryn at DR-Redryn@Play.net, Senior Board Moderator Emony at DR-Emony@Play.net or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@Play.net

I took an informal poll here at work. Wrote down the 10 possible survivals with FA, Skinng and Swimming. I was a bit surprised since I personally dont see why FA should be a theifly req despite the arguments to the contrary.
So here it is - 10 people, understand fantasy, but know nothing of DR. Of the 10 possibles, all 10 were always selected (with the exception of BS and that was only cause the one peron who did not think it shuold be included didn't realize that BS was the actual, literal thing. Once he did, he changed his answer.)

3 people said FA, 5 people said swimming, no one said skinning.

Just some intresting numbers to throw out. My last name is NOT Gallup, so you can take this poll the way you want to.

B

"If at first you dont succeed, skyjumping may not be for you"

Half the people said swimming. Interesting.

That leads me to believe it's fairly up-in-the-air, and could be included if there was adequate reason to support its inclusion.

a) what Valcer said
b) we don't have as many choices as other guilds. not balanced




Gybrush

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Actions are thoughts expressed. Thoughts are ideas formed. Ideas are energies come together. Energies are forces released. Forces are elements existent. Elements are particles, portions of The All, the stuff of everthing.

You're of the 50% of people that doesn't, which is fine. So are one or two of the key people in charge.


Gybrush

---

Actions are thoughts expressed. Thoughts are ideas formed. Ideas are energies come together. Energies are forces released. Forces are elements existent. Elements are particles, portions of The All, the stuff of everthing.

To me it wouldn't matter if skinning or swimming could be used as one of our reqs. Its so low on the survival chart for me, skin at 224 and swim at 173. Doubt it would ever catch up to one of my top 8's. But I sure wouldn't mind if there was a KHRI SURVIVE, which gave a bonus to climb/swim ;)

all the people arguing, your all missing the point it doesnt matter if every thief sees swimmin as thiefly, personally i swim a river to get out of a town in hurry and to get to another town to do business, but thats all besides the point.

The point is we are the only other survival prime guild besides rangers, yet we are the ONLY one that can only pick skills a gm feels are a thiefy, I dont see warmies not allowed to use PM cause they are more TM and a warmie who is survival terr can use swimmin! and i cant, a barbarian isnt a swimmer yet he can pick it if he chooses, the point is every other guild gets to pick it, Thieves survival prime are certainly not LESS of swimmers then barbs and traders who can take it


Don't fear the dark, fear what hides in it.

and not every thief is a swimmer, or one to train first aide... I personally train everything, from shield to vocal.

yet by the standards of the guild you join... the big thief crest hanging on the wall... open coin purse with a hand, lockpick, and backstabing a critter.

frankly i prefer what we have over a Survival average like the rangers have... or a Gen. Magic req like all the magic guilds. Thief by definition of the word conotates stealing...

The aurguments i've seen for swimming or firs taide et.al. seems to come from thoes that the training of which would benifit that person. when you put these skills in has our top 8 think of how thiefy a person with be at 50th with:
200 first aide, 200 skinning, 170 swimming, 170 foraging, 170 perception, 170 evasion, 140 escaping, 140 climbing.....

i'm sorry but that isn't a 50th circle thief... it's a empath or ranger...


Yamcer

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"you know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My girlfriend...

>>The point is we are the only other survival prime guild besides rangers, yet we are the ONLY one that can only pick skills a gm feels are a thiefy, I dont see warmies not allowed to use PM cause they are more TM and a warmie who is survival terr can use swimmin! and i cant, a barbarian isnt a swimmer yet he can pick it if he chooses, the point is every other guild gets to pick it, Thieves survival prime are certainly not LESS of swimmers then barbs and traders who can take it

And you are the only guild who can use stealing for survivals. Rangers cannot use lockpicking I believe it is as well. In some ways it does make sense for stealing to only count for thieves, but not totally suprising for some skills not to count.

I understand why with first aid. Swimming I could see a thief using though in day to day activities, depending on what they do.

Brabs

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Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.

"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"


Ambassador Genneron, of M'riss

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[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"

<<to be perfectly honest, i don't think we should be the only guild to be able to use stealing as part of their top survival requirements. I think traders should be able to as well, and there are some very good historical IC reasons for this to be the case.>>

I would agree with this if there were ways to learn stealing through legal means.

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http://www.drtraders.net/gallery

>>The aurguments i've seen for swimming or firs taide et.al. seems to come from thoes that the training of which would benifit that person. when you put these skills in has our top 8 think of how thiefy a person with be at 50th with:
200 first aide, 200 skinning, 170 swimming, 170 foraging, 170 perception, 170 evasion, 140 escaping, 140 climbing.....


And that's why there is a strict requirement of at least 120 in stealing, hiding, lockpicking, and stalking by 50th. With a minimum of those ranks it is strongly encouraged that they are included in your top 8 survivals. If lockpicking is in there, chances are that disarming is in there too, so that's only 3 more survivals to choose that are or are not thiefly in nature.

<<The aurguments i've seen for swimming or firs taide et.al. seems to come from thoes that the training of which would benifit that person

Nope swimming is my lowest survival skill.
and my next lowest is FA and Forage
I don't need nor use any of them.

I have 9 survivals over 320 instead of 8 I got options on what ones to use to circle. I'm far in excess. I still don't need a lick of swim or FA...

KNow what I still think they should be there especially swim and its my damn lowest...

So apparently your above statment is not true! Try again!

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